Building punch speed

[Southpaw535]

afternoon peoples!
I'm pretty sure you can build punch speed by a bag as fast as you can for a certain amount of time right? If so what time intervals should you do, and should you go full force?
Thankyou
SP

[simon s]

I would suggest that going mental on the bag is not the answer.
Heavy bag work can actually make you slower if correct visualisation and footwork is not used.
Take a look at Plyomtric exercises on you-tube.
Remember speed comes from relaxation not trying to go nuts out so to speak.

[Southpaw535]

point taken that was a bad choice of words. I'll check out that video in a sec but by "go mental" I meant I've heard that you're supposed to throw jabs or straights at the bag in quick succession?

[Su lin]

Heavy bag work is pretty good in terms of being able to unleash power you wouldn't necessarily be able to on pads or sparring. Speed comes with time really- you also need to get great technique first in order to work on your speed- ie swinging your arms wildly will mean you won't be the fastest puncher. Then just starting working the speed up ,possibly lightly on the pads with a partner drilling basic combinations then getting faster, then adding another move into it.
If you do "go mental" make sure your technique doesn't go out the window- and make sure if you are working on speed you don't start to forfeit your guard either. Remember the fundamentals- guard tight and good technique.

[Southpaw535]

cheers. Think i might edit that first post, I dont mean throwing a load of haymakers at the thing.

[simon s]

I have found success using exercise bands/cords.
Throw your punches if quick succession using the bands then immediately put the bands down and punch again.
very light weights are good too, but do not lock out the arms when you punch.

[Southpaw535]

So with the weights would it be holding them and doing a sort of half jab?

[simon s]

Exactly that.
Make sure you utilize your hips when throwing punches. This will also add the effect of resistance on the legs.
We want explosive power, but with speed that can be maintained over the entire range of the technique.

[Moi]

So with the weights would it be holding them and doing a sort of half jab?

Don't punch with weights. Haven't you read the 'Not what to do section'?
Any gains are perceived and you are teaching your body to punch incorrectly as much of your muscle is holding up the weight.

The bands could work but really a good pad holder is your best bet. A double ended bag would help as well and they don't cost much.

[Southpaw535]

Nah never read it guess i ought to give it a butch. Still dont know about what speed though? I woulda thought you do it as fast as possible but i think i remember reading somewhere that if you just punch fast with no power your body gets used to punching without force behind it?

[Moi]

Bag and padwork should be as realistic as possible. You can punch hard and fast.
Remember to bring the punch back to guard as fast as you can.

[Southpaw535]

cheers everyone

[d0ugbug]

You got a punch bag yeah put some tape on it say two bits on the top your head hight in a X shape. Two ribs area, 1 around lower belly.

Done? Next...

Get a few beeps sorted (random window beeps will be fine or similar) make these 3 seconds long 1 track for head, 1 for chest and 1 for gut. Place a 15 seconds of silence after it and have them play random through the computer (so you cant pre fix the order) Hit once you get the beep. (for that area)

So now you have that sorted do it again and add 10 seconds of silence and cut some more time off etc etc

Good for speed and reaction timing

[GaryT85]

i think using resistance bands while punching the bag is great.

also you might wanna go for clapping push ups, they give a killer workout and help with punch speed :cool:

[Mitch]

...Remember to bring the punch back to guard as fast as you can.

I'm sure Moi meant this anyway, and I may be stating the glaringly obvious so forgive me if so, but bring the punch back along the path it went out.

I find that once I'm knackered*, I can still usually get my hands back to a decent guard, but they travel via a U shaped path: Punch, drop, rise back up.

Obviously doing this will just let someone follow your jab back with a good straight right over the top. Khan won one of his fights in about 30 seconds because of this; he watched the guy jab and drop then back up, jab and drop then back up, jab and drop and BOOM!

Mitch
*This obviously doesn't take very long, and in fact is often the state I arrive at class in these days.

[Southpaw535]

Thanks for the help guys. I'll stick the bag back up tomorow and get onto it.

[simon s]

In regard to the don't punch with weights reply, I would answer the following: -
Tommy Thompson who tought in proffesional boxing trainer Brendan Ingles gym and who trained Jonny Nelson (World Champion proffesional boxer), Fidel Castro (ex-british Super Middle Weight Champion) and Price Naseen Hamed, teaches in his book "Comprehensive Boxing Concepts" the use of small hands weights and the viper punch resistor.
I would also answer to Southpaw there are different types of speed.
Initiation Speed
Pereptual Speed
Mental Speed
Performance Speed
and Alteration Speed to name but a few. It is no good having quick hands if the others are not tuned.
Lastly, and this will open a can of worms, if you think that your hands are good go in the ring with a good boxer.

[locust]

One thing I was taught if you do use weights don’t actually punch anything just do very very slow motion punches in the air making absolutely sure your technique is correct, each punch should take about 15-20 sec from release back to jaw or guard position which depending on the weight your holding can make for some interesting training, but combine that with copious amounts of bag/ball work and watch em fly

[Moi]

In regard to the don't punch with weights reply, I would answer the following: -
Tommy Thompson who tought in proffesional boxing trainer Brendan Ingles gym and who trained Jonny Nelson (World Champion proffesional boxer), Fidel Castro (ex-british Super Middle Weight Champion) and Price Naseen Hamed, teaches in his book "Comprehensive Boxing Concepts" the use of small hands weights and the viper punch resistor.
I would also answer to Southpaw there are different types of speed.
Initiation Speed
Pereptual Speed
Mental Speed
Performance Speed
and Alteration Speed to name but a few. It is no good having quick hands if the others are not tuned.
Lastly, and this will open a can of worms, if you think that your hands are good go in the ring with a good boxer.

As long as they are the same weight as your gloves then I can't see the harm anything more is risking damage to your joints and teaching bad technique.
Just because this was done and is still done in some gyms doesn't make it right. It probably just means the coach is old and hasn't moved on with his style of teaching for 20+ years.

[cloudz]

The ones I use are 3lbs and they are cylinders that you hold in your hands..

Any gains are perceived and you are teaching your body to punch incorrectly as much of your muscle is holding up the weight.

You may want to re think your own criticisms of the method. If you are punching with correct technique how are you teaching your body to punch incorrectly ?

The body will utilize what it needs for what it is doing and the 'environment' it is working under. The technique should be the same with or without the weights, the weight should never be enough that it impairs technique.

As has been mentioned there are different kinds of strength. Endurance strength and the kind southpaw is looking at here - speed strength. See the descriptions of Ross Eminet. These are at least two that i think are adressed in some way by this method, how you work your drills will be the factor that most influences where your benefits will be.

You are putting more workload on certain muscles with this method, it will vary with each style of punch - a straight won't be the same as an uppercut or cross for example.

Gains are not just a perception here.. you can get stronger and faster all around technique. When you throw without any gloves your body will use what it needs, so saying that it teaches you to punch wrong is not correct.

It's like saying pull ups won't give you any gains to your speed, endurance or strength because you don't punch like that.. And that the gains are only perceived. Same principle.

Also when people tire they have a tendency to drop their hands - so it seems it might not be the worst idea to work on the endurance of the muscles that hold you hands up and keep them their huh?


Just because this was done and is still done in some gyms doesn't make it right. It probably just means the coach is old and hasn't moved on with his style of teaching for 20+ years.

What other criticism do you have ?

[cloudz]

ps. I'm not trying to convince anyone about this method or 'big it up' so to speak..

Like any exercise you need to do it as much 'the right way' as possible, and not over do it. It's just that the criticisms I hear don't particularly sway me or I think are not that big a deal, at all - not enough to put me off doing it anyway.

Treat it as a supplementary drill amongst others, or at least try it out yourself for a while before making up your mind that it's no good full stop.

[cloudz]

just wanted to add,

if you are concerned about "using the wrong muscles" you could stick to uppercuts..

Also a good way to train your all round speed is sprinting. exploding that way will help your speed.

[Yohan]

You may want to re think your own criticisms of the method. If you are punching with correct technique how are you teaching your body to punch incorrectly ?

The body will utilize what it needs for what it is doing and the 'environment' it is working under. The technique should be the same with or without the weights, the weight should never be enough that it impairs technique.

As has been mentioned there are different kinds of strength. Endurance strength and the kind southpaw is looking at here - speed strength. See the descriptions of Ross Eminet. These are at least two that i think are adressed in some way by this method, how you work your drills will be the factor that most influences where your benefits will be.

You are putting more workload on certain muscles with this method, it will vary with each style of punch - a straight won't be the same as an uppercut or cross for example.

Gains are not just a perception here.. you can get stronger and faster all around technique. When you throw without any gloves your body will use what it needs, so saying that it teaches you to punch wrong is not correct.

It's like saying pull ups won't give you any gains to your speed, endurance or strength because you don't punch like that.. And that the gains are only perceived. Same principle.

Also when people tire they have a tendency to drop their hands - so it seems it might not be the worst idea to work on the endurance of the muscles that hold you hands up and keep them their huh?

The finest criticism of this method that I've read is by that South Mantis dude who caused all the ruckus over on Bullshido (can't remember his name, he set up the fight in the parking lot with those girls). He referenced a basketball study in which they trained two groups of guys. One group trained with a regulation weight ball, the other trained with a ball with extra weight, then they did tests on shot accuracy with a normal weight ball. The result? The people who trained with the regulation weight ball ended up with less shot accuracy because their muscles had been trained to overcompensate for the added weight of the ball.

Obviously, there is no direct correlation between the studies because boxing isn't basketball and basketball isn't boxing. However, I tend to relate boxing and Martial Arts to sports more than any other method. Let's face it, there aren't the same kind of rigorous scientific studies on boxing, even though it's a big money sport. However, I think the study sheds some light on the basic activity. Both are precision activities that require accuracy.

On the other hand, the best punchers in the world train regularly with half pound weights on each hand (boxing gloves), and most proponents of the punching with weights method recommend that you use half pound or 1 pound weights at a maximum. Even though I don't really believe in the method, if I punch with boxing gloves only for a couple months, then throw on 4 oz. MMA gloves for a training session, I can really let my hands go alot faster.

[Southpaw535]

So rather than weights would it be better to just use my boxing gloves?

[cloudz]

The finest criticism of this method that I've read is by that South Mantis dude who caused all the ruckus over on Bullshido (can't remember his name, he set up the fight in the parking lot with those girls). He referenced a basketball study in which they trained two groups of guys. One group trained with a regulation weight ball, the other trained with a ball with extra weight, then they did tests on shot accuracy with a normal weight ball. The result? The people who trained with the regulation weight ball ended up with less shot accuracy because their muscles had been trained to overcompensate for the added weight of the ball.

Obviously, there is no direct correlation between the studies because boxing isn't basketball and basketball isn't boxing. However, I tend to relate boxing and Martial Arts to sports more than any other method. Let's face it, there aren't the same kind of rigorous scientific studies on boxing, even though it's a big money sport. However, I think the study sheds some light on the basic activity. Both are precision activities that require accuracy.

On the other hand, the best punchers in the world train regularly with half pound weights on each hand (boxing gloves), and most proponents of the punching with weights method recommend that you use half pound or 1 pound weights at a maximum. Even though I don't really believe in the method, if I punch with boxing gloves only for a couple months, then throw on 4 oz. MMA gloves for a training session, I can really let my hands go alot faster.
Cool, I can appreciate that.

I think that study you mentioned would have been more interesting and had more of a corrolation if the bat had been extra weighted rather than the ball.

And if you consider the boxers that were mentioned earlier using the method. One must give some credibility to them knowing if something is just a waste of time or not - or more pertinently perhaps that it was somehow impairing their technique through wrong muscle use or something like that.

[Moi]

You may want to re think your own criticisms of the method. If you are punching with correct technique how are you teaching your body to punch incorrectly ?



When you punch you do just that. All the muscles are working to get that punch where it needs to be. Once you add a heavy weight you then have to factor holding the weights up. The muscles are now having to do two things, punch and hold the weights up.

I'm sure someone in this thread will have explained it better
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68691

[Mitch]

I think that study you mentioned would have been more interesting and had more of a corrolation if the bat had been extra weighted rather than the ball.


They play a pretty weird version of basketball where you are Cloudz :)

Mitch

[cloudz]

So rather than weights would it be better to just use my boxing gloves?

If you have 16oz gloves I think it would be fine and worth a go. you may find the same thing as Yohan.

As for the weight - it's like any other kind of training, you use the tools and training mode to match your goals. Perhaps 1lbs weights are better for longer endurance type work. And a bit weightier for shorter explosive work..

The best advice I can give is don't be afraid to try things for yourself and see how you get on. If it doesn't seem to have a positive effect or just doesn't feel right for you, do something else instead.

[Yohan]

Cool, I can appreciate that.

I think that study you mentioned would have been more interesting and had more of a corrolation if the bat had been extra weighted rather than the ball.

And if you consider the boxers that were mentioned earlier using the method. One must give some credibility to them knowing if something is just a waste of time or not - or more pertinently perhaps that it was somehow impairing their technique through wrong muscle use or something like that.

I'm not discounting the fact that successful pro boxers have used the method in their training, but there is a saying about some boxers succeeding in spite of their training rather than because of their training. The unfortunate thing about sports science as it relates to boxing is that there just isn't the same kind of scientific rigor that goes into studying boxing as there are other American sports like basketball or football (american).

The success of a training method in boxing remains somewhat nebulous. Boxing trainers use all kinds of different and conflicting methods. You'll find trainers with conflicting methods who both produce champion athletes.

Oh and by the way, basketball, not baseball. I know you aren't American, so I'll let this one slide.

YouTube - Basketball NBA Crazy Dunk Compilation

[cloudz]

They play a pretty weird version of basketball where you are Cloudz :)

Mitch


woops i could have sworn he said baseball lol :)

[cloudz]

Once you add a heavy weight you then have to factor holding the weights up. The muscles are now having to do two things, punch and hold the weights up.




sure, but is that so terrible in the bigger picture? if punch the air with weights is all you did to train your boxing/ punches then i would have issues with that training regime too.

But I think you sometimes have to look at training from a wider perspective. Sure that drill may look like you are just training your punches, so it is figured that the benefits of it must/ should just pertain to your punching ability and should only be measured that way. So the outcome is - there are better more efficient ways. Iv'e heard that said many times about this training method.

Whilst I would still hold that depending how you do it it can still have functional benefits. ie. you use it the way you train it. The benefits don't necessarily have to match up that way.

Like my pull up example. Do you think boxers should stop doing pull ups because they they don't use the muscles that way to punch?

If it doesn't mess up your technique then is it so terrible that you employ muscles for holding up at the same time as using muscles for punching..?

[Moi]

TBH I don't know. I've read enough to think there may be an adverse effect, all-be-it small and a chance of serious damage to joints if you're not careful. That's enough for me to think it's not worth the risk. Other methods are available and why train punching with weights when you can just do the two things separately?

[Southpaw535]

Just tried it and personally i don't like it but admittedly the only weights I've got available are 2.2. kg so they might be a teeny bit much. I'm happier doing it with gloves, I've been using mma ones on the bag and i noticed the difference using boxing gloves.

[Yohan]

Like my pull up example. Do you think boxers should stop doing pull ups because they they don't use the muscles that way to punch?

Totally different subject. You're talking about general strength training. Don't confuse punching with weights with strength training. What you are doing is adding a variable to your skill training that may or may not have any positive affects on your skill.

[Moi]

Totally different subject. You're talking about general strength training. Don't confuse punching with weights with strength training. What you are doing is adding a variable to your skill training that may or may not have any positive affects on your skill.

You're knowledgeable when it comes to the bodies mechanics. You should have the answer I need here.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89397

[SpikeD]

The way i understood the reason not to punch with weights was due to the physics and muscle groups invloved in the punch. As in that a weight increases the amount of gravity pull on the hand whilst through the range of motion and as such the muscles used to compensate for this are not the muscles normally used to punch with. Whilst a resistance band tied behind the shoulder adds resistance from the correct plane and angle meaning the muscles used to punch are targeted. Oh and as Moi said, it can lead to hyper-extension (particularly when fatigued) which will seriously knacker your elbow at the least.

[cloudz]

TBH I don't know. I've read enough to think there may be an adverse effect, all-be-it small and a chance of serious damage to joints if you're not careful. That's enough for me to think it's not worth the risk. Other methods are available and why train punching with weights when you can just do the two things separately?

Fair point.. Personally I prefer the heavy bag, but I've recently had to take mine down from the garden (long story). I'll put it this way, whilst other methods are available, sometimes your access varies - going to classes, gyms etc. I tend to do more solo training than anything else - so, for me they can come in handy, sometimes. I know when I have a good workout with them, I'm quite satisfied.

You're talking about general strength training. Don't confuse punching with weights with strength training

Right, I was talking about general strength training. Theres all kinds of strength training. But using resistence in that way I do think qualifies as strength training here. So that brings us to a distinction between functional and general? If so, I think on one level they can be seen as subsets of eachother. It's almost an arbitrary distinction in regards strength itself. You can describe the training that way in relation to your goals, or something like that, but when it come to using strength, I think I can confuse punching with weights as being training strength in some way..

As in that a weight increases the amount of gravity pull on the hand whilst through the range of motion and as such the muscles used to compensate for this are not the muscles normally used to punch with

Right. How I understand it, and I might be wrong. Is that the muscles that hold up your frame, support your weight etc. are the stabilizers (or postural muscles), the ones you use that fire for to say push a car, lift a barbell are the phasic muscles.

If you were to just stand for example with your hands out in front of you for some time (like zhan zhuang) you'll be using mostly your postural muscles to keep you there. If you were to now add some weight to your hands, then it is a case of allowing that weight to be held up in the same way. So when you combine that with movement you have both the postural and the bigger phasic muscles both doing their thing, although the weight will have an effect on both. The effect on the phasic muscles in some ways of punching wont exactly match the movement direction in some proportion.

Now I am at odds to know if it really such a bad thing to emply them together in that way, or maybe if it can in general terms be seen as a bonus.. You know because sometimes, in fighting you might use your bodies muscles that way.