Stretching for high kicks

[Van Zandt]

The majority of questions posted on this forum seem to be regarding developing the ability to kick high. If that is your goal then you need to do two things:

1) Develop the ability to do the splits, so that your kicks are "safe".
2) Build strength in your kicking agonists (prime movers)

I will divide this post into two parts: the first will deal with what exercises to do, and the second will deal with how to arrange them in sequence and when to do them in a weekly cycle.

Part 1 - "How to"

The first part of this post will tell you what exercises to do, and how to do them. Note that I will only provide basic guidelines here. For a more indepth explanation you can visit the stickied "Beginners guide to flexibility" (Link (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85373)).

1.1 Doing the splits

Want high kicks? You need the splits, it's as simple as that. The height of your kicks is determined by your level of dynamic flexibility, however your dynamic flexibility is determined by your passive flexibility. Splits are display of your level of passive flexibility. The ability to do the splits will prevent your kicks (and also your dynamic stretches) from becoming ballistic movements. To do the splits you need to do three types of stretching:

1) Dynamic stretching.
2) Relaxed stretching.
3) Isometric stretching.

1.2 Dynamic stretching

Dynamic stretching improves your dynamic flexibility. Dynamic flexibility determines the height of your kicks. If you want high kicks then you must do dynamic stretches.

Here are some basic guidelines to doing dynamic stretches:


You must do dynamic stretches twice per day.
In the morning, you must start dynamic stretches within 15 minutes upon waking.
12 repetitions is the optimal number per set.
Increase the range and speed of movement gradually, over several sets.


Here is a video demonstrating some dynamic stretching exercises:

YouTube - Basic WuShu Kicks as Dynamic Stretches

Note that the demonstrator in the above video is a Wushu practitioner, and is holding his arms out as per the forms/kata from his art. You do not need to do this. Nor do you need to walk forwards while doing your stretches. You can even hold on to a chair if you like - if holding something for support helps you increase the height of your dynamic stretches, then do so.

1.3 Relaxed stretching

Relaxed stretching is probably the type you are most familiar with, which involves moving into a position and holding it. Relaxed stretches are beneficial because they return muscles to pre-training length, thus aiding recovery; they also augment the progress of other stretching methods.

There are three methods for doing relaxed stretches:

1) Stretch as far as comfortably possible, wait until the tension dissipates, increase the stretch, hold it, and so on. Repeat this increase/hold cycle until you reach your maximum limit. Hold the final position for 30 seconds.
2) Stretch as far as comfortably possible and hold the position for 30 seconds. Come out of the stretch, rest for 30-60 seconds, then repeat the stretch again. Continue this cycle until you reach your maximum limit.
4) Stretch as far as comfortably possible, hold the position for 2 seconds, increase the stretch, hold for 2 seconds, increase etc., until you reach your maximum limit. Hold the final position for 30 seconds.

Here are some basic guidelines to doing relaxed stretches:


You must do relaxed stretches every day for them to be effective.
Do as many sets as necessary to reach your maximum limit for the day.
Generally speaking, once per day is enough - but more won't hurt.
You do not need to warm up before doing relaxed stretches.
Experiment to find out which method works best for you.


Here are some examples of relaxed stretches:

http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/s80.jpg

http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/s89.jpg

http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/s60.jpg

http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/s62.jpg

http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/s59.jpg

http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/s55.jpg

http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/s14.jpg

http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/s28.jpg

http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/s37.jpg

These images are arranged in the optimal sequence in which to perform them. Note that there is only one stretch per muscle group - that is all you need. Aim to do all of them to promote musculoskeletal balance.

1.4 Isometric stretching

Isometric stretching is just like relaxed stretching, except you simultaneously tense the stretched muscles. The optimal positions in which to do these are the front split:

http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/i4.jpg

and the side split:

http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/i11.jpg

The process for doing isometric stretches is simple. Stretch as far as possible, tense for 5-10 seconds, relax, increase the stretch, tense, relax, increase, etc., to your maximum limit. When you've gone as far as you can go, tense the muscles for a final 30-second contraction.

Here are some basic guidelines to doing isometric stretches:


They hurt, so be ready.
Build up the tension over 3 to 5 seconds, reaching its peak by the 5th second.
Do as many sets as necessary to reach your limit for the day.
Never do them when sore.
If you hit a pleateau, tense harder, or longer, or both, and add resistance by wearing a rucksack containing weight plates.
Never do them when sore. (Yes, I put that in twice.)


1.5 Building strength for kicking

The best way to build strength in your kicking muscles (primarily the iliopsoas, tensor fascia latae and glutes) is to, well, kick! The key is to do them slowly. There isn't much to know about doing them, so here is a fantastic video for you to follow:

YouTube - Superfoot Wallace training for high kick with the chair

And that's it for the first part of the post. If you have questions, please post them below rather than PM me in case the answers are beneficial to other users. Thanks :cool:



Part 2 - "When to"

This second part of the post will teach you in what order to do your stretching and kicking exercises in a workout, and how to arrange your workouts in a weekly cycle. Not doing your exercises and workouts in the right order is one of the primary causes for lack of success.

2.1 Early morning workout

You need to do dynamic stretches twice a day. In the morning, arrange your workouts as follows:

Method 1
1) Joint rotations
2) Dynamic stretches
3) Relaxed stretches

If the dynamic stretches are causing you pain, or after five to six weeks you're still getting nowhere, try the second method.

Method 2
1) Joint rotations
2) Mild relaxed stretches (about 60-70% max stretch)
3) Dynamic stretches
4) Relaxed stretches (about 80-90% max stretch)

Do either method 1 or method 2 every day. Skip a day and you're back to square one.

2.2 Evening workout

Arrange the exercises for your evening practice as follows:

1) Joint rotations
2) General warm-up (e.g. jogging on the spot)
3) Dynamic stretches
4) Technique training
5) Speed training
6) Strength training (slow kicks go here)
7) Isometric stretches
8) Relaxed stretches
9) Cardio
10) Relaxed stretches

Some basic guidelines about the above:


Remove 4, 5, 5/6/7, or 8, as necessary.
Only do 7 and 8 if you do 6.
If you must do strength (6) and cardio (9) in the same workout, wait one hour between relaxed stretches (8) before doing cardio (9).
If you do strength (6) and the isometric and relaxed stretches that follow (7 & 8), but you take out cardio (9), you do not need to do the additional series of relaxed stretches (10).
If you do strength and cardio in the same workout, then the two sets of relaxed stretching serve different purposes. # 8 augments the progress you make in the isometric stretches, and # 10 returns muscles to their pre-training length after cardio.
When doing slow kicks as part of the strength portion of your workout, ensure you do the slow kicks before any other exercises e.g. prior to squats, deadlifts, lunges, etc.


2.3 Weekly sequence

Ideally you should follow this weekly sequence:

Day 1: Technique and speed
Day 2: Strength
Day 3: Cardio
Day 4: Rest
Day 5: Technique and speed
Day 6: Strength or cardio
Day 7: Rest

If you require more strength training, then try this weekly sequence:

Day 1: Strength
Day 2: Rest
Day 3: Strength
Day 4: Rest
Day 5: Strength
Day 6: Cardio
Day 7: Rest

If you require more cardio training, then try this weekly sequence:

Day 1: Cardio
Day 2: Rest
Day 3: Cardio
Day 4: Rest
Day 5: Strength
Day 6: Cardio
Day 7: Rest

Note that on the rest days, you can do the morning workout in the evening too. Likewise, if you simply can't be bothered doing technique/speed, strength or cardio in the evenings, just do repeat your early morning workout instead. The key is to change it up until you find a sequence that works best for you in terms of your personalised goals.

Important - whatever you choose to focus on, always do technical, speed, strength and cardio in that order, whether in a single workout or in a weekly series, i.e. strength days always come before cardio days, never cardio before strength, etc.

This is the end of part 2, and of this post. If you have any questions, please post them below.

Yours in health,

Dan

[Shaky]

This should be made a sticky, excellent post, you really do go above and beyond, you're a credit to this forum mate.

[Rajveer]

Excellent post! A quick question, the video shows Wallace doing static-active stretching, I thought that was a strength exercise right? It's just that you've got it under the section talking about slow kicks, so in your evening workout would it come under "Strength training" or "Technique training (slow kicks go here)"? Or does "Technique training" specifically refer to static-active kicking, and "Strength training" refer to other strength exercises e.g. weight training?

Oh another question, near the top you mention that "Splits are display of your level of passive flexibility", but in another thread (the leg stretcher/inner thigh one) you say that "Doing splits and other such floor stretches will not improve your kicking-specific flexibility anywhere close to what standing stretches will". So for kicking is it still necessary/beneficial to develop the ability to do the splits if you have a partner available to help you with standing stretches?

Sorry if my questions are worded confusingly, I need sleep :/

[Van Zandt]

This should be made a sticky, excellent post, you really do go above and beyond, you're a credit to this forum mate.

Thank you :cool:

A quick question, the video shows Wallace doing static-active stretching, I thought that was a strength exercise right?

Fixed for you. That's what happens when you try typing a serious post at 11.00pm with one eye shut and three glasses of whiskey in your system ;)

You're right, slow kicks are static-active stretches, which build strength. You should do them in the same workout as other strength exercises such as squats, lunges, deadlifts, etc., but do them before those exercises.

So for kicking is it still necessary/beneficial to develop the ability to do the splits if you have a partner available to help you with standing stretches?

Standing stretches will improve your kicking-specific flexibility far greater than what splits will. However, the majority of people who ask for advice don't have a partner to work with. If you have a partner, then you can crack on with standing stretches and skip on the splits. However, it should be noted that splits are still very beneficial and you will probably develop those [splits] faster than your flexibility in standing stretches (due to greater leverage giving you stronger tensions when doing isometric stretches). Personally I would do both :D

Again, it's one of those things where you have to try both and find out which one works best for you :cool:

[Mitch]

...You're right, slow kicks are static-active stretches, which build strength. You should do them in the same workout as other strength exercises such as squats, lunges, deadlifts, etc., but do them before those exercises.

Have you updated your original post to reflect this SF?

Plus, can you just quickly nip back in time and post this 3 weeks ago to save me the several hours watching Kurz' video and trying to write something coherent from it? :D

Mitch

[Van Zandt]

Have you updated your original post to reflect this SF?

Done :cool:

Plus, can you just quickly nip back in time and post this 3 weeks ago to save me the several hours watching Kurz' video and trying to write something coherent from it?

Think of it as a rite of passage ;)

[axelb]

lol, that first clip on stretching is one of the students from the club I used to teach at. I see this vid all the time in stretching questions. Was a good method of stretching and I always advised doing it with the hands on the hips to make sure you keep your hips aligned when doing straight kick stretch, the hands to the side are something to aim for when you do outer cresent or inner cresent kicks.

[Rajveer]

Fixed for you. That's what happens when you try typing a serious post at 11.00pm with one eye shut and three glasses of whiskey in your system ;)

Hah, sounds like me in a few hours time...hopefully :D

Thanks for clearing up those questions. I agree with the others this post needs to be stickied, it's like you summed up everything I've been learning the past few months in a single post :jawdrop: Excellent work, thanks!

TKDMitch: haha I love your sig :D

[Van Zandt]

Thanks for clearing up those questions. I agree with the others this post needs to be stickied, it's like you summed up everything I've been learning the past few months in a single post Excellent work, thanks!

No problems, I hope you and others find it useful. And thanks man, but it's up to the mods if it gets stickied or not.

[Alek]

Ideally you should follow this weekly sequence:

Day 1: Technique and speed
Day 2: Strength
Day 3: Cardio
Day 4: Rest
Day 5: Technique and speed
Day 6: Strength or cardio
Day 7: Rest

Can you give details for speed training and strength training?
Is it like clapping push ups and fast reps of clean and presses (etc..)
and heavy lifting as fast as possible for strength?

[Van Zandt]

Speed training is things like reaction pad work, fast kicks, etc.

Strength training is squats, deadlifts, lunges, etc., whether done fast or slow.

[Alek]

Isnt cardio supposed to reduce the gains from strength if its right after it?(I suppose maybe 24h rest is enough?)
Also : Doesnt heavylifting increase speed? why train speed seperately?
Will speed training help against hypertrophy? ( a bit unrelated)

[Van Zandt]

Isnt cardio supposed to reduce the gains from strength if its right after it?(I suppose maybe 24h rest is enough?)

If you plan your training right, then cardio won't have much of an impact on your strength gains. Some forms of cardio can even augment the gains you make in your stretching and strengthening workouts (such as running with a long stride can build flexibility). If you follow one of the three optimal weekly sequences I posted you should be ok.

Again - it's about experimenting to find the method that works for you.

Also : Doesnt heavylifting increase speed? why train speed seperately?

The speed training I was referring to was primarily developing reaction time in your strikes. The way I've found to be most effective - for both myself and people I've taught - is to try and keep speed and strength workouts separate. Try it yourself and see what happens.

Will speed training help against hypertrophy? ( a bit unrelated)

No.

[TheAngle]

Interesting post.

Some questions for dynamic stretching.

Must do them within 15 minutes of waking, 2 times a day and 12 reps is optimal.

Is there a research to back that up?

[Exether]

sooooo only do isometric if i do strength training? Pretty much all I do is stretch every day and go to martial arts 2-4 times a week. I strength train with weights about every other day but I do that at around 8 pm and I do not stretch till about 10pm. So don't do isometric? I was going to continue doing the stretch routine you told me to do and add isometric around every other day? Would that be sufficient?

thanks again :-D

[liero]

one question...

12 reps is optimal.

is that 12 reps on each side?

[GaryT85]

one question...

12 reps is optimal.

is that 12 reps on each side?

yep :cool:

[Van Zandt]

yep

You have learned well, my apprentice! :evil:

Sorry, always waited for that Emperor Palpatine moment.

[Matt B]

This is going to be the dumbest question yet (I think!)...

I understand a ballistic stretch is a swing and a dynamic a lift, but what constitutes swinging the leg? Presumably a rising straight leg (for a stretch to the front) from a legs together position, e.g. traveling c90 deg to go to waiste height is dynamic, where ballistic could start with one leg forward?

[Van Zandt]

Ballistic is any uncontrolled movement, but you're correct in your assumption that starting with your feet together will keep your stretch a dynamic one.

[Ikarus]

I'll add my vote to the "sticky this thread!" petition. Extremely helpful info. Cheers!

[Matt B]

Ballistic is any uncontrolled movement, but you're correct in your assumption that starting with your feet together will keep your stretch a dynamic one.

Good stuff. I'm a bit worried that people in the gym this evening thought i was goose stepping... :evil:

[Van Zandt]

Good stuff. I'm a bit worried that people in the gym this evening thought i was goose stepping...

:evil:

[Matt B]

The uniform and mustache probably didn't help... ;)

The one thing i am finding is tired legs when i do my morning cardio. Today wasnt helped by last nights pizza sitting a little too heavy in the stomach though!

[1998232v6]

wow, what an excellent write up

[liero]

I Do have to agree with Matt B.

I'm getting a suprising amount of DOMS from the dynamic stretching in the early morning, which I've been doing for about 9 days.

I normally do this type of stretching before class and havnt had issues before. Could it just be due to frequency/time of day?

[Knight_Errant]

Do you still do dynamic stretching twice a day on rest days?

[Matt B]

I Do have to agree with Matt B.

I'm getting a suprising amount of DOMS from the dynamic stretching in the early morning, which I've been doing for about 9 days.

I normally do this type of stretching before class and havnt had issues before. Could it just be due to frequency/time of day?

I'm not getting DOMS, just feel like I done some sort of workout on my legs. Nothing like a leg weights session though. That said I smashed my PB on my Sat morning run!

[Van Zandt]

I normally do this type of stretching before class and havnt had issues before. Could it just be due to frequency/time of day?

Dynamic stretches shouldn't cause DOMS. Give it another couple of weeks, if it's still the same then I'd suggest looking at reducing your training load in other areas.

Do you still do dynamic stretching twice a day on rest days?

Yessir.

That said I smashed my PB on my Sat morning run!

What was the distance/time?

[liero]

In retrospect its probobly the other areas that are giving me soreness, just confounded by the new stretching routine.

On rest days I only did 1 set of stretching. Should I do another one, maybe in the evening?

[GaryT85]

On rest days I only did 1 set of stretching. Should I do another one, maybe in the evening?

yep :cool:

[Matt B]

What was the distance/time?

Time was 6min 53 but no idea on the distance. Knocked 20 secnds off after weeks of going nowhere.

[Patrick Smith]

St. Superfoot.

THANKS.

[AndyT]

One thing I am finding with dynamic stretching first thing in the morning and last thing at night (followed by passive stretching) is that I am getting a very sore lower back - any ideas?

[Patrick Smith]

Is it imperative that dynamic stretches be done within 15 minutes of waking up, or is it optional to do otherwise?

I ask this because I have to do all my training in the morning, but I'm not able to wake up, do my dynamic stretching, and then do my training at the same time. At 6:45 am I wake up, but I'm not able to train until 9:00 am. What I've been doing is just waiting until 9:00 am and then doing my stretching and other training.

[Matt B]

Do as I do. Get up, stretch, breakfast and go to the gym. I then do the relaxed stretching at the end of my workout

[Van Zandt]

One thing I am finding with dynamic stretching first thing in the morning and last thing at night (followed by passive stretching) is that I am getting a very sore lower back - any ideas?

How long have you been doing them for?

Is it imperative that dynamic stretches be done within 15 minutes of waking up, or is it optional to do otherwise?

MattB puts it nicely:

Do as I do. Get up, stretch, breakfast and go to the gym. I then do the relaxed stretching at the end of my workout

[bphan002]

How importnat is it to stretch within 15 minutes of waking up? I've been doing it about 30 minutes after waking up. Also, should I still be doing dynamic stretches if I did strength training the day before and with my muscles sore? When I try to do them I notice my range is less and usually stop a little above shoulder height for the front dynamic stretch. Usually I can go above my head if I'm not sore.

[Van Zandt]

How importnat is it to stretch within 15 minutes of waking up?

Very.

Your level of muscular tension (and thus, "cold" ROM) is usually set for the rest of the day 15-20 minutes after you wake. Think of the first 15 minutes or so as the best window of opportunity for you to reset this tension to a higher level for the rest of the day.

Also, should I still be doing dynamic stretches if I did strength training the day before and with my muscles sore?

Your muscles should not be sore regularly. If they are, you're probably training too much, or too often, or both. You can still do dynamic stretches when you have DOMS - but be very careful. You might find it useful to do mild relaxed stretches beforehand (as per the instructions of my original post).

[AndyT]

How long have you been doing them for?


This is the 2nd week. I used to do dynamic stretches a lot, but normally before class, not first thing in the morning. I prolapsed two discs in my lower back some time ago - a condequence is that I think some of the supporting muscles are weaker than they should be.

A single set of 12 (front and side) gets me to full height, then passive stretching.

[Patrick Smith]

Alright. Dynamic and relaxed stretching has to be done within 15-20 minutes of waking (6:45 am). I can do that, but if I do, I have to wait until 9:00 am to do my training because of duties elsewhere.

I can't get around this problem, so if I can just warm-up for my workout, that would be great.

Thanks.

[bphan002]

Very.

Your muscles should not be sore regularly. If they are, you're probably training too much, or too often, or both. You can still do dynamic stretches when you have DOMS - but be very careful. You might find it useful to do mild relaxed stretches beforehand (as per the instructions of my original post).

Hmm.. I always thought atleast for upper body workout if your not sore the next day you did not do a good workout. Is it different for legs?

[Shaky]

Hmm.. I always thought atleast for upper body workout if your not sore the next day you did not do a good workout. Is it different for legs?

I think DOMS is more an individual thing, and how your muscle reacts to work. I have a friend that is so lazy in the gym that I won’t even go with him anymore, but he gets DOMS bad, and all over! I always have sore legs after my leg days, I do legs Sundays, and struggle to walk up and down stairs on Mondays! After chest days my chest is so burned out that I struggle to lift my own weight, but in the morning I rarely get pain, just tightness. From what I’ve read, the reason for DOMS is not yet fully understood.

[Matt B]

I#m a bit like that. Day after legs weights hurts every time. Flys make the centre of my chest a bit tender most weeks but otherwise i feel ok. Unless i try to do press ups at the end of the weight session lol. I do get DOMS in my biceps and to a greater degree triceps most weeks though. Feels great! haha

[Shaky]

I#m a bit like that. Day after legs weights hurts every time. Flys make the centre of my chest a bit tender most weeks but otherwise i feel ok. Unless i try to do press ups at the end of the weight session lol. I do get DOMS in my biceps and to a greater degree triceps most weeks though. Feels great! haha

Ye, I love the DOMS!

[Patrick Smith]

Hmm.. I always thought atleast for upper body workout if your not sore the next day you did not do a good workout. Is it different for legs?

DOM doesn't guarantee a good workout, and a good workout doesn't guarantee DOM. :cool:

[Van Zandt]

You're hitting the nail on the head more and more frequently Patrick360, proud of you mate :D

[Patrick Smith]

Thank you so much! :)

[Patrick Smith]

I don't mean to double post, but I'm not sure what I should do about it. Is it better to merge, or not?

Anyhow, I have a question for you, Superfoot. Should I go easier on stretching every other day? If so, how would I do that with dynamic stretches? Isn't it required to reach your max stretch everyday for dynamic stretches to work?

[Van Zandt]

In relaxed and dynamic stretches it's fine to push for your max every day.

[Patrick Smith]

In relaxed and dynamic stretches it's fine to push for your max every day.

Ah, good!

Superfoot, would you critique my weekend schedule, please? I do strongman training, but there aren't any exercises that specifically target the adducters. I'm planning on doing adducter flyes and reverse lunges. Do you think that's enough?

I have attached my workout schedule. Sorry for the inconvenience, but I couldn't post it because the formatting wasn't working.

In "Secrets of Stretching" by Tom Kurz, he says you only have to do one set for each direction if you're advanced. Is that right?

THANKS!

[Van Zandt]

Superfoot, would you critique my weekend schedule, please?

No probs. Do you mind if I post my response here in case the answer is beneficial to other users, or would you prefer a PM?

Do you think that's enough?

Principles for strength are the same as for flexibility. You really only need one type of exercise per muscle group, so yes that should be enough.

In "Secrets of Stretching" by Tom Kurz, he says you only have to do one set for each direction if you're advanced. Is that right?

Yes. Maintenance requires less applications than development.

[Patrick Smith]

No probs. Do you mind if I post my response here in case the answer is beneficial to other users, or would you prefer a PM?


Naw, you can post here.


Principles for strength are the same as for flexibility. You really only need one type of exercise per muscle group, so yes that should be enough.


Gute!


Yes. Maintenance requires less applications than development.


Gute!

[Knight_Errant]

I've started doing leg raises instead of samson stretches in my crossfit warmup :) It's a good way to get them done :)

[Van Zandt]

Patrick360,

Sorry I haven't had a chance to reply to your question, I'll get round to it this weekend.

[Patrick Smith]

Thanks, Superfoot.

Is it normal to be a little stiff the day after isometrics?

[Van Zandt]

Yes, if:

1) You ain't done them in a while;

2) You make a significant increase in your training load (i.e. tensing much harder/longer than before).

[Patrick Smith]

Yes, if:

1) You ain't done them in a while;

2) You make a significant increase in your training load (i.e. tensing much harder/longer than before).

Good, because I hadn't done them for a week or so, and when I did them, I tensed for 10 seconds, 10 seconds, and then extra hard for 30 seconds.

Please don't rush to critique my schedule, I'm not in a hurry. It's working pretty well for me right now.

[Van Zandt]

Patrick360,

Okay, so I finally got round to reviewing your weekly workout. Apologies for the delay! Here's what I thought:

Morning - dynamic stretches, isometric stretches, relaxed stretches.

You should take out the isometric stretches in your morning workout, especially as you plan to train later in the day. Include them in your evening workout; you don't want to do isometrics in the morning if you have a class that same evening.

Apart from that, the rest looks good :cool:

[Patrick Smith]

Thank you! :)

[Patrick Smith]

How's the book coming, Superfoot?

I've got a question about Thomas Kurz and his strength routine.

First of all, is there a way to strengthen the adductors without the shoe weights or a pull down machine? If there isn't, what are the shoe weights called? Besides shoe weights, of course... Maybe it would be wise just to get a bunch of 10lb ankle weights. Hmm?

Secondly, I do strongman training, but because I'm still building up my knees, I do 100-500 squats holding 40lbs (two 20lb dumbbells) in sets of 25 (or 50 if I feel really good ;-), instead of doing really heavy weighted squats. I figure that strength is strength, so as long as do my full body strongman training plus weighted adductor flies I should be pretty well off, right?

Thirdly, Kurz says that you shouldn't work past feeling uncomfortable. Why not?

[Van Zandt]

Mmm... so-so. Won't be released this year. I'm writing at the speed of a chapter per week. It's taken a bit of a back seat to Silat at the moment. But I'll get there in the end :cool:

[Patrick Smith]

Mmm... so-so. Won't be released this year. I'm writing at the speed of a chapter per week. It's taken a bit of a back seat to Silat at the moment. But I'll get there in the end :cool:

Oops! I added a lot of questions to my other post, but after you replied! :rolleyes:

Okay, here it is again.

I've got a lot of questions about Thomas Kurz and his Secrets of Stretching tape.

First of all, is there a way to strengthen the adductors without the shoe weights or a pull down machine? If there isn't, what are the shoe weights called? Besides shoe weights, of course... Maybe it would be wise just to get a bunch of 10lb ankle weights. Hmm?

Secondly, I do strongman training, but because I'm still building up my knees, I do 100-500 squats holding 40lbs (two 20lb dumbbells) in sets of 25 (or 50 if I feel really good ;-), instead of doing really heavy weighted squats. I figure that strength is strength, so as long as do my full body strongman training plus weighted adductor flies I should be pretty well off, right?

Thirdly, Kurz says that you shouldn't work past feeling uncomfortable. Why not?

Forthly (:rolleyes:), in Secrets of Stretching (the DVD), Kurz swings his legs when he does dynamic stretches at first, then later he does them properly... do you know why?

[Van Zandt]

First of all, is there a way to strengthen the adductors without the shoe weights or a pull down machine? If there isn't, what are the shoe weights called? Besides shoe weights, of course... Maybe it would be wise just to get a bunch of 10lb ankle weights. Hmm?

Get a length of rope, tie one end around your ankle and attach a dumbbell plate at the other. Hoist it over the top of a door and *ta da* adductor pulldowns :cool:

Can't find those weight boots anywhere.

I figure that strength is strength, so as long as do my full body strongman training plus weighted adductor flies I should be pretty well off, right?

Yes.

Thirdly, Kurz says that you shouldn't work past feeling uncomfortable. Why not?

Probably to stop you exhausting the muscles (which isn't necessary nor beneficial).

Forthly (), in Secrets of Stretching (the DVD), Kurz swings his legs when he does dynamic stretches at first, then later he does them properly... do you know why?

Define "properly"?

[Patrick Smith]

I could be wrong, but didn't you say swinging your legs in dynamic stretches is bad?

Either way, why did he do the morning and evening dynamic stretches differently?

[Van Zandt]

I could be wrong, but didn't you say swinging your legs in dynamic stretches is bad?

Ah, now I understand what you mean. Yes, you are right, it is better to lead or lift the leg rather than swing it.

Either way, why did he do the morning and evening dynamic stretches differently?

Not sure. Bad editing probably.

[Patrick Smith]

Thanks!

I just set up my own homemade adductor pull down machine and it works great!

[Van Zandt]

Cool :cool:

[Patrick Smith]

Cool :cool:

Yes, I screwed a strong pulley to the wooden base which I screwed to the ceiling. I used a lot of screws and it's very very strong, but it might be wiser to use bolts.

After this, I ran a rope through the pulley and on one end, I tied some barbell weights. I made sure the room was the right length by resting the weights on the floor and then pulling the other end of the rope halfway to the floor and then tying a loop that I could put my foot in. Then, while wearing shoes, I put my foot through the loop, took a step away from the pulley, and put one hand on a chair for balance.

After that?

Well, after that, I had FUN. :hat:

[Van Zandt]

You might want to do like I did and put something beneath the weight plates to cushion them should they fall. Trust me when I say they make a loud bang if the rope comes undone.

[Patrick Smith]

Haha, good idea.

[Van Zandt]

Hope you reach your goals Pat :cool:

[KonGato]

Knee be straight?

Hello, I have a question regarding both dynamic stretching and the side- and roundhousekick.

- Dynamic stretching: When doing the side-stretches, should the supporting legs knee be held straight or should it be slightly bent? Is it dangerous or good to keep it straight?

- Side and roundhouse-kick: At the moment of impact doing these kicks, should the supporting leg and knee be straightened or be kept slightly bent?
I have heard that if you keep the supporting leg perfectly straight you may lose some balance and power... true? What is "the truth" adn why? :)

Same question for both dynamic stretching and kicks :)

[Van Zandt]

- Dynamic stretching:When doing the side-stretches, should the supporting legs knee be held straight or should it be slightly bent? Is it dangerous or good to keep it straight?

Straight.

- Side and roundhouse-kick:At the moment of impact doing these kicks, should the supporting leg and knee be straightened or be kept slightly bent?I have heard that if you keep the supporting leg perfectly straight you may lose some balance and power... true? What is "the truth" adn why?

Straight.

[Patrick Smith]

I believe that the both legs should be straight during dynamic stretching... I think. Does it matter?

[GaryT85]

- Dynamic stretching: When doing the side-stretches, should the supporting legs knee be held straight or should it be slightly bent? Is it dangerous or good to keep it straight?


I believe that the both legs should be straight during dynamic stretching... I think. Does it matter?

i think you will find that if you do the side raise dynamic stretches with a bent supporting leg, you dont get as good a stretch..

so if your leg is straight, you will get a better stretch :cool:

(simple thinking on reason would be the tension on the muscles 'at the other end' when the leg is straigh as opposed to bent.... im sure superfoot will give a better explanation on that)

[Van Zandt]

I believe that the both legs should be straight during dynamic stretching... I think. Does it matter?

That is correct.

[Van Zandt]

i think you will find that if you do the side raise dynamic stretches with a bent supporting leg, you dont get as good a stretch..

so if your leg is straight, you will get a better stretch

(simple thinking on reason would be the tension on the muscles 'at the other end' when the leg is straigh as opposed to bent.... im sure superfoot will give a better explanation on that)

Your explanation is good enough :cool:

The scientific explanation is that your dynamic stretches should resemble your kicks as closely as possible - principle of specificity and all that - and unless you kick at full extension with bent knees, you should keep your legs straight in your dynamic stretches to improve your dynamic ROM in relation to your kicking techniques.

[KonGato]

Hello,

I have a question regarding the TIMING of relaxed stretching...

I read that when doing relaxed stretching, the "newly found flexibility" only stays that way a day or less. So, within which intervals should relaxed stretching be done; within 15, 18 hours or about 24 hours?

Maybe it doesn't matter so much? Just that you do them about the same time as previously (+/- 5 hours) ?

Edit: Reason for suddenly asking is that I did much relaxed stretching at 11 pm yesterday and today at 11 am I did my strength training. After my training I felt like doing relaxed stretching but I only did very little stretching considering it only had been 12 hours since my relaxed stretching sesson.
Did I confuse my post even further??? :)

[Van Zandt]

Try to do your stretches about the same time each day.

[Ranzan]

How will it effect you if you don't do the stretches at the same time every day?

[Fillythebish]

Wow what a resource this thread is! I wish I had seen it earlier. Thanks for putting this up.

I have a couple of questions if anyone wouldn't mind answering them.

Question 1
When going to the floor with front splits, is it ok to eventually let the leg muscles relax and "sit" in the stretch? Or should the leg muscles be kept tensed to avoid it becoming a relaxed stretch?

I currently sit in the stretch after 30 seconds tense and then lean forward over my front leg with the muslces relaxed, and put my chest on my thigh.

Question 2
When doing the dynamic stretches in the morning, would it be wise to do a few minutes warmup first? I find I can do them without the warmup, but don't want to cause future issues.

[Patrick Smith]

Wow what a resource this thread is! I wish I had seen it earlier. Thanks for putting this up.

I have a couple of questions if anyone wouldn't mind answering them.

Question 1
When going to the floor with front splits, is it ok to eventually let the leg muscles relax and "sit" in the stretch? Or should the leg muscles be kept tensed to avoid it becoming a relaxed stretch?

I currently sit in the stretch after 30 seconds tense and then lean forward over my front leg with the muslces relaxed, and put my chest on my thigh.

Question 2
When doing the dynamic stretches in the morning, would it be wise to do a few minutes warmup first? I find I can do them without the warmup, but don't want to cause future issues.

1. It depends, if you're doing relaxed stretches, I can't see anything wrong with relaxing into the stretch.

Are you asking that if you get down in an isometric front split stretch and you're far enough down to relax and just sit there, is it okay?

If so, then no, I don't think so, but it would be helpful to know how close you are to the front split just to get an idea of what position you're in.

2. YES. If I remember correctly, Thomas Kurz believes warming up before dynamic stretches is very important. It only haves to be about 5-10 minutes of joint rotations and that sort of thing.

I like to work from toe to head, so when I wake up, I rotate my ankles, shake out my legs, rotate my hips, do trunk twists, swing my arms, shake out my elbows and hands, and roll my neck. Then I usually ease into a little bit of skipping (without rope and lower intensity) and arm swinging like Tom Kurz demonstrates in his DVD (Secrets of Stretching).

I like doing this because not only does it wake me up ;), it makes me feel nice and ready to do the stretches.

Just my two cents. I'm not an expert, but I think this is what Tom Kurz teaches.

Superfoot?

[Fillythebish]

1. Are you asking that if you get down in an isometric front split stretch and you're far enough down to relax and just sit there, is it okay?

If so, then no, I don't think so, but it would be helpful to know how close you are to the front split just to get an idea of what position you're in.


Thanks for the indepth reply.

In the front splits I can reach the ground with leg outstretched infront and back leg outstretched behind, I do one with my back foot on the side (like a sidekick position), and one with the bottom of my foot facing upward (top of my foot flat on the ground).

What I will do is do isometric version and not allow my legs to relax. Then after my isometric stretches are done I'll do the isometric stretch to the floor then let the legs relax and sit into it before doing the rest of my relaxed stretches.

[Patrick Smith]

Thanks for the indepth reply.

In the front splits I can reach the ground with leg outstretched infront and back leg outstretched behind, I do one with my back foot on the side (like a sidekick position), and one with the bottom of my foot facing upward (top of my foot flat on the ground).

What I will do is do isometric version and not allow my legs to relax. Then after my isometric stretches are done I'll do the isometric stretch to the floor then let the legs relax and sit into it before doing the rest of my relaxed stretches.

Okay, I understand now. I think that's okay, but maybe you should just get up after that last isometric stretch, shake your legs out, and then go down in a relaxed stretches. If you're not experiencing any problems and you're still improving then I doubt it's a problem. You just have to listen to your body. ;)

[KonGato]

Relaxed streching twice a day?

Hi,

I haven't noticed this before but on the first page you mention that one only needs to do relaxed stretching once every day, but now I noticed that you have relaxed stretching in both the morning routine as well as the evening routine = twice a day.

I'm just curious about what is really necessary as I am working every week-day and I find it hard to spend 5 minutes (dynamic) + 15 minutes (relaxed stretching) every morning before breakfast and other morning routines.

How OK would it be to, in the morning, just do the dynamic stretching and just a little relaxed or rather none at all? I.e. instead doing proper relaxed stretching later on the day following dynamic stretching, as once per day would be enough according to other posts.

[Van Zandt]

You only need do them once per day.

I include them in both the example morning and evening workouts to show readers in which order they appear. If you do both the morning and evening workouts, skip them in the morning and just do them in the evening.

Of course, doing relaxed stretches twice per day certainly won't do you any harm. But it's up to you when to plan them according to time restrictions and other commitments in your life.

[Patrick Smith]

Superfoot, I wake up at 6:00 every morning and do dynamic and relaxed stretches (I like doing relaxed stretches in the morning and evening). Then I usually do more dynamic stretches plus my workout at around 2:00 PM and finish with relaxed stretches at 3 or 4 PM in the afternooon/evening. Should I try to do my workout a little bit later or is the timing acceptable?

[Van Zandt]

Observation is the key. As long as you aren't noticing any adverse effects of your routine (e.g. fatigue, soreness, repetitive injuries, etc.) then it should be fine. I for one always do my evening workout exactly at 8pm every night, otherwise my mind wanders and I find other stuff to do. If your schedule is working for you, then why change it?

[Patrick Smith]

I thought so, but I wanted to get a second opinion! Besides, just because I'm doing well with my current routine doesn't mean I couldn't do better with a better one!

Thank'ee very much! :)

[takahura19]

Hi guys I need your help. I am training taekwondo for 3 years and I'm like stagnating not becoming better. I have a problem as I train also road cycling in hills and mountains so I combine both sports. I have taekwondo one hour per weekly day. I need an advise how to improve my flexibility as I can't widen my legs for a side split more than 120 degrees. When we had Koreans on exchange two guys took my legs and with all the power stretched me very near to a full side split. I was screaming as hell :D With front split I don't have problem maybe 5-10cm are missing. Otherwise I'm quite tall 186cm and started training taekwondo with 16 years now I'm 19. So I would like to ask you if you can suggest me a kind of plan how to perform better side split as I need it for better dollyo chagi(roundhouse kick) from a hip and also for the kick in head and my hook kicks sucks so much I am shamed. regards

P.S My trainer sucks but he is korean, and we don't have better coaches in my area

[Patrick Smith]

Welcome to MAP.

Hi guys I need your help. I am training taekwondo for 3 years and I'm like stagnating not becoming better. I have a problem as I train also road cycling in hills and mountains so I combine both sports. I have taekwondo one hour per weekly day. I need an advise how to improve my flexibility as I can't widen my legs for a side split more than 120 degrees. When we had Koreans on exchange two guys took my legs and with all the power stretched me very near to a full side split. I was screaming as hell :D

Don't do that, my friend...

With front split I don't have problem maybe 5-10cm are missing. Otherwise I'm quite tall 186cm and started training taekwondo with 16 years now I'm 19. So I would like to ask you if you can suggest me a kind of plan how to perform better side split as I need it for better dollyo chagi(roundhouse kick) from a hip and also for the kick in head and my hook kicks sucks so much I am shamed. regards

Did you read the first post in this thread? http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89245


P.S My trainer sucks but he is korean, and we don't have better coaches in my area

How does being Korean make an instructor better? :rolleyes:

[Van Zandt]

Patrick360 has put me out of a job.

Dang. :(

[takahura19]

I went several times through the posts on begginer guide and here. I would like to ask just about dynamic streching. Should I do like front lifts with fingers on feet up or down if you understand what I mean, than how many repetitions should I do with leg 10 with one and 10 with another or 1 left 1 right and also should I leave the leg in air or should I touch the floor each time. Otherwise great posts thank you a lot. And also about holding legs in air, static-active flexibility is it neccesseary to do and how many times should I do it. regards

[Patrick Smith]

Patrick360 has put me out of a job.

Dang. :(

Sorry! :evil: I'm just an evil little sith apprentice!

Okay...here I go again! :vanish:

And also about holding legs in air, static-active flexibility is it neccesseary to do and how many times should I do it. regards

Here's how I see it (if I've read Superfoot's material correctly), if you want to be able to have impressive kicks, you need the static-active flexibility and strength. Believe me, someone flinging their leg up in the air without any control doesn't look as impressive (or impressive at all) as someone who thrusts their kick out with snap, power and control. If you just want flexibility, then you don't have to do the static-active flexibility exercises.

I went several times through the posts on begginer guide and here. I would like to ask just about dynamic streching. Should I do like front lifts with fingers on feet up or down if you understand what I mean, than how many repetitions should I do with leg 10 with one and 10 with another or 1 left 1 right and also should I leave the leg in air or should I touch the floor each time.

You should be doing a total of 10-12 reps per leg per set (5 sets per leg per direction). Whether you alternate legs or not is preference. I find it easier and faster if I hold onto a chair or door frame with one hand and do all 12 reps with one leg, then switch to the other leg and do all its 12 reps. However, you could also stand in the middle of a room (make sure it's clear so you don't break something...) and just do them there, one at a time, alternating legs. And yes, I think you should pause at the bottom of the raise and touch your foot to the floor because it helps you avoid swinging.

I hope this helps!

By the way, I was just looking at the little emoticon list while making writing this post and I had a good idea. We need a little emoticon that says, "Call Superfoot!" Problem is, I don't thank there's enough room on the sign... :rolleyes:

[Van Zandt]

By the way, I was just looking at the little emoticon list while making writing this post and I had a good idea. We need a little emoticon that says, "Call Superfoot!" Problem is, I don't thank there's enough room on the sign...

No, I think a "Call Patrick360" emoticon would suffice :cool:

[Patrick Smith]

No, I think a "Call Patrick360" emoticon would suffice :cool:

Ha ha!! Thanks :)

[takahura19]

Well the main point why I want to increase flexibility is that I can start making powerful kicks out of hip and also I can start throwing all kind of kicks hook, high kicks,... so I want to improve my kicking. My most important goal is not to the just splits, but to achieve them so I can kick more powerful and better. Because I am now disgraced of myself :D

[Patrick Smith]

Well the main point why I want to increase flexibility is that I can start making powerful kicks out of hip and also I can start throwing all kind of kicks hook, high kicks,... so I want to improve my kicking. My most important goal is not to the just splits, but to achieve them so I can kick more powerful and better. Because I am now disgraced of myself :D

Well, in that case, you should be doing the exercises already discussed in the first post. That's how you're going to get those beautiful high kicks. Just do everything that the first post (and the beginners guide to flexibility thread) says and you'll be fine.

If you're sore after doing isometric stretches, then you're not strong enough for them. Therefor, you need to start doing a strength routine.

If you don't have on already (or even if you do), go here: http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/38-articles/65-westside-for-skinny-bastards-part3.html It's not only for skinny bastards, the template is great for everybody! All you have to do is add the following exercises to your lower body routine in the workout.

Inner thigh:

Adductor flyes
Adductor pull-downs

Go here to find out if and how you should be doing your adductor specific exercises:

1. http://www.stadion.com/column_stretch24.html
2. http://www.stadion.com/column_stretch28.html
3. http://www.stadion.com/column_stretch27.html

And if you want an easy guide to follow, consider Thomas Kurz's book or DVD, here: http://www.stadion.com/index.htm

Or better yet, wait for Superfoots book (I am!).

In the mean time, I advise you to read up on flexibility at Thomas Kurz's FREE column: http://www.stadion.com/column.html Just reading every single column he's written will help you understand so much more.

Hope this helps.

[takahura19]

Should I feel pain in relaxed streching. And what should I do after my cycling training which is few hours before taekwondo lesson. regards

[Patrick Smith]

Should I feel pain in relaxed streching.

No! You should only go down far enough that your muscles tense up, hold for 30 seconds and then get out of the stretch. These aren't like isometrics; they should not hurt.

And what should I do after my cycling training which is few hours before taekwondo lesson. regards

You should do relaxed stretches to cool down after an exercise session. The first post in this thread shows a bunch of great relaxed stretches, so take a look at them.

[Van Zandt]

And what should I do after my cycling training which is few hours before taekwondo lesson

To add to the excellent posts by PatrickSmith, you might want to look at how you are scheduling your fitness activities. I personally wouldn't do cycling training so soon before a Taekwondo session, or even on the same day. Improper sequence of exercises is a major contributer to chronic inflexibility.

[KonGato]

Question about dynamic stretching in the morning

- "Begin within 15 minutes after waking up": If I (which happens a lot) wake up at 8:00 pm and then choose to snooze until 8:30 pm, when do I "wake up" according to dynamic stretching-routine (counting 15 minutes from when?) ? Silly question maybe :)

- "Do dynamic stretching twice a day": If either I forget, lack time or if I ruin the morning stretch by waking up but simply not getting up for a long time; What stretch (morning or pre-workout later on the day) is more important, i.e. more decisive on future development? Of course I aim to to them both but is one of them slightly more important than the other?

Thanks

[Van Zandt]

1) Fifteen minutes from 8:00am in your example.

2) The morning stretch is more important as this resets your level of nervous tension for the rest of the day.

[liero]

I'm not going to lie...I hate the morning dynamic stretches.

Once I did them and felt a strain in my leg, and my knee hurt for a few days.

When I stretch at class in the evening I can get to FULL extension, foot pointing to the roof etc. when I try in the AM I have alot more diffuculty getting height.

[KonGato]

I woke up just now, before my alarm went off, and I forced myself up just do not ruin my dynamic stretching :P Saying good bye to sweet sleepy mornings :eek:

Regarding the above post about not getting full stretch in the morning, my input: I feel very stiff in the first set of 12 reps ( I can seriously just get ti waist height with the FORWARD stretch!), but I can get a bit higher on the 2nd set, yet a bit higher on the 3rd. On the 4th set of 12 reps I think* I am at my max height (forward stretch: ankle at chin height)

Just don't overdo it the first set, move slowly. Just to the point where you feel a stretch, don't get anything strained. The minute from where you have completed 12 reps of forward-stretches to your next set of forward stretches (side stretches and back stretches in between), hopefully the flexibility in that movement have had time to increase. This is how it works for me at least.


* Regarding "max height": I usually do no more than 3-4 sets in the morning, and I assume I get to somewhere near my maximum in those sets. In this threads first post it says that one should stop if one gets fatigued and get tired muscles beacuse this can slow down your progress. I do get tired in those last sets so therefore I stop but I can't be sure whether or not I reached my maximum height (maybe I wold reach it in set#5 if I was not tired). What I am curious about is the following;

- In the morning dynamic stretch, how does it affect my progress if I never get to full 100% height but only 80-90%? Does it help my progress at all or does it just help me to stay at the same level?

It feels like when I think I am at my full height, I would need to put in an extra set just to see if I can get higher - but the downside with this is that I am likely already fatigued at that time. I could try to take it easier with the intensity...

By the way, "skip a day and you're back to square one" - is that a little exaggerated? I have no problems doing relaxed stretching every day strictly but sometimes I will not be able to/not have the discipline to do dynamic stretching twice a day (morning+evening). Will I then really lose all flexibility in a day? Would you say that I might lose 20% or so?

I read somewhere (flashmavi wushu site, something...) that dynamic stretching should be done 4-5 times so of course I have the amibiton to them 7 days a week, twice a day, but I will still see progress if I happen to neglect 1-3 sessions* a week?

* 1 session = either one morning or one evening stretch


This happened to get a too long post, questions just popped out of the surface :rolleyes:

[Van Zandt]

- In the morning dynamic stretch, how does it affect my progress if I never get to full 100% height but only 80-90%? Does it help my progress at all or does it just help me to stay at the same level?

Your body remembers movements that were done the most times, or most intense, or both. This is the reason why cyclists (who regularly move through a narrow ROM) complain of tight hamstrings. If you only hit 80-90% consistently, then that 80-90% will become your new 100%. In basic terms, it will reverse your progress!

It feels like when I think I am at my full height, I would need to put in an extra set just to see if I can get higher - but the downside with this is that I am likely already fatigued at that time. I could try to take it easier with the intensity...

This is why trial and error is so important. If say, today, you were tired by your fourth set but felt you could go a bit higher on the next set, adjust your effort % in tomorrow's sets. So take it easier in the first few sets that you have been doing.

Note that your first set of stretches in the morning (whether dynamic, active or static) will always be crap :D

By the way, "skip a day and you're back to square one" - is that a little exaggerated? I have no problems doing relaxed stretching every day strictly but sometimes I will not be able to/not have the discipline to do dynamic stretching twice a day (morning+evening). Will I then really lose all flexibility in a day? Would you say that I might lose 20% or so?

Just don't skip a day and you'll never have to worry about it ;)

I read somewhere (flashmavi wushu site, something...) that dynamic stretching should be done 4-5 times so of course I have the amibiton to them 7 days a week, twice a day, but I will still see progress if I happen to neglect 1-3 sessions* a week?

Consistency is key to great flexibility. One of the reasons so few people are able to slap someone in the head without a warm-up is because so many people skip on training.

[Patrick Smith]

Just wanted to stop by and remind people about some of the proper form rules when doing adductor flyes and pull downs.

Do them slowly and carefully! I can tell you from experience that you should not treat these as high intensity ballistic movements. They are not. I repeat, do them slowly and carefully or suffer the very likely consequences. :)

In both adductor flyes and adductor pull downs, your legs and hips should all be in line with each other.

In doing adductor pull downs, be sure not to let your foot (that you're going to pull down) go any higher then your hips/waist. If you do, you will be engaging other muscles not necessary for the movement. Important!

In adductor flyes, if you're using a lot of ankle weights or iron boots, you should spot yourself by keeping your hands ready to help support your legs. Just lock your elbows at your sides (with the back of your arm resting on the floor) and keep your hands on the floor side of your thighs. Believe me, it's well worth it.

Also make double sure your iron boots or ankle weights are well attached while doing adductor flyes. When done properly, adductor flyes bring the weight right above your lower abdomen and you don't weight falling loose in that position! :D

You should also remember that it's very important to keep the lower back pressed to the floor while doing adductor flyes. It makes it harder to do, but resist the urge to sit on your hands.

[Van Zandt]

If this thread has been helpful to anyone, please go cast your vote in the MAP Awards 2009 forum and help make this thread win the award for Most Informative Thread. It's not me who gets the award but the thread, so PLEASE go and make your vote count. This thread is a collaborative effort so please give the contributors (not just me) the recognition they deserve. Thanks guys.

Regards,

President Van Zandt ;)

[zcrowley]

I voted Van Zandt. This thread is excellent.

Regards,
Zack

[Van Zandt]

Thanks :cool:

[Patrick Smith]

It's possible (though not for us fanatics) for some here to suffer from a lack of motivation to wake up early and do dynamic stretches.

Here is a video that I found that should motivate you!

YouTube- Mark Drozdzowski Tribute

:D

[zcrowley]

Wow that vid is inrcedible.

Regards,
Zack

[righty]

Well hey, let's just put a question in both threads.

Would you say there is any danger or cause for concern having different levels of flexibility in your legs. For example, I've had a pile of injuries all focused on my right leg, some resulting in extended lengths of immobility. As a result bits and pieces of my legs are noticeable more or less flexible. For example for me hamstrings - the right is noticeably more flexible (to me anyway), and with quads the left is more flexible.

Would you suggest training each muscle to increase flexibility separately regardless or leg? OR
Stretch certain muscles of each leg more than others to even out the imbalance?

As far as my knowledge goes you would normally use the second option if you had a strength imbalance (substituting streching for strength training) but not sure about flexibility.

[liero]

If its just from sprains and muscle stress then stretch them equally assuming you have adequate recovery time from the injury.

I recently pulled a muscle doing an axe kick, 2nd week of January.

I took it easy for 2 weeks and eased back into training.

There is still some tension in this leg so I focus on my left leg more and i make sure I limit my stretching on the right leg so as to not aggrevate the injury.

If your injuries are more permanent such that they require major surgery or stretching would damage them, then of course steer clear of doing exercises to that leg.

Im sure there is a professional kickboxer who was quite successful on the pro circut using only one leg...


The name escapes me ;)

[Van Zandt]

Righty,

You're not a dominantly left-legged kicker are you? It's just that I am a right-legged kicker, and my left hamstring is the most flexible. This is because it is my left hamstring which is stressed (placed under a stretch) every time I kick due to the biomechanical alignment. This is a common trait in people who kick mostly with one side, and I thought it might be the case with you too.

Is it problematic? Yes and no. Strategy-wise... no, because like that famous pro kickboxer who shall not be named (Amen), you can adjust your fight game to make it work for you. Problems arise however when the flexibility imbalance throws off your posture, which in turn can lead to chronic fatigue and injuries (just like a strength imbalance). Work doubly hard on your least flexible side to keep your long term health in the green.

[righty]

Righty,

You're not a dominantly left-legged kicker are you?

It kind of wierd. My right leg in dominant but I notice I tend to kick with the left more often, even though it's less powerful. I'm pretty sure it's quicker though.

I'm not sure I really want to be like that Kickboxer dude though.

I want to be superfeet, not superfoot. :D

[Van Zandt]

Your left leg may be more flexible because you use it more, then. Your body remembers the actions you do more times. Your left leg probably has more quickness as a result of the extra flexibility compared to the right.

[Patrick Smith]

I train both legs equally, but in sparring I tend to kick with my left leg (front leg) more. I would not want to be a one leg kicker.

[Van Zandt]

I would advise everyone to train both legs equally, which is ironic coming from me. But I only kick with my right leg now out of necessity due to my hip op last year. It's a real shame because I miss my wicked left leg axe kick. I could score head shots for days with that beast. You have to seriously look at your physical strengths and limitations and develop a strategy that will work for you. I was fortunate because my idol just happened to have a ready-made strategy that works great for me!

[Patrick Smith]

Hey...how come this thread isn't stickied yet, how come? :D

[Ninjuries]

I have a couple of questions regarding the procedure, if anyone helpful and stretchy is checking in! :)

I've gotten back into the routine as posted here after a break of a couple of months. Pretty much back to square one when I started up again. I REALLY am noticing an improvement (those early mornings are worth it!) so I'll begin by saying I'm very very grateful for Van Zandt's guide.

I've noticed my left leg seems to be a little 'better' than my right leg (as in, kicks higher and with better form.) Is it normal to have a dominant leg?

Also, I've started to notice a slight pain in my left knee when doing the dynamic stretches with my right leg. Meaning on each rep with the right leg there's a slight twinge. Nothing I can't handle, but likely to just be something that goes away? If possibly not, is there a decent principle form to stick to with the supporting leg throughout the dynamic stretches?

Lastly, I've been a little lacklustre with the relaxed stretches that are pictured, as I'm not entirely sure which areas they're stretching. Splits I get, but the rest of them I'm not 100% on. Can anyone give me a brief rundown of them?

I'll be enormously grateful for any help. HOPE it sounds like I'm asking sensible things.

[Van Zandt]

I've noticed my left leg seems to be a little 'better' than my right leg (as in, kicks higher and with better form.) Is it normal to have a dominant leg?

Perfectly normal.

Also, I've started to notice a slight pain in my left knee when doing the dynamic stretches with my right leg. Meaning on each rep with the right leg there's a slight twinge. Nothing I can't handle, but likely to just be something that goes away? If possibly not, is there a decent principle form to stick to with the supporting leg throughout the dynamic stretches?

Where on your knee (front, back, outside or inside)?

Lastly, I've been a little lacklustre with the relaxed stretches that are pictured, as I'm not entirely sure which areas they're stretching. Splits I get, but the rest of them I'm not 100% on. Can anyone give me a brief rundown of them?

The relaxed stretches in my original post target the following muscle groups (as pictured):

Abdominals
Back
Outer hip
Outer hip again
Hip flexors
Quadriceps
Calves
Hamstrings
Adductors

[Ninjuries]

The man himself! Thanks.

Righty, well the knee twinge comes from doing the crescent kicks and the first kick from the video. It's only on the left leg when kicking with the right leg. The pain is to the front and the inside side of the knee, and feels like it's part of the joint. It's not enough to make me wince even, but it's definitely a teensy 'something'.

Thanks for the hints on the relaxed stretches! That'll be very helpful. I'll attack those later on.

Are there any hard and fast rules on developing good form with kicks? Given that there are so many variations in so many martial arts it's probably not a catch-all answer I'll get, but any dos and don'ts to follow?

Cheers for taking the time to answer I do appreciate this thread an awful lot. It's made a ton of difference to my ability, but still a long way to go! :)

[proteinnerd]

Hi, I noticed in the guide at the beginning of the thread the morning routine does not include a light cardiovascular warm-up. Does this mean that the morning dynamic stretches are done cold? (after joint rotations of course).

If yes, do you expect / aim to get the same height you would get after a thorough warmup?

[Patrick Smith]

Hi, I noticed in the guide at the beginning of the thread the morning routine does not include a light cardiovascular warm-up. Does this mean that the morning dynamic stretches are done cold? (after joint rotations of course).

If yes, do you expect / aim to get the same height you would get after a thorough warmup?

Hi, Proteinnerd.

Yes, the dynamic stretches in the morning are done 'cold.' Always do joint rotations first, though, particularly hip rotations (which should be done at least 20 times before dynamic stretching).

You don't need to do a warm-up for the early morning dynamic stretching session. Joint rotations, dynamic stretches and (if you have time) relaxed stretches are sufficient.

If yes, do you expect / aim to get the same height you would get after a thorough warmup?

The purpose of the morning dynamic stretches is to help reset the nervous regulation of the length of your muscles, so, yes. Once you develop your maximal range of dynamic flexibility, you should be able to kick without a warm up (don't make it a habit, though, it's best to warm up!).

[Achilles NZ]

Hi, Proteinnerd.


The purpose of the morning dynamic stretches is to help reset the nervous regulation of the length of your muscles, so, yes. Once you develop your maximal range of dynamic flexibility, you should be able to kick without a warm up (don't make it a habit, though, it's best to warm up!).

^^^^^ What he said:cool:

[Van Zandt]

My apprentice is learning well :cry: <-- Tears of happiness :)

[Patrick Smith]

My apprentice is learning well :cry: <-- Tears of happiness :)

Does that mean I'm well on my way to being "Van Zandt Certified"? So...proud! :cry: :D

[Van Zandt]

Ye shall be but the first of my army of high kicking minions :evil:

[Patrick Smith]

*evil laugh* :evil:

[Ninjuries]

Right, just got back at it after a few weeks off due to my above post (which I was gonna edit rather than flood the thread.)

Problem with the knee is gone and I am SURE it was due to my form stressing the knee over time. I'd injured my heel somehow and I'll put it down to not putting the weight on my foot properly. Starting off slow again and WOW you DO lose a fair bit of stretchiness if you don't keep it up.

I have a couple more questions before my journey towards the dark side is complete.

How many sets of dynamic stretches are enough? At the moment I'll do two or three.

Are there any other good alternatives to the back kick the guy in the video does? I can't seem to get decent form on that one - shall I just stick it out until I do?

Many thanks - and this stuff does indeed work (when you keep it up and do it right! :) )

[Patrick Smith]

Hi, Ninjuries. :)

Right, just got back at it after a few weeks off due to my above post (which I was gonna edit rather than flood the thread.)

Problem with the knee is gone and I am SURE it was due to my form stressing the knee over time. I'd injured my heel somehow and I'll put it down to not putting the weight on my foot properly. Starting off slow again and WOW you DO lose a fair bit of stretchiness if you don't keep it up.


Right on, my friend. Consistency is key! :cool:


I have a couple more questions before my journey towards the dark side is complete.

How many sets of dynamic stretches are enough? At the moment I'll do two or three.

The recommended sets and reps are 4-5 sets of 8-12 per leg, per direction, however, if you're just getting into it, be careful that you do not go too far too fast. A tired muscle is not a flexible muscle, so if you get tired during stretching you should probably stop, since you resort more to momentum to raise your leg higher. There was a study that showed the just 3 sets of 10 reps (per leg and per direction) done twice daily increases dynamic flexibility dramatically. Start slow, and don't force anything.


Are there any other good alternatives to the back kick the guy in the video does? I can't seem to get decent form on that one - shall I just stick it out until I do?

Many thanks - and this stuff does indeed work (when you keep it up and do it right! :) )

I don't like the stretches in that video, because they seem to resort to much to momentum. That may not be the case, but it certainly gives the impression. Also, keep in mind that these are not kicks. They are dynamic stretches/leg raises. ;)

These are the dynamic stretches that I use twice daily, every day:

http://www.stadion.com/gif/Raises.jpg
a) Leg raise to the front; b) Leg raise to the back; c) Leg raise to the side
From Stadion.com (http://www.stadion.com/column_stretch05.html)

When I do the front leg raise, I will hit my hand (as shown) to stop its momentum. This is recommended (although not strictly necessary), because it helps your nervous system relax and not worry that your foot will go too high and tear a muscle. Basically, it reduces the myotatic reflex (I'm hazy on the technical terms, Van Zandt, so correct me if I'm wrong!). After my foot hits my hand, I gradually slow it down to a smooth stop a foot and a half or two feet back behind my body while turning my hips a little, and then I repeat. Be careful that you don't jerk your legs around.

I hold onto a chair with one hand (or both sometimes) when I do my side leg raises, because I feel like it helps me get a better stretch and to control my leg better. However, I do not hit my hand with my foot. I can barely reach my foot!

I hold onto a chair for the back leg raise too, but you have to be careful you don't get too carried away! By that I mean you must be careful that the raise does not become a full speed and ballistic kick.

Oh... I think answered more then your questions asked... I get carried away :rolleyes:

:evil:

[Ninjuries]

Patrick you are a gentleman and a scholar and that was just what I needed. Thanks so much for getting carried away on my account! :) I'll give all that a spin from tomorrow. :)

[Van Zandt]

*Sits back and contemplates retirement*

:)

[Patrick Smith]

*Sits back and contemplates retirement*

:)

Ha! You can't retire until you finish your book, my friend. Don't try to get out of it! :p

[Ninjuries]

Okay this is starting to make a difference now that I've got back into my routine and the early mornings have become a habit.

Seriously, thank you so much Van Zandt and Patrick.

Are there any good YouTube videos around for the dynamic stretches aside from the initial one already posted? I think I'm doing alright as I've NONE of the previous knee pain anymore and think more 'lift' and less 'swing' with my dynamic stretch routines... But I'm a stickler for good form in all my exercises and I'd love to see a few if anyone's got any roasting good ones or steaming bad ones.

I did check out the elasticsteel guy here (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=elasticsteel&aq=f) who has some seemingly alright advice, but none of which I'm following just yet in favour of what we have on this thread. Any opinions?

Again though, I am hugely grateful for all this advice here. I had one of those days waiting for the kettle to boil outside the office and, aiming for the wall, wondered if I could kick someone my height in the face from standing. Turns out I can now. :)

[proteinnerd]

I did check out the elasticsteel guy here (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=elasticsteel&aq=f) who has some seemingly alright advice, but none of which I'm following just yet in favour of what we have on this thread. Any opinions?


If you are interested in more info of the elastic steel material, can I offer a shameless plug for my blog that reviews some of his courses.

Find it at:

www.training4splits.blogspot.com

[Patrick Smith]

Okay this is starting to make a difference now that I've got back into my routine and the early mornings have become a habit.

Seriously, thank you so much Van Zandt and Patrick.

Again though, I am hugely grateful for all this advice here. I had one of those days waiting for the kettle to boil outside the office and, aiming for the wall, wondered if I could kick someone my height in the face from standing. Turns out I can now. :)

You're welcome, and great work! :)


Are there any good YouTube videos around for the dynamic stretches aside from the initial one already posted? I think I'm doing alright as I've NONE of the previous knee pain anymore and think more 'lift' and less 'swing' with my dynamic stretch routines... But I'm a stickler for good form in all my exercises and I'd love to see a few if anyone's got any roasting good ones or steaming bad ones.

I did check out the elasticsteel guy here (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=elasticsteel&aq=f) who has some seemingly alright advice, but none of which I'm following just yet in favour of what we have on this thread. Any opinions?

The front, back, and side leg raises should be sufficient for almost any kicks. I wouldn't do more, considering that doing 3-5 sets per leg and per direction is already counting up to 620 leg raises (assuming you do not do the full 5 sets on the back leg raises and that you do them twice a day). Tired muscles aren't flexible muscles, and you might set yourself back.

Regarding form, there are three things that I have found to help me.

1. I bend my supporting knee slightly in the front leg raise. I have PPS (Patellofemoral Pain Syndrome) and my knee clicks or pops when I don't. It's more comfortable and it doesn't seem to effect my stretch negatively.

2. I turn my supporting foot facing straight away from the direction I am raising my leg. I find this sets me up perfectly to comfortably raise my leg and turn my hips properly.

3. I turn my hips down and away from my foot (http://danvanzandt.blogspot.com/2010/05/hip-pain-in-splits-and-high-side-kicks.html)

Thomas Kurz has a wealth of information on his website, http://stadion.com. Don't buy anything, though. Everything you need to get the splits is here on MAP. :)

Patrick

[Ninjuries]

Ta for that guys. :) I'll have a good old read later on. :)

[slipthejab]

great thread. great info!

[Van Zandt]

Thanks Slip :cool:

[fabrizio]

With the side kick I get pain in the obligue area? As if the side kick is pushing it up my body.

[Van Zandt]

The pain might be connected to your hip, if you are not rotating your pelvis enough. Pain spreading out to other areas is a rare symptom however. You may just lack strength in your obliques, particularly because they are a major agonist (prime mover) in the side kick. Being able to kick properly requires proper conditioning of the core (abs, oblique and back) as much as being able to do splits. Your posture might be off, leading to aches as your body tries to compensate by overstressing certain areas.

[fabrizio]

Thanks Van Zandt.

[Van Zandt]

No problems buddy. :)

[Commander Nitro]

If you want high kicks, you need the splits. Stretch every day and go to martial arts 2-4 times a week. Also, you need to do 3 types of stretching:

1) Dynamic stretching
2) Relaxed stretching
3) Isometric stretching

[Kuma]

If you want high kicks, you need the splits. Stretch every day and go to martial arts 2-4 times a week. Also, you need to do 3 types of stretching:

1) Dynamic stretching
2) Relaxed stretching
3) Isometric stretching

Did you even bother to read the first, original post? Apparently not.

[Patrick Smith]

If you want high kicks, you need the splits. Stretch every day and go to martial arts 2-4 times a week. Also, you need to do 3 types of stretching:

1) Dynamic stretching
2) Relaxed stretching
3) Isometric stretching

Gee! Fur real? I never newz that0rz!

http://disneyexclusiveonline.com/images/Disney_Exclusive_Online_Store_Goofy.jpg

[Van Zandt]

Ever get the feeling you've wasted your time?

[Patrick Smith]

Sometimes, but it's for the one guy who follows through that we do it anyway, right? Even if it was one out of ten we'd probably still help out and reply. That's the nice thing about a public forum, I suppose. When someone's question gets asked, regardless of whether they actually put the answer to use, everyone can learn.

[Mr.Black]

Critics please..i think this is what suits the best for me. But is it proper?:


Morning workout

After waking up:

1) Joint rotations
2) Dynamic stretches
3) Relaxed stretches

Later:

1) Joint rotations
2) Cardio
3) Relaxed strecthes

''After waking up'' means i do it every morning, independent of doing the ''Later''. Later means i decided to train in the morning, but not after waking up, rather few hours after waking up.


*****************************************



Evening workout


1) Joint rotations
2) General warm-up (e.g. jogging on the spot)
3) Dynamic stretches
5) Isometrics
6) Relaxed stretches
7) Cardio
8) Relaxed stretches

OR

1) Joint rotations
2) General warm-up (e.g. jogging on the spot)
3) Strength
4) Isometrics
5) Relaxed stretches

First is cardio, second is strength. Ideally it would like doing after waking up workout every morning. Every second day cardio and every second day strength. Strength i would always do in the evening (i hate it in the morning), and i can choose will i do cardio in the morning or in the evening. Ther are some different, in morning cardio i don't do isometrics and dynamics.

[Patrick Smith]

Have you read the entire thread, Mr. Black? Dynamic stretches morning and evening are NOT necessary. They ARE good and important before a workout, but not necessary every morning and evening.

I'll post back soon with more comments but right now I can't.

[Mr.Black]

Hey,

i read the thread, and they are not necessary but they wan't hurt to. right? I edited a litlle bit my first post!

[Patrick Smith]

Hey,

i read the thread, and they are not necessary but they wan't hurt to. right? I edited a litlle bit my first post!

Mr. Black, it would help me to see what your weekly routine is. Do you do this morning/evening routine every day?

Regarding the dynamic stretches, they may not be very harmful, but doing 5 sets of 10-12 repetitions per side per leg twice a day is not a good idea. It's a totally unnecessary addition to your training and just makes it more likely that you'll burn out, physically and mentally. Believe me, I did 5x12 to the front, side, back, both legs, twice a day, for more than 6 months straight without ever missing a day. I didn't burn out, but I was really motivated and I was really glad to not have to do them. They really aren't beneficial to you outside of movement prep/warm up for workouts. Think of all the people who have the splits who don't, and never have, done dynamic stretches morning and evening.

[Mr.Black]

Ideally, it should look like this. I put the whole program it may be useful you never know.

There are two types of a day. Cardio day and a strength day.

CARDIO DAY 1

After waking workout:

1) Joint rotations
2) Dynamic stretches
3) Relaxed stretches

Evening

1) Joint rotations
2) General warm-up (e.g. jogging on the spot)
3) Dynamic stretches
5) Isometrics
6) Relaxed stretches
7) Cardio
8) Relaxed stretches

**

CARDIO DAY 2

After waking up:

1) Joint rotations
2) Dynamic stretches
3) Relaxed stretches

Later (about two to three or four hours after waking up):

1) Joint rotations
2) Cardio
3) Relaxed strecthes

**

STRENGTH DAY

After waking workout:

1) Joint rotations
2) Dynamic stretches
3) Relaxed stretches

Evening workout

1) Joint rotations
2) General warm-up (e.g. jogging on the spot)
3) Strength
4) Isometrics
5) Relaxed stretches

**

I practice every day except sunday, which is day of doing totally nothing :D

Two days of the same type can't go two times in a row. So week is like: strength - cardio - strength - cardio - strength - cardio - rest.

Let's put some definition on what i do:

Dynamic stretches:

10 times front
10 times rear
10 times side.

And that two times.

Cardio:

Type 1:

About 30 minutes on jogging on about 60 - 75% of my heart rate.

Type 2

Interval, 20 secs of sprint 10 secs of walking. When i can't do it anymore than i jog easy.

Strength:

It vary. But i tend to do exercices which activates a lot of muscles, and core exercices. Squats, push ups, chin ups, bench press, crunches and so on. I rare isolate some muscle but usually it is biceps. :D

I tend to keep balance in strength, etc. between quadriceps and harmstrings, back and abs, triceps and biceps and so on. Sometimes i do isometric training with weigths, and so on.

I do it differently always, so one time it's interval type of training, once circular and so on.

However really various type of doing the mainly same exercices.

Isometrics:

Strecth, tend, release. Repeat three times. Side and front split on both sides. Nine exercices at all. I have not some time box, when it releases i tend more, when i feel it's my limit i relax.

**

But this is ideally which means it wan't be like that always. We all have colleges, jobs, etc, some higher priorities. But this is it and i will stick as much as i can.

[Van Zandt]

You pretty much have the gist of the programme. What is the angle between your thighs at your maximal stretch in front and side splits? With this figure it will be straightforward to determine the optimal number of sets and repetitions of dynamic stretches for you.