sensi Oughton....... 8th dan???????

[graveyard_ninja]

Just reading up on the charlaton sensi Jack Poole and the BAB fraud alligation. There are several psudo masters out there not just in Aikido. One other springs to mind one (late) sensi George Oughton so called 8th dan!. Who also claims also to have started aikido in the 1950's in the Hut under sensi Abbe. There is however no evidence of this at all.
Is anyone able to shed any light on this?.

[Freeform]

Aikido Article From MAP mag (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/magazine/articles/aikidocontroversy1.htm)

Have you read this one?

Colin

[aikiwolfie]

hmm bogus masters ... never realy thought about this, I'll be asking my teacher about this sensei poole stuff since he trained with virtually all of the early teachers.

[crane]

I have heared similar stories but have no details I'm afraid

[DexterTCN]

I don't think there was ever any dispute about Mr Poole's grade. (I have no idea what grade he is.)

It was merely the amount of time he had been training.

[aikiwolfie]

It's not just a case of how long he has practiced Aikido Dexter. The length of time he claims to have practiced implies Mr Poole was a founding member of Aikido in the UK. If Mr Poole is lieing about this, it's an insult to the guy who claims to have been Mr Pools teacher. You have to remember that Aikido, especially way back then, still takes the values implied in traditional Japanese dojo etiquette to heart. So to stand there and tell bare-faced lies (if that's what is happening) is highly insulting to all concerned. Most of all the people being cheated out of their place in history.

[DexterTCN]

Originally posted by aikiwolfie
It's not just a case of how long he has practiced Aikido Dexter.

Yes it is. All the rest, which is claimed to be history, is just ego talking. (Yes I know the history of The Hut, I have been graded by Foster sensei.)

No-one cares...and everyone can see the obvious truth. Poole sensei did not train for the amount of time he claimed...but if I say I have practiced for 6 years..anyone could say 'hah!...you only practiced for a few hours each week you liar!'

Anyway..I don't even consider that old brutality to be aikido...remember...Abbe sensei left them and said they had corrupted it. :)

[Amakasashi]

not only that he is claiming ot have trained under deceased individuals I believe, and since you know they are dead no one can really contest it. He is using them for his own personal gain which is sickly disturbing to any aikido student. He also claimed to have been the first judo master and some other art in britain to add on to the "achievements". Sickly the board is falling for this utter crap and re-writing the history of aikido in britain. They claim to be an aikido board in the best interests of aikido, since when was the best interest of aikido to spit poison with two tounges. They should have checked out the facts, realized hey you know we made a mistake, announced the change after sucking up their selfish pride (which aikido is an egoless art, or so it is supposed to be), but they didn't, the hid behind their forked tounges spouting off anything they can think of just to dodje the truth coming out. They say the matter is closed, but in fact it is still open and I hope someone in the future will stand up against this fool hardy so called martial artist (poole) and the board to make the right decision, the people that man has insulted are me you and the thousands of previous aikido students, the sad part is that I don't think anyone will be ablet o change the mistakes made by that non functional unit called the board. Sorry for sounding pissed off, but even in the US it is still disrespectful to any aikido student, I myself included.

[aikiwolfie]

Well fortunatly most people are belssed with some degree of good sense. When an organisation like the BAB (that's the right one right?) loses face like this most of the teachers with a reputation of teaching quality Aikido, a reputation worth protecting, will jump ship and go elsewhere or setup on their own.

[crane]

Im a member of the BAB not on the board or committee or anything just an Aikido student and find the whole organisation a corrupt mis-mash of beaurocratic egotistical nobodies.

[Dave Humm]

Hey everyone,

I know this isn't the forum to introduce myself however, as someone that has been pretty much involved with the Controversy debate from its infancy, a supporter of Mr. Ellis and his endeavours to highlight the truth in the whole sordid matter and, the context of this thread I thought I'd start here.

So, Hello all, obviously my name is Dave. I've studied Aikido Since 1989; I'm a staunch traditionalist following the Aikikai discipline of the art and have spent a number of years within the United Kingdom Aikikai. I'm also a member of the British Kendo Association where I study Muso Shinden Ryu Iaijutsu.

As a British Aikidoist I am very interested in how aikido has been shaped within my own country since it was introduced in 1955 by Abbe Sensei.

I have taken seminars with Mr. Poole before the controversy debate came to light. I do not however, know him personally.

I am also the domain owner and administrator for :
www.aikido-database.co.uk

I realise that the controversy issue is now growing very long in the tooth. I am reminded periodically of that fact by people who express that they wish I'd "move on" and drop the support I offer on my website for Mr. Ellis. It is clearly obvious however, that many more aikidoists still want to peruse this matter in an attempt to eventually learn the truth behind Mr. Poole's claimed background prior to 1968 and (perhaps more impotently) the bizarre behaviour of the so called Governing Body for our art.

Regardless of one's opinion about Mr. Poole as a person or the claims he's made within his martial arts biography, you cannot escape the fact that our Governing Body has acted in a deceitful and underhanded manor. One might even go so far as to say "Corrupt". Behaviour that (as far as I'm personally concerned) isn't conducive with the "Constituted Purpose" they BAB pontificates on their website, for a body to whom I've paid my hard earnd money to. Needless to say I have nothing further to do with the BAB.

I welcome you to express your opinions on the aikido database forums specifically to do with this very subject. Whilst I am always pleased to see fellow aikidoists discussing this matter from all perspectives, the issue does get watered down as it spreads from forum to forum. The NACD website that I administer contains all the relevant facts and information on this debate and thus, is easy to reference against.

Let me say in conclusion, I am not attempting to solicit your help. I fully respect your individual opinions be it for, against or indifferent. I am however attempting to concentrate the bulk of the discussions in once fora to all concerned to see.

Many thanks for taking the time to read this :)

DaveH

[crane]

Hi there I've read your artical with keen interest and I'll looking at your web-site very shortly.
This thread seems to be more about Sensi Pool and the BAB. I'd really love to know who sensi Oughton is!. Does anyone know?:rolleyes:

[aikiwolfie]

lol aren't i the lil trouble maker lol ... I resurect an old thread n look what happens muhahahahahaaaa wannabies beware there is no place you can hide from wolfie muhahahaha ... howels at the moon ... um blame that fuzzy panther chick she gave me a licence to post .....

[Dave Humm]

Is anyone able to shed any light on this?.
Bizarrely enough Mr. Henry Ellis and myself were discussing this very matter only a few days ago.

Suffice to say there was some debate concerning the Late Oughton Sensei's credentials in aikido and where his 8th dan originated.

The bottom line however, is the chap as we know has returned to the source so, it's a pointless debate, purely because I don't believe in attempting to discuss a matter that he, the person concerned, cannot come forth and defend himself.

Unlike the Poole/BAB farce which carries on.. And will do so in the face of the arrogance of the BAB and the continued silence of Mr. Poole.

DaveH

[aikiwolfie]

Well personaly I'd never actually heard of Sensei Oughton until I saw this thread. So I really couldn't comment on his credentials.

[Amakasashi]

yeah same, but that poole thing still really gets me lol

[Dave Humm]

Toledo or Cleveland.. As in Newcastle way UK or Cleveland US ?

Might sound a daft question but, if you've studied Aiki within the UK then the Poole / BAB farce obviously touches you directly, especially if you've paid or are paying moneis to the BAB.

Frankly I feel they are accepting money from students under false protences, they state their constituted perpose as the *Only* Governing Body on their website yet it, is acceptable for them to conduct themselves in this fashion. The absence of any formal statement on their website regarding what IS a very important issue within the UK speaks VOLUMES about their position and stance.

Personally, it is my opinion, the BAB are a worthless untrustworthy organisation. Every service or facility they provide can be sourced elsewhere and the number of Aikidoists learning this IS on the increase.

The BAB would have to do some radical changes to regain the trust of those who've already voted with their feet.

Here's a thread you might find interesting, clearly makes an important point about the integrity of this mob.

NACD Forum "Motive, Intent, Purpose" (http://www.robspeed.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16)

[DexterTCN]

Originally posted by Dave Humm


Poole / BAB farce ...
accepting money from students under false protences...
Personally, it is my opinion, the BAB are a worthless untrustworthy organisation...
The BAB would have to do some radical changes to regain the trust of those who've already voted with their feet...
... integrity of this mob.


:rolleyes:


As long as someone covers my insurance I don't care.

I mean no disrespect but you just keep going on and on about it and you seem to revel in taking cheap shots in many posts (vis-a-vis your previous reply about Sensei Oughton where you made a totally unwarranted attack on the BAB and Sensei Poole in your last paragraph). There are many avenues for people who are interested to become involved already.

While I have the greatest respect for all Aikidoka (and I include you in this statement) you do seem to be almost religiously concerned with the matter.

(Of course I acknowledge that the thread creator brought the subject up, but surely it was really as an aside.)

Peace.

[Dave Humm]

Dexter,

I agree with you I do seem to 'go on' about it however, the principles behind what's happening and other ego inflated individuals are the same.

Obviously you won't see me mention any controversy based material in other threads, just the one(s) related to these sorts of issues.

I would say you have a very level approach to the whole matter. :)

DaveH

[DexterTCN]

It's obvious that there is a great depth of feeling involved on the subject.

Perhaps part of the problem is that Aikido in the UK is just so disparate, all over the place; many different organisations and allegiances (each with different histories in the UK).

Sadly most people do not know the origins, The Hut, Abbe Sensei and so on. This sorry affair merely sullies the names of all those involved.

It is a pity that it could not have been sorted out openly and amicably, which merely again mirrors the depth of feeling.

[aikiwolfie]

I think when everything is said and done money has a huge role to play in such disputes.

I've heard it said that O Sensei used to have a donation bowl at the door of the dojo and students would pay what they felt was worth the practice and teaching they received.

If every martial arts organisation followed that practice, then I doubt there would be so many. Simply because there wouldn't even be close to half the amount of revenue to be made from voluntary annoymous donations.

[Amakasashi]

that is cool aikiwolfie i have never heard that about o'sensei, it sad that we can't do that now. Oh well what can you do lol.

[Dave Humm]

Oh well what can you do

:) First and formost run an honest organisation that sticks to it's principles and constituted purpose. Maybe ?

(I can just imagine Dexter thinking "FFS" lol.. Sorry mate)

DaveH

[aikiwolfie]

Yeah it is sad that we can't do that. Can't imagine a donation being accepted for your insureance anyway. I don't know if it is actually true or not. But I think if the idea was put to many of the teachers heading up a great number of organisations their true motavations would be exposed.

I don't think there's anything inherantly wrong about earning a living from martial arts. After all even the Samurai would have been paid for their services. I just think people should be honest about what they are doing and charge a fair price.

[Infesticon #1]

is it true that at one point the BAB didn't recognise Morihei Ueshiba as the founder of Aikido?

[aikiwolfie]

I've never jeard that story but since O Sensei came up with the name it would be pretty hard to prove otherwise.

[Amakasashi]

yeah true, who would have thought about running an honest organization before.

[Dave Humm]

LOL... do I detect a degree of sarcasm in there somewhere mate ? :) :)

DaveH

[crane]

It's sad to think all this lies and deciet surround an art like aikido which at the end of the day is a martial art that prides it's self on high moral principals.
The BAB (in my opinion) have made a mockery of all that O'sensi stood for.