Existence ?

[freespirit]

Could the porpose of existence be to exist/to be? :cool: :D

[Ara]

Then you get someone like me asking,
"what does it mean to exist?"

:P

[Jack]

Originally posted by freespirit
Could the porpose of existence be to exist/to be? :cool: :D

Bingo.

The purpose of a tree is to be a tree.
The purpose of a human is to be a human.

Refreshingly simple, isn't it?

mho.

[Dark Blade]

Originally posted by Jack
Bingo.

The purpose of a tree is to be a tree.
The purpose of a human is to be a human.

Refreshingly simple, isn't it?

mho.

Indeed, and a terrible anti-climax to such a complex topic.
:p

[shunyadragon]

The direct response to your question is simple if expressed in the simple bebiefs of the East like Taoism as mentioned in the previous posts, but if you mention 'God' and words like 'religion' s*** hits the fan.

[Xia]

Free spirit, very insightful maybe some day you will ascend to a new. as Jack said the purpose of being a tree is to be the tree. Going off on a branch, what does it mean to someone if you exist?

[freespirit]

I find that the thought of just existing is actually rather peaceful.
It puts new meaning to the phrase "to be or not to be, that is the question?"
:-)

[Sun Hwang]

Yes! The meaning of life is that it is to be lived.

[David]

The problem with us humans is that we're self-aware (to varying and individually relevant degrees!). My cats are pure straightforward cats all day every day.

I find being a human very difficult; I lost the simplicity of the experience, the Now, the Being There, the Being, when I was young. My mission now is to regain that simplicity of outlook, to re-engage my inner nature and rid myself of the psycho/emotional baggage that I acquired.

This always makes me think of whales and other cetaceans. People say "if they're so clever, why don't they have any technology or tools?". I say that they've got everything sussed beautifully: wouldn't the ideal life be to live in the biggest ecosystem on the planet, with hardly a care for predation, travelling the world, talking with others thousands of miles away without the use of a machine, just having fun and using all that brain-power for... well how on Earth could I know what goes on in such huge brains!

:)

Rgds,
David

[shonuff]

Being human is easy. Being moral and logical is hard.

[freespirit]

that's a good point if we were supposed to just exist we wouldn't be self aware, meaning we wouldn't be able to say that we should just exist we would just exist, hmmm interesting maybe it goes in a circle we start off just existing and then become self aware only to come to the conclusion that we are supposed to just exist,
just an idea

[David]

Well, we evolved ourselves into this mess. Can you even imagine us evolving a positive solution? I can't. I think we're cosmically dead-ended: the future is going to be increased asthma and neurosis.

Oh but haven't I forgotten this is the Age of Aquarius? haha! Maybe ignorance will save the day - a barbarian revolution to reset us to our bestial best :woo.

The onset of self-awareness is described in Genesis when Adam and Eve got fruity with the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil; 'suddenly' they knew their nakedness and were ashamed. To me, this is the most interesting moment in the Old Testament. Judaism and Christianity therefore seem to believe that we should not be self-aware, that it is not Edenic.

Apologies for bringing religion into it but this bit is so relevant, it could no be left out.

Rgds,
David

[shonuff]

Being human is very easy! Being more than human is hard!

Being human is as natural as being a dog is for a dog. Humans are animals who will follow instinct. It's very easy for humans to be greedy, horny, angry, hateful, selfish, cowardly, impulsive, etc. It's hard for a human to be different. It's hard for humans to be humanitarian, logical, moral, ethical, fair.

Just look at our world. Even our technologically advanced culture is still driven by primal impulses of greed and sex. Look at how markets take advantage of people by selling them sex. Look at how the economies of the world rely on the greed of men.

It's hard for man to move beyond that. It's very easy for people to be human and adapt human faults to life. It's very hard for people to do much more than that.

Why do you think heavily moral religions and science aren't popular? We use science as an excuse to abandon morals and live as beasts. We use religion as an excuse to abandon logic and reason!

Personal and social morallity is tough sell because it interferes with the mundane, selfish desires for pleasure that many people have. Science is a tough sell to people unless there is money making potention behind it. Why do you think science and math are too difficult for the vast majority of the human population to grasp? It's because it's easy being human and it's hard being more.

[David]

:) Interesting, shonuff. My take is: -

I don't think we're born with defective emotions. For every bitter, twisted Scrooge, there's a saint. Our world, which you talk about, isn't one that reflects our nature, but rather the the faults in our understanding of our nature.

The words you used to describe us come from different layers in our makeup: -

Mammalian & Evolutionary impulse - family, social, horny, protective, unconscious assessment, true action.
Human - greedy, hateful, selfish, grudging, trade, beaurocracy, science, religion, self-reinforcement of attitudes (fear, trust etc), conscious use of logic, calculation, sophistication, ulterior motivation for actions.

We use science because we lost touch with our natural instincts; we've become separated from the rest of nature.

We use religion to try to find a human understanding of all the ancient knowledge built into our genes (or whatever).

We have morals to try to recreate the basic mammalian order.

Rgds,
David

[shonuff]

WRONG!!!

We don't use science because we've lost touch with nature. Science made us less like animals. Helped in some way to influence nature. We still don't know how to use science and it's fruit correctly since we are in between that animal and that something more. The species has to evolve a bit more so we have less confusion.


Morals are the rules by which we develop civilizations. It is the basis for laws and ethics.

There is no mammalian order as you say. Animals are incapable of order. There is only equillibrium achieved by non sentient means. Order connotes some sort of sentient being is behind the "balance." Order is a man made state in which man has settled on as being what will keep things the way he likes it.

Religion is way for smart humans to lead not so smart humans. Often a way to instill universal morals to humanity. It's true power is in bringing people together for a common goal. It's true power is power over men. Power to push man in the right direction through morals. Morals are a way to social order. They are universal and independent of religion. Confuciunism proves such. Religion is a means to giving an animal reason to act civilised and the morals that keep a mass of humans working as one.

[Kosh]

Originally posted by freespirit
Could the porpose of existence be to exist/to be? :cool: :D

Does this not seem a little circular.

Its like saying 2+2 = 2+2 which is true, but isnt actually answering the question.

[David]

Originally posted by shonuff
WRONG!!!

We don't use science because we've lost touch with nature. Science made us less like animals. Helped in some way to influence nature. We still don't know how to use science and it's fruit correctly since we are in between that animal and that something more. The species has to evolve a bit more so we have less confusion.

Publication of research does not evolve the species. It's humans doing the science, not science doing the humans.


Originally posted by shonuff
Morals are the rules by which we develop civilizations. It is the basis for laws and ethics.

There is no mammalian order as you say. Animals are incapable of order. There is only equillibrium achieved by non sentient means. Order connotes some sort of sentient being is behind the "balance." Order is a man made state in which man has settled on as being what will keep things the way he likes it.
Order exists in all mammalian communities, family units, workers, head hincho etc etc. Sentience is an arbitrary term which exlcudes anything which doesn't use tools and have papaerwork.

Originally posted by shonuff
Religion is way for smart humans to lead not so smart humans. Often a way to instill universal morals to humanity. It's true power is in bringing people together for a common goal. It's true power is power over men. Power to push man in the right direction through morals. Morals are a way to social order. They are universal and independent of religion. Confuciunism proves such. Religion is a means to giving an animal reason to act civilised and the morals that keep a mass of humans working as one.
Social order existed before we got all political about it.

Rgds,
David

[shonuff]

Publication of research does not evolve the species. It's humans doing the science, not science doing the humans.

It's not the publication of research but the application. Science is system of organizing knowledge. Science didn't take us away from nature. It was leap in evolution that allowed us to discover this "method" we call science that made us more than man. Science didn't exactly make us less like animals.


Order exists in all mammalian communities, family units, workers, head hincho etc etc. Sentience is an arbitrary term which exlcudes anything which doesn't use tools and have papaerwork.

Wrong. There is no order. Rats have no leadership. Leopards are solitary. There is no social order is most mammalian species. Family units are not an order. Doesn't have anything to do with sentience. It just happens. You mistake many instinctual things animals do as order. Instinct is not order.