What went wrong? Question for the MMA crowd.

[Adam]

I've been thinking about this for a while. Please note that this is not intended as trolling.

Lots of people in the MA community, primarily people from the MMA clans, have begun to question the point of many practices used in differnemt martial arts, such as the kung fu stances, the crane stance from karate, the emphasis on high kicking in TKD, the lack of grappling techniques in many traditional styles.

My question is: Why are these moves even used? I asked a MAP member about this and got the answer that it was because those things were easy to peddle to the public, but those moves are from before the McDojo times. What is the reason for a master of martial arts to add seemingly pointless moves to his style if the purpose is to be effective in combat?

Seriously, what IS the point of this move? I'll be buggered if I can see it :)

[hwardo]

The way our kung fu is taught, we train in the crane stance to develop balance in all stations of our body. In combat, the only time you see that stance is when you are about to kick someone with a snapping kick, and it lasts for about 1/4 of a second. But if you do not have the fortitude to hold that 1/4 second stance for five minutes or an hour, than the stance will not be strong enough when you need it most.

I believe that most traditional forms of training-- when pure-- form a kind of total body/mind training. Many of the stance combinations we do seem tedious and unrealistic until you do them so much that they rewire your circuits to sink your weight, and advance, retreat, or counter in the most rooted and efficient manner without thought.

It is true, many modern martial arts have replaced and modified this process with no ill effect-- where horse stances and balance postures used to be, you find resistance training, and endurance work. I don't think that this dilutes traditional work anymore than it makes it obsolete-- it is simply a different approach to the same idea-- the construction of a superb fighter.

[Serpico]

From that stance I see a low block against a kick , front snap kick, a vicious uppercut, a back hand, a round kick, and about 50+ more techniques. Plus don't forget it helps with balance (as Hwardo already stated), and it also helps to preserve the tradition of the MA you study. The real question is, what do you see as the point of that move? BTW good question Adam :)

[Trent Tiemeyer]

How do you throw a vicious uppercut off one foot?

A lot of the more traditional moves are perfectly sound in theory, but never actually got out of the planning stage before being added to the syllabus.

[Cyph]

Originally posted by Serpico
From that stance I see a low block against a kick , front snap kick, a vicious uppercut, a back hand, a round kick, and about 50+ more techniques. Plus don't forget it helps with balance (as Hwardo already stated), and it also helps to preserve the tradition of the MA you study. The real question is, what do you see as the point of that move? BTW good question Adam :)

I see someone begging to be taken down :D

[hwardo]

Guys, try to imagine if someone froze your leg for a second on the way to a kick-- it is a transitional stance that a lot of traditional arts train in so that you are just as stable and balanced all the way through the kick as you are when you have both your feet planted.

The stance itself is not meant to be held in combat-- it is a training tool, and a fraction of an action.

On a secondary note, that kid is kinda ugly, huh? No offense if that's your cousin or something, Adam.

[dashao]

the lack of grappling techniques in many traditional styles.


i used to toatally agree with this except i just read an article that has changed my mind if someone has a knife on them and yuo grapple them you are screwed you are making it easier to be stabbed what if they have 2 knives one hidden?

then again i am stupid


the stance reminds me of a shaolin stance we use to get your balance up to scratch one hand is used to block the sun out of your eyes similar to that one but not exactly the same;)

[Cyph]

guest(shao), I don't really like my chances with a knife, either on the ground, or standing up..

however, at least on the ground I can control my opponent and his limbs to a better degree than standing up.. at least I think so.

I also see that guy leaving his jaw wide open begging to be knocked out.

[El Tejon]

I see an open gate with broken ribs waiting, teeth waiting to be knocked out of his head and bare feet begging to be stomped!:eek:

One has to see it from the different perspectives: body conditioning pursuant to the art or ****less pajama fighting interfering with combat.

I have no problem with the artistry of martial arts. However, we must always bear in mind that we are training to hurt others (and thus not hurt others) we should keep "fancy" stances in perspective of their original objective.

[Kwan Jang]

-The problem is that most practitioners, including the 'traditionalists' do not understand the original intent and application of the techniques. In the original combat versions of most trad. systems, there are no blocks (there are parries and re-directions, though) and most of the trad. "blocks" and stances were developed for either grappling or strike/grappling combos. Also, they work to either enhance the efficiency of your nervous system or to disrupt that of your opponent.
-I teach MMA, but if you know the real intent of the techniques in trad. MA, these are far from merely artistic or fancy movements, they are very effective when properly appiled. Many of them are tranitional movements as well. I know that I sometimes sound like a broken record on MAP about this, but far too many people "throw the baby out with the bathwater" in regards to this. Instead of knocking these techniques that don't seem to make sense. A wiser person would question if the application that they are being taught is accurate. The people from the generations who were in combat (not sport) fighting for their lives and to protect their families, homes and communities were far more hardcore in their training than most practitioners who do it for excersise, recreation, or to a large extent athletic glory. Their lives were on the line. If it wasn't effective, you didn't survive enough battles to pass the skills on. If what you passed on wasn't effective, the boys didn't come back home (though it was rather likely their opponents might come over for a visit and they may not be the most polite houseguests).
-I recommend asking a better quality of question, you are likely to find a better awnser. Another major factor is trying to accomidate the rules of martial sports. When a combat system/ art is tranlated to sport, it picks up limitations.As an athlete trying to win a contest, it's natural to focus on the things that will score more effectively in your training. it's also only human to slack on defending against (or at least put as muc effort into practicing to defend against) things that are either not allowed in your sport or that the protective equipment makes ineffective.
-I was once working out in a class w/ Frank Shamrock (he trains at my instructor's school 2-3 x/wk.) and we were focusing on groundfighting for the street, as opposed to the ring/octagon. The drill was working elbow strikes to the inner thigh inside the opponents guard to open him up forpunching down his centerlineI asked Frank why we didn't just strike to the open groin first to collapse the opponents "turtleshell", rather than expose ourselves to possible armbars,ect. by reaching/striking further down the body or towards the face. It seemed pretty obvious to me that if I punched a guy in the testicles first, all other targets would be a lot more available and I could do follow up with much less danger of being countered. Frank replied that in NHB, you wear a steel cup, so groin strikes are pretty useless. I reminded Frank that we were working street fighting or real combat instead of NHB. He basically said, "Oh, yeah. That would work a lot better."
-Now, I'm mentionng this not to at all put a great athlete and fighter like Frank down or to try to blemish his rep (far from it), but if someone with the obvious "killer instinct" (I hate this term since this is innacurate regarding combat between humans, but you get the drift) that Frank posseses as a fighter and competitior can become blind to such an openning due to his conditioning, it can happen to anyone.
-BTW, I am not opposed to martial sport, it CAN be a great learning and growing tool that can really help the arts to grow and evolve. When it is used in the right context and is taken in perspective. Even NHB and full contact sports have not only the limitations of rules, but also the intent is VERY different from combat. You are trying to win a conest between athletes rather than maim or kill an enemy as quickly as possible before he (or his allies) kill you. If this difference is taken into account, then sport can give you a safe way to test and evolve your combat skills. Only a sociopath would consider doing a lot of the nastier things to an opponent in even a "no rules" sporting contest. Most of the things you see in old trad. katas/forms are this kind of nasty stuff. However, when they started teaching MA in the schools to the kids, or to former enemies who have conquered their country in war, they used basically the same movements, but w/ a different (usually ineffective) application.

[Andrew Green]

A lot of times it has to do with sparring rules.

High kicks work under TKD rules.

Grappling is illegal in most popular forms of competition.

Look at old kung fu sparring video, they don't grapple.

Many systems/styles don't even make contact when they spar, or just touch contact.

The techniques they train work under the rules they train by.

[Terry Matthes]

What is the reason for a master of martial arts to add seemingly pointless moves to his style if the purpose is to be effective in combat?You hit the nail on the head. A lot of traditional styles aren't effective in combat. A lot of the moves in these styles are just kept in for the sake of tradition. Sport based Ma like judo and mma only use what works because if you can't beat an opponent with it then it is truly useless in a combat situation.

[Cain]

A lot of the moves in these styles are just kept in for the sake of tradition.

This has already been beat to death before.

Most people want all techniques to help directly with fighting ability when it is'nt so.

The crane stance ie balancing on one leg is for improving balance and rooting in stances.

The horse stance is again for proper rooting and muscular endurance.

The kicks are difficult to get up in a long stance where you have to force your front leg up to kick, it becomes fast natural after that to throw the same thing in a natural sparring sparring stance Not to forget that it's yet again rooting.

It does'nt mean they necessarrily ignore drills or sparring.

|Cain|

[fallout]

I was just lookin at that picture and it made me think, where traditional martial arts not created by people who needed to fight for survival? If this is the case then I would imagine that they would be more concerned with practical self-defense than the more complicated techniques, Serpico stated that he saw a large number of techniques that could be produced from the above stance, I am sure that this is true, although I think that most of you would agree that it does not look the most efficient stance for an all out street brawl, which I am presuming is what people in the past where preparing themselves for. If this is the case then how exactly did the above stance appear? Do you think it was originally a stance used for conditioning? I mean no disrespect to anyone and I hope I am not being presumptous I am just trying to learn more myself.:)

[Killerbee]

Well you have to keep in mind that TKD for example was something very different 200 years ago in Korea that it is today at your local strip mall.

[RubyMoon]

The young man's stance doesn't worry me so much as the video game in the corner of the dojo...

:eek:

[Serpico]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting
How do you throw a vicious uppercut off one foot?


Put the foot down first.

Originally posted by Cyph
I see someone begging to be taken down
No begging involved here, I get taken down all the time, uh *cough* *cough* I, uh, mean I'm conditioning my body for take downs right now. Yeah, that's it.


LMAO good eye RubyMoon

[Adam]

If the point of doing such a peculiar looking stance is to build leg strength and develop balance, why not do squats or lots of kihon/bag-kicking instead? That would IMO give you both a better workout and be more relevant to your fighting skill.

Please don't turn this into a discussion about the effectiveness of styles or individual TMA's in fighting, the point was to discuss the point of weird techniques and not just the crane stance either. For instance, what is the point of THIS:

[Cain]

Try staying in that position :D

Squats could be a good option, but we are talking about leg endurance and isometric strngth, and in the old days there were no weights, everyone had to rely on bodyweight conditioning.

|Cain|

EDIT - I have explained in my previous post how the front stance used in kicking could be used as a plyometric exercise. And rooting in stances is essential a horse stance is one of the better ways to develop it.

[hwardo]

It is a traditional way of developing your legs-- pre-bally's if you will.

Couple that with kung fu styles that are based on a philosophy of movement-- for instance, in eagle claw there will be segments of forms that include exaggerated flapping motions-- these are not intended for combat, rather they serve as a kind of vehicle for expressing an idea of how all movement should be. In mantis styles, (I'm fairly sure the above position comes from one) there is a focus on precision, balance, and point control. This is a kind of code to help the body learn to express those movements.

My point is that you can indeed train your legs with a squat rack, and it is highly effective, but it is not traditional. This is one of the many traditional ways martial artists used to train their legs. You can use a speed bag to train for precision, and a brand new "Bob" punching bag to train for fingerstrikes, and that is fine. Back in the day, in China, they didn't use those things-- they used stance work, hand techniques, etc.

Why is it so crazy to observe traditional methods of conditioning and martial arts training? Just because there are modern equivalents doesn't make these techniques outmoded or obsolete. It is simply different.

[Maximicus]

Before McDojos? There was such a time? Hahaha, No. People have bought "snake oil" since people could comunicate to eachother well enough to con 'em. WAY long ago I'd say there were MORE McDojos, since people NEEDED to know how to fight and there were NO regulations. Some people were peddling there product, same as now, same as ever.

[Adam]

I disagree. Back in the day, since people needed to learn how to fight better more than they do now, the weak dojos would have been weeded out because of the students getting themselves smashed. That's my theory on it. McDojoization is in it's golden age today.

[Maximicus]

"Back in the day" your "teacher" would have told you to avoid fighting. And how would you check his credentials? Students getting there butts whooped? He would just tell them "you were not far enough in your training, go clean my house and make me dinner, and we'll continue your training when you have proven you will stop creating trouble." Shifting the blame on the student. Don't think that MAs come from a secret magic mistical land where everyone was a Ninja. Hahahahahahaha, too many movies.

[Tireces]

I disagree somewhat, because even back in those days, weapons were where it was at. Unarmed combat was something that rarely came about on the practical battlefield, even back then. So it wasn't so hard-tested as you seem to believe there. People didn't go to war in karate gi's with empty hands. They went in armor with sharp weapons. I can definitely see Maximicus' scenario happening quite frequently. Despite what some may say, I think martial arts meeting "western skepticism" was good for it on a lot of levels.

[Andy Murray]

* Seeing as this threads supposed to be a question to the MMA people, I've moved it there instead of general discussion.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Alright. My thread now!

[Killerbee]

Squats could be a good option, but we are talking about leg endurance and isometric strngth, and in the old days there were no weights, everyone had to rely on bodyweight conditioning.

Thats not true, the okinawans have always trained with weights. I just think "traditional" systems use stances such as those for aesthetical reasons, making the art more of a performance art. Another reason for those strange stances could be rooted in the chinese old belief of chi.

Whatever it is, Id rather exercise my legs with squats and bagwork.

[Cain]

Squats = strength

IMO strength is one thing, agility and endurance is entirely something else ;)

|Cain|

[Smee]

Imagine a picture of a Muay Thai fighter lifting his lead leg to counter another MT guys low kick.

Now freeze the frame as he has his leg raised for that split second.

What stance does the MT guy's stance resemble? Crane.

Also, talking about first picture there are two practical options I see. I'm not from a TKD background so can't say if these are as taught in this style/form.

1. As above - defence against a low kick to lead leg. Rear arm raised to deliver follow up downward strike. Lead arm covers body.

2. Pull down and knee strike. Lead arm pulls down opponents head as knee is raised. Rear arm ready to downward strike to back of head.

I think many valid points have been made on both sides. However, the point about TMA is that these were borne out of a need to survive in a lawless period where weapons were regularly carried. The movements in the forms are therefore quick and dirty fighting methods to finish a scrap as soon as possible. If it didn't work it would soon have died out.

I agree that many original applications are watered down or lost and a lot of TMA should get back to being dirty fighters. There is a good guy in UK - Ian Abernethy - who has taken many of the "pointless" or "ineffectual" moves in Karate kata and illustrated real,effective techniques that are very practical. Thats what all TMA should strive towards IMO.

BTW - I'm a Hung Gar man. The 2nd pic looks like Monkey style to me.

Paul

[Maximicus]

If any good reason, I'd guess people would get into "wierd" stances in a fight to confuse the opponent. What are Judo fighters used to? Judo stances. If you do something the other guy dosn't know you will have an advantage since he will have to "think" out his moves rather than use his "instinct". Back then styles were secret, noone had seen "Karate kid," so no one would have known what to do against a Crane stance. Imagine if someone went into a crane stance in a boxing match, the opponent would think WTF?

[Syd]

Grappling is illegal in most popular forms of competition.

One has to wonder which MA's would be top of the heap if this rule was enforced for all UFC matches... hmmm;)

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Originally posted by Syd
One has to wonder which MA's would be top of the heap if this rule was enforced for all UFC matches... hmmm;)

Then we would have K1.

Or you could just look back pre-1993, before the UFC changed the face of the game.

[Syd]

Actually I don't know much about anything apart from UFC, we don't get much exposure to it in OZ. So who are the do-wells in K1 in terms of MA's and styles? Are they still MMA's or do we have any TMA's?

[Hannibal]

If you freeze any movement in time it will look pretty stupid. TKD forms are simply a way of rehearsing the techniques of the art in a set pattern. A kind of "stiff shadow boxing" if you like.

I don't do the "traditional thing" any more - and haven't for some time. Every so often though I "play" with stances, punches and kicks from my old days. You can get quite a good workout if you put your self into it.

For K1 try www.ko.sherdog.com

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting
How do you throw a vicious uppercut off one foot?



Easy. :D

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Alright. We ever have a MAP meetup, I'll show everyone how to do a proper uppercut.;)

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting
Alright. We ever have a MAP meetup, I'll show everyone how to do a proper uppercut.;)

Why limit yourself by one way ? :confused:

[Smee]

Ken off Streetfighter used to do a brilliant one legged uppercut!!! It had flames and everything. He even jumped into the air. It was the best!!!

:)

[Trent Tiemeyer]

I actually limit myself to TWO ways.

Right and left handed.:D

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting
I actually limit myself to TWO ways.

Right and left handed.:D

Ah, in that case, I'll be the one teaching you something should we meet. ;)

[Trent Tiemeyer]

BRING IT OOOOON, LITTLE MAN!

[Maximicus]

Hahahahahahahahaha. Muhuhahahahaha. Now this fight I want to see.:yeleyes:

[Andy Murray]

Bring a video recorder and a short tape. ;)

[Maximicus]

So, to keep on topic, will either of you use "exotic" styles or stances in this battle of the ages?:confused:

[Trent Tiemeyer]

If by "exotic" you mean pliers, then yes, they will come into play.

[Andy Murray]

That's what the freeze frame on your VCR is for.

You'll see Trent in all manner of stances before finally performing Wounded Elephant, Recumbent Rhinocerous and Snoozing Hippo! :D

[Maximicus]

Well here I was all ready for some MMA/Traditional MA tourny fightin ang you go all Pro Wrestling on us!:mad:


Beutifull comeback Andy!

[Trent Tiemeyer]

I will limit myself to only one tool, the left backhanded ho-slap.

And maybe the groin kick.

[Maximicus]

Man make up your mind, first weapons now slaps? We went from Ma to Pro wrestling to Jerry Springer in 3 posts!

[Andy Murray]

I'll limit myself to one tool also.

The one in front of me. :p

[Maximicus]

Now we've gone Deliverance too!:love: :love: :love:

[Andy Murray]

Hey doesn't everyone in Kansas play the Banjo?

[Maximicus]

Yeeee Haw! I'm Gonna' make you sqeel like a pig!

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Originally posted by Maximicus
Man make up your mind, first weapons now slaps? We went from Ma to Pro wrestling to Jerry Springer in 3 posts!

The pliers weren't for the fight, the were for pulling Andy's missing teeth out of my boot.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Hey doesn't everyone in Kansas play the Banjo?

Actually, I play a mean harmonica

[Andy Murray]

Keep em as a souvenir, I lost em years ago.

It's the ones gripping your jugular you should worry about.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting
Actually, I play a mean harmonica

Digga ding ding ding ding ding ding ding????

[Maximicus]

Yeah your talking about a BRIT here. If any teeth are stuck you are gonna want to dispose of the boots in a biohazard container.:D

[totality]

bwahaha...

but on a more serious note...is that you in your avatar, trent? because if it is, you, my friend, are bloody huge. and i'm jealous!

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Actually, that is Russian Greco-Roman wrestling legend Alexander Karelin. Went undefeated for over a decade. He is a monster, and is now on the Russian Parliament.

He is one of my many martial inspirations and heroes.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

And here is the full size of the avatar.

[stump]

I bet few people vote against him.....

scarey barsteward

[Trent Tiemeyer]

He's Michael Jordan popular over there.

Sorry, I forgot you were British.

He's David Beckham popular over there.

[CKava]

A Russian popular in America! Its like Rocky IV except the other way round :)

[Eero]

Originally posted by Kwan Jang
[B]-The problem is that most practitioners, including the 'traditionalists' do not understand the original intent and application of the techniques. In the original combat versions of most trad. systems, there are no blocks (there are parries and re-directions, though) and most of the trad. "blocks" and stances were developed for either grappling or strike/grappling combos. Also, they work to either enhance the efficiency of your nervous system or to disrupt that of your opponent.

This seems to be a big broblem with most of the traditional arts. Teachers either don't know the meaning of the techniques or fail to inform you about them. I would rather have the teacher saying that this curious technique has a meaning, but I'm not going to teach it to you yet, rather than not to explain it at all.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

CKava, he's popular in Russia. Only us cauliflower ear types know of him here.

[Sonshu]

I see a super double leg takedown option!

Then

GnP all the way on his 9 year old ass!


----------------


No seriously I am long done with all these types of moves and stances, Taijitsu (my main stay I guess) does a lot of it and there are many mystical and ancient reasons for it but IMO it should stay as ancient as its not practical for the modern day. People are bigger, heavier now and have more to put behind punches than the slighter little Asians who created these arts. Many could use an overhaul to the new millennium. However there are some amazing people who can do something with this type of stance. 99.9% of us cant.

This will be sold in some places as self defence - lets all be honest.

[Nurofen]

Brilliant thread :)
I would just like to reiterate(sp?) that those unusual/strange/bizzare/bloody stupid stances are not a kind of ready stance, they are beginning/middle/end parts of certain moves.

I for instance use horse stance all the time while throwing/locking/blocking/manouvering and the reason why I can is because I spent a lot of time in horse stance.
Same deal with crane and cat stance. After training to use them they become a useful part of my arsenal.

[Oversoul]

Brilliant thread :)
I would just like to reiterate(sp?) that those unusual/strange/bizzare/bloody stupid stances are not a kind of ready stance, they are beginning/middle/end parts of certain moves.

I for instance use horse stance all the time while throwing/locking/blocking/manouvering and the reason why I can is because I spent a lot of time in horse stance.
Same deal with crane and cat stance. After training to use them they become a useful part of my arsenal.

Thread necromancy!

[rubberband]

from my experience one legged stances usually imply jumping away and kicking or falling to the hip and kicking or trapping the knee in a lock...

as for stances having relevance... I wasn't around back in the day... so like eveyone else I must speculate... I think they probably helped students remember the techniques they practiced as well as offering reference positions for specific techniques much like the positions of jiu jutsu have for decades...

I think the main confusion lies in the fact that these positions are demonstrated in space... grapplers use positions in reference to an opponents position only it usually involves direct body contact... strikers also use postions relative to an opponent, only they are in space and are meant to control through perception...

Back in high school I learned about the monkey stace shown above from a guy who's name escapes me... but, mostly the stace involves falling to the the ground and kind of sliding forward and kicking people in the groin or scissoring their knee with the feet... I have seen similar moves done in the old days of Pancrase to get heel hooks... only the guy didn't start standing in the stance... also we should not forget that B.J. Penn uses something similar to this stance to block knees... I think the value of this stance is not the stance so much as the techniques it reminds me of... which is where I got the idea that stances might simply be memory tools... even though I can't remember the dudes name... :rolleyes:

anyway that is my two cents...

oh and by the way I just moved to Olathe Kansas if anyone is interested in training some...

take care, steve