Skinny ******* Diet

[Gary]

Excuse the title, it is the name of the diet!

I read this article on the tube this morning and it left me silently fuming:

A craving for meat is a weighty issue | Metro.co.uk (http://www.metro.co.uk/lifestyle/article.html?A_craving_for_meat_is_a_weighty_issue&in_article_id=685013&in_page_id=194)

Stuff like:


'Men in particular are stuck on the idea that you have to load up on protein to get toned,' says Barnouin, who gave up modelling ten years ago to study holistic nutrition. 'But it's a myth.

Protein and carbohydrates have the same amount of calories per gram. However, meat is high in fat and nearly half that fat is saturated.'
This demonstartes that the authors knowledge of nutrition is sorely lacking, especially when paired with:


'This will be tough for some guys,' agrees Freedman. 'They are conditioned to think “real men” eat steak and hamburgers but research shows there is a strong correlation between eating meat and certain illnesses.
Which ignores a lot of evidence about what in meat causes those diseases, plus the dangers of following a purely vegan diet as they seem to suggest.

[Banpen Fugyo]

'Even if you never look like Brad Pitt, if you're eating well and exercising, you'll be healthier, happier and more confident.'

lol...

1: Pick a smallish/weak (but notoriously sexy) celebrity
2: Say that you wont even reach his skinny size
3: Convince readers that they don't care
4: Brainwash some more
5: ?????
6: Profit!!!

[CosmicFish]

if you're eating well and exercising, you'll be healthier, happier and more confident.
I can vouch for this. I had a 400g steak for my lunch today and lately I've been squatting till I can barely walk up stairs. Oh wait, that wasn't the point the article wanted to make? :evil:

[Van Zandt]

"Protein can make us fat."

What an idiot.

There is only one law of dieting & weight loss people need to know about: No matter what you eat, if you burn off more calories than you consume, you will lose weight. If this fact was drilled into kids during school then maybe we wouldn't have a nation of fad lovers gullible enough to buy trash written by veggie warriors like Freedman and Barnouin.

[adouglasmhor]

This seems to make more of a case for protein in the diet over carbs, ignore the stuff about soy, it's more about the protein and how your body proccess it and how satiated we feel after eating it. The media just seized on the Soya Sausage bit, meat sausages can be full of rusk too.

http://www.medindia.net/news/Spice-Up-Your-Diet-With-Soya-Sausages-53014-1.htm

http://news.scotsman.com/health/Don39t-be-a-silly-sausage.5364021.jp

[Topher]

No matter what you eat, if you burn off more calories than you consume, you will lose weight.

The government should make it law for signs saying this to be placed in the dieting section of every bookshop!

[Yohan]

So I've been taking this biology class recently, and it's fascinating in terms of learning about biochemistry of different food particles. Lipids, or fats, are fatty acids (hydrocarbons) that bond to the glycogen molecule, which has 3 sites for bonding fatty acids. Each fatty acid can be saturated or unsaturated. In a saturated fat molecule, it has hydrogen molecules bonded to each site. In an unsaturated fat molecule, it has double bonds between carbons, so that hydrogen molecules can't bond to each site, like this:

Saturated fat:

| H H H H H H
| | | | | | |
OH-C - C - C - C -C - C - H
| | | | | | |
| H H H H H H

Unsaturated fat:

| H H H H H H
| | | | | | |
OH-C - C = C = C -C - C - H
| | | | | |
| H H H H H

So the main real difference is higher bond energy in the saturated fat, making it a more efficient mechanism for energy storage. It also means that saturated fats are solid at room temperature, and unsaturated fats are liquid, the theory being that saturated fats gum up arteries more.

[Knight_Errant]

"Oh, let's take the most vulnerable part of the audience possible and throw a load of crap at them"
Good effort, morons :'(

[Omicron]

Ohhhhh yes. This thing. I was in the bookstore with a few hours to kill the other day, and I saw their book for men sitting there. I picked it up, and was totally shocked at how utterly full of garbage it is. I was with them on the whole quitting smoking/excessive drinking part, but as soon as they made their argument for not eating meat they lost me.

Now, I used to be a vegetarian, and so I shouldn't be THAT hard to convince about why we should/should not eat meat, but their argument is garbage. Firstly, they insist on calling meat "rotting animal carcass", which really isn't true. It gets worse though. They tell you to imagine the biggest, baddest predators out there, like lions and tigers. Those animals have giant claws and meat tearing teeth, and can easily take down large animals as prey for their dinner. Then, they say, look at yourself: short, useless fingernails, small teeth, and almost zero speed or strength compared to just about any animal we eat as meat. Could you kill one with your bare hands and eat it raw? No. Our highly developed brains have allowed us to develop tools and strategies for hunting animals and preparing meat that we would never have had in the wild, and therefore eating meat is not a natural thing for humans to do.

What utter BS. I'm sorry, but if this kind of misinformation can spread in a best-selling book, there is something seriously wrong with the western education system. Humans don't have big claws and teeth because we don't need them. Where lions and tigers have "chosen" to evolve them as tools for hunting, we have "chosen" to evolve sophisticated brains that allow us to build our own tools. Humans in the wild were definitely tool-users, and we evolved from a whole lineage of intermediate tool users between us and our primate ancestors. These intermediates would have been less and less dependent on tools and more dependent on physical characteristics the farther back down the genetic tree you go; humans have evolved over millions of years of tool-use to no longer require the same physical equipment other predators do. Spears, axes, and knives are our claws and teeth, and the use of fire for cooking aids our digestive system. Evolutionarily speaking, there is no reason for us to have claws AND use tools...it would be a waste of biological energy.

Obviously the authors of this book didn't pay attention in biology class. Or they're too stupid to understand. Or they don't care, and are just being controversially trendy to make a buck in the bestseller market. I'm going to guess it's a combination of all three.

[Topher]

*waits for this book to be promoted by Oprah* :rolleyes: :mad:

[iammartialarts]

There is a lot of evidence for meat causing illnesses mainly because of the protein in it. Look up the China Study, biggest nutritional study ever.

[slipthejab]

There is a lot of evidence for meat causing illnesses mainly because of the protein in it. Look up the China Study, biggest nutritional study ever.

Man.. come on... seriously.

You keep referring to this China Study... the biggest nutritional study ever. Would you mind actually posting a link to it if you've studied it so in depth then it should be no problem.

You are beginning to sound like the anti-milk anti-meat agenda poster boy... judging by your profile pic... it could very well be on target. :p

[CosmicFish]

There is a lot of evidence for meat causing illnesses mainly because of the protein in it. Look up the China Study, biggest nutritional study ever.
Specifically the protein found in meat, or all protein in general? (And why, regardless of your answer?)

And once again - got a link to this Chnia study?

[Banpen Fugyo]

Man.. come on... seriously.

You keep referring to this China Study... the biggest nutritional study ever. Would you mind actually posting a link to it if you've studied it so in depth then it should be no problem.

You are beginning to sound like the anti-milk anti-meat agenda poster boy... judging by your profile pic... it could very well be on target. :p

Well I mean... the last post I saw from him was this one:

dont eat the cheese, the apples, watermelon and peanut butter are good, and most the others.

For night eat a lot of carbs, a good source is oat bran. Eat like 4-5 bowls and than eat mainly protein during the day.

Id say eat about 10 meals of protein a day smaller meals like the size of 3-4 jumbo eggs. or salmon or something

So who knows???

[Van Zandt]

There is a lot of evidence for meat causing illnesses mainly because of the protein in it. Look up the China Study, biggest nutritional study ever.

Illnesses related to the consumption of protein (such as cancers of the digestive tract) have more to do with the cooking method than the meat itself. For example, deep fried chicken can increase your odds of developing bowel cancer whereas steamed skinless chicken doesn't increase the odds at all. This is because carcinogens (cancer causing toxins) are released when any type of meat is cooked at temperatures exceeding 400 degrees farenheit.

Chemicals called heterocyclic amines (HCAs) are formed when amino acids from the meat and creatine (a chemical found in muscles) are cooked at high temperatures. HCAs are known as carcinogens in animals. The focus should not be on avoiding meat, but cooking it in a healthy way.

[Frodocious]

There is also some evidence to suggest that lean, grass fed animals are a better source for meat than fattier, intensively farmed, grain fed animals, as we more are adapted to lean protein sources (due to our hunter-gatherer roots).

Generally it is much more complicated than just saying 'meat is bad for you'. Many people who suffer from allegedly meat-induced illnesses eat highly processed meat, lots of processed carbs (and other processed foods), relatively little vegetables or fruit and don't do much exercise.

[Van Zandt]

Many people who suffer from allegedly meat-induced illnesses eat highly processed meat, lots of processed carbs (and other processed foods), relatively little vegetables or fruit and don't do much exercise.

Which, sadly, the authors of that godawful book seem to think is everyone and anyone who eats meat! These people must work with some dodgy equation...

Eye catching title + pseudo science x gullible audience = Amazon.com top ten list.

[Stuart H]

Elastin is only found in connective tissues, i.e. animal products. Human DNA codes for two forms of elastase. We are evolved to eat meat - the fat profile of wild animals compared to feedlot beef, pork etc is another matter, but suffice to say animal proteins are not harmful.

End of.

[CosmicFish]

If I can be slightly facile here for a moment, we're made of meat. Surely that alone qualifies it to be one of the best food sorces availble to us?

[Van Zandt]

If I can be slightly facile here for a moment, we're madeof meat. Surely that alone qualifies it to be one of the best food sorces availble to us?

You are what you eat, and all that. Though if I was what I eat, I'd be a Big Mac and chocolate 'shake on legs!

[Omicron]

OK, let's look at this rationally for a moment.

Let's say you're lost out in the wilderness somewhere. Maybe you are the lone survivor of a plane that crashed into a forest somewhere. After being alone and starving for a few days, you come across a dead animal that seems to have been recently killed by wolves or a bear or something. Let's even say you have the ability to start a fire...maybe you have a cigarette lighter or something with you. IF you were dying of starvation, WOULD you be able to eat the animal for nutrition?

The answer, of course, is yes. Humans are capable of eating meat. We have evolved that ability as a survival tool. If a cow was lost in the wilderness, with nothing to survive on but meat, it would soon die. A cow does not have the teeth nor the digestive system to successfully process meat for nutrition. A cow, or any other herbivore, would not even be TEMPTED to eat meat it found...nature has wired their brains to know what is and what is not food. Just as grass isn't something we *feel* we should eat when we get hungry, meat isn't something herbivores *feel* they should eat. We are clearly not herbivores.

Yes we can eat meat. The only real question is how much of it is healthy on a daily basis, and how do artificial, processed meat products affect us? Those are debatable points. Whether or not humans are meant to eat meat is not.

[Van Zandt]

Screw meat, I want some of what he's having:

YouTube - Man vs. Wild : Eating Giant Larva

[iammartialarts]

china study is a book, just google china study to learn about it, if you have a big library around you they probably have it.

and from personal experience, I've noted a way increase in energy after i quit eating meat and dairy, though sometimes I still eat them if I go out to eat since they do taste so good.

[Stuart H]

china study is a book, just google china study to learn about it, if you have a big library around you they probably have it.

and from personal experience, I've noted a way increase in energy after i quit eating meat and dairy, though sometimes I still eat them if I go out to eat since they do taste so good.

Anecdotal evidence is not scientific, and as we're interested in the science of nutrition, please avoid using such anecdotes in future.

[CosmicFish]

Anecdotal evidence is not scientific, and as we're interested in the science of nutrition, please avoid using such anecdotes in future.
Sorry mate but I have to pull you up on this. He's perfectly entitled to share anecdotal evidence on these forums if he wants to, provided he makes it clear that it is anecdotal evidence (which he has in this case). After all, these forums are as much for the sharing of personal opinions and experiences as for the sharing of facts.

[Van Zandt]

Man, cutting out dairy is something I could never do. Each to their own, but I'd cry if I didn't have my daily dose of 4 pints of Cravendale skimmed milk. Filtered for purity. 0.1% fat. Oh baby...

[Gary]

china study is a book, just google china study to learn about it, if you have a big library around you they probably have it.

and from personal experience, I've noted a way increase in energy after i quit eating meat and dairy, though sometimes I still eat them if I go out to eat since they do taste so good.
The china study is a book, not any kind of peer reviewed scientific study. The writers had strong vegetarian associations and drew a number of conclusions based on cherry picked evidence. There's plenty of criticism for it too, to list a couple of quick sources:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=385

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html


Just out of interest, before you quit meat and dairy how much fruit and veg was in your diet? A boost in energy levels is commonly reported by new vegetarians and is often attributed to the increase in minerals and vitamins from the deficient state many people are in.

[slipthejab]

Much as I suspected.

Scant conclusive scientific fact.... combined with an anti-milk agenda and loose vegetarianism. :p

[Omicron]

A boost in energy levels is commonly reported by new vegetarians and is often attributed to the increase in minerals and vitamins from the deficient state many people are in.

Just gonna quote that again, because it bears repeating. Many of the touted "benefits" of vegetarianism are really just caused by people eating the proper amount of fruits and vegetables in their diet. Many people eat waaaay more meat than is healthy for them, but that doesn't mean we should stop eating it entirely.

It's sort of like how studies often find that people who are overweight are more prone to disease: it's usually not the fat itself that causes illness, but the lack of physical activity and proper diet indicated by the person's obesity. Similarly, people who eat too much meat are not only ingesting excessive amounts of it, but they are usually not taking in the correct amount of fruits and vegetables either.

I used to work as a waiter, and I was always amazed at how many people would order a meat or fish dish, eat all the meat, but leave the vegetables on their plate untouched. It's really shocking how many people would rather we "left the vegetables out."

[Gary]

I used to work as a waiter, and I was always amazed at how many people would order a meat or fish dish, eat all the meat, but leave the vegetables on their plate untouched. It's really shocking how many people would rather we "left the vegetables out."
It's crazy how few fruit and veg we eat.

For example I've seen people in the UK eating the 'Mediterranean Diet' quoting a list of facts and figures and then proceeding to eat mostly pasta and pizza. If you go to an Italian supermarket you'll see it's fairly normal to see shopping baskets half full of vegetables and a little fruit, topped up with fish, meat and a few modern foods. It's completely the opposite of many US/UK shopping baskets which are packed with modern food and if you're lucky a little veg and a couple of cartons of fruit juice in an effort to eat healthy.

Then there's portion control, a UK spaghetti bolognese is generally a larger portion than in Italy, and often with a lot more spaghetti and less bolognese. If you served up a UK portion in Italy they'd consider you to be a glutton!

[Omicron]

Then there's portion control, a UK spaghetti bolognese is generally a larger portion than in Italy, and often with a lot more spaghetti and less bolognese. If you served up a UK portion in Italy they'd consider you to be a glutton!

Reminds me of a pasta place here in town. I've never been, but it's a favourite among the younger crowd. Apparently, the portions are so large that you get a prize if you can finish your meal in one sitting. If that doesn't show how irresponsible our society has gotten when it comes to portion control, I don't know what does.

[Van Zandt]

Apparently, the portions are so large that you get a prize if you can finish your meal in one sitting.

*Sigh* If only Burger King did the same, I'd be a millionaire by now :(

[benitez4]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superfoot View Post
No matter what you eat, if you burn off more calories than you consume, you will lose weight.

[Topher]
The government should make it law for signs saying this to be placed in the dieting section of every bookshop!

Hello! I am so sick of hearing about this or that fad diet. Honestly, eat what your body requires. If you exercise, your body is going to want more. This is probably logical somewhere in the annals of biology or physiology or some other field I didn't bother to study (sorry), but I stand by my admiration for both of the above comments: I am a mother (x?). And slender. Still. Yeah. It does come down to diet--by which I mean meat and vegetables. They're good for you, it's true. And exercise is a good thing.

[H2oWings]

Meat or vegetarian diet is a personal choice. As my MA training & life experience grows, I find that- for me, from karmic & health standpoints, meat is not the best choice. Plenty of reasons for this, which I'll share if you want. Plenty of protein available from non meat sources. But that is only my choice, for me. I'd never presume to push my preferences on others, IMHO, that's obnoxious & off putting...& btw, cows, buffalo, horses, & even the baleen whale...all powerful animals, made of masses of muscle, & vegetarians, all :)

[Frodocious]

..& btw, cows, buffalo, horses, & even the baleen whale...all powerful animals, made of masses of muscle, & vegetarians, all

Not true. Baleen whales eat zooplankton (animal plankton), such as krill and copepods (small crustaceans), amphipods, worms, squid and small fish.

[Omicron]

all powerful animals, made of masses of muscle, & vegetarians, all :)

And all with very digestive systems very different from those of humans. A human could not even survive on a diet of mostly grass similar to that of these animals, much less become a "mass of muscle". Large herbivores have specialized digestive systems (multiple stomachs, long intestines, rumination, etc.) that allow them to effectively break down the tough plants they eat. Humans do not have such a digestive system. We can only eat certain plants, and many of the nutrients we need (e.g. essential amino acids) are most easily found in meat. Again, this points to the fact that in nature, humans were at least part-time meat eaters.

This of course is not a moral or ethical argument regarding the rightness or wrongness of eating meat. From a purely physiological perspective though, meat is an important part of a healthy diet, if eaten in the proper amount. If you want to believe in karma (:rolleyes:) that's a whole different ball game, but, as we've seen with in the Skinny B**** books, most people who claim that meat is unhealthy are either misinformed or lying.

[H2oWings]

And all with very digestive systems very different from those of humans.and many of the nutrients we need (e.g. essential amino acids) are most easily found in meat. Best (for me) in terms of type of protein broken down by human dentition & digestive enzymes? No. PROOF: When ppl end up in the operating theatre or autopsy table, the volume of rotten meat remaining in the gut for many weeks following ingestion is really a shock to see. Meat rots at body temperature (like it decomposes in the sun). Rotting meat in the gut causes dangerous levels of toxicity. Undigested meat sits in our gut for such a long time, because, in addition to our teeth being unable to completely break it down mechanically, our saliva & gut enzymes can't completely break it down chemically. :) without being more graphic, I'll just share that I've seen it, & it's impressive.

in nature, humans were at least part-time meat eaters.[/QUOTE] Yes...our saliva & dental anatomy support this:)

This of course is not a moral or ethical argument regarding the rightness or wrongness of eating meat.[/QUOTE] Since the moral aspect is half the reason I don't eat meat, it's relevant. When an animal is about to be killed, s/he knows it, & gets very scared. ALL scared living beings dump an enormous amount of stress hormone into the body (us too). This stress hormone is present in the meat, & it is NOT GOOD for us to eat. PROOF-visit a slaughterhouse. Google "downed cow" to confirm the fear & pain these animals experience. Research widespread diseases such as the swine flu (originated from animals being raised for slaughter in close quarters getting sick from the lack of space, & passing illness to people). You may already know how e.coli gets into meat isn't a handwashing issue in the restaurant or store;it's animal feces getting mixed up in the meat during the slaughter process. I could go on, but you get the idea. I can only speak for myself, these are some of the things that influenced me.

From a purely physiological perspective though, meat is an important part of a healthy diet[/QUOTE] Healthy is a matter of opinion...:) Everyone is welcome to their opinion, including me...I feel it's unhealthy on a physiological & spiritual level to eat meat, so I don't, but most of my friends are hard core omnivoures, as is my dear significant other, & I love them all, very much :) I spend a lot of time at my work, many shared meals w/co workers....most of my coworkers have no clue about my diet. :) I eat what I eat, they eat what they eat, it's all good :) I'm just not that pressed to influence the food choices of competent adults:):)

If you want to believe in karma (:rolleyes:) that's a whole different ball game,[/QUOTE] :) Eyerolling is perfectly OK :)For me, it's like "believing" in air. Believe or don't believe, it's still there, & we'd all know immediately if it wasn't :)

but, as we've seen with in the Skinny B**** books, most people who claim that meat is unhealthy are either misinformed or lying.[/QUOTE] :)Wow. That's a pretty strong statement...:)Still, I won't argue there, can't really comment on most people as I don't know what's in their minds...can only speak for myself...I am very friendly, glad to discuss this, & I'm neither misinformed, nor lying... :)

[H2oWings]

Not true. Baleen whales eat zooplankton (animal plankton), such as krill and copepods (small crustaceans), amphipods, worms, squid and small fish.
I stand corrected :-) I honestly thought baleens ate algae....how about the manatee? I think these sweet creatures are vegetarian, but I don't know...I'm asking...?

[Banpen Fugyo]

Sounds like a bad FEMA youtube video...

[slipthejab]

Oh my... that post is dire in so many respects. :p

[slipthejab]

I stand corrected :-) I honestly thought baleens ate algae....how about the manatee? I think these sweet creatures are vegetarian, but I don't know...I'm asking...?

lol... ok go exist on algae and see how far it gets you as a human. :p

[Gary]

Best (for me) in terms of type of protein broken down by human dentition & digestive enzymes? No. PROOF: When ppl end up in the operating theatre or autopsy table, the volume of rotten meat remaining in the gut for many weeks following ingestion is really a shock to see. Meat rots at body temperature (like it decomposes in the sun). Rotting meat in the gut causes dangerous levels of toxicity. Undigested meat sits in our gut for such a long time, because, in addition to our teeth being unable to completely break it down mechanically, our saliva & gut enzymes can't completely break it down chemically. without being more graphic, I'll just share that I've seen it, & it's impressive.
From a physiological point of view we're omnivores. To get a complete amino acid profile from just vegetables is extremely difficult. Meat does not sit in your stomach for weeks, unless you're constipated food will take around 24 hours to travel through the gut. The only similarity to rotting that meat undergoes is that it's being digested by us and our chemicals, not microbes in the air or it's own chemicals. The fallacy becomes obvious when you consider how these medical professionals knew how old the meat in the gut was.

Before any major surgery you fast for 24 hours so that you wont have food in your gut, how they can not only recognise the exact meat and when it was ingested but then also distinguish between digestion of chewed food that's passed through the digestive tract from rotted food that's passed through is a mystery. It's pure propaganda.

Yes...our saliva & dental anatomy support this
We're omnivores, our entire physiology supports this.

Since the moral aspect is half the reason I don't eat meat, it's relevant. When an animal is about to be killed, s/he knows it, & gets very scared. ALL scared living beings dump an enormous amount of stress hormone into the body (us too). This stress hormone is present in the meat, & it is NOT GOOD for us to eat. PROOF-visit a slaughterhouse. Google "downed cow" to confirm the fear & pain these animals experience. Research widespread diseases such as the swine flu (originated from animals being raised for slaughter in close quarters getting sick from the lack of space, & passing illness to people). You may already know how e.coli gets into meat isn't a handwashing issue in the restaurant or store;it's animal feces getting mixed up in the meat during the slaughter process. I could go on, but you get the idea. I can only speak for myself, these are some of the things that influenced me.
Nonsense. How much 'stress hormone' (which one? Adrenalin, Cortisol, GH, Norepinephrine?) do you think is released whenever we've naturally hunted animals in the past 100,000 years? We can't digest these hormones orally even if we wanted to, the liver will break down the tiny amounts which may still reside in meat after cooking.

Healthy is a matter of opinion... Everyone is welcome to their opinion, including me...I feel it's unhealthy on a physiological & spiritual level to eat meat, so I don't, but most of my friends are hard core omnivoures, as is my dear significant other, & I love them all, very much I spend a lot of time at my work, many shared meals w/co workers....most of my coworkers have no clue about my diet. I eat what I eat, they eat what they eat, it's all good I'm just not that pressed to influence the food choices of competent adults
Healthy is not a matter of opinion, otherwise fast food chains wouldn't be so heavily restricted on how they advertise. I might feel that eating a kilo of jelly babies everyday is healthy but it doesn't make it true.

[CosmicFish]

Nonsense. How much 'stress hormone' (which one? Adrenalin, Cortisol, GH, Norepinephrine?) do you think is released whenever we've naturally hunted animals in the past 100,000 years?
Coma's already covered it but I just wanted to stress this part. If you kill an animal in a slaughterhouse it'll suffer a hell of a lot less than if it's being chased by a hungry predator. Plus, going back to the "we've evolved to eat these things" argument again, our ancestors kills would have been flooded with these chemicals too so I'm going to presume that we've evolved digestions to handle this.

[Moi]

Can we all at least agree to post in the same font and colour please?

[Omicron]

A lot of this has already been covered by coma's excellent post, but I have a few things to add.

Rotting meat in the gut causes dangerous levels of toxicity. Undigested meat sits in our gut for such a long time, because, in addition to our teeth being unable to completely break it down mechanically, our saliva & gut enzymes can't completely break it down chemically.

Evidence, please? Saying "I've seen it" is sadly not good enough proof in this type of inquiry. And just what do you mean by "toxicity"? The human digestive system is already extremely toxic by most standards; the gastric juices in the stomach can get as low as pH 0.7, which is EXTREMELY acidic. Just what is in this "rotting" meat that is toxic? And, if our saliva and extremely acidic gut enzymes can't break down the meat we eat, what is going to happen to the huge steak I had for dinner tonight? Is it with me for life? And yes, I was thinking about this thread while I ate it :p

By the way, all this inaccurate use of the word "rotten" is beginning to get tiresome.

Since the moral aspect is half the reason I don't eat meat, it's relevant. When an animal is about to be killed, s/he knows it, & gets very scared.

I'm going to stop you right there. I'm not sure whether animals really do know they are about to be killed...I'd expect to see a lot more attempted escapes from slaughterhouses if animals were smart enough to perceive something like that. Still, making a moral argument against eating meat is much, much stronger than saying it's unhealthy. As I said, I used to be a vegetarian, and I was so for moral reasons. I did not believe it was right to kill animals for food in a modern age where we can obtain all the nutrition we need from non-meat sources (although with a great deal of difficulty). If you choose to be a vegetarian for this reason, I think you're making a more respectable argument.

ALL scared living beings dump an enormous amount of stress hormone into the body (us too). This stress hormone is present in the meat, & it is NOT GOOD for us to eat. PROOF-visit a slaughterhouse. Google "downed cow" to confirm the fear & pain these animals experience. Research widespread diseases such as the swine flu (originated from animals being raised for slaughter in close quarters getting sick from the lack of space, & passing illness to people). You may already know how e.coli gets into meat isn't a handwashing issue in the restaurant or store;it's animal feces getting mixed up in the meat during the slaughter process. I could go on, but you get the idea. I can only speak for myself, these are some of the things that influenced me.

Firstly, as has already been said, just what "stress hormone" do you mean? Can you please provide some exact names, as well as the physiological effects they have on the human body? I'd be especially interested to see how they manage to avoid being digested along with the rest of the food we eat, and how they are somehow directly absorbed into the body.

Secondly, your statement regarding the conditions we keep animals in prior to slaughter leads to a total non sequitur. For one thing, not all farms follow the same practices; it is possible, at least where I live, to buy meat produced from organic, "free range" meat farms that do not keep animals in such conditions. Yes, keeping large numbers of animals in close quarters with each other and with humans is a health risk, but I fail to see how this has anything at all to do with how healthy it is for us to eat meat. Bacteria and viruses grow and evolve just like everything else, and we've been trading diseases with animals since at least the beginning of the agricultural revolution. It's an unfortunate part of being alive on planet Earth. We share the planet with all sorts of other life, diseases included. They get passed from human to human, and, occasionally, from animal to human. This in no way affects our ability to healthily digest meat.

Yes, there are many changes that can and should be made to the way many farms treat, store, and slaughter animals. Again though, this thread is a discussion of the healthiness of a diet containing meat. The two are only very distantly related.

Healthy is a matter of opinion...:) Everyone is welcome to their opinion, including me...I feel it's unhealthy on a physiological & spiritual level to eat meat, so I don't...

As has already been said, healthy is really not a matter of opinion. Some things are healthy, others are not. Everyone can make decisions on what they choose to eat, but whether or not these are healthy choices is not a subjective question. Everyone is welcome to his or her opinion, but some opinions are wrong.

:) Eyerolling is perfectly OK :)For me, it's like "believing" in air. Believe or don't believe, it's still there, & we'd all know immediately if it wasn't :)

I'm not really gonna touch this one, because getting into an argument about Karma would seriously derail this thread. Suffice it to say that you have a lot of proving to do if you're going to convince many people that it exists.

I am very friendly, glad to discuss this, & I'm neither misinformed, nor lying... :)

I'm glad we can have a civilized debate about this topic. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you do appear to be somewhat misinformed on many of the claims you have made. They either do not apply to the physiology behind the digestion of meat, or they are backed up by some fairly spurious reasoning and evidence.

[Frodocious]

I stand corrected :-) I honestly thought baleens ate algae....how about the manatee? I think these sweet creatures are vegetarian, but I don't know...I'm asking...?

Primarily they are vegetarian, eating a variety of seagrass species. However, they have been known to eat small animals (probably by accident when it is attached to the plant matter they consume) and there is some anecdotal evidence that they will, very occasionally, eat small fish. However, millions of years of evolution have adapted them to live off a diet based solely on plant matter, the same is not true of humans.

[Stuart H]

ALL scared living beings dump an enormous amount of stress hormone into the body (us too). This stress hormone is present in the meat, & it is NOT GOOD for us to eat.

How do you think this "stress hormone" is transmitted around the body? Any hormone will be transmitted via the bloodstream, and it's not going to be in the body long as the slaughtered animal is exsanguinated.

Please go and read a biology textbook and go visit an abattoir that conforms to EU standards, and you'll find a bit more peace of mind from eating animal products.

[Dhalsim-on]

So you really think that all the meat you buy is completely free of any blood?! That's simply not true my friend.

Also whilst it is true that the vast majority of hormones will be in the bloodstream, you also find hormones being shared cell to cell within the tissue itself, cell-specific reactions via ducts.

You DO find hormones in meat, though i'm not sure if you'd find cortisol and other stress hormones. The fact that hormones introduced to cattle can be found in some batches of meat was the reason growth hormones were banned from EU cattle in 1988.

I suggest being more cautious in your posts... though I could probably take my own advice there too! :)