Yoshida chokes out Gracie

[Syd]

Chalk one up for Judo ;) I saw some footage, very briefly, of the end of the Yoshida/Gracie match where Yoshida chokes out Gracie. Has anyone seen the match in it's entirety?

Best, Syd

[Andrew Green]

that was there first match.

Gracie was not out.

He jumped up and contested immediately, something hard to do as he was supposed to be unconcsious.

As I understand Yoshida told the ref he was "out", the ref stopped it. But he wasn't out.

Had the ref not stopped it would Yoshida have sunk the choke? Who knows, but he hadn't at the time the fight was stopped.

The last fight went the distance, Royce apparently dominated, but there was no judges so it was called a draw.

[Syd]

Thanks Andrew,

I haven't had the benefit of seeing the full length deal but I can tell you from the footage I've seen Gracies arms both go limp and he's swimming in la la land. I think Yoshida quite rightly was calling on the ref because it looked like Gracie wouldn't tap out and perhaps Yoshida was actually being concerned for the opponent and was asking for some compassionate intervention from the ref. Hey, maybe I'm wrong but Gracie looked like he was 98% out to me.

Best, Syd

[YODA]

Sounds more like the Royce Gracie V Wallid Ishmail footage.

Do you have a link to the clip you have?

[Syd]

No it's definately Yoshida, you see his face and the guy is definately Japanese. At this time Yoshida had his hair bleached so it has that funny orange colour. I'll dig up a link for the clip, I have it downloaded but there's no way to post that. I'll try and get it...

[YODA]

Thanks - I've seen photos and spoken to someone who was at the fight - they both suggest that Royce was never in any danger.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Technically, the fight was supposed to allow no ref stoppages, which is strange, considering the ref stoppage.

[Syd]

O.K guys here it is... in hindsight it's difficult to tell whats going on but the clip was titled that Gracie was choked so almost by suggestion you assume it's so. What do you think?

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/video/GracieYoshida.wmv

Here's an oldy... Helio Gracie in 51 being taken by Kimura.

http://www.judoclub.ca/mpegs/Kimura_Gracie1.mpg

Here's the long one... http://www.judoclub.ca/mpegs/Kimura_Gracie2.mpg

[jonsku]

Well, I have acquired the whole match clip (emule, anyone? :) ) and as I see it, Royce goes limp but the choke didn't effect quite long enough for Royce to pass out completely. Royce later said that he was only "resting" and would have soon escaped, but IMO if carotid choke is applied to you, then you don't have much time to rest, and Yoshida was in quite dominant position. (tate-shiho-katame) But Yoshida should have choked him out, there would be much less discussion about whether he won or not.
just my 2 cents

jonsku

[Cain]

I can already see someone firing this clip in front of anyone who says Judo does'nt work :D

I searched a bit on this guy, looks like he's new and exceptional considering he does only Judo ;)

|Cain|

[YODA]

Check out the thread in the MMA forum on their 2nd fight recently :D

[redbull]

I am the biggest royce gracie fan around but i will tell you this baced on his body language i think that either he was out or about to be out.

[Syd]

Exactly what I thought...

[saikyou]

royce is out. royce is dead by now if yoshida continued that choke.

about the royce is resting thingie. like what jonsku has said, you have no time to rest. the more that you rest, the tighter the choke will be.

[YODA]

Yes - after seeing the video rather than just photos I agree - Royce was about to take a nap!

[Andrew Green]

From that video yes.

What it doesn't show is Royce IMMEDIATELY standing up rather quickly and stating that he did not tap. Grabbing Yoshida draggin him to the side of the ring and trying to get him to tell the judges that he didn't tap.

Royce got up really quickly for someone that was supposed to be unconsicous.

Maybe he would have gone out, maybe not. But at the time it was stopped he was not out, and had not tapped. He wasn't even groggy standing up.

[YODA]

If Yoshida had continued Royce would have been out. If he coulda he shoulda :D

[Andrew Green]

maybe, who knows. I can't see if there is a choke being applied.

But he wasn't out, and he didn't tap. The fight should not have been stopped. Yoshida was in a dominate position, and might have had a choke. But he did not have enough to end the fight.

It was declared "no contest".

The fight does not show up on there records listed at sherdog.com

[Trent Tiemeyer]

No, the decision was never overturned. Yoshida is 1-0-1 vs. Gracie.

[Andrew Green]

I stand corrected, I thought he eventually got it...

[Syd]

Here's a bit of an interview with Yoshida about fighting Gracie...

The old interview

http://www.judoinfo.com/temp/pride/yoshida.htm

The recent one

http://www.pridefc.com/interviews/yoshida_10/yoshida_dec.htm

Here's the recent Gracie Interview...;)

http://www.pridefc.com/daily/2003/12/1001.htm

I really wanna see this match!

[KenpoDavid]

download it from Kazaa, I got it from there...

[Syd]

I thought this would stir things up a bit. I found this discussion on another page...;)


JUDO wins over BJJ

From The Judo Q&A in Underworld Forum

pdeking (8/7/99 6:43:07 pm)

Judo wins over BJJ/GJJ The following is a list of recent judoka who defeated top BJJ men.

(1) Akira Shoji (Black belt in judo but no title in judo) knocked out Wallid Ismael (8 times BJJ champion who has defeated Renzo Gracie, Ralph Gracie, and Royce Gracie) in R2 in Pride 4.

(2) Igor Zinoviev (Black belt but only a local (NY and NJ) title in judo) defeated Mario Sperry (3 times world champion in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu). He knocked out Enson Inoue in 44 seconds in 1996 Vale Tudo Japan.

(3) Don Frye (2nd degree black belt in judo) defeated Amaury Bitetti (1995 world champion in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) by TKO in UFC8. Don Frye spent a lot of time practicing judo before the bout with Amaury Bitetti. Frye knew that by practicing authentic judo, he would be completely prepared to take on the BJJ world champion Amaury Bitetti. That is why Frye looked so confident before the match, and he proved himself as we all know. After Don Frye won the Ultimate Ultimate 1996, Jeff Blatnick said to Frye that " Your submission skills have greatly improved." Frye then said, "I spent a lot of time practicing judo." These top BJJ fighters were unable to submit these totally unknown judoka who had no title in judo and lost the bouts in NHB. If BJJ is so much better than judo, then why did these top names in BJJ failed to apply any submission hold on the ground? The fact is that top BJJ fighters were defeated in NHB matches by no name judoka means that it is not very difficult for highly trained judoka to defend themselves against submission holds. Learn true judo, then you will learn to beat BJJ black belts on the ground.

(4) Yasuichi Ono choked out Jorge Gracie (Helio Gracie's older brother) circa 1950. These are four cases in which no name judoka defeated top BJJ fighters.

(5) Masahiko Kimura (7th dan BB undefeated for 13 years in judo) defeated Helio Gracie (the self-proclaimed founder of Gracie Jiu Jitsu) by breaking two bones in the left arm of Helio, by udegarami. Helio Gracie was hospitalized for multiple fractures. In this bout, Helio was unable to score any counter or reverse. Kimura defeated Helio on the ground using a ground technique which is supposed to be BJJ's strength.

(6) In 1974, Wilhelm Ruska (1972 Olympics judo gold medalist in over 95kg class and absolute division) destroyed Iwan Gomes (then the no. 1 man in BJJ) by punches on the ground in a vale tudo match. (5) and (6) are records of what happened when top BJJ men fought top judoka. In both of these cases, these BJJ men were brave enough to challenge top judoka. But the bouts ended in executions by judoka.

faxia roxa (8/7/99 8:01:32 pm) Reply Re: Judo wins over BJJ/GJJ

Excellent post Pdeking. In my view, Kimura's skill in Judo is second only to that of Kyuzo Mifune. In the thread about Judo vs. BJJ I talk about what I feel are the major differences between the two arts. Even a Judoka who trains only for shiai will have good newaza skill because newaza is one of the two major components of shiai. The only Judoka whose mat skills are subpar are those who train to turtle up and avoid newaza, which in my view is not in keeping with the spirit of Judo at all. I feel that a Judoka who spends about half of his time doing newaza and trains not only for shiai but in the complete art of Judo (e.g. with all the various joint locks contained in Judo) is training in the most well-rounded grappling style that exists. These Judoka (which includes myself and I assume pdeking as well) have very strong skills with takedowns and throws, which means that they can stay standing if they choose, and when they decide to go to the ground they have a much better chance of starting in a clearly superior position instead of accepting a fairly neutral position like the guard. As has been provenm in events such as Judo America's Mat Madness newaza events, Judoka are generally superior to BJJers in terms of being able to both maintian osaekomi and to escape from the opponent's osaekomi, and also use and can work from a wider variety of osaekomi because Judo views all osaekomi (of which The A-Z of Judo lists 20, and there are many more) as more or less equal, as compared to BJJ where the mount (tate shiho gatame) is viewed as the ultimate osaekomi and other techniques such as kesa gatame are viewed as lesser, when in fact they are veery effective and efficient. Despite the opinion some people seem to hold, I feel that this is proof that allowing wins by osaekomi in shiai improves newaza skill, so long as skills at transitioning from osaekomi to submission are not neglected (which is generally not a problem, these skills are highly practiced by most Judoka and in most clubs osaekomi isn't counted in randori), although many Judo hold downs can easily be used to submit the opponent by themselves (kata gatame can easily be turned into a side choke, for example). Both the osaekomi and throwing skills mean the Judoka has a greater ability to get to a dominant position. Judoka have a huge assortment of effective submissions available to them, including many that some people mistakenly think were invented by BJJ (clock choke = okuri eri jime or koshi jime depending on variation, double anklelock counter to the rear naked = hiza tori garami, etc.). Also, if a Judoka gets behind his opponent, he has many options, several invented by Judoka or mostly unique to Judo, besides the direct choke (Eckersley roll to juji gatame, roll to jigoku jime, combination kataha jime to juji gatame, etc.). And of course, if these Judoka are forced to fight from either end of the guard, they are much more than competent. At my club, I would guess close to 40% of our newaza training time is devoted to passing the guard (my personal favorite as far as the guard is concerned) and sweeps, submissions, and defense from the guard ("the guard" referring to all the many variations thereof). Many submissions from the guard that are very common in Judo aren't seen much outside of Judo, including armlocks like ude gatame and hiza gatame (which to me seems generally easier and more efficient than the standard juji gatame from the guard, and is about as reliable). Having said that, I am sure that some practitioners of BJJ read this forum, and I would like them to know that this is my honest assesment of the two arts and is in no way meant to be derogatory towards BJJ, which is a great art itself. All arts are valuable, and BJJ in my view is one of the best. And if any BJJ practitioner or anyone else has a differing view point or further questions or comments on this, that is definitely welcome here. My forum is meant to be a place for exchange of information, and input from any source, so long as it is respectful to all posters of this forum, as all information posted here has been thus far, is always greatly appreciated.

pdeking (8/8/99 8:00:53 pm) Reply true judo I have been trying to convey what true judo is all about on the internet for the last two years since there are so many people who have never seen real judo. I think things have started to change gradually due to the effort of people like you and myself. I post at Underground to defend the honor of judo and the people who created it. You have done an excellent job for providing detailed explanation of real judo techniques. The sad fact is that majority of people in US have never seen real judo. Very few dojo in US teach real judo. TV never shows any judo match even in Olympics. What makes me really infuriated is that many BJJ followers claim that judo blackbelts are easily submitted by BJJ blue belts. These young men have never encountered real judoka who possess formidable skills. They also have no idea about how devastating judo throws can be if executed on a hard surface. I think it takes time for justice to prevail. I will keep on posting correct information on judo. faxia roxa (8/9/99 7:44:30 am)

Reply Pdeking, As I'm sure you will remember, I tried to convince people on the UG for many months before getting booted. The unfortunate fact is that many of them will never listen. That is why I love this place. The people here would rather learn about our great art than bash it. I think, though, that things are changing. I think there are more dojos are teaching the whole art of Judo these days than at any time in the last couple decades. Perhaps now all these people will be able to see Judo for everything it has, not just one small part of the whole.

Jiujitsu Fanatic (8/10/99 1:23:59 pm) Reply Re: Pdeking, It is okay to be proud of Judo...I am myself (Armbreaker from the Underground)...but discrediting a style that shares such a huge overlap with Judo, such as BJJ...not only makes BJJ look bad, but also Judo. I'm proud of both Judo, and BJJ...and pdeking...I like having faxia on here, but you my friend are way out of line by attempting to discredit Bjj, just for the sake of making Judo sound better. Judo does not, nor will ever need you to bash another art, especially one that shares many techniques with it, just to "enlighten" a few people. Faxia...although I didn't agree with you all the time on the Underground...I like what you are doing here..but tell me, am I wrong for feelng that pdeking is out of line by constantly bashing BJJ, in the name of Judo? Does it not make us (judoka) all look bad, when he acts this way? I have never read him post anything, other than BJJ bashing material. Like I said, I do both, love to do both...but it is not right to constantly bash another art, in the name of Judo, because it reflects on all of us.

pdeking (8/10/99 7:47:08 pm) Reply reply to Armbreaker BJJ is a complete subset of judo. It is for this reason that BJJ can never surpass judo. "If A and B are two sets, and A is a strict subset of B, then A can never exceed B" is a very basic theorem in logic. In other words, all the BJJ techniques are in judo, but there are many judo techniques that are absent in BJJ. BJJ has far fewer techniques than judo. In spite of all the facts I presented on the internet, some BJJ followers still claim that BJJ is far better than judo. I am only presenting facts. Armbreaker, I strongly recommend that you visit Gene LeBelle's dojo and meet with Mr. LeBelle or Gokor. It seems to me you have never seen judo at the Olympic level. I cannot blame you for this since it is practically impossible to see judo at the Olympic level for those who live in the US. You have no choice but to take BJJ because your judo teacher does not teach you real judo. I also recommend that you read all the articles written by Faxia Roxa on this forum. You will find them excellently instructive. As you say, majority of judoka in the US need to learn more newaza. I agree. Many judoka (not necessarily the A-class judoka) defeated top BJJ representatives under the BJJ rule as we saw in Abu Dhabi Challenge 1999 (e.g, Igor Yakimov, Mark Robinson, Hayato Sakurai) and in history (Kimura defeating Helio, Ono defeating Jorge Gracie (see www.bjj.org)). The opposite has never happened. I would be impressed if a BJJ representative managed to qualify for the next Olympic and won a medal in judo.

Jiujitsu Fanatic (8/10/99 8:13:11 pm) Reply Re: reply to Armbreaker pdeking...I am not arguing whether or not one is better than the other...i'm arguing against your method of "spreading the word". I have rolled and taken seminars with Gokor, and Mike Swain...and while impressive...they didn't controlÊme when we rolled the way Rickson did. Well, I never rolled with Mr. Swain, but he threw me on my rear end a few times. Gokor is a very good guy and martialÊartist, but when I rolled with Rickson I was completely helpless, like a baby. But back to the originalÊtopic...i'm not slagging on Judo at all. If what I took was not a "good" brand of Judo, and it works for me...then true Judo would be an awesome sight to behold! But the way you bash jiujitsu is wrong. That is all i'm saying.

Jiujitsu Fanatic (8/11/99 6:03:12 am) Reply Re: reply to Armbreaker pdeking...I also went back and read some of your facts. How can you can it be a win for Judo when Don Frye used wrestling and boxing to pound Amaury? You are counting wins in NHB contests against jiujitsu fighters who are not good at NHB, that only train for sport jiujitsu...such as Wallid, Amaury, and Sperry. You are making non-Gracie Brazilian Jiujitsu practictioners be held by the standard that the Gracies set. If it takes a world champion NHB fighter to beat a sport champion, then that says alot. From what I can see...only two Gracies have lost, in 70+ years to Judo.

faxia roxa (8/13/99 6:15:03 pm) Reply Jiu Jitsu Fanatic, Hello my friedn, great to see you here. I just got back from my vaction. Like I said, believe that all arts have something to offer, I believe that VJJ is a great art,and I believe that the best art is that which best suits the needs of the practitioner. I did not see what pdeking said as being derogatory towards BJJ, and although I definitely feel that, at least from my perspective, the Judo philosophy and skill set is the best available, I would not condone "bashing" of any art, be it Judo, BJJ, TKD, Wing Chun, etc.

pdeking (8/23/99 4:38:20 pm) Reply Gracie standard Bitetti defeated Royler in 1995. Ismael defeated Renzo, Ralph, and Royce. Sperry defeated Rolyer. These non-Gracies are technically superior to the Gracies. They have surpassed the standard set by the Gracies. Still they were all defeated by no name judoka. BJJ fanatics have been spreading lies about judo for the last several years. I am only correcting those lies and providing truth about judo. Judo has always been a science, which has nothing to do with a fanatic belief. On the other hand, BJJ is a cult for some of the followers. It is impossible to reason them. No logical explanation works for them since they are completely brainwashed and mind-controlled. It is good that the tide has changed and the number of BJJ fanatics has been dwindling steadily.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

http://www.graciemag.com/nocaute/edicao/capa13g.jpg :D

[Syd]

What was the outcome of that match 1one? Am I right in thinking it was called a draw? ;)

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Yes. It was a time limit draw, after Gracie maintained a full mount for six minutes, and took Yosi's back several times. He never went for the sub, choosing instead to punish his poor defenseless opponent.

It's not a turtle position when your opponent gets the hooks.:D

[Syd]

Nice one, thanks. I wonder when we'll get to see the match out on DVD? ;)

Found this post match interview...

Royce Gracie Post-Fight Q&A ::
By Jake Rossen (December 31, 2003)

In 1993, jiu-jitsu specialist Royce Gracie ushered in a new format for combat sports, dominating the early UFC scene with his family's grappling expertise. A decade on, Gracie stripped off his trademark Gi for the first time in order to settle a long-standing feud with Olympian Hidehiko Yoshida. Their first encounter - a grappling contest in August 2002 - ended in a controversial stoppage when the referee believed Gracie was out.

The New Year's Eve rematch allowed strikes, and Yoshida's battle-damaged visage was the result. The fight ended in a draw after two ten-minute rounds, though Gracie was in control for much of the bout. A press conference followed. Thanks go out to DSE for providing the footage for the transcript.

On father Helio and family...
I'd like to first say "Thank you" to my father, not for teaching me this style, not for teaching me how to fight, but for teaching me not to be lazy.

Thank you to my sparring partners for getting me up at five o'clock in the morning, every day, so I can put myself in Japan time.

My wife, my kids, for putting up with this life.

Thanks to Royler for coming up with this strategy, and for pushing me, keeping me going.

Nono, for teaching me about the stand-up world. I totally threw him (Yoshida) off with the strategy Nono and Royler put together.

And I can't forget Rickson. Like he said, "In a perfect world, the last thing I'd be would be a fighter." He helped put my head together, to look at the fight in a different way. He couldn't be here today, but I thank him very much. He's the top of the Gracie family.

I can't forget Royler, either. The guy's awesome.

On his physique...
I was able to take my Gi off because of James. He's my strength coach. He did a miracle! And I can't forget Dr. Patrick. He's been to all my fights. My brothers break me, and he fixes me.

I'm a product of their work. I have discipline, and I know how to listen.

On his training time...
Seven weeks. I heard rumors that Yoshida was asking for a rematch eight weeks ago. I thought, "Something's coming."

I asked for a rematch right after the last fight. But apparently they had other plans for him. I don't know if it was Pride or Yoshida that asked for it, but I'm glad they could put it together, to clean this up. That last match was stuck in my throat.

I've lost before. I know how to lose. Just don't rob me.

On the outcome...
You look at the fight, and you answer yourself. You tell me. Yes, it was a draw. He's a very tough opponent. He's very strong, very tough. But look at the fight, and you tell me who won.

On the appeal of the match...
It cleared up something that was stuck in my throat for the past year and a half. I got robbed. They stopped the fight for no reason. I was disgusted.

On a third bout...
That's something for the show to decide. Right now I just want to go home and see my kids.

On Yoshida...
Right after the fight, I told him, "Now I respect you." He took a beating like a man. Now I can sleep at night: he can sleep. We put a rock on top of this. Now it's done.

He's an expert in grappling, a world champion, an Olympic champion, and an open-weight champion in Japan. He knows how to defend. It's not easy to catch him. He's strong, he knows what he's doing. I gotta tire him out, I gotta punch him a couple times to soften him up.

On taking off his Gi top...
It was a strategy Nono and Royler came up with. I just listened to them. (We decided to do it) about a month ago. Jiu-jitsu is not just with a Gi. It's self-defense, it's not just a Gi sport. I changed my stance, with my right foot out.

On persuading him to take off the Gi was a "miracle"...
It was no miracle. My team told me to do it. He can't hold on to me, he can't stall. Watch how he stalls in this fight. He stalls a lot.

On preparation...
Watch the fight. That's exactly how I was trained. If you get video of the training, and watch the fight, it's exactly the same. The training was on track.

On last words...
Let's say that tonight, I was driving a yellow bus, a school bus, and I took Yoshida to school.

[saikyou]

nice post syd.

[Scaramouch]

Don't want to take sides here, but................

Reading the interviews for the first Gracie vs. Yoshida fight, it was billed as BJJ vs Judo with references to Helio Gracie's fight against Kimura 50 years ago.

The fact that Royce decided to take his gi (kimono) top off and developed special tactics with his trainers/brothers meant that the BBJ vs Judo idea was thrown out the window for the second fight. Royce obviously just wanted the win to, in his mind, set the record straight. In any event the fight was a draw, but I suppose his dominance means that most people consider he/BJJ won it. At the end of the day he wanted to win at any cost - theres nothing wrong with that, but just don't call it a (moral) victory for BJJ over Judo.

[Hannibal]

Why not? It was an MMA match anyway not a sport match. If Royce chose to wear a gi it still would have been MMA. BJJ has gi & no gi techniques. I bet the Judo people would have been shouting if Yoshida had won regardless of what Royce was wearing.

In my experience I love both arts, but BJJ is by far a more complete system. That said, I have studied both. I find Judoka less comfortable on their stomach because they tend to use this as a "stall" in their groundwork (30 secs and up you go!)

In any matches sometimes BJJ wins, sometimes Judo. I think describing Don Frye as a Judoka is a desperate attempt to snatch credibility though!;)

[TheMasterSword]

I feel that this Yoshiba/Gracie fight is STILL not over....

To say that Gracie "won" is still pre-emptive... just because one fighter dominates another DURING the fight does not mean that they are the winner per se.... if this were true then the fight between Ali and Foreman.. Foreman would've been declared the winner because at first he was totally dominating Ali... but it takes a real fighter to take a beating but keep on coming back... Ali hanged on (rope a dope) and eventually defeated Foreman...

All I'm saying is that Royce (as great a fighter as he is) should not BOAST about winning.... it's over when the fighter taps or gets knocked out

let's see a no time limit match between the 2

[jonsku]

Originally posted by TheMasterSword


All I'm saying is that Royce (as great a fighter as he is) should not BOAST about winning.... it's over when the fighter taps or gets knocked out


I agree, especially because the Gracie clan themselves do not consider their fights a loss unless they tap or get KO'd.

The whole matches would not be so big a deal if one of the fighters (coughroycecough) had not had some kind of attitude problem against the another one.Just my opinion, read the interviews and make your own. :D

[TheMasterSword]

I agree that Royce has an attitude towards the fights which is especially evident in his interviews... He calls Yoshida a liar and a disgrace (first match)... Personally I felt that Yoshida was doing the right thing (their first match)... If you have someone in that choke from the mount there is A LOT of force going into that choke considering your whole body weight is being forced onto the neck.. I feel that Yoshida was showing concern when he saw/felt Royce relax a bit (evident in video) regardless of whether Royce was unconsciuos for a bit or relaxing as he claims..

It is my opinion that it is inexcusable for a man who calls himself a martial artist to be boasting with an attitude about his "win"

If he wanted to settle some grudge match take it outside.... if he wanted to see who was the better fighter lets take it again to the ring and see who gets knocked or taps out

[Syd]

This guy is in training to take on Gracie as we speak!

http://www.snowboards.net.au/kitesurfing/kiteimages/gobig.jpg

[saikyou]

Originally posted by Syd
This guy is in training to take on Gracie as we speak!

http://www.snowboards.net.au/kitesurfing/kiteimages/gobig.jpg

hahahahah! question: if that guy applied the choke to royce(same choke that yoshida did in the 1st fight), do you think he can still say that he is JUST RELAXING?!

[snailfist]

:eek:
his pankake-like self would have to be reinflated before we could ask him! lol :D

[Pacificshore]

What's that saying?........"Everyone's gotta lose sometime" :woo:

Line from Platoon:

"Everybody's gotta die sometime, Red"

[jurg]

I swhatched the whole fight and trained spoke whith Royce after the re match of that fight. Whatch the re match where Royce sends Yoshida to the hospital! :cry:

Gracies still rule when it comes to Graplin! :)

[saikyou]

royce dominated the 2nd match, but we are talking about the first match. i watched it a couple of times(the first fight) royce is definitely out. he's not doing anything to escape, yoshida's upper body weight is on his neck, and he(royce) is not moving. he's out.

[jurg]

Have you ever seen the Choke dvd of Rickson Gracey fighting in japan?

He chokes a guy out from behind and then gets up while the guy is passed out on the canvas, and had to get medical assistance from his corner.
Royce got up in a second. no way he was out. You dont fecover that fast after being choked you.
I still say Yoshida pulled a fast on on Royce.
But try and see "choke" it's really cool!

[Sonshu]

True not as a rule but if you look at the

MATT HUGHES vs CARLOS NEWTON - 1st fight it does look like Hughes is out and by the time he falls to the mat he is awake and fighting again.

Food for thought but most times if your out your out cold.

[saikyou]

yoshida is just concerned about the safety of royce. who knows what will happen if that choke was not stopped?

[totality]

royce would've led us through a boring 2 hour match of "domination," with no submission in sight.

...like the second fight.

or, who knows. maybe rickson would've laser blasted them both.

[Freeform]

or, who knows. maybe rickson would've laser blasted them both.

He can do that? ;)

[Hannibal]

Yep...AND leap tall buildings in a single bound!

I saw the first match and IMHO Royce was ripped off. When Wallid put him out he went under and happily said so. Royce would have gladly admitted a loss to Yoshida if the choke had been anything like on. The fact he didn't strongly suggests to me he was "jipped"

[Guy Mendiola]

Royce didn't care if he lost because I bet he knew he could've beat Yoshida but Yoshida got Royce in a choke but yeah Royce wasn't out then.

[totality]

excuses, excuses....sigh.

when was the last time royce subbed someone?

[saikyou]

excuses, excuses....sigh.

when was the last time royce subbed someone?
december 16, 1994. he defeated dan severn.

[Yukimushu]

Yeah, ive got the full match. It's 40.1mb if anyone wants it. I'll have to send it over msn tho!

I thought it looked like Royce was concious as well, but when i take a second look at it, he didn't seem to be doing anything to show he was alright, he was just laying there not moving at all so i could understand why Yoshida was declared the winner.

[Cain]

40 mb.......it'll take me half a day to d/l.........can you spread it on kazaa or upload it somewhere by any chance?

|Cain|

[Yukimushu]

I was going to cut it up, and compress it to something smaller so i could put it on my webspace but it's .wmv extention and Adobe Premeire dont like them so ill need a wmv to .mpeg converter.

[Freeform]

AAAAGGGHHHH!!!

Computer geek-speak!!!!

Although if you do get it working gimme a shout ;)

[Pika]

Top grapplers are noted for resting and waiting for opportunity. IF Royce goes "limp" he could very well be taking a breather. Take a look at Genki Sudo. Notorious for having a break and then exploding into some of the best subs you will ever see.....

I think the main problem here is not whether the choke was on, but the ref stopping it at Yoshidas request. Here we have a match with agreed upon rules, where the home town fighter calls upon the ref to break those very rules........

Just to stir up a hornets nest. Take a close look at the choke, I dont even think it was on, Royce isnt even defending it...... :eek:

[crovax612]

Here's two links of the alternate angle (which pride japan didn't show...even though they always show at least three different angles after a fight's over)of Royce supposably getting choked. one of the commentators (think it was Bas) even says it was a pre-mature stoppage.

http://members.cox.net/sexymuppet/roycenotchoked.wmv

http://onthemat.com/video-mma.html (video is near the bottom)

I think it was just the ref who screwed up. From what I heard Yoshida was asking him if Royce was out. I think it would have been difficult for him to know, seeing as Royce wasn't being very active.

[Yukimushu]

Here's two links of the alternate angle (which pride japan didn't show...even though they always show at least three different angles after a fight's over)of Royce supposably getting choked. one of the commentators (think it was Bas) even says it was a pre-mature stoppage.

http://members.cox.net/sexymuppet/roycenotchoked.wmv

http://onthemat.com/video-mma.html (video is near the bottom)

I think it was just the ref who screwed up. From what I heard Yoshida was asking him if Royce was out. I think it would have been difficult for him to know, seeing as Royce wasn't being very active.

Excellent post :D I can't imagine the pressure placed on ref's sometimes...

[Guy Mendiola]

I had a feeling that it wasn't a submisson because yeah Royce wasn't really choked out.

[Yukimushu]

I had a feeling that it wasn't a submisson because yeah Royce wasn't really choked out.

Yeah; the ref didn't see him reaching in getting some breathing space so i dont blame him for ending the fight. The ref's main concern is the safety of the fighters, and if he see's one fighter choking the other, and the other one doesn't appear to be moving then i really dont blame him for ending it.

[Dave Rees]

RESTING? RESTING??!! Yeah right! I admire the Gracies & BJJ but come on!!

[Infesticon #1]

how do you tap out if you're unconcious?

[Ikken Hisatsu]

from yoshidas position, he cant really see whats going on. the ref should not have stopped that fight, but I wouldnt blame it solely on yoshida.

[DexterTCN]

I've seen dozens of people pass out from chokes/strangles. Recovery time can be anywhere from 1/4 a second to 20 or 30 seconds, as long as the pressure is removed. Either way that's you finished for the night.

In 1984 an English Judoka killed a French fighter (I think he was French) because he choked him out on the way to the ground and then held him...it was the ref's job (they said) to spot that the guy was unconcious. They brought him back to life, luckily.

So in this case what it comes down to is integrity. Yoshida afaik was an Olympic medallist so he would know easily if someone was passing out....tricks dont really work at world class level, especially on the ground. Yoshida wasn't taking the strangle off, he was telling the ref the guy was out.

It's all passed now of course, but it ain't cool to say that the guy was lying about it.

[Freeform]

Mark, I'm with you mate!

I'm personally getting tired of people slating Yoshida, the people who are are generally MMAist who can't believe that the 'pure/singular art' defeated a man renowed for his MMA competance. Whilst people in the Judo fraternity said,

'Yoshida won, yippee!' and that was it.

[Hybrid_Killer]

Mark, I'm with you mate!

I'm personally getting tired of people slating Yoshida, the people who are are generally MMAist who can't believe that the 'pure/singular art' defeated a man renowed for his MMA competance. Whilst people in the Judo fraternity said,

'Yoshida won, yippee!' and that was it.


Yup yoshida rocks.

What I'm sick of is the gracies who really need to get over themselves...they aren't any good anymore.Period.


As well as being sore losers.

[YODA]

Yup yoshida rocks.

What I'm sick of is the gracies who really need to get over themselves...they aren't any good anymore.Period.


As well as being sore losers.
Aren't ANY good? ROFLMAO!

[Hybrid_Killer]

Maybe you misunderstood me.

What I meant to say is that the aren't any good in the MMA arena anymore.

[Freeform]

The Gracies are a great family of MAists, they prove to the world that you need to have a grappling game to fight. Now that people know and even train the Gracie style, they're gonna have to work harder to stay at the top, this should take nothing away from them!

[Guy Mendiola]

Yup yoshida rocks.

What I'm sick of is the gracies who really need to get over themselves...they aren't any good anymore.Period.


As well as being sore losers.Nah, In my opinion there's only a few Gracies that are competing in the MMA circuit, All the names I could think of is Royce and Renzo that are competing in Pride.

[karateka]

Hey I dont rele know very much about Judo or Pride/UFC stuff, but if you look at the videos from crovax612's post, you see firstly that the choke wasn't even on - gracie's neck and chin was free and I don't see Yoshida is applying significant pressure to the side of the neck, and secondly, gracie was up and protesting the second yoshida climbed off him, so I think he can't have been out. Having said that, I don't know why gracie went all limp while Yoshida was on top of him - he can't have been out, and resting???that doesn't seem realistic.

So, I don't blame the referee much for stopping it - until I saw the alternate angle it looked like Gracie was losing conciousness fast, and he has to take gracie's health into consideration. I also reckon gracie must take some blame because wateva he was doing, he did it voluntarily and should have known it would look like he was being choked out. Basically, I think gracie can't have been out, even though I'm biased, prefer Judo to BJJ and wantd Yoshida to win.
Just an Opinion

[Captain_Coward]

How do these threads go on for so long, you should all be sports commentators.

K

Hows your hols going col

[Acekicken]

Chalk one up for Judo ;) I saw some footage, very briefly, of the end of the Yoshida/Gracie match where Yoshida chokes out Gracie. Has anyone seen the match in it's entirety?

Best, Syd

I saw The 1st Shock wave Fight.
It is very clear Royce was not out.

The 2nd Fight Royce was a Victam of his own Rules
Beacuse there were no Judges The Fight was a Draw.

Yoshida had a Good Return against Mark Hunt.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

just on a different tangent- does anyone actually like watching the gracies fight nowadays? I mean it was fun when they owned everybody, but now, their way of fighting just annoys me. like royler vs genki, all royler did the entire match was pull guard and wait for genki to make a mistake. and he paid for it by way of getting his face mashed into the ground. dont get me wrong, i love grappling, just not the way most of the gracies seem to do it.

[YODA]

Good and valid question Ikken - but as you stated - on a tangent. Feel free to start a new thread with it - this baby is going to sleeeeep.

*Yoda wraps arm round thread's neck and squeezes....