Part 4 - Internal and External

[Fire-quan]

“Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.”

That is Revelation 13:18. Over the millennia it’s been variously thought to refer to Rome, its emperors, Popes, Napoleon, Stalin, Hitler. Even Barack Obama. Some see it as a mystical prophecy foretelling the coming of the demonic son of Satan,some as mumbo jumbo…yadda yadda – you get the picture.

Personally, I see it as just meaning that to understand the nature of a thing you need a bit of wisdom – much as we say thesedays: ‘it’s the nature of the beast,’ or ‘I’ve got your number!’

Maybe St John did have a specific meaning. We can never know, I suppose. But what we can know is something about the mindset of the people who choose to interpret it, based on the interpretations they choose. If someone genuinely thinks it is a reference to Barack Obama, that tells me something about that person. Likewise if they think it is mumbo-jumbo, or a reference to the Catholic Church. It tells me a little something about what kind of person they are.

And it also tells us that often, people interpret things not in a way that follows any logical uncovering of meaning, but in a way that simply confirms and conforms to pre-existing biases. Ideas that are open to interpretation can easily be made to conform to pre-extant agendas, providing just the conclusion we want.

So with the Chinese martial art concept of ‘internal/external’. Maybe our Western view is too centred on having one specific meaning for things. Maybe not. But it is true that where the meaning of an idea has become obscure, there is room for more than one interpretation. In fact, each interpretation of internal/external ‘works’ in some way for the person who holds it. It confirms something to them. And it tells everyone else – at least, those who have enough wisdom to understand the nature of this beast – something about them.

My interpretation of Revelation 13:18 tells you something about me. It tells you that I look for interpretations of things that are practically useful. I especially look for interpretations that grow in usefulness the more you understand them. The idea that Barrack Obama is the Anti-Christ has zero value outside of some specific, fixed fantasy. As an idea, it stops dead at that point. It has no further depth to explore. However, the idea that wisdom and insight is required to understand certain aspects of the world never stops being wise. My interpretation may not be true, but it’s far more useful as a conceptual tool than most of the other interpretations. And it continues to reveal itself as ever more useful, ever more true, the more I understand its implications. Because the more you understand what makes people tick, the more you understand why they choose to interpret things in certain ways. And the more you understand that, the more you understand why certain interpretations of things achieve popular acceptance, despite being cobblers.

Most interpretations of ‘internal martial arts’ are dead ends. By all means, follow them, keep to them – hold them and promote them – but they are dead ends that lead nowhere useful in the end. On a general level, they simply promote some dead ideological idea. But on a personal level, if you really want truth, you have to ask why you choose to believe the things you do. It’s not a coincidence – and it never was – that you chose certain interpretations over others. Dare to ask yourself why you chose them. There are only two destination in Quan – one, to find the true heart: the essence of Quan; and two, to build a self image that serves the self and only the self, and leads to no insight in to Quan. I do believe everyone starts out on the latter path. And only some people take the very simple, yet astoundingly difficult step on to the former.

Those (so called ‘internal’ Chinese martial artists) who feel weak and powerless in daily life are the ones most likely to interpret what they do – i.e their hobby of ‘internal martial art’ - as being something powerful; something that grants them power. They are the ones most likely to speak of things like ‘spine wave power’ or ‘massive internal energy power’ etc. Even when, in reality, they know full well that they don’t have massive power levels. They are also those most likely to issue threats; to claim that they will teach others a lesson for daring to question their power. Their interpretation of ‘internal’ is simply like boasting of owning a weapon. Nothing more. And it’s a weapon that they don’t even own because believing in fantasy power diverts you from real training for real power.

Those who feel a lack of self worth are the ones most likely to see ‘internal’ as some kind of crowning achievement of their training. These are the people who talk of taiji, bagua and Xing Yi as ‘the three crowns of Chinese martial arts’ etc., and see what they do as not necessarily ‘better’ than other martial arts, just far more difficult to master. It grants them worth. For them, ‘internal’ means high accomplishment - even when they know full well they have not really accomplished much.

Those who suffer with feeling a little inferior to others are the most likely to see ‘internal’ martial arts as better than other types. It is superior, and by osmosis, grants them superiority. They are the ones who see what they call ‘external’ stylists as in some way lesser to themselves, and can not help but make snide remarks, such as ‘oh, that’s too external’ – because they have to let people know that they are superior. And they are one of he types who therefore constantly seek to put themselves in conflict with people of genuine accomplishment, and so always fulfil their own cycle. Why seek it? Because they have to. They have to put others down if they can’t raise themselves up.

The fearful see ‘internal martial arts’ as a ‘get out of serious training free’ card. Imagine how difficult it is for those who feel afraid, who want to train to look after themselves but are afraid of the sparring and contact necessary for real training. And imagine what a relief it must be to be told that they can simply do some meditation, slow forms and a bit of push hands, and that will make them in to martial artists. But in truth, they never get past the barrier of fear – they are always hiding from it, and the more senior they become in their ‘art’, the more they are both in line to face a fight, and unable to cope with it. Result – fear. As with all these standpoints, they are all self fulfilling – the more you run away from the ‘issue’, the more you end up building a world where you feel it even more acutely.

And there are those who want to be alone. They are the lonely Internal Boxers; wandering Xia warriors, following the noble and righteous path of Tao through internal martial arts. Often, true seekers. But it’s still simply ‘something to be.’

You’ll notice that so far I haven’t given any definition of ‘internal and external’. Well, you’ve heard them. You’ve heard them all, over and over. And if you haven’t, you will. Now think about where those definitions have gotten people. Where have they led to?

Here is wisdom; real, true, undeniable, self proving wisdom: there are only two kinds of philosophical ideas – ideas that have the power to get you somewhere, then only to keep you there; and ideas that continue to unfold in to deeper and deeper implication, offering ever more profound insight.

Which kind of ideas are you looking for?

Here’s an idea. Maybe in the West we’re a little two influenced by the binary nature of our language. We want meanings to be fixed – and we want to search and find meanings, and know them – own them, even. ‘Own the meaning now! Only twenty dollar!’

Well maybe you can’t own this meaning. Maybe it doesn’t have a fixed point that you can latch on to and hold down. Maybe ‘internal/external’ is a different type of idea – what I call a ‘true principle’ – that never has any fixed meaning; it’s meaning is fluid, and dependent on the wisdom and insight of the person holding it. And the wiser they are, the deeper the implication they see in it. So often I’m told ‘you’re saying nothing new!’ Well, I know – I know it! It’s not hearing the idea that counts, it’s how deeply you understand its implication!

I think there are only a handful of true principles in Quan. Maybe five or six at the most. It’s not, and never was, about hundreds of techniques or forms – it’s about a core, handful of true principles whose implications are profound, maybe even never ending – the wiser we are, the more implications they reveal. Not only that, the more the true principle simplifies in its form and expression, the more profound, and wider, the implications become. Meaning, the real lies and red herrings are the big, complex theories of meridians and qi and times of day. The more complex the principle, the less implications it has; in fact, you have to buy in to the whole ideology to believe it. As ever, it has to be believed to be seen.

True principles don’t. They are self evidently true – even for the ignorant, because ignorance also gives its own level of insight.

There is a saying in taiji – ‘invest in loss’. I think it may be one of the true principles of Quan. It has a fluid, ever deepening meaning – ever revealing more and more implications, the more you ponder it. Sadly, most people only ever see it in the most superficial sense. Internal as qi based, soft movement martial art with meridians and arm waving doesn’t do that – it gets you to a certain point – of exploring certain ways of movement, but then it dies, and it takes people no further. That’s why so few people can actually use the ‘internal’ martial arts to any degree. The idea that got them there kept them there. They didn’t invest in loss – in this case, reaping a wonderful reward for letting go of old interpretations of old ideas, and going deeper, to circle them again – like an eagle going round and round, lower and lower to its prey. You have to keep circling – invest in loss; allow old ideas to give way to new awareness. Actively seek insight. Why do I say that? Well, because I’m tired of arguing with people’s ideologies. Where are the wise ones, who actively seek further insight, not further ideology? Who actively seek more useful, more powerful expression of Quan, not word games and threats to keep the lid on their empty pot? Where are you, my kith and kin?

Now, there are those who don’t want deeper insight. Of course there are – there always are, in any system. And usually they’re right at the top, because ignorance is like cream – it rises right to the very top of the bottle. There are those who actively seek to reinforce their particular view. And there are a lot of reasons for that. But mostly, those reasons are base and shallow. Some people even just want to provide a fuller curriculum, so they make sure that they teach both ‘internal’ and ‘external’ martial arts – just for the sake of it. And it looks good – like the more styles they know, the better they are. Actually, it’s depth of understanding of the implications of the handful of true, core principles that makes a person an expert in Quan – not how many styles they know. Xing yi, bagua, taji…. How many styles can one person master? And yet, those who understand the true principles understand all of Quan. Which is which, and who is who? I know who is who. I know.

There are those who shift to ‘internal’ martial arts because they’ve been pushed out of the real fighting market by real fighting styles. Teaching taiji or ‘internal’ styles is a way to still make money, and happily catch up all the people who aren’t interested in fighting, and at the same time never have to get involved with the people who are and might embarrass them.

But then there’s another category. There are lots of people who really have invested a great deal in their training and in teaching and helping others progress. They’re often innovators themselves. Fixed interpretations of ideas have got them to a certain point. But don’t ever feel that you have to maintain the same views as others – every teacher worth their salt wants their students to progress to higher levels than themselves. Everyone understands that we each have our own potential – maybe we’ve reached ours, but we don’t want that to limit our students. It’s in the nature of this thing, this wonderful, profound art of Quan, that only certain combinations of mindset and will to train are going to achieve serious level understanding. We all have to work together to support those individuals. We are the platform for the next generation, just as the last generation was the platform for us.

What I’m saying is don’t feel owned by the past. The real, profound meaning of core principles isn’t first of all any fixed meanings, but rather, to understand the types of ideas that they are – fluid, powerful, meaningful – and multi-faceted. They have unfathomable depths. They can’t be pinned down to one simple interpretation. And they grow more simple. Their expression becomes more simple, even going past the point where you can put them in to words, because even that over complicates them. But their implications – I think their implications cover everything, if only we understand them. And that in itself – to understand that – IS one of the core principles itself.

Now, how to unlock that, and what will it do? Well, I’ll tell you where I am at with ‘internal and external.’ I am at the point where I see ‘internal’ as meaning intuitive progression; finding the natural, human martial art principles through experimentation and capturing natural insight. I see ‘external’ as meaning the copying of other people – the learning of drills, best practices, even forms. And I see those two as harmonious essentials that work together – and Quan, therefore, as a natural ability that is honed through learned methods. Quan itself is fluid, profound idea that can not fully be put in to words. So I hope you get my meaning, somehow via intuitive understanding.

But – I also see internal/external as referring to the mind – to learning; to ideas. And not only to ideas, but to emotional information. We have to explore the ideology of what we believe about martial arts – including training methods. And we also have to explore the emotional side. And that last one – that’s the hurdle; the real, true barrier point that every true seeker, I think, comes to. Notice I say every true seeker. A lot of people never get there – not ever. They never have to face this. They never, ever, want to consciously articulate or explore what it is that they ruthlessly exploited Quan for. They never want to face that they use it in some way to stop them feeling worthless, or inferior, or lonely. It’s too much to ask of them. But those that do have the balls and stomach for that – that’s the golden point: the crossroads where you stop, and you’re forced to think about your direction – about why you train. Why you truly train, and what you really, really want Quan for.

It’s modern sports psychology, but it’s profound, Taoist philosophy too – understanding why and how you made you. How you chose your enemies just to be the yin to your yang. How you took on board ideas to form and hide aspects of yourself. Check it out, as they say on the legendary ‘street’ – you made you, every step of the way. You designed yourself.

And that, in itself, is the true internal method of Chinese martial arts – the intuitive exploration of knowledge; physical, ideological, emotional knowledge, to come to deeper understanding. I can’t fix it any more than that for you. You have to explore which way of punching is best, and you have to explore why you invest belief in the things you do. You have to explore why you choose certain enemies and opponents. But it’s the exploration that matters. Invest in loss – old landscape is left behind; explore new territory.

I can’t tell you exactly why the internal method works, or why it leads to better martial arts. You still have to practice an enormous amount - but somehow, practice itself becomes more efficient the moment – the very moment you understand, truly, why you wanted Quan – it’s an insight in to you, and who you are that changes everything - including direction and ambition, and away from using martial arts- or indeed other people - for yourself, and towards truly understanding it, or them.

Beware though. You may find that once you realise the true heart of your ambitions and motivations, that you no longer want to even train. Give it time – a big lull is a part of the process.

In short – temei nosce.
And – good luck!

[chof]

you know nothing about cma

[Dean Winchester]

Yeah Choff because you come across as so knowledgeable on so many subjects!

NOT!!

[chof]

cma is based on qigong cultivating internal energy qi, which is real and powerful too, why so many say oh blah blah thats not real, is they lack the discipline to achieve it and to develop the ultimate fist as the asians call it ,you must perform qigong everyday!

[old palden]

I compliment Fire Quan on this four part (and still growing?) manifesto.

While I often feel his incendiary and arrogant tone undercuts the value of what he says, I respect his stated commitment to honesty, and looking ever deeper for what is real and true. I also agree that when found, the truth is often too simple to even be stated.

This is good work, and I look forward to its further refinement.

[liokault]

I compliment Fire Quan on this four part (and still growing?) manifesto.

While I often feel his incendiary and arrogant tone undercuts the value of what he says, I respect his stated commitment to honesty, and looking ever deeper for what is real and true. I also agree that when found, the truth is often too simple to even be stated.

This is good work, and I look forward to its further refinement.

I'm not so sure. From where I'm sitting its looking more and more self-serving.

[chof]

oh yea that is right, lol why would an internal M A, be proud being that 95 percent of ma, never reach an internal level, nei kung, able to generate devastating power with effortless movements, advanced co ordination, creativity, repel blows with out feeling pain ,sensory perception elevated to a supreme level? you dont have a clue!, not to mention the sun of energy they carry naturally and when in conflict the ability to enhance it

[old palden]

Well yes it's self serving, and in keeping with his persona he manages to maintain an incendiary and arrogant tone, stating everything as if he is the last and probably only hope for true MA, even though it's a monologue and he's not contending with anyone.

However, I do find it interesting, and he makes some good points.
As I said, I look forward to further refinement.

[Knight_Errant]

personally, I thought the difference between external and internal MA was
"External- uses athletic ability, internal- pretends to use chi/whatever nonexistant force is the flavour of the week"

[cloudz]

Yea, your indepth knowledge of CMA has been noted KE..

It's a bit like describing matter and energy, einsteins know it's ultimately a false dichotomy, but sometimes it can be a useful duel categorization for people to talk about stuff and seperate this from that.

blah de blah blah.

[Knight_Errant]

nah, it's just a load of complete bollocks for my money.

[cloudz]

depends what you're refering to I suppose. But the 'division' of martial arts in that way, I agree.

[Knight_Errant]

yeah? cool :)

[eyeofstorm]

Let me throw another definition in the pot for you...

External martial artists train specific muscle groups and specific techniques to develop power. Internal martial arts develop and fine tune the coordination between the different parts of the body so that the whole body works as one unit essentially becoming one large muscle. In this way they can develop great power with little apparent effort. It takes a long time to develop such fine coordination and a large part of it is releasing tension in the muscles you aren't using at the time so as to make the movements faster, more efficient and to be able to flow from one move to the next with speed, power and balance.
There is obviously more to it than that but this definition may fit better in some people's mindsets.

[Rebo Paing]

I enjoy reading every bit. It maybe that it is so because the message reinforces my own beliefs ... but for me this message is on track.

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

We have begun filming some internaland external training methods as they pertain to MMA rules fighting. Bagua/Silat movements on tires and bags, Chi Kung Tire lifting drills, Ground Bag and Mook Jong striking/grappling drills and Western Boxing Moving Bag Drills alldone with the emphasis of maintaining the 5 Character Secret, The 5 Energies and Attraction into emptiness.... Take a look at these training films that sample someof our internal and external drills...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y9Hg7FfS0Q

[YouKnowWho]

Are the following styles "internal" or "external"?

1. The Shuai Chiao principle - human body is like 3 springs, with training, all 3 springs will be compressed and released at the same time.

2. The Baji principle - all body parts move and stop at the same time.

3. The prey mantis principle - you only see the body move and you don't see the limbs move.

4. The long fist principle - you should use your Shenfa to express your sword skill without holding a sword in your hand.

5. Zimen principle - The Yin Jin starts from your leg, goes through your arm and reaches to your finger tips. If you use your fingers to touch your leg, you will feel cold air come out of your finger tips.

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

How are you? Dr. Stier tells me you guys had a get together last week or so. Hope it was fruitful. Thanks for the comments and Im glad you liked the video samples of our training. Its good to know that the principles of SC, Baji and Preying Mantis all follow the directives of Master I lu-yeuh's 5 Character Secret. Gary has me studying TCM very hard. My firstseminar is next month and the release of the book is very very soon. The Gym just got picked up by EFC MMA Fight Entertainment promotions (They are digging the Internal Aspects that I was talking about in the Rumsoakedfist). I am glad you finally wish to chat and learn from each other John. Itis an honor to share my sucesses with ya after such a volitile beginning... lol. Questions:

1. Are the 3 Springs concept referring to I, Li and Shen?
2. Where can I buy some Weighted Balls for Bagua Training?
3. How's your dog?

[YouKnowWho]

I could not make that get together meeting. Since I had met most of the guys, I didn't miss much and I'm sure that I'll have chance to meet the other guys in some future tournament. The 3 springs concept is the same as the body unification concept. No more and no less. My Ya Ya is great. Thanks!

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

One other thing John:

Please help me understand your comment about Zimen concerning the manafestation of cold air coming from your fingertips... what does this indicate? Is the rest of the body cold...is there a specific mind intent that precedes and sustains the manafestation? What is the breathing pattern?

About the long Fist stuff...Miyamoto Musashi talks about that in the Water Book of the Book of Five Rings...has reference to the long cut and the resolution of the mountain. Thanks for helping me remember this for training..... G

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

One other thing John:

Please help me understand your comment about Zimen concerning the manafestation of cold air coming from your fingertips... what does this indicate? Is the rest of the body cold...is there a specific mind intent that precedes and sustains the manafestation? What is the breathing pattern?

About the long Fist stuff...Miyamoto Musashi talks about that in the Water Book of the Book of Five Rings...has reference to the long cut and the resolution of the mountain. Thanks for helping me remember this for training..... G

[YouKnowWho]

That's in the Zimen Chuan Pu. I had spent sometime training in that style but I could not reach to that level. The theory of Zimen style is much deeper than the Taiji system. The reason is a Zimen guy needs to train not only the Jin have to reach to the hand but also the finger tips. It's 100% Yin Jin that's differet from the Yang Jin most people did in their iron palm training. The 1st step is to break through the 3 joints (shoulder joint, elbow joint, and wrist joint). So your body have to be extream Sung. When you strike with your Yin Jin, your Yin Jin will go through all those 3 joints while the body is in extream relax situation.

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

I will research this.... Thank you John.

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

I will research this.... Thank you John.

[eyeofstorm]

It takes years to be able to develop the jin in different parts of the body then to connect them in one unbroken stream. Any excess physcial tension in or surrounding a joint will prevent the effect. YouKnowWho is correct in this but he only mentions the arms and shoulder joints. Don't forget the spine, hips, knees and ankles also to get the jin from the root to the fingertips. When you have achieved this you will really have developed something phenomenol.

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

As Musashi advises... I will study hard... and Thanks!!!!

[KFSON]

As I have heard, external and internal lead to the same source but in opposite directions.

The internal, by concentrating on qi and mind, will lead to the ability to read your opponents mind and being able to generate a kind of qi with the mind and deliver this energy in constructive or destructive form into your opponent without physically touching him/her. The person/opponent could actually be on the other side of the world.

[inthespirit]

LOL! + 1,000,000,000

If you disagree I will mind punch you wherever you may be!!! :D

[eyeofstorm]

As I have heard, external and internal lead to the same source but in opposite directions.

The internal, by concentrating on qi and mind, will lead to the ability to read your opponents mind and being able to generate a kind of qi with the mind and deliver this energy in constructive or destructive form into your opponent without physically touching him/her. The person/opponent could actually be on the other side of the world.

This sort of cr@p is what prevents people from taking the internal arts seriously. It isn't a fantasy world or science fiction and you can't physically affect someone on the other side of the world with your qi. If you think that's for real show us someone who can to that.
You have heard wrong my friend or maybe you are just posting some anal spewings to get a rise out of serious practitioners.

[KFSON]

This sort of cr@p is what prevents people from taking the internal arts seriously. It isn't a fantasy world or science fiction and you can't physically affect someone on the other side of the world with your qi. If you think that's for real show us someone who can to that.
You have heard wrong my friend or maybe you are just posting some anal spewings to get a rise out of serious practitioners.

I am posting what I have experienced, my friend.
Not only the above, but one's physical movements can be manipulated by someone else's mind, such as punching oneself in one's own face against one's will.

If you don't like that reality, that is acceptable.

[eyeofstorm]

Where and how did you get this information? Have you personally witnessed this? I'm always interested in tracking down the origins of this kind of claim.

[YouKnowWho]

I'm also very interest in this. I have tried to experience this all my life and I still don't have any luck yet. One Qi master could make a room full of people to move like zombies. He charged $450 a person. I had my check in my pocket but I did not participate that day and I just watched. Later on I offered him $10,000 if he could move me without touching. He finally decided not to accept my offer.

[KFSON]

I do not have these abilities but have been the recipient. All you have to do is google "spiritual alchemy". This is in Daoist, Zen, Hindi, and western traditions such as Rosicrucians, O.T.O, Templars, etc.

[YouKnowWho]

If someone does posses this ability,

"one's physical movements can be manipulated by someone else's mind, such as punching oneself in one's own face against one's will."

Do you think US government will pay him big money and send him to the battle field and complete missions that nobody else can do?

[KFSON]

If someone does posses this ability,

"one's physical movements can be manipulated by someone else's mind, such as punching oneself in one's own face against one's will."

Do you think US government will pay him big money and send him to the battle field and complete missions that nobody else can do?

I'm not really interested, but I think the U.S. government has a group of people like that.

[YouKnowWho]

There is one in Taiwan too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7mP59MhCks&feature=player_embedded

http://wushu.net.tw/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=1542&extra=page=1&page=1

[KFSON]

There is one in Taiwan too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7mP59MhCks&feature=player_embedded

http://wushu.net.tw/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=1542&extra=page=1&page=1

Now, think about facing your opponent at 20 feet and he puts an electric shock in your brain that sends you to the floor.
It hurts.

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

Eye of Storm... I know you are upset with the mystical comment of our brother here but we both know some things spoken in an unfamiliar context or environment may seem inappropriate. Let me present to you a film:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmHam7Fpyak

This man made a comment that makes me believe he is very conversant and familiar with such presentations of skill and the scientific understanding of it:

"Neither faking nor telekinesis. Action at 2:00 Ma set up oscillations that upset balance. Search for: Manipulation of forward estimation of movement state, by Grant Mulliken. Opponents apply force and Ma leads them into emptiness. 2) Use deep fascia instead of muscle. Standing meditation (stress) converts fibroblasts to myofibroblasts used in the subtle, rapid, muscle-like expansion/ contraction we call chi. His art is the result of years of philosophical research and training. Not magic!"

What Grandmaster Ma is showing is far from what our brother is talking about but what the master presents to us is an accomplishable goal that to most seems impossible but to those who are tirelessly practicing... a realistic goal. And if this then what else is possible?

GM&Dr. Stier, who mentors me in TCM, gave me great encouragement after seeing and correcting some of my training regimines to meet my intended goals of inner cultivation and outer demonstration of MA training. He said to me, "you have all that you need, but.... don't make it happen, let it happen". Such a comment 10 years ago would have had me respond emotionally, OK Buddha what in the heck does that mean. But now after demonstrating some rather unusual and unexpected manifestations in front of my students but not being able to control these phenomena or at-will (continuously) demonstrate them the comment has some value to me.

KFSON and Eyeofstorm we all practice arts that require a conquest of fear and the courage to endure loss and pain to accomplish what is to many people unusual feats of mental, phyisical and spiritual noteworthyness. This is because we are serious practitioners who are willing to do what is impossible to some to achieve it....

Eyeofstorm you are obviously a practical, hardworking MA practitioner who knows what it took to be as proficient in your art as you currently are. I have come to humbly believe that faith in my Art aint got nothing to do with believing in anything. It comes from knowing that the process to achieve what I have faith in will get me there. In the example presented in the film I know what is possible and that my training is a process that will equal or surpass that ability if I keep the faith. It is in this vein that I can understand your disbelief because such a possibility is not the goal of your training path, even as that path is very effective towards the goals you have set with it. Perhaps KFSON's training path is set towards the goals he has witnessed, even as this path is most likely just as effective. I think a Martial Artist is only limited by his/her imagination and perserverance... Both of you brothers are serious MA practitioners to me because I have learned form both....

Thanks to you both for the posts Warriors... G

[WhitePanda]

In the example presented in the film I know what is possible and that my training is a process that will equal or surpass that ability if I keep the faith. It is in this vein that I can understand your disbelief because such a possibility is not the goal of your training path, even as that path is very effective towards the goals you have set with it.

Faith has nothing to do with it. If you shoot someone, it doesn't matter what their believes are, the mass, speed, tradjectory and shape of the bullet can create a greater force than what the victems skull can withstand despite their beliefs.

You can work on your "chi" all you want, that doesn't make it any more real. If I told you that eating the souls of invisible hedge hogs was an effective way of building inner strength, you'd have about the same amount of proof.

If your ability really relies on faith, than I suggest you find some new abilities.

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

White Panda,
Nice to meet ya bro. I am sure you are not following the point of my post. However, I do get the point of yours: If you can't see it, feel it or do it then it doesn't exist. I never said present ability relies on faith bro. I say that faith is based on a personal experience which instills a knowledge or wisdom concerning ones training path and in ones self to perservere in order to reach an imagined and desired goal.

The fact is, is that I don't know you and have not seen what you can do or how you train, but if I had observed and learned all these things about you... and found you a viable source to learn from... and my training path was to build inner strength beyond what I already have and at that time did not have a training reginmine to endure to reach my goal... and you presented the eating of the souls of hedge hogs and then presented an experience that convinced me that this was a viable method... well... I am not sure I would follow that training regimine but I would have to say you definitely had a method to achieve my goal... as nasty as that method might appear to be... lol..

Point is... to me Faith is based on experience or in other words "Knowledge", personal or otherwise, and as such even though I have goals that I have not achieved in MA... I know that they will be achieved because I have Faith in the training process I am pursuing... For right now I have already reached an ability that a year ago would have been impossible... To look beyond the slighted attack you just posted and see a benevolent blogger who I can learn from no matter the provacative nature of the source... Hope this post finds you well.... G

[KFSON]

B. K. Frantzis wrote about a similar teaching he had in China. I think his teacher's name was Liu Huang Chieh.

B. K. Frantzis
http://bagua.up.seesaa.net/image/kumar.jpg

page 241-247 I think:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518ibm7H2TL.jpg

p.s.
I don't know Mr. Frantzis. I only know about him through this book.

[eyeofstorm]

I practice and teach bagua zhang and the video link from youknowwho is of a technique I seen countless times and also done myself. I also know its limitations. It is relatively easy to connect to certain people's energy field and push or pull them without touching. However, it only works on people who's energy field is in tune with your own (about 1 in 10) in my experience and your energy field must be in contact with theirs - it can't be done from a great distance - the most I have seen is about 15 feet away but usually its just a few inches as was shown on that youtube clip. Also the practitioner has to make that energy contact with the other person (atune their own field to the others) which takes a second or two (less with a LOT of practice) but that connection can't be done fast enough to deflect a fast punch. Anyway what would be the point? We have arms to deflect strikes with.

The taichi push hands video was also good and the controversial part at 2.00 is possibly a variation of the the same although I haven't seen it applied that way before. However, the master had plenty of time to make a good energy contact with his partner which made it possible.

These demonstrations are great for showing that a certain skill level exists but that kind of ability is far more suited to healing than to combat. Atuning your energy with that of a sick or injured person can aid enormously in bringing them back to physical and emotional balance. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that taiqi is no good for combat, it can be devastating but that particular skill has limited use in actual fighting.

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

Eyeofstorm,
I agree with you in the aspect that there are so few people that can replicate this ability there may be of no value to the average practitioner... because quite frankly few can consistantly and invariably apply the skill.

But there is a scientific explaination for the ability for those willing to practice long and hard enough and research and study tirelessly as the Master you witnessed. I was told where to find the info and it does check out even though I had to put on my graduate cap to undertand it:

"Neural variability in premotor cortex provides a signature of motor preparation Mark M Churchland1, Byron M. Yu2, Stephen I. Ryu3, Gopal Santhanam2, Afsheen Afshar3, Krishna V. Shenoy1 1 Neurosciences Program and Dept. of Electrical Engineering, Stanford University 2 Dept. of Electrical Engineering, Stanford University 3 School of Medicine and Dept. of Electrical Engineering, Stanford University

How does the brain generate rapid and accurate movements of the body? Much work has focused on the role of sensory feedback and internal models in optimizing control signals during movement. Here we explore the possibility that the optimization of control signals begins during motor preparation, before movement begins. This hypothesis implies that a movement is in large part the product of a motor ‘program’ latent in the preparatory activity. If so, it would seem critical that the brain optimize preparatory activity, so as to get the desired result when the movement is triggered. Given the presumably non-linear mapping from preparatory activity to movement (and thence to likelihood of reward) one suspects that this optimization is reasonably difficult, and might consume considerable time. Our interpretation is that when motor preparation is disrupted just before it is to be translated into movement, execution is delayed until preparatory activity can be re-optimized.

This scientific explaination describes the application of Hua Chin or Attraction into Emptiness but at a very sophisticated and cultivated level; moreover, the explaination coupled with alot of research of the ancient treatise and alot of form and pushhands training makes this level of skill accomplishable and very desirable to achieve: The expectation of presence is continuously changed so fast through oscillation right at the time the opponent wishes to make contact that they are having their mind-computer overload presenting body and brain lock. The process seems to be validated not through the science alone but the application of that scientific expalination to what we all as MA practitioners know is possible and as such can aspire to achieve.

By the way this kind of application can be applied to a striker within his striking range. We all know that pugilistic striking can be illusively used by the adept who integrates Western Boxing with Tai Chi, Bagua, or Wing Chun to significantly weaken the opponents structure. This is done by warding off, slipping, bob & weaving, ducking, rollback, pivoting skills are applied to the 5 Character Secret are superior enough to the opponent's offense we can make that opponent fall over and bust himself up without laying a hand on them other than the "four ounce deflecting 1000 lbs" technique. I believe this is the "moving magic" that requires Sung, Substantial and Insubstantial weighting during transitioning postures, or as John says "Dynamic root" that can create the illusion of presence that attracts the aggresive opponent into emptiness. The opponent will seem to punch at nothing and fall or hit themselves in the effort.

Anyway this has been a very good thread guys and thanks...

[WhitePanda]

You're "explanation" only explains how energy is distributed with in one human body, It does not give any explanation as to how one might put energy into another person without connecting nerves.

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

Yes it does bro' but you may have to re-read Master Feng, Wang and I lu-yueng's treaties. My post assumes that reader is very familiar with them and also has at least decades of experience in the Internal Martial Arts regarding research, reflection form and sparring training in the 10s of thosands hours, as I am sure your have. And agian for me this is only a requirement to at least understand what I saw Master Ma Ya Liuang accomplish in his Push Hand performance. But lets take a quick review of some treatise that might help us understand our ability to accomplish what the master demonstrated. I think your question concerns, as a beginning, adhering with regard to entering anothers nerveous system interpreting energy as a means to establishing a plan to do so (A review of the natures of the 5 Steps will help alot because if you know the nature of a thing you know what it is and is not capable of doing and the nerveous system is the main progenetor of movement. go to http://www.jadedragon.com/articles/illusive.html):

T'ai Chi Cbuan Ching
Attributed to Immortal Wang Chung-yueh

Tai Chi is born of Wu Chi, the mother of yin and yang.
In motion they separate; in tranquility they unite.
Without excess and without insufficiency, be bent when following, contract when reaching out. If the opponent is hard, I am soft; this is called "receiving". If I go with the opponent and cause him to be defective, this is called "adhering". Respond quickly to quick movements, respond slowly to slow movements. Even though the changes are of all kinds, the principle remains one in the same. Through self-mastery you will gradually apprehend "interpreting energy .
From "interpreting energy" you will reach a state of shen, Ming (spiritual illumination).But without a long period of arduous practice, you will be unable to suddenly possess a clear understanding.

Then Master Wang states more that can help us, warn us and also tell us how fortunate we are to even know the boundlessness of the Supreme Ultimate Fist...

The mutual coordination of yin and yang is comparable to "interpreting energy
After you acquire "interpreting energy", the more you practice, the
more skill you will obtain, and through silent remembering and
thorough examination, you will gradually arrive at the state of being
able to follow your own mind.

Man this part is important as it pertains to the first Character Secret of how to have and why to have a calm mind... Such a state is acknowledged when what one does in form is consciously done in fighting no matter what the style. The next part is a confimation of faith based on experience and as such bestowing a knowledge to the Adept concerning the assurance that his/her knowledge of self (Form work) and knowledge of others (Pushhands or sparring) will enable them to reach their goal.

The fundamental here is to forget the self and follow others.
Most make the error of rejecting the near for what is distant.
This is called, "the slightest divergence leads you far astray".
Students must thoroughly distinguish between these aspects.
Every word of this treatise is important.
There is not one extra word or reference.
Without natural intelligence you cannot apprehend these words.

That last part tells me many thing but in the context of this post I remember Fengs poem about the relationship between breathing out and in and touching and standing on the root of heaven (Dragon/Change/Water) and earth (Tiger/Tenacity/claws). Feng gives us this to place ourselves in the now at all times but this is not possible unless on has faith that the training will get them to their goal without thinking about that goal.... just the moment of the training event. The last part is a warning and a message of fortune to those of us who have such goals.


The early masters were unwilling to propagate false teachings and did
not trust just anyone. They were apprehensive about transmitting their kung-fu skills to others without good reason.


Brother Panda, if we do the work the energy connection question is solved for us. After eading this and the scientific explaination I posted please relook at the Masters performance. I think you will find something astonishing as I did the same thing to reach the same conclusion finally..... yeasterday... lol. As Master Wang suggests in his statement about error, we only have to set the goal, use the strategies or postures presented in treatise and stay on the path.... I hope this helps but if not it will always be knowledge you get to when you are ready..... G

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

Yes it does bro' but you may have to re-read Master Feng, Wang and I lu-yueng's treaties. My post assumes that reader is very familiar with them and also has at least decades of experience in the Internal Martial Arts regarding research, reflection form and sparring training in the 10s of thosands hours, as I am sure your have. And agian for me this is only a requirement to at least understand what I was Master Ma Ya Liuang accomplish in his Push Hand performance. But lets take a quick review of some treatise that might help us understand our ability to accomplish what the master demonstrated:

T'ai Chi Cbuan Ching
Attributed to Immortal Wang Chung-yueh

Tai Chi is born of Wu Chi, the mother of yin and yang.
In motion they separate; in tranquility they unite.
Without excess and without insufficiency, be bent when following, contract when reaching out. If the opponent is hard, I am soft; this is called "receiving". If I go with the opponent and cause him to be defective, this is called "adhering". Respond quickly to quick movements, respond slowly to slow movements. Even though the changes are of all kinds, the principle remains one in the same. Through self-mastery you will gradually apprehend "interpreting energy .
From "interpreting energy" you will reach a state of shen, Ming (spiritual illumination).But without a long period of arduous practice, you will be unable to suddenly possess a clear understanding.

Then Master Wang states more that can help us, warn us and also tell us how fortunate we are to even know the boundlessness of the Supreme Ultimate Fist...

The mutual coordination of yin and yang is comparable to "interpreting energy
After you acquire "interpreting energy", the more you practice, the
more skill you will obtain, and through silent remembering and
thorough examination, you will gradually arrive at the state of being
able to follow your own mind.

Man this part is important as it pertains to the first Character Secret of how to have and why to have a calm mind... Such a state is acknowledged when what one does in form is consciously done in fighting no matter what the style. The next part is a confimation of faith based on experience and as such bestowing a knowledge to the Adept concerning the assurance that his/her knowledge of self (Form work) and knowledge of others (Pushhands or sparring) will enable them to reach their goal.

The fundamental here is to forget the self and follow others.
Most make the error of rejecting the near for what is distant.
This is called, "the slightest divergence leads you far astray".
Students must thoroughly distinguish between these aspects.
Every word of this treatise is important.
There is not one extra word or reference.
Without natural intelligence you cannot apprehend these words.

That last part tells me many thing but in the context of this post I remember Fengs poem about the relationship between breathing out and in and touching and standing on the root of heaven (Dragon/Change/Water) and earth (Tiger/Tenacity/claws). Feng gives us this to place ourselves in the now at all times but this is not possible unless on has faith that the training will get them to their goal without thinking about that goal.... just the moment of the training event. The last part is a warning and a message of fortune to those of us who have such goals.


The early masters were unwilling to propagate false teachings and did
not trust just anyone. They were apprehensive about transmitting their kung-fu skills to others without good reason.


Brother Panda, if we do the work the energy connection question is solved for us. As Master Wang suggests in his statement about error, we only have to set the goal, use the strategies or postures presented in treatise and stay on the path. I have experiences that give me faith in a path that will help me reach the level of skill of Master Ma and maybe beyond.... If such goals are within your desires and imagination then I hope this helps but if not it will always be knowledge you get to when you are ready..... G

[WhitePanda]

I don't care what "Master Feng, Wang and I lu-yueng's treaties" say and I have no intention of reading them, as they do NOT change what modern medical science has found (lacking) about "chi."

You may prefer to trust documents that are hundreds of years old, but I prefer to put my trust in modern science. Did you know that the Earth is not in fact flat as originally thought???

Push hands would be better explained with applied physics than with puesdo internal engergy science and ancient chinese documents.


The early masters were unwilling to propagate false teachings and did
not trust just anyone. They were apprehensive about transmitting their kung-fu skills to others without good reason.

You're more gulible than I thought if you believe that.


Theres a video on the net called Chi master vs MMA, I highly suggest you take a look at it.

Brother Panda, if we do the work the energy connection question is solved for us.

No, it's not. The internal energy(neurons) you are refering to requires nerves to travel from one point to another. The amount of training you have does not change that fact. Train as much as you want, it doesn't change basic genetic make up. It won't make you grow three legs, it won't turn you into spiderman and it won't make you able throw chi blasts at your opponent.

If this master is so skilled and so sure of what he believes in why doesn't he put it up to science study from a reputable unbias source??

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

Go easy brother this is just a process and nothing more. Your lashing out is normal during confusion. Many of us in this room have been through the same. The Grandmaster and I were talking about this very thing last night when discussing training accomplishments and the consequences which is normally loss.... and more confusion... lol. Confusion is a good thing cause it means one is about to learn something. In my gullible state I wish you well dude... now lets go one to another subject... G

[WhitePanda]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Go easy brother this is just a process and nothing more. Your lashing out is normal during confusion. Many of us in this room have been through the same. The Grandmaster and I were talking about this very thing last night when discussing training accomplishments and the consequences which is normally loss.... and more confusion... lol. Confusion is a good thing cause it means one is about to learn something. In my gullible state I wish you well dude... now lets go one to another subject... G

I am not lashing out and I am not confused. I am just being real. Chi and Santa don't exist. Believing in them won't change that.

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

Panda I did not see much on your profile and your position is strongly entrenched I would like to know more about you. So Panda how is your Kung Fu going? How many years have you been studying the arts? Who are you teaching? Where are you studying and what style are you studying? Do you have a meditation regimine you can share or a style technique you may suggest?

[WhitePanda]

Panda I did not see much on your profile and your position is strongly entrenched I would like to know more about you. So Panda how is your Kung Fu going? How many years have you been studying the arts? Who are you teaching? Where are you studying and what style are you studying? Do you have a meditation regimine you can share or a style technique you may suggest?

I fail to see how that is relevent to the conversation. You seem to know so much about the inner workings of the human body. Are you a doctor? Where did you study medicine? Is your master a doctor? Where did he study? What journal did you and your master publish your findings on chi and internal energy and how it can be transfered?

Point is, I am not the one making the claims. You're claiming chi exists, you're claiming it can be transfered into other humanbeings, ergo the burdern of proof rests on your shoulders not mine.

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

Panda... Fixation is not needed... you made your point and I made mine... You don't accept what I've said and thats your perogative....I changed the subject so that I could get to know you as a fellow blogger.... now do you wish to share MA Backrounds or are you just wanting to sustain a pointless issue? If you want to do the latter then just ignore my posts or send me a private message and lets leave this page for the other bloggers to discuss more relevent topics... like sharing backrounds and ideas.

I will answer some of your questions and would like to know alittle about you if you are truely interested in knowing my backround:

My mentor in TCM is Grandmaster & Dr. Gary Stier and he studied in China after serving as a Corpsman in the Vietnam War. I have an article series in the Jade Dragon magazine and the Grandmaster and I have been asked to publish some work in a ATCQQA newsletter. Maybe this topic could be something of interest to that audience... ok quid quo pro Panda... lol...

[WhitePanda]

Whatever dude. You still want to believe this stuff, that's your perogative.

[YouKnowWho]

Sometime the fun of the internet discussion is "you don't know who I'm" and "I don't know who you are". The moment that "I know who you are" and "you know who I'm", all the fun is gone.

I once had a pen pal when I was young. After I had sent my letter to her, she dropped her return letter in my mail box without stamp. Following the address, one night I found where she lived. By peaking through the window, I saw a fat girl (also not very pretty) jumped up and down on her bed. I wasn't too sure that was the girl whom I wrote my letter to. She had a school class schedule hanged on her wall. I went home and got myself a high power binoculars. Through my binoculars, I could verify the hand writing on her wall and that was the same hand writing in the letter that she dropped in my mail box. After that day, I stopped my pen pal relation with her.

[inthespirit]

Came across this on youtube today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaXdgD2o5uY

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

Master Wong,
You definitely changed the subject. I am not sure if its an internal or external thing but I kinda like chubby gals with cute faces and sharpe minds. Either way I thank you for the redirect. Hey I wrangeled an invite down your way in June for the Chin Woo Association event. I guess we may meet after all.
I have been looking at some Youtube videos of the event and have found the ceremonies very much like Sikh festivals. They seem to celebrate everything that represents Martial Science.... I am somewhat excited.
How are the dudes in the Rumsoaked room? Don't see the guys much after they booted me.. Well accept Cloudz who invited me here. I heard the story about the head guy circulating my article as an example summary of what the thread was all about that I started, said he thought the article was worth exploring and then was told that it was mine.... Now that made me smile when I was told this... But I learned alot there... Anyway...
What kinda IMA stuff are you researching now?

[WhitePanda]

Hey, is this Chin Woo event organized by Jimmy Wong?

[El Medico]

Disrupting someone at a close distance via visual cues,even enough so that they actually stumble or fall is not unknown.I saw a film of B.K.Frantzis where he did this to his demo partner-but BKF didn't claim it was any sort of energetic transference or somesuch.

So far as has ever been publicly demoed,empty force type practices have only been performed on believers and students.When we get a volunteer who does not know what type of experiment he is actually involved in,-(quite common in many behavioral tests,btw)-cannot see the practitioner attempting to effect him,and the effect happens,we'll believe it.Of course,this is always declined as "the ch'i would hurt the subject."Which makes for a nice and convenient,albeit lame ,exit for the claimant.

Whether I have any experience in IMAs,Greco-Roman wrestling,or tiddlywinks is irrelevant.

Belated welcome to MAP,Angel.

[YouKnowWho]

You definitely changed the subject.
CMA guys are already the minority here. It makes no sense for us to argue among ourselves. :)

My inlaw used to live in Fayetteville one block from the Stacy Weaver and near the Burger King and Walmart. One CLF master that I have met in Taiji Legacy also live in Fayetteville.

Hey, is this Chin Woo event organized by Jimmy Wong?
Yes! It is.

[El Medico]

CMA guys are already the minority here. It makes no sense for us to argue among ourselves. :)......



I can levitate.And turn lead into gold.

Glad you won't argue about that with me.:evil:

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

Yeah. It is probably Master David Chin. He trains very tough students and makes them into good fighters. I was in awe of his students fighting power through stories back in the 80's. In fact it was watching one of his students, while deployed with a Special Ops team in Honduras, that I saw the beauty of Tai Chi and was told I needed to learn it well. I am still on that path... lol.

I met Master Chin for brunch a few years back. He is training a former student of mine in Hung Gar and I believe Yang Style Tai Chi. I have not seen him in quite some time but I think Gary has talked with him and he is well. How is Ya Ya.

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

Hey thanks for the welcome Bro. It is nice to be here. I love your motto at the bottom of your post, Very appropriate for the last few posts. It could have saved me alot of typing... lol... You are right about the part that says many non-contact skills are accomplished only with learnered partners. The scientific paper I was readinging about, that explained the science around what Master Ma Ya Liuang presented in the Pushhands video, said that complex motor functions require mental mapping and modeling which is obviously done through practice and repetition. As an educator familiar with the systems approach to training and a former research student of enhancement of human performance through training, (patterns and pedegogy of creating expertise) I have come to comprehend how emotional content, physical posturing and mental focus bring the nervous system to such situationally high peaks of performance.

IMA Tui Shou or Chi Sao adepts must have incredible high numbers of mental models and the mapping to access them through and by the nerveous system. I hypothesize that the chin connection comes from emotional, physical and mental commonalities established through long hours of similar training amoung adepts. However, when one adept has cultivated the technique to superior levels we witness these feats of non-contact control.

Now about being able to do these things to the uninitiated fighter or belligerent. I agree with you there that non-contact control in the manner of what Master Ma presents is rare if existant at all. In fact I am sure that technique of non-contact control would not work at all. However, there are other types that are probably more lethal and so common that we fail to think of them as non-contact control techniques.

Predators have the ability to freeze their prey. I believe that the control factor here begins at the emotional levels and spreads to the other expressive faculties where a dominant presence is the catalyst. Physical speed or violence of action prior to contact is another catalyst if the physicality is affected first which normally manifests a delayed reaction. Even still more akin to what the article talks about concerning vision yet another catalyst if the mind is attacked.

Of course there is a dominant-submissive, relational quality to this form of non-contact control but the ability is real and very lethal. I have experienced this phenomenon on both sides of the relationship. I have felt the connection to my opponent emotionally, physically and mentally as a partial paralysis in the form of fear (emotion), shock (physical) and confusion (mental). Like the scientific paper stated the paralysis occured just before I was to take action... Like at the instant before I just knew it would not work. I no longer had a calm mind because of this and could not follow his intent nor relinquish my own, as the masters say in the treatise but to my disadvantage. I knew at that time of the event that the source was either from my opponent or from me to my opponent. In this state I have found that my normal ability to defend myself or for the opponent to defend himself, (whether we knew each other or not, or whether we knew the same style of not) was diminished sometimes to the point of being feeble, actually throwing strikes but purposely missing the target and not knowing why, and falling to the ground in anticipation of a blow yet to be delivered. All of these reactions totally not in the normal reaction spectrum of the practitioner affected.

I believe this kind of relational reaction in a combative situation could be classified as non-contact control. In an UFC MMA match there are two examples of this phenomenon: Anderson Silva vs Forest Griffin and Lyota Machida vs Thiago Silva

Again thnks for the welcome..... G

[cloudz]

The way Silva finished Griffin has to be one of the all time classic finishes... That guy is amazing!

[Taiji_Lou]

Dude, you talk too much smack about internal martial artists.

Check it. Taiji is an excellent fighting style. It's useful.

We are here "to be". the only other choice is "not be", and we're already that anyway. You're being a guy typing. I'm being a guy with opinion. I am the typing, the typer, and the opinion. What's wrong with "being something?" eternity is a really, really long time.

Internal martial artists cultivate chi because it makes us strong and healthy. Sure, it's a totally subjective experience, but it's one we can all have. My friend, you sound like you're really frustrated. Don't be! People just "do things." Xia warrior? Dang dude... mad people just like doing the taiji thing. It gives you these awesome like... chi experiences, you know? tingling and all kinds of stuff. Practice your prebirth breathing! Spin the ball, fill your "gas tank"! you're gonna see great results. Of course, you're not like a video game character, you know? But when I push hands I knock my brother waaaay off balance without using strength (Li, you know)? I just kinda fa jing him back into the sand!

Don't take yourself so seriously! It's all in fun.

:rolleyes:

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

"There are those who shift to ‘internal’ martial arts because they’ve been pushed out of the real fighting market by real fighting styles. Teaching taiji or ‘internal’ styles is a way to still make money, and happily catch up all the people who aren’t interested in fighting, and at the same time never have to get involved with the people who are and might embarrass them."

I have recently experienced this observation. It is a dangerous road to travel given the fact that there are internal practitioners who are very capable of demonstrating proficiency in Qigong, Taiji, Xingyi & Bagua as a single complete system of martial arts & science. In the presence of this teacher I made myself endure such incompetence while surpressing my desire to... make my ability known. It was a good lesson in control, humility and introspection.

My recent release of my book, "The Art of Western Tai Chi Ch'uan" has me planning to do book signings and the need for me to be in my best form and function is very important because I am an Internal Martial Artist. I now study under Grandmaster & Dr. Gary Stier, OMD and as I state in my book I train to beat my worst knightmare of an opponent. The efforts helps me know which challenges I should accept and which I should bow to. In the pexecution of this methodology I have found the internal styles of training mind, body and soul finds no grearter enemy than the one I create by situation, denial and fear.

The provacative tone of the Blog author is hard to miss. But it does make one seek the best within and make sure that there is sincerity and honesty in ones professed training regimin. At least this is true from my gut reaction to his posting.... G

[LoSt eGo]

excuse my newbyness, but what does quan mean?

[liokault]

excuse my newbyness, but what does quan mean?


Fist, punch, boxing.

It denotes a style of boxing, so Tai Ji Quan is Great Ultimate fist/boxing

or, as I like to think of it, Alpha and Omega Boxing.

(and Chuan as in tai chi chuan is just another pronunciation)

[El Medico]

Fist, punch, boxing.

It denotes a style of boxing, so Tai Ji Quai is Great Ultimate fist/boxing

or, as I like to think of it, Alpha and Omega Boxing.

(and Chuan as in tai chi chuan is just another pronunciation)

Alpha and Omega?

You found the secret scroll on ancient Greek T'ai Chi?!?!

For a flat fee I'll write one of the introductions for your book.

Lost-he meant Tai Ji Quan.Spelling errors,often the result of getting hit in the head too many tims.

[liokault]

Alpha and Omega?

You found the secret scroll on ancient Greek T'ai Chi?!?!

For a flat fee I'll write one of the introductions for your book.

Lost-he meant Tai Ji Quan.Spelling errors,often the result of getting hit in the head too many tims.

Or of posting while drinking beer!

So, if you don’t like Alpha and Omega, give me your interpretation of "Great Ultimate".

[cloudz]

hmm..

Primordial Fart

[liokault]

hmm..

Primordial Fart

Soooo.....what was there before the edit?

[cloudz]

I had a selection of them, but that was the clear winner..

let's see there was,

Uber ying yang seperation (not bad).. Grand Pubah and Big Shebang. See - rubbish!

[ANGELSGYMSINGH]

Well hello room... I guess I am reborn into MAP..... How is everyone?