Use & Learning of Pentjak Silat [Archive]

pesilat

24-Feb-2002, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by khafra
Anybody ever seen any form of Pentjak Silat used? I know there's plenty; I kinda wanted to learn the lion form when I noticed that the stances used look a lot like Spiderman, which is kinda cool. But then I decided that was a bit of a superficial reason to learn a martial art, plus I've never seen a teacher of the style, or even seen the style used.
Has anyone else out there ever seen a demonstration of it?

I've been studying Pentjak Silat for 7 years. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of systems which fall under the name "Silat." It's a term that's used from Malaysia, down through Indonesia, and into the Southern Philippines. "Pentjak Silat" (or "Pencak Silat" - same pronunciation), though, usually refers to Indonesian systems. In the Southern Philippines they refer to it more commonly as "Silat" ... in Malaysia, they use the term "Bersilat" which literally means "to do Silat."

I'm a bit biased, of course, but what I've seen of Silat is pretty awesome.

My educated guess would be that it was a tiger form, not a lion form, that you saw. I say this for a few reasons. First, I've never heard of a lion form of Silat ... not a huge reason because there are hundreds, if not thousands, of systems of Silat I've never heard of. Second, and in my mind a more compelling reason, tigers are not indigenous to anywhere that Silat was developed. The animal systems I'm familiar with in Silat are tiger, monkey, bat, snake, and water buffalo (some try to mimic the animal, some are merely associated with the animal because of its characteristics). There are quite possibly more ... but I would guess that, as with these, they would be animals that are indigenous to the areas in which the system developed.

The roots of Silat are unknown and predate any recorded history but many consider the roots of Silat (as it is today) to lie in the Majapahit empire. This was a Hindu empire which included Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, and more ... it was a pretty big empire. So Indian martial arts certainly had a hand in the evolution of Silat. What's not known (to my knowledge) is whether Silat began in the Majapahit empire or if there was a previous martial art (or many) that the Indian martial arts influenced during the time of the Majapahit empire.

From what I've seen I'd say that the two most commonly found systems of Silat in America are Mande Muda and Serak (or one of Serak's "child" arts such as Bukti Negara which were derived from Serak). Mande Muda is a composite system which pulls elements from many systems of Silat. These 2 are certainly not the only Silat which can be found in America. A couple of others would be Seni Gayong (a Malaysian system) and Pukulan Tjiminde.

I'm not sure I've answered your question. But hopefully I've given you some useful information ... or given you something to found further questions on :-)

Mike

khafra

26-Feb-2002, 05:04 PM

Quite so! That was quite an answer, and a springboard for more questions. I know the art was developed some place muddy (thus the extremely low stances for stability), and I really don't think it was tiger... Can't remember the untranslated name, though. It'd probably be really hard to find in the US, anyway. Thanks for all the further info, I'll look into it.

pesilat

27-Feb-2002, 04:39 AM

Originally posted by khafra
Quite so! That was quite an answer, and a springboard for more questions. I know the art was developed some place muddy (thus the extremely low stances for stability), and I really don't think it was tiger... Can't remember the untranslated name, though. It'd probably be really hard to find in the US, anyway. Thanks for all the further info, I'll look into it.

That sounds like Harimau from Sumatra. Harimau literally means "tiger." I'm betting that's what you saw. Sumatra is, as I understand it, hilly and muddy so if you get in a fight, you're probably going to end up on the ground anyway so they just start there :-)

It may have been (if this rings a bell) "Minangkabau Harimau" ... "Minangkabau" is a reference to a particular group of people in Sumatra.

However, there are other tiger systems of Silat such as Cimacan and Pamacan ("macan" is a Javanese word for tiger).

Harimau and Pamacan are systems which Mande Muda draws from. There are some people in America doing Minangkabau Harimau under Guru Richard Crabbe de Bordes.

Mike

Kendo_Cougar

27-May-2002, 06:41 AM

Is Silat indonesian Karate style??
I never heard of it, just since i was new around this Forum.

pesilat

27-May-2002, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by Kendo_Cougar
Is Silat indonesian Karate style??
I never heard of it, just since i was new around this Forum.

Well, the word "Karate" is Japanese/Okinawan in origin. So, technically, Silat isn't "Karate" at all. Silat, though, is an umbrella term used to describe many of the martial arts systems from Southeast Asia ... just like "Gung Fu" is an umbrella term for many Chinese systems and "Karate" is an umbrella term for many Japanese/Okinawan systems.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of systems of Silat.

Mike

simonlarcombe

03-Dec-2002, 01:40 PM

I have seen a little Silat demonstrated (although I'm not sure which style, I think it may have been White Eagle) from Malaysia.

The style I saw is similar to Kung Fu, flowing circular movements.

It looks very impressive.

As with many of these arts you will be very lucky to find a good teacher in the West so choose carefully.

TkdWarrior

03-Dec-2002, 02:13 PM

"The animal systems I'm familiar with in Silat are tiger, monkey, bat, snake, and water buffalo (some try to mimic the animal, some are merely associated with the animal because of its characteristics). "

looks like khafra can become "batman" :D
-TkdWarrior-

Freeform

06-Dec-2002, 03:08 PM

I've only seen silat once and that was Dan Inosanto, he made it look real easy, then I tried and b*****ked it up. Its very different from most other styles I've seen.

Colin

YODA

06-Dec-2002, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Freeform
I've only seen silat once and that was Dan Inosanto, he made it look real easy, then I tried and b*****ked it up. Its very different from most other styles I've seen.

Colin

Yes - you did.

I Know coz i wuz there.

:rolleyes:

Freeform

06-Dec-2002, 03:16 PM

I would claim that that statement was self-depreciating humility, but its not...... B*****ks!!!

The day basically consisted of me watching Dan Inosanto do it, then Yoda tried really hard to teach me it, then he started hitting me in the head...... I wonder why :D

Colin

YODA

06-Dec-2002, 03:22 PM

Hmmmm......

---- Teach FF the finer points of the Indonesian Martial Arts.

---- Hit him in the head.

I took the easier option :D

Freeform

06-Dec-2002, 03:23 PM

Hey!

I resemble that comment!!!! ;)

Yoda manages 2 insults in 1

Bows to the master

YODA

06-Dec-2002, 03:25 PM

Hehe - economy of motion :D

nat

07-Jul-2003, 07:24 AM

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that there is no "Lion" form in any kind of Silat. Every form that I've encountered are based on Indonesian animals, and seeing as how there are no Lions in Indonesia, it probably was Harimau.

Fist Of Legend

18-Oct-2003, 07:00 PM

I do Pencak Silat Bongkot Harimau. It's the style of the tiger. I also practiced manyang stile(wasp) and pamor badai(farmers style). I have to say I find Harimau the hardest style of the tree I did. And I find Pencak Silat a very good martial art cause it concentrates on all aspects of fighting and training. (quite like kung fu I think)

tang_sou_dao

18-Oct-2003, 07:20 PM

krys

18-Oct-2003, 08:59 PM

hi,
has anyone seen any silat where the practitioner calls upon a spirit which makes them do unbelievable things? a bit like the fillipino trance or something. My dads seen it and i believe him, whether u do or not its up to u.

I saw some malaysian pesilat do strange things on two tapes after they called animal spirits (crocodile and tiger).... This is a very delicate topic among pesilats as some don't accept these practices according to their religious beliefs and consider it as "black magic" or "sorcery" .....

Every real silat style has internal practices that are supposed to allow you to do "unbelievable things".... not all make use of spirits......

What kind of filipino trance are you refering to?

tang_sou_dao

18-Oct-2003, 09:10 PM

not sure, i referred this to a silat practitioner and i forget what he called it but he said it is similar to where they chant and go into a trance. my dad said there was a name for it in silat but translated into english it means master of or something.

butterfly_knf

22-Oct-2003, 05:02 PM

I can say the word 'trance' makes sense...

First of all, Pentjak Silat itself has two meanings; Pentjak for the 'motion' and 'Silat' for the energy--the inner strength (well- kinda sounds like that).

Yes, there are some style that use trance as a skill. For example:

1. it is often use to harbor a spirit of energy so that the person (medium-you might say) received the spirit's ability in that situation. It can be various, though. Whether it is from a person from the ancient past or etc...

2. The art is trying to contact the physics body with the metaphysics dimension. That way you don't even have to take alot of movement (the most is breathtaking--deep-deep breathtaking :)). So it's kinda like--umm a simulator, you see...

If you ask why is this happened in PS, then the answer is probably the culture.
Ancient culture has ancient belief-that connect straight to nature, whether it worshipped nature or living as a part. It seems that this 'trance' ability was made as a bridge from our ground to the higher one, holyness.
It has a very strong bond to religion, yes it is.

But then, every MA should.
Spiritual ceremony and stuff...
It's the order to restore peace to the heart, right?
That way, you create more focus.

Noodlesoup

05-Nov-2003, 02:46 PM

krys

05-Nov-2003, 03:16 PM

Some Silat practitioners use Guna Guna (black magic) to become faster and stronger.

Guna Guna involves the use of Krissen (a Kris is a dagger with a wavy blade). Most Silat practitioners don't want to have something to do with it, because the "gift" you receive has a "price".

There are better ways to become faster and stronger, true pesilats only use their faith in God's protection....
I heard that some Balinese pesilats use "Black magic"......... I have doubts about it's efficiency, anyway this goes against our code of conduct....

tang_sou_dao

05-Nov-2003, 04:21 PM

ive heard of the kris, but the story i heard was that it shook every time something bad was about to happen and the owner of the knife could talk to crocadiles, but ive also heard of a story of a man who was challenged to a fight ny another silat guy and b4 they fought, the guy that was being challenged said, i will show u sumthing and if u can match it i will fight u. anyway he jumped like 2 storeys high or something. this could be bull@*%$ tho.
my dad has experienced the thing u was tlkin about in point 1 where u can repeat a chant to call a dead spirit to enter ur body and it gives u speed, strength etc. but u have to be pure, e.g. like a strict muslim (and u had to be muslim) but that was about35 years ago.

krys

05-Nov-2003, 04:38 PM

but u have to be pure, e.g. like a strict muslim (and u had to be muslim)

This ("sorcery") goes against the teachings of Islam (and other religions as well), a strict muslim would never do that.....

tang_sou_dao

05-Nov-2003, 04:55 PM

my dad isnt strict but he had to be when he wa a child. some saw it as ok tho

pesilat

05-Nov-2003, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by krys
This ("sorcery") goes against the teachings of Islam (and other religions as well), a strict muslim would never do that.....

Ahh - devil's advocate time - but relabel the "sorcery" as "divine gifts" and you'll find that most religions have, at one time or another, had a place for it.

Mike

krys

05-Nov-2003, 06:10 PM

ive heard of the kris, but the story i heard was that it shook every time something bad was about to happen and the owner of the knife could talk to crocadiles,

In the Philippines crocodiles are symbols of evil.... I also heard of the story of vibrating krisses in Indonesia-Malaysia, then you have the local enchanted puppets made to cast spells on your ennemy or the woman/man you want to marry...

but relabel the "sorcery" as "divine gifts" and you'll find that most religions have, at one time or another, had a place for it.

You are right pesilat, I was refereing of practices invoving "invocation" of (evil) spirits, dead warriors, charms .... this is found in some systems of Malaysia-Indonesia, in the filipino silat system I study it is more on religious rituals (kind of suffi practices) associated with qiqong...

tang_sou_dao

05-Nov-2003, 07:54 PM

yep, and little tiny baby spirits that u can buy that brings you money and it nicks things, but also whoever buys one meet very bad luck at one time. my dad is from singapore and i am familiar of everything being said, it is nice to know that others believe or have heard of this. most think its complete bull

butterfly_knf

06-Nov-2003, 06:39 PM

Please remember that there are no such thing as Black & white magic

All is neutral, the subject is the matter

Actually, a pesilat HAS to be a faithful person. It is ital to his inner practice.
But The Keris itself, has nothing to do with the magic. It is made by nature and sometimes through us, humans.

Yes, there are spirits, genies, whateer you called it... but please do not comprehend it as a "magic".
It's not.

It'a a science of metaphysics. It came from God.

But the practitioner was the one who lead it. It depends on the pesilat itself.

krys

07-Nov-2003, 12:12 PM

I was initiated to the inner practices of silat recently... The exercises I learned invoved dynamic tension exercises that have to be done while meditating-thinking of the creator...

Other exercises I didn't learn yet involve calling "powers" while you keep postures and breath, a.o. the power of the dragon...I am a little confused by this as I dont know how it is possible to concile calling the power of this beast (dragon) and religion ..... I didn't ask my master because he didn't teach it to me yet, maybe somebody can answer me in the meantime.

pesilat

07-Nov-2003, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by krys
I was initiated to the inner practices of silat recently... The exercises I learned invoved dynamic tension exercises that have to be done while meditating-thinking of the creator...

Other exercises I didn't learn yet involve calling "powers" while you keep postures and breath, a.o. the power of the dragon...I am a little confused by this as I dont know how it is possible to concile calling the power of this beast (dragon) and religion ..... I didn't ask my master because he didn't teach it to me yet, maybe somebody can answer me in the meantime.

"power of the dragon" = "tenaga dalam" = "inner dragon"

As far as I know, it's not really a religious thing. This is simply the term used to describe internal energy. Like the Chinese word "chi."

I don't personally consider chi or tenaga dalam to be religious or against religion. But others may take a different view.

Mike

krys

07-Nov-2003, 05:35 PM

"power of the dragon" = "tenaga dalam" = "inner dragon"

Ah that could be the meaning, tenaga dalam.... actually he mentioned also the power of electricity......I was just imagining a dragon like a crocodile....

I once saw peoples getting in trance and behaving like animals, one of them a crocodile (pesilats of another system)... they fought each other like beasts.. at the end of the fight their GM had to slap them on nerve points in order to bring them back.....

Wali

07-Nov-2003, 05:40 PM

There are 2 types of "internal" training (We'll call it that for simplicity).

One of them is the Tenaga Dalam, which incorporates the body's own energy and power, and harnessed via a series of tension & breathing exercises.

The other is a more esoteric aspect, which "calls" upon other things for qualities such as speed, power, etc...

An understanding of Indonesian culture is necessary to understand that they are very mystical people, and a lot of their practices have been incorporated into the many styles of Silat available. Over the years, these mystical aspects were interwoven with established religious practices, hence some of the things mentioned in this board. However, it is not necessary to partake in these disciplines in order to become a good Silat fighter.

Regards
Wali

Fist Of Legend

07-Nov-2003, 05:40 PM

I practice PS for quite some time now. What you guys are talking about(the black magic stuff) is true. But my guess is that you can only learn it in Indonesia self. But what I always say if you want to become faster and stronger, TRAIN. Hard and intensive training is all you can do, and if you believe in youreself you can accomplish a lot!

krys

07-Nov-2003, 06:34 PM

However, it is not necessary to partake in these disciplines in order to become a good Silat fighter.

:) You can fight using only external methods but I think you will miss a lot of what the art could teach you...

Fist Of Legend

08-Nov-2003, 12:05 PM

I have been thinking about something I don't understand. I want to learn a meditation technique that gives you energy. I can meditate as long as I will, mostely one's a week I go to a forest and meditate there for about 3 hours to find inner peace. I got a lot of books about meditating but none of them has some kind of a technique for energy meditation. Can someone help me? thanx

butterfly_knf

15-Nov-2003, 05:15 PM

Krys is right... there just might a miss in learning the art.

But it doesn't really matter whether the time or place.
What matters is how hard you trained yourself to diminished the lack of skills.
Whoever said you can only learn it in Indonesia?
You can always go back to India-- that's where it all start though
:D well yeah- hehehe that's pretty far from here~~

Every MA-st will eventually reach a certain point- a cross of path they had to choose. And it doesn't concern the place. When you do this (meditation) the spirit is all that gain control, so don't feel hopeless.. there's always a chance.

And regarding the meditation of energy...??
Hmm, I thought every meditation gives you energy--

It doesn't only concern the mind but the inner being as well.
Every meditation is connected to a levelled breathing process.
And combined with the sub-conscious movement, each of this stage presents you with the opening of Chi, Kundalini, little by little.

I doubt it that you received nothing from the peace you had in it.
Maybe it doesn't seem to appear cos' you doesn't seem too feel it that way.
It's a matter of realization, though- anyhow...I'm might be too young for this, I hope someone would give a more brighter explanation.

Thanks

Fist Of Legend

15-Nov-2003, 09:02 PM

If I meditate I feel myself reborn yes. I feel energy flowthing within my body. But what I mean is a certain technique that can be used to get stronger and faster at that moment. I it exist...?

krys

15-Nov-2003, 09:06 PM

Well said butterfly_knf

Whoever said you can only learn it in Indonesia?
You can always go back to India-- that's where it all start though
well yeah- hehehe that's pretty far from here~~

So you believe silat comes from India?
Have you seen hindu silat?
I know Bakti Negara is one of the balinese systems, but I was to busy visiting the island to look for it's pesilat's...

butterfly_knf

17-Nov-2003, 11:50 AM

Ah no, Silat came from Java, but the origin of meditation was said to born in India. oc, there are theories that the Javanese culture create the respiration technic on their own. Still, if it's true... the actual concept is the same because it's meant to unified with the higher ground.

And you mean meditation to create certain energy at once? It very possibly was like a hypnos to your own subconscious mind, either way, it's called Sugesti. I believe there's certain ways to do this, and if I'm not mistaken- you need to do several rituals in some lenght of time (including fasting)-- this is the old ways, just like the Buddhist though.

The Javanese has renewed their methods by giving sesajen, etc...
The point is, it is strongl concerned with your faith. It can be various form of how the power swallowed in and reacts to your body. Because when meditating, with the perfect stage of breathing and amount of "vanishing yourself", you controlled all the things that happens on your body. Including multiplying the activation strenght of human anatomy.

And since it can be dangerous...
If you had a good supervisor, you should ask more.

krys

17-Nov-2003, 01:40 PM

Ah no, Silat came from Java, but the origin of meditation was said to born in India. oc, there are theories that the Javanese culture create the respiration technic on their own.

While no extensive research has been done it seems that our filipino silat is close to some systems of silat found in Brunei, Sabah and Sulawesi. I heard there are Javanese related forms silat and others, also heard Silat form Majapahit showed strong similarities with Kung Fu....

In filipino silat and javanese Setia Hati Terare there are ways to get energy at once.... In both cases it invoves breathing and meditation techniques....
Some of these energies are used only in times of great danger because there are some backlashs as you may hurt unintentionaly peoples around you...
Anyway this shouldn't be learned without the supervision of a good guro ro you may loose your mind.

pesilat

17-Nov-2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by butterfly_knf
Ah no, Silat came from Java, but the origin of meditation was said to born in India. oc, there are theories that the Javanese culture create the respiration technic on their own. Still, if it's true... the actual concept is the same because it's meant to unified with the higher ground.

Many people claim that Silat (as we know it today) originated with the Majapahit empire - which was a Hindu empire.

Does that mean that there wasn't an indigenous art that was influenced by the Majapahit and evolved into Silat? No. But I think most people would allow that Indian MA definitely had some impact on Silat.

Mike

butterfly_knf

18-Nov-2003, 03:30 AM

I agree with that.
It's obvious that Hinduism and Buddhism affected Javanese culture since before and after The Majapahit Empire. And then uniting Kejawen in Islam --> Kebatinan.

I wonder, since 'everyone' is directly & indirectly attracts back to the Indian philosophy- it is possibly true that the first core of the world's wisdom rooted from there.

I used to discuss this with my supervisor.. and in my growth, I was taught to live with every positive aspect of religious form of the world. Even as I, a moslem, I perceive the Christian teachings, the bible, and even asked for the truth of our originated belief....

And I found no difference. Unfortunately, this kind of perception was not allowed in my school at that time, and I was quite--well, anarchist to them.

Every beliefs is good and useful. And if we trace back to our past history, our 'separate form' caused only by our various characteristic, but the last destination is always same.

So as MA, you should learn whatever you wanted to, to accepted it as one.

hey, we have the all same ancestors, far way back there... I'm pretty sure the real meaning of Martial Arts is One Way of reaching Godliness, through the basic need as a human, physicly and spiritually... to survive, and relatively understand others.

krys

18-Nov-2003, 12:01 PM

Many people claim that Silat (as we know it today) originated with the Majapahit empire - which was a Hindu empire.

Does that mean that there wasn't an indigenous art that was influenced by the Majapahit and evolved into Silat? No. But I think most people would allow that Indian MA definitely had some impact on Silat.

It is difficult to trace the origin of aparticular martial arts style in the Philippines due to a lack of written records. The term "Silat" may not even have been used as a label by every group that was practicing native combat arts during the early period. The concern then was in developing fighting efficiency, rather than in preserving lineage, which is common in Chinese, Japanese and Korean tradition. Any researcher who attempts to study the organizational structure of Silat using the East Asian framework can be easily mislead.
Each generation of Moro fighters may have constantly changed "labels" or may not even bother to attach a name to an art that simply kept evolving and improving with the passage of time.
I don't believe Silat originated from one single place.... my opinion is that silat is just a label for different martial arts that developped in the Malay world.

pesilat

18-Nov-2003, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by krys
It is difficult to trace the origin of aparticular martial arts style in the Philippines due to a lack of written records. The term "Silat" may not even have been used as a label by every group that was practicing native combat arts during the early period. The concern then was in developing fighting efficiency, rather than in preserving lineage, which is common in Chinese, Japanese and Korean tradition. Any researcher who attempts to study the organizational structure of Silat using the East Asian framework can be easily mislead.
Each generation of Moro fighters may have constantly changed "labels" or may not even bother to attach a name to an art that simply kept evolving and improving with the passage of time.
I don't believe Silat originated from one single place.... my opinion is that silat is just a label for different martial arts that developped in the Malay world.

I agree completely. In fact, I would say that this is actually true of every martial art. If you trace it back far enough, you run out of written records - but you know that's not the start of it. Even if you find the start of a particular system (i.e.: Aikido can be traced back to its start), there's almost always going to be another system that was its root (i.e.: as Daito Ryu Aikijutsu was to Aikido) and if you trace it back, you'll find the same - another root or a deadend on the records.

This is my problem with the people who claim that all martial arts started in [name a place]. Martial arts develop through a need for survival. One person lives long enough, they figure some things out. Then they pass those things on to their friends/family to help ensure their survival. And they pass it on - ad nauseum. And, given human nature, I'd bet that this didn't happen in a single place. It happened many places throughout the world and throughout history. Over time, the process of "passing it on" became more formalized and we wound up with the prehistoric roots of martial arts systems. But I think the actual roots of all martial arts predate any kind of record keeping simply because survival always comes before paperwork ;)

Mike

butterfly_knf

19-Nov-2003, 02:25 AM

Good point, that makes alot of sense.:rolleyes:
That's why we had many similarities. Because it is a metamorfosis process of our survival needs.

pesilat

19-Nov-2003, 03:45 AM

Originally posted by butterfly_knf
Good point, that makes alot of sense.:rolleyes:
That's why we had many similarities. Because it is a metamorfosis process of our survival needs.

Yup. I've heard the following phrased in many ways over the years. This is my phrasing of it and the longer I train, the more truth I see in it.

There are only a certain number of ways that the human body can move, be moved, or be affected. When you limit those methods only to those intended to bring harm to another or preserve yourself (as we do in MA), the number becomes even smaller.

That means that there is a pool of concepts and principles that work. It's a big pool, but relatively finite.

That means that any martial art that is effective will draw from that same pool of concepts and principles to develop its techniques.

That means that any two arts that grapple will be drawing from the same part of the pool and will share many concepts and principles. Any two arts that strike will share many concepts and principles.

What makes each system unique is how it approaches the pool, what it draws from the pool, and what emphasis it places on what it draws.

If you learn to look for the underlying concepts and principles you start seeing all the similarities between various systems which, in turn, helps you understand and appreciate the difference in "flavors" between the systems. And when you see a difference in flavor, you usually only have to look as far as the environment/culture in which the system was developed to find out why that system approaches the concept/principle in that specific way.

So, personally, when I'm cross training, I don't worry so much about the differences between systems. Differences are easy to spot and that's where most people stop looking. I try to look deeper and find the similarities. By doing that, I can gain a deeper understanding of the underlying concepts and principles and, in turn, a deeper understanding of the systems which use those concepts and principles.

Mike

SteveJKDUK

19-Nov-2003, 02:44 PM

I attended Cass Magda seminar a few weeks ago (which was amazing to say the least), and one of the questions raised was the origins of Silat. I don't think it's an easy task attempting to trace the art back to day one, or the original source, but he did mention that the Indian and Chinese martial arts both influenced Silat.

There are only a certain number of ways of doing things, which leads to similarities between all the different systems.

I find the whole thing really fascinating. When I have time, I might look into the history of Silat in more detail. Mind you, there aren't really many books out there on the art.

butterfly_knf

19-Nov-2003, 05:06 PM

To be honest, Silat was not as famous as any other MA. :cry:

:D oh well, my Guru once told me, perhaps it's true that in the past- Silat practitioners don't do much on promotioning their art...?!?!?!

Or maybe it was too much of a tradition, until group like the KPS Nusantara made a progress in 1973 (I've read about them).

To be honest, Silat was not as famous as any other MA. :cry:

:D oh well, my Guru once told me, perhaps it's true that in the past- Silat practitioners don't do much on promotioning their art.

Or maybe it was too much of a tradition, until group like the KPS Nusantara made a progress in 1973 (I've read about them).

Btw I'm pretty shocked when I heard many Westerners do actually practice it (And feel grateful also). And it is always true that MA is based on what your anatomy can do to act and react.

A very good point indeed...
maybe that's why my Guru never taught me any names in Silat. I was confused at first, but now I understand.

pesilat

19-Nov-2003, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by butterfly_knf

To be honest, Silat was not as famous as any other MA. :cry:

:D oh well, my Guru once told me, perhaps it's true that in the past- Silat practitioners don't do much on promotioning their art.

Or maybe it was too much of a tradition, until group like the KPS Nusantara made a progress in 1973 (I've read about them).

Btw I'm pretty shocked when I heard many Westerners do actually practice it (And feel grateful also). And it is always true that MA is based on what your anatomy can do to act and react.

A very good point indeed...
maybe that's why my Guru never taught me any names in Silat. I was confused at first, but now I understand.

Pak Herman Suwanda used to talk about when he was young. His father was teaching him Silat and he kept it a secret. Some days, he couldn't hold a pen at school because his hands/arms were too sore. But when asked, he'd make up something rather than tell his teachers or classmates that he studied Silat. He said that, in those days, Silat was considered something that only criminals studied. He said other arts like Karate and Judo were much more popular in Indonesia because "which would mom rather see: her son wearing a nice white uniform or a dirty and torn sarong?"

Here in America, Silat is still pretty rare. There are more people training in it than you might expect but, comparatively, it's still not very widely studied or available. For every one Silat practitioner, there are probably 300 Kung Fu practitioners, 500 Karate practitioners and 1000 TKD practitioners.

And while I just pulled those numbers out of thin air, I wouldn't be surprised if they're relatively accurate. Though Silat is gaining popoularity slowly - which may or may not be a good thing. The more popular something gets the more people try to cash in on its popularity and you often end up with people pawning off garbage as gold. And it's already started happening with some of the Silat I've seen here in America. Same with the Filipino arts and others.

Mike

krys

19-Nov-2003, 09:10 PM

Silat in the Philippimes has always been kept a familly secret. Even inside the familly/clan usually only two children who were talented or needed it got instruction in the art, other children usually learned escrima &or kuntao.
People would never admit they practice it.....
today filipino muslims often say they practice kickboxing, karate or tae kwon do when they actually practice silat or kuntao in secret.

There is a tendency to water down silat.... this is mostly because of competition, other reason are that e many peoples in the west have a poor understanding of Malay culture and don't know what real silat is. Students get too easily conned by fake guros who teach them showy killing techniques (who won't work on a moving opponent) or preach the mystical side of silat when they have no understanding of it....

SteveJKDUK

19-Nov-2003, 10:51 PM

Another reason is that there aren't really any films that use Silat. People prefer to see fancy kicks and stuff. Kali/Escrima seems to crop up now and then, but then they are not promoted as FMAs. People still assume this is kung fu or another well known martial art.

Personally, I'd hate the art to be watered down and filtered to the masses like that. I'm just a beginner to Silat, but I do love it for some reason! Mind you, I love most things to do with martial arts!

ICT

20-Nov-2003, 07:51 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by butterfly_knf
[B]
Yes, there are spirits, genies, whateer you called it... but please do not comprehend it as a "magic". It's not.

It'a a science of metaphysics. It came from God.

Oh Really,

Which God would that be?

Also which of the following says that;
1) The Bible
2) The Koran
3) The Torah

Just very curious,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

ICT

20-Nov-2003, 10:11 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SteveJKDUK
[B] the questions raised was the origins of Silat. I don't think it's an easy task attempting to trace the art back to day one, or the original source, but he did mention that the Indian and Chinese martial arts both influenced Silat.

All good post,

Silat is relatively a new word. Silek, Kali & Pukulan are much older words for the fighting arts of Indonesia.

From my research and study of the Indonesian Fighting Systems it seems that there were indigenous fighting methods in Indonesia before the Indians came and brought there fighting methods. These two mixed and the Indonesian fighting methods changed.

Then the Persians came bringing their fighting methods. Again the two mixed and the Indonesian fighting methods changed.

Then the Arabians came bringing their fighting methods. Again the two mixed and the Indonesian fighting methods changed.

Now of course this was way back thousands of years ago and these fighting methods aren't what we think of today as a martial art, but back to an era where it was pure technique and where no forms had yet been invented.

Now was every island in the archipelago affected by one, all, or any of these invading cultures? No, not necessarily so we have to look at the larger more heavily populated islands like Sumatra, Java, & Celebes where the biggest cultural impact would have occurred and produced a time line of evidence. Which it did.

There are so many tribes scattered throughout the archipelago that none of them could have evolved the same way depending on what immigrants helped shape their culture and fighting arts. You will find five distinct religions like Paganism, Hinduism, Muslim, Buddhism & Taoism before the Christians arrived of course. Now Paganism is the only indigenous religion to the region so any culture believing in any thing else had to be influenced by one of the previous races and that means their Pencak Silat had to be influenced by this race as well.

Now some of the more recent styles of Pencak Silat on the larger islands of Indonesia would look very similar to today’s styles of Karate, Kung Fu, Aikido, Judo and etc because in the last 60 years or so these modern industrialized islands have been introduced to these styles. These foreign styles have been incorporated into many of the modern Pencak Silat styles.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

krys

20-Nov-2003, 07:05 PM

Actually there remain native fighting styles in the malay archipellago that are not called silat.
In the southern Philippines the word kuntao is sometimes used for some systems that are in fact silat......

ICT

20-Nov-2003, 08:14 PM

Krys,

Good point!

Yea the Silat & Kuntao naming even makes it more difficult to figure out what a style is or where it came from.

Here are 5 factors that can mess up the study of a styles history:

1) Named Kuntao but really Silat.
2) Named Silat but really Kuntao.
3) Has a Silat and a Kuntao name.
4) Silat mixed with Kuntao.
5) Kuntao mixed with Silat.

This is why there is so much confusion when people from other arts view Silat. They have no idea if they’re seeing a pure Pencak Silat style, a Silat/Kuntao mixed style or a Kuntao style being called Silat.

I have had Kung Fu stylist argue with me that they have seen Silat and it's no different than what they do. When my investigation was over, what they actually saw was a Kuntao style, which would look almost exactly like what they do.

Now try telling one of them about the 5 factors from above after they viewed a demonstration first hand from an Asian who said it was Silat! ( Oh Damn, you can forget about it cause they saw "Silat" )

So now when people tell me they have seen Silat and they weren't impressed or their style does that also I don't freak out because I know that they don't no if they saw Silat or not.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

pesilat

20-Nov-2003, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by ICT
Here are 5 factors that can mess up the study of a styles history:

1) Named Kuntao but really Silat.
2) Named Silat but really Kuntao.
3) Has a Silat and a Kuntao name.
4) Silat mixed with Kuntao.
5) Kuntao mixed with Silat.

And don't forget all the linguistic issues with various spellings and pronunciations.

From Indonesians, I've usually seen "Kuntao" and from Pilipinos, I've usually seen, "Kuntaw."

Depending on the region/influences, I've seen:
Pencak
Pentjak
Penca
Pentja

Silek
Silak
Sila
Silat

Juru
Djuru
Djoeroe
Joeroe

Serak
Sera
Serah

Cimande
Tjimande

Etc. - and each grouping is of the same words just spelled differently. If someone trying to research a system's history, for instance, is unaware of all of this, then they will easily get confused.

And I'm sure there are other issues.

And pronunciation can be tricky. I once said, "Bukti Negara" to a Dutch Indonesian woman. I was talking about a specific system of martial arts that is one of the more common ones here in the U.S. She asked me to pronounce it again, slowly. I did. Then she said, "You should be more careful with your pronunciation. I first thought you said, 'Putih Negara.' 'Bukti Negara' would mean 'evidence of a continent' [or something similar - there are several possible shadings of meaning] but 'Putih Negara' would mean 'white continent' - which would have entirely different connotations."

Of course, this type of linguistic problem is encountered when researching any martial art. Chinese words can have totally different meanings just based on the syllabic inflections. And the written characters often convey (to a Chinese) many different shadings of meanings that are inseparable. When we try to translate to another language, those shadings are often lost and, in turn, our perspective becomes limited. And, really, the same is true of any language.

Mike

butterfly_knf

21-Nov-2003, 05:53 PM

Oh Really,

Which God would that be?

Also which of the following says that;
1) The Bible
2) The Koran
3) The Torah

Just very curious,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

:( I'll take it widely, ICT.
I don't think human should divine God based on our definitions.
How do you present a God as a higher being/essence?
There are many beliefs in this world, but the creator are one and only.

Like I said, there are no white & black magic- all is same.
If we exist in our physics/conscience world, so as our metaphysics/sub-conscience.

Or you never felt such strangeness before? connecting through dreams or seeing an 'unsual'?
Then how of spirit of energy? How of the 'spark' that the Bible, Koran---were talking about?

I'm saying such because it is from God, and God only, since it is the only first existence of 'everythingness'.

Many people would not agree to my thought, that's ok. But I have the courage saying it, because I came from that culture. My surrounds became the witness. And it's not about right or wrong, it's about living your life they way you truly believe it.

IF one religion WAS made as a perfect one, then why'd bother with varieties? It's a process oc, a necessity to reach completeness. Yes, I know how to define Satan and God, you should not doubt me for that, I've been through my adolescens and I am pretty much alive:D

So please understand the others pesilat who might have a slight difference way in their practice, but yes, if you sees more to it, I am sure many people would changes their perception towards myticism and reality.

It's a hard wonder, (did you notice, our logic is now beginning to reach the understanding of God-and-superhuman?)
We, Human changes the world, but we're no God, and I'm fully aware of it.

ICT

24-Nov-2003, 06:41 AM

butterfly_knf,

Well my thing is this; if you want to get theoretical then everything is from God even Satan!

But what I am talking about is your quote "spirits, genies, whateer you called it" being from God.

In fact these things are from Satan, not God and should not be messed with at all.

I do concur that Magic is neither black Or white but the people who use it are. We have to define the actions of a person so if you use magic to heal then white and if you use magic to harm then black.

Bottom line is that the 3 major religions Christianity, Judaism and Muslimism all talk about demons, spirits, possessions and etc. and they warn against them!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

butterfly_knf

25-Nov-2003, 05:13 PM

truly, you are breaking my mood now

How do you expect me to such answer--?
Funny, how there are lots of thing that our 'holyness' did not put altogether in the book- those which we need to learn ourself.

Since the very first history of man,
The all we ever learned as a connector of human to God is 'magic'. And I don't mean magic, but spiritual path.
And if it's so spiritual of what we comprehend for, then we would until nowadays called it magic, since we always assume 'mystical' lays fingers on every thing that we cannot accept to understand.

But come to face of it, our present time mostly knows nothing about our ancient wisdom.

So, there are possesions, but in what term?
Yes, there are black & white magic, but in what kind of use?

What is the truth of our rationality based on?
Now that we are seeing a world that is inconstanly changing, calling for morality to grow?

I can't live- holding with only one 'book' in my hand.
I have to seek out the others. There are no perfection in our world.. no, it onlt exist within spirits.
And in those learnings, I found no restrictions of such pace to the other side.

Rules are made, so as us won't go over the line. But it's not such taboo as many people talked of.

Yes, religions warns about our counterfering with the non-human side. But the Koran itself, teach us to make peace with nature and Djin(or any other mystical life form), and I'm sure there are many who does. In Silat we do not 'use' them, we treat them as a life form, a being. And we do not summoned them- and if there are, I assure you.. they are misled.

Please, it is not made the same as the profanity culture. And the last thing I need to discuss is probably the sources of religious preach. I very much dislike differences, since we all came from one God. Why do we need to raze our 'body' apart so many times..?