Karate and TKD

[Mark]

Can someone tell me the basic difference between Karate and TaeKwonDo? I know that they have different origins but I'm always confusing the two. Thanks.

[Freeform]

TKD use whats called the 'sine wave' to generate power, this is generally not used in Karate. The sine wave works on the principle (feel free to correct me Chazz :) ) on a 'bobbing' motion, on the bottom of the 'bob' the strike is thrown driving the weight of the body behind it.

Both arts use what is termed as 'reaction force' but in my experience its stressed more in Karate, probably because of the absense of the Sine Wave. If you throw a strike with one arm the other is drawn back to generate more twist in the hips for more power.

TKD advocate that when punching the back leg is straight with the toes facing foward to create a stronger stance, in Karate the foot points off to 45 degrees and the knee is slightly bent to allow protection if the leg were to be attacked.

Also there is different emphasis in the breathing used between the two arts.

Colin

Waits for Chazz and Andrew Green to turn up and tell him he's wrong.

[STASH]

All I'm gonna say is that they are two completely different arts, I'll let the big boys (Chazz and Andrew Green) take it from here, lol.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Not all TKD styles use the sine wave.

Some karate styles do use it, although not necessarily by the same name.

TKD tends to be more focussed towards kicks.

Karate tends more towards hand work.

And that's just used up all of my knowledge of them both.

[darlph]

Karate is usually Japanese with the slightly different stance. There is Korean karate" Mas Oyama for instance. Mainly, TKD is Korean with the flair for kicking. Sure they both do the same basic moves, but you'll find a TKD stylist does alot more kicks and alot of them will be off the ground. I've studied both and I know it's confusing to most people because they look alike, but if you're watching sparring of the Traditional syles of the two, it would be more obvious the differences. The more modern teachings have a tendency to "blend"(?) the movements. I know the forebalance and alot of the blocks are the same, but the kicks are quite flashy in TKD.
At this point of time, I believe alot of the non-traditional schools have combined different techniques of other styles to their cirriculums. To enhance a martial artists' skills.

[waya]

TKD uses alot of hip motion for generating power also. It depends on the instructor teaching it and how they were taught.

In WTF TKD there is virtually no hand striking, Reverse punch, knifehand, hammerfist, sometimes jabs, and a simple backfist strike are basically all I have seen taught.

The blocks are also very simplistic.

The kicks are thrown completely different in TKD also. Everything is chambered, where alot of kicks in Karate aren't chambered as tightly. Especially crescents and spinning kicks.
The roundhouse in TKD strikes with the instep or shin area, in Karate it strikes with the ball of the foot.

Rob

[Freeform]

The roundhouse in TKD strikes with the instep or shin area, in Karate it strikes with the ball of the foot.

Some schools of Karate teach to kick with the in-step also now because they are more sport orientated.

Also, TKD blocking techniques seem to be more 'clipped' than Karate ones.

Thanx

[Mike Flanagan]

I've noticed in this thread some interesting comparisons between specific techniques in Karate and TKD. The reality is that there are many many Karate systems both new and old that do things in a myriad of different ways. For instance I have seen karateka do roundhouse kicks with the instep, the ball of the foot and the shin. I've seen highly chambered snap roundhouse kicks and low and dirty swinging roundhouse kicks - all done by different (and sometimes the same) Karate styles.

Perhaps it is more useful to look at the history of the 2 arts. Basically much of TKD arose out of Shotokan Karate. General Choi, the founder of TKD studied Shotokan for a few years (I believe he reached 2nd dan but I'm not 100% sure) before founding TKD. Originally TKD even used the Shotokan kata. Some styles of TKD still, but nowadays the ITF and WTF have their own forms - which are clearly inspired by Karate kata. Hence you will see a great similarity in the hand techniques and stances of the 2 arts. Where TKD really deviated from Karate was in its kicking. In my opinion the kicking skills were indigineous to Korea, although possibly General Choi developed it further - I don't know. From what I've seen, good Taekwondo people are about the best in the world at high, powerful and varied kicking - if that's you're bag. Having said that I have seen some Karate people who have extremely powerful kicks, although rarely the same variety.

Mike

[Melanie]

Welcome Mike to our little forum :)

I have to say I am still overawed to have been hit by you yesterday! I shall try and maintain the bruises as long as I can :)

(Hahaha)

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Yeah yeah, just because you've got bruises to show for your work. I sweated my guts out and I've got a pathetic little tiny pin***** red mark at the top of my cheekbone to show for it. :(

[Mike Flanagan]

Hi Melanie

>Welcome Mike to our little forum

Thanks. I'll try not to be too outspoken.

>I have to say I am still overawed to have been hit by you yesterday! I shall try and maintain the bruises as long as I can.

I enjoyed giving you them:) but don't be overawed. I collected a few such trophies myself, as you noticed. Those Kung Fu people really impressed me (I've met Neil and Dave before), and their students have a lot of spirit:)

Mike

P.S. I take it you got my interview OK?

[wayofthedragon]

Great responses from every one:D I'd like to add also that TKD focuses a lot on kicks unlike karate, that has kicks, but in TKD they focus more on them. Karate also focuses much more on hand techneiques than TKD does. As some one mentioned, the origin is also different.....Well, :confused: I can't say much more than that, because I don't know too much about the two
:confused:
I hope all this has been helpful so far;)

[Andrew Green]

Waits for Chazz and Andrew Green to turn up and tell him he's wrong. [/B][/QUOTE]

Since you asked ;)

Originally posted by Freeform
TKD use whats called the 'sine wave' to generate power, this is generally not used in Karate. The sine wave works on the principle (feel free to correct me Chazz :) ) on a 'bobbing' motion, on the bottom of the 'bob' the strike is thrown driving the weight of the body behind it.


Different schools of karate will use different methods to generate power. I'm not to familiar with TKD and what they refer to as the "Sine wave", but it sounds like a concept I learnt through karate and continue to teach as karate. But I wouldn't describe it as a "bob" so perhaps its something a bit different.

Different situations are better suited to different methods of hitting. There are many ways of doing this, I think its best to become familiar with as many as you can. There are only so many ways of generating power in a straight punch, dropping the weight is one, which seems to be what you're describing.



Both arts use what is termed as 'reaction force' but in my experience its stressed more in Karate, probably because of the absense of the Sine Wave. If you throw a strike with one arm the other is drawn back to generate more twist in the hips for more power.


There are different schools of thought on this. But I don't believe that this should be done for that purpose in application. It's a teaching aid and can be applied for other purposes. Withdrawing the non-punching hand like that opens you up a little to much for my tastes. One example of how this might be appliedis the one hand can be drawn back in that manner to jerk someone forward as you punch them.


TKD advocate that when punching the back leg is straight with the toes facing foward to create a stronger stance, in Karate the foot points off to 45 degrees and the knee is slightly bent to allow protection if the leg were to be attacked.


Again this is not really accurate, it depends on the branch of karate when it comes to basic technique as practiced in the kata.

Goju ryu uses sanchin dachi in which the back foot is pointed forward or turned slighty inward. Shorin ryu the back foot points out naturally. Isshin ryu both point forward. It depends.

How it will actually work out in application depends on the distancing, and the fighting style of everyone involved.



Also there is different emphasis in the breathing used between the two arts.

Colin


Sometimes (seeing a theme here), some karate schools teach controlled breathing, others just breath naturally.

===

The differences between karate and TKD are hard to describe because there is a large range of differences between the different schools under each title.

Okinawan karate is different from Japanese karate is different from modern "sport" karate.

and a lot of the time the ads are of no help. A school may advertise itself as "traditional x-ryu karate" but in reality they train for kata competition and point sparring.

and in some styles that is traditional...

But in general, TKD focuses much more on kicks. Karate kicks are low line, usually below the belt. TKD favors high kicks and lots of spinning.

Karate is done at a closer range, we like to get in tight and grab you.

TKD tends to spend more time sparring, at least WTF TKD, its an olympic sport and the national sport of Korea. The sparring is the sport.

As has been stated Gen. Choi (and other korean instructors) studied Shotokan (Japanese karate) and as a result early TKD looked a lot like Shotokan, same forms, same training methods. Since then TKD has evolved (for better or worse) away from that to focus more on kicking and developed its own forms.

TKD, before being called Tae Kwon Do, was refered to under a number of different names. Kong soo Do (korean pronucitation of Karate-do), tang soo do (korean of Tote-do: tote is an older name for karate meaning T'ang hand, or China hand)

So TKD comes from Shotokan karate and Shotokan karate comes from Okinwan Karate. Lots changed at each step as the art was adapted to fit the different cultures. But lots remained as well.

Anyway others can tell you more about TKD techniques.

[Mike Flanagan]

Hi Andrew

Just looked at your website. Its nice to come across fellow students of the older Okinawan kata. Good to make your 'acquaintance'.

[QUOTE]
Different schools of karate will use different methods to generate power. I'm not to familiar with TKD and what they refer to as the "Sine wave", but it sounds like a concept I learnt through karate and continue to teach as karate. But I wouldn't describe it as a "bob" so perhaps its something a bit different.
[\QUOTE]

I may be mistaken but I believe this refers to the Taekwondo idea of using the rising and falling of the hips in generating punching power - ie. your hips rise as bring your rear foot forwards then the hips fall as you step out into a forward stance. Which is what you seem to be describing.

[QUOTE]
There are different schools of thought on this. But I don't believe that this should be done for that purpose in application. It's a teaching aid and can be applied for other purposes. Withdrawing the non-punching hand like that opens you up a little to much for my tastes. One example of how this might be appliedis the one hand can be drawn back in that manner to jerk someone forward as you punch them.
[\QUOTE]

I don't even see it as a training aid. If its not doing something to hurt the other person then you shouldn't be doing it in my opinion. In fact, we don't do it in our basics. Instead the reaction hand comes back to a guard position. We do, of course, include it in the Okinawan kata - where it has a direct combative purpose.

[QUOTE]
Goju ryu uses sanchin dachi in which the back foot is pointed forward or turned slighty inward. Shorin ryu the back foot points out naturally. Isshin ryu both point forward. It depends.
[\QUOTE]

Personally I quite like having the rear foot facing fairly forwards and certainly no more than 45 degrees from the front. But of course, it depends on your intent at the time. I find the forward facing version appropriate for sliding forwards in stance.

[QUOTE]
Sometimes (seeing a theme here), some karate schools teach controlled breathing, others just breath naturally.
[\QUOTE]

I was slightly puzzled by the earlier comment about the breathing being different between Karate and TKD. I don't recall any significant difference between the breathing in the WTF and ITF Taekwondo I studied on the one hand, and Wado ryu (or Shotokan) on the other, or indeed Shorin ryu.

Mike

[Andrew Green]

Hi Mike,


I don't even see it as a training aid. If its not doing something to hurt the other person then you shouldn't be doing it in my opinion. In fact, we don't do it in our basics. Instead the reaction hand comes back to a guard position. We do, of course, include it in the Okinawan kata - where it has a direct combative purpose.


Exagerating a motion for beginners. Like you I only use this in kata, but just because it can be applied to a combative purpose doesn't mean it always should. Sometimes its just there to teach motion...



Personally I quite like having the rear foot facing fairly forwards and certainly no more than 45 degrees from the front. But of course, it depends on your intent at the time. I find the forward facing version appropriate for sliding forwards in stance.


Me too, but its a personal preferance thing. Some people prefer to fight more sideways.


I was slightly puzzled by the earlier comment about the breathing being different between Karate and TKD. I don't recall any significant difference between the breathing in the WTF and ITF Taekwondo I studied on the one hand, and Wado ryu (or Shotokan) on the other, or indeed Shorin ryu.

Mike

Goju-ryu, Isshin-ryu, uechi-ryu, To'on ryu, Kyokushin, etc. Branches which use sanchin as a base kata focus on breathing more.

[Freeform]

Hi All,

I told you the big boys would turn up and correct me :) Still waiting on Chazz and Waya to represent TKD!

Andrew, I'm afraid that I was trying to generalise my answer as regards to 'Karate'. What many people don't realise is that to bandy around the word Karate to describe an art is the same as using the term 'Kung Fu' for anything chinese.

Another diffenece between TKD and 'Karate' (or at least some schools of Karate) is the application of throws, sweeps and locks.

Thanx

[Mike Flanagan]

Hi Andrew

Originally posted by Andrew Green
Hi Mike,

[B]

Exagerating a motion for beginners. Like you I only use this in kata, but just because it can be applied to a combative purpose doesn't mean it always should. Sometimes its just there to teach motion...



Fair point.


Me too, but its a personal preferance thing. Some people prefer to fight more sideways.



Agreed, although I teach people to use a much more forward facing stance with the hands open. Sideways is something for sparring rather than self-defence in my view.


Goju-ryu, Isshin-ryu, uechi-ryu, To'on ryu, Kyokushin, etc. Branches which use sanchin as a base kata focus on breathing more.

I'm playing with Sanchin (and Tensho) myself. Yeh, I know. What's a nice Shorin guy like me doing playing with Naha kata? But I do find inner-circular stances are of great value. And what better kata to teach their use. I also find it useful for working on breathing, but I do prefer a softer open hand way of working it, rather than the Japanese Goju way. I'm a complete amateur with these kata though.

Mike

[waya]

Another diffenece between TKD and 'Karate' (or at least some schools of Karate) is the application of throws, sweeps and locks.

If you've seen throws and locks in TKD you're one of few in my experience. Chazz can speak better for ITU/ITF, but I've never seen them applied in WTF. Sweeps are of course because of the kicking techniques, but most I've seen were very impractical and flashy.

Rob

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Freeform
Hi All,

Andrew, I'm afraid that I was trying to generalise my answer as regards to 'Karate'. What many people don't realise is that to bandy around the word Karate to describe an art is the same as using the term 'Kung Fu' for anything chinese.


Generalizations can be dangerous, they usually don't work.

Styles of karate might not vary as much as Wing Chun and Northern Wushu, but they can get pretty close. On the surface the kata are usually pretty similar, but beyond that there is a huge range of possibilities.


Another diffenece between TKD and 'Karate' (or at least some schools of Karate) is the application of throws, sweeps and locks.

Thanx

Like this one, some karate schools do, some don't.

Most TKD schools don't and most of the ones that do, do it as Hapkido.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Mike Flanagan
Hi Andrew

Agreed, although I teach people to use a much more forward facing stance with the hands open. Sideways is something for sparring rather than self-defence in my view.


Wait, hold on a sec...

Depends on the type of sparring you're doing. Allow takedowns and leg kicks and everyone will square of a little more (or spend a lot of time on there back with sore legs)



I'm playing with Sanchin (and Tensho) myself. Yeh, I know. What's a nice Shorin guy like me doing playing with Naha kata? But I do find inner-circular stances are of great value. And what better kata to teach their use. I also find it useful for working on breathing, but I do prefer a softer open hand way of working it, rather than the Japanese Goju way. I'm a complete amateur with these kata though.

Mike

Sanchin (and tensho) are excellent training kata. Breathing, balance, maintaining a centerline, structure, etc. are the entire focus.

I have a bit of an unorthodox view on this sort of thing. I believe the primary lesson in kata is structure/posture and movement, applications are secondary and not really the point.

So Sanchin and tensho (Naihanchi too), which focus almost entirely on these concepts, are perhaps the "essence" of what a fundamental kata should be.

[Mike Flanagan]

Hi Andrew

Originally posted by Andrew Green


Sanchin (and tensho) are excellent training kata. Breathing, balance, maintaining a centerline, structure, etc. are the entire focus.

I have a bit of an unorthodox view on this sort of thing. I believe the primary lesson in kata is structure/posture and movement, applications are secondary and not really the point.

So Sanchin and tensho (Naihanchi too), which focus almost entirely on these concepts, are perhaps the "essence" of what a fundamental kata should be.

I would give them more like equal weight myself. Naihanchi is certainly excellent as a training tool. But I also value it as a tremendouns source of applications too - almost a self-defence system in itself.

Mike

[Andrew Green]

Thats where I differ, Naihanchi is an excellent training kata. It teaches fundamental structure and movement.

The structure and movement is trained in a way which benefits combatitive ability. But the kata is not a direct source for applications. Thats not saying you can't create applications directly from the kata, I do. But thats not the point of them.

The point is the structure and movement, not the direct applications of the kata sequence...

Thats probably not to clear though. To explain it fully takes a little more time and I'll put it into writing one of these days...

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by Andrew Green
Thats where I differ, Naihanchi is an excellent training kata. It teaches fundamental structure and movement.

The structure and movement is trained in a way which benefits combatitive ability. But the kata is not a direct source for applications. Thats not saying you can't create applications directly from the kata, I do. But thats not the point of them.

The point is the structure and movement, not the direct applications of the kata sequence...

Thats probably not to clear though. To explain it fully takes a little more time and I'll put it into writing one of these days...

That's OK, I think I see where you're coming from. And I don't really think we're that far apart on this. Just to be clear, I don't use 'fixed' or 'set' applications for kata, ie. I don't say to students "this is THE application" for this move". Rather I try to demonstrate principles via applications, saying "here is AN application".

I do though, have some set applications that I use to teach these principles. I also think its useful to be able to do some things by rote, without thinking about it. I realise both approaches can yield results here - so I try to use both.

Mike