Iron Shirt warning

[soggycat]

Iron Shirt , more accurately Iron Cloth Shirt (Teet Poh Sam) Kung Fu, is a specialised area of Internal Martial Art.
Basically one trains to develop Chi to " insulate" the body from severe external blows, and to speed up the healing of any residual injuries.
There are 2 known teachers in Sydney and they charge something like $60 -75 ph
www.yangmian.com ( Master Yang)
and
http://www.invisiblemaster.com/ ( Sifu Marko Vesse)

Marko was Yang's senior student until they parted on bad terms , and Marko set up his own school.
Yang claims Marko did not complete training, and is therefore limited in skill.
Who knows, I'm not taking sides.
I'm told Yang forbid his students from communicating / fratenising with other students
Go figure.
There are some really fascinating video clips on both websites that show " feats" of strength.
Like crushing rocks by pounding with bare nands, absorbing baseball bat / sledghammer blows , and having a truck roll over one's body.


Does Iron Shirt work .
YES !
What's wrong with it ?
It shortens your life, because everytime one " turns on the power" to abosorb the blows or perform a " stunt", one is draining one's Chi at a phenomenal rate.
And remember Chi is " lifeforce"
In other words , use too much of it, and you have less of it to live on.
Even daily meditation / Chikung may not be able to "recharge" you up sufficiently.

This information can be found on the internet, and is confirmed by INTERNAL Martial Artists trained in Traditional Chinese Medicine.
(External Arts / Shaolin master will disagree, but then they also cant understand why they have delibetating illness when they reach 50)
My own Taoist master, who has Iron Shirt ability , confirms this.
In other words, if you should train in Iron Shirt, use it sparingly, might like to keep that in mind when you're showing off as a party trick.

I know many people will have their own views, and dissect and interpret this purely from a "hands off" academic viewpoint. But remember, this is your life you are experimenting with, not just a new Kung Fu style to try out/

[soggycat]

Originally posted by hwardo
What about fire method vs. water method? Soggycat-- it sounds like you advocate a water method of qigong. I have read a couple of books by B.K. Frantzis, and he seems to share the same view of inherent dangers in fire methods



Hwardo,
sorry for the delay in responding.
Yes you are right, BK Frantzis does mention about the dangers of Improper Qigong. He has also made some similar comment about Yoga ( he studied Yoga in India for a while, and don't forget , BK= Bruce Kumar, Kumar is an INDIAN name , so he prob has Indian heritage .) As to wether it is Fire or Water meditation, I am not sure, so I won't comment on something I dont have clear knowledge about.

But all I know is that all 3 of my Taoist Martial Arts/ TCM and Qigong trained teachers have warned me about Improper Qigong. From 1 main Taoist teacher, the Qigong I adopted is a bit diff, it is not stationery, it is a moving meditation and involves relaxing both mind and body, emptying one's mind and most importantly exerting as little force as possible to get the movement ( in accordance with Wu Wei principles).There's no name for this style, it's neither Fire or Water .


I'm not saying it's better than other styles, but from the results of those that came before me, I'm impressed. I'm not about to spill the beans and make this teacher public knowledge, because once a upon a time I did that and was ridiculed. My teacher then adviced me that it is not for everyone. No everyone sees the light and will condemn that which they dont understand. I'd be made to look like a fool for trying to help others. It is my good fortune that I stumbled onto him. Now I understand why the Taoist Arts were/are shrouded in secrecy because if it fell in the wrong hands it could be bad for the community or the messenger could be ridiculed. Call em selffish, but so I continue the tradition. So far I have met only one person I felt was receptive enuff for me to bring along to my master and he has never looked back since. So the lesson to learn is " Keep one's ears open , mouth shut and one might learn more and have more seredipitious events happen "
ie. Dont be too quick to dismiss somene's view , it might be you are the one with the incorrect view.

To answer NZRIC's question, basically mental problems crop up when :
1. The Qi rises to the head too fast
and / or
2.The Qi accumulates in the head ( stagnates actually) and is accidentally not allowed to circulate ( Microcosmic and Macrocosmic orbits)

There's more to it but you need to research it yourself and get information from RECOGNISED masters.
May I recommend you get intouch with TCM teachers who also know Qigong as a specialisation AND who come from China or if they non Chinese, have spent at least several years in China studying and observing first hand at what goes on or what goes wrong.

BK Frantzis is American and spent a total of 20+years in China and I recognise him as an AUTHORITY on Qigong, IMA and TCM equal to a Chinese born one.
I'd be very vary of those people who regard themselves as TCM/ Qigong / IMA experts from reading books written by Westerners who've NEVER studied in China or perhaps spent a few months stydying in China or learn from videos.
It's always best to get it closest to the source.
Like I said before if you want learn proper English , does one do so in China or England ?
Likewise for Qigong.

[palecricket1]

wait does that apply to other things involving chi? do they shorten your life as well? What about jing, ki, qi, etc.?

Wait a sec... that doesn't make any sense. Chi is the latent metabolic energy from the phosphorylation of cellular molecules by ATP, the enery being assimilated into the body's own energy field. it is also aquired via the lungs when you breathe. Your body's energy supply is constantly being replenished. Your lifetime, as far as a natural death goes, is dependant more upon the length of your telomeres.

[soggycat]

Palecricket,
Sorry , the previous message was posted in the wrong thread, it was in repsonse to someone else.

In response to your question, the way Qi (aka Chi, Ki in Japanese , Prana in Yoga) is defined from your quote,
is a very narrow way of trying to portray it in western Bio-Chemical terms.

You¡¦d find it easier to understand, if for a moment you can you cast aside one¡¦s Western Science hat/ glasses, put on your Eastern Hat and glasses and start from a clean slate.


Nothing wrong with western definition of Chi, but it seems to miss out many aspects.
Qi is not just metabolic energy manufactured by cellular mitrochondria and transported by ATP.
That is only one form of Chi.

It is a Metaphysical term and Qi is manifest in several forms, some of which are :
Breath, Energy, Vapour, Electricity, Radiation and Matter.
Chi is in the body , in the air and in space ( Cosmic Qi) and in the food you eat.
Chi is absorbed into the body thru :
1. Food
2. Silent Meditation
3. Sexual Mediatation, where Qi is drawn from the other partner ( yeah, got you interested eh ?)
4. Laying of hands ¡Kin a healing session.


In Silent Taoist Meditatation, the goal is to relax and open up the body to absorb Cosmic Chi.
Tense muscles do not allow cosmic chi to permeate one¡¦s body.
This is why one is asked to Relax and ¡§ Empty the Mind¡¨ ¡Kit draws cosmic Qi into your system.
To use a Western Scientic analogy, this make absolute sense,
an electric current will flow from a point of higher potential ( voltage) to one of ZERO or lower potential (voltage)

Lightining stikes you because in relative terms, when you stand on the ground , you have the same voltage as ground ( Zero volts) whereas, the Clouds are charge up to several hundred thousand volts. This ¡§ difference¡¨ causes the electrons to leap across from the clouds topwards you..

So the same with Qi.
If you empty your mind( like Zero potential) during meditation, you are attracting Cosmic Chi towards you.

There¡¦s also Yin Qi and Yang Qi
Jing is Semen Esence
Qi/ Chi is Energy
Shen is Spiritual Intelligence.
Taoist meditation strives to conserve Jing ( thus the recommended abstinence from ejaculation).
The also teach men to ¡§orgasm without loss of seminal fluid, ie. without ejaculation¡¨ ¡K¡Ksomething which I¡¦m just starting to learn and practise .
This has and added advantage¡K..multiple orgasms are then possible in men , just as in women.
( Now I really got you interested yeah ?)

ļ

Taoist aim to convert Jing in the 3rd Dantien ( 3 inches below and 3 inches behind Navel) by ¡§heating¡¨ it in the Cauldron ( 3rd Dantien) during meditation , so as to convert it into Qi ( vapour from) where it rises UP to the 2nd and 1st Dantien (Solar Plexus and between eyebrows respectively).
In the ¡§ DOWN cycle¡¨ it must come down the meridians along the front of the body, reenter the 3rd Dantien and the process repeated in cyclic fashion.
This is the Cyclic REFINEMENT process as described in the Tao Te Ching.

It is also described as part of the ¡§ Microcosmic Circulation¡¨ that is so important, to avoid problems of Qi stagnation.
BTW, the 3 Dantiens are collectively known as the Triple Burners.
Taoists believe a man¡¦s CUM has lots of Chi in raw form ( Jing).
Excessive sex with frequent ejaculations means you are losing Qi enery (coach was right ! ) and is therefore weakening
¡K.why do you think you fall asleep right after, the body releases a ¡§sleepy¡¨ neurotransmitter urging you to rest because you have just lost energy.

Off course you can replenish it with food/ meditation, but that¡¦s like trying to fill a tank with leaks in it.
Yes, in aswer to your question, losing semen does shorten one¡¦s life¡K.according to Taoists.
(This hasn¡¦t been proven/ disproven in western science yet but I¡¦m accepting this for now !)
No, not the sex or orgasm part, just the ejaculation part.
This is clearly stated in ALL Taoist texts, after all Taoist did aim to achieve Immortality.
This makes sense when one thinks of Chi as Life Energy needed to create life in the fertilisation process.
When you ejaculate in casual sex, that Life Energy is just going into your Durex or Kleenex !

Hope this helps.
Please remember, I¡¦m not an expert, I share with you only what my 3 teachers have taught me.
It¡¦s best you get first hand advice from a Taoist teacher, but if you live in a place where this isn¡¦t possible, may I recommend books by Mantak Chia and a few other ones by enlightened western writers/ translators ( Thomas Cleary)¡K.if you find reading the original text , the Tao Te Ching too deep and methaphorical.



* I¡¦m not a TCM expert, but I do have one degree in Radiation Physics and this is where my knowledge of Lightning, Voltage Current comes from.


Wrt your question about " Genetic telomeres" determining the length of one's life....again that's western science.
I'm also aware of the " Free Radical damage" tbeory of aging as well. I like to be able to reconcile Western science with Taoist science , hopefully in the future....after all I am a western trained scientist, but for now I will keep an Open mind and conditionally accept ideas theories and not be too quick to dismiss things I dont understand ( yet)

Hey, guess what, in researching this longevity matter, I stumbled on a very interesting point. Some trees are several thousands year old !
I realise they are of diff Genetic structure and have diff chrosome count, but they have cells like us humans. Is there something we can learn from these trees ? Can we adapt our lifstyle to be more like a tree ?
Like being Vegetarian ?
Have birds sit on your Woody bits ?
Getting Woody and not ejaculating ?
:p
But seriously, if Some trees can achieve near Immortality, maybe the Taoist are on to something.
Whaddya think ?

[soggycat]

Hello palecricket1,
Hey I just read your profile and visited your website.
Really kewl stuff !
I think we have like minds and I'm really into the kind of stuff you listed.
I have some information on " Empty Force" stuff, and would like to discusss with you and send info etc.....but prefer not to do it in open forum becuz some MAP denizens are too clever for me.

So how can I email you privately or what ?
From the website , you seem very well versed with the Qi subject, I couldn't tell from your initial questions.
I guess I was telling you stuff you'd already know
:-)
you are so modest !

[Azrael]

Soggycat: I am actually a student of Master Yang’s, and feel I should clear up some misconceptions raised in your post about the Yang Mian System.

Marko was Yang's senior student until they parted on bad terms, and Marko set up his own school.

Yang claims Marko did not complete training, and is therefore limited in skill.

Yes, it is true that Marko was once a student of Master Yang’s, and that they Marko was asked to leave the school. There were a number of reasons behind this, but the main reason was that Marko took it upon himself to teach things that he himself had not been permitted to teach, and it was Master Yang’s feeling that Marko might unintentionally injure a student as he was not versed in the correct principles behind such training methods & techniques.

Training within the Yang Mian System is an ongoing process, and there are certain stages of skill and attainment that one must go through in order to progress. The main reason these stages are in place is to insure quality, and most importantly the safety of the people participating. Marko did achieve a certain degree of attainment under Master Yang, and was at a stage where he was beginning to learn some more advanced methods & techniques. At this stage, he was also given permission to assist Master Yang instruct beginners in the basics. Unfortunately he was teaching his own variations, which raised justified safety concerns, and lead to his dismissal. Even more unfortunate is the fact that he has gone on to open his own school, and appears to be teaching a rudimentary form of Yang Mian, which really does raise some serious concerns.

But anyway, so far I’ve addressed nothing but old politics which have nothing to do with the nature of the system itself.

I'm told Yang forbid his students from communicating / fratenising with other students

Not sure who your source for such information is soggy, but I can assure you this is not the case. I myself have taken friends I have made from other systems to visit my school on many occasions, and Master Yang has always welcomed them unconditionally. He is also well aware that I often visit their schools in return, and participate in mixed meets as often as I can.

On the topic of 'Iron Shirt', or 'Steel Body' in our system, although I am really not the best person to ask, as I have only completed a very basic stage of this area, I will try to explain a little. Most iron body work to my knowledge is based on various methods of using ones chi to assist in protecting ones self from damage or injury from external force.

(External Arts / Shaolin master will disagree, but then they also cant understand why they have deliberating illness when they reach 50)

That’s probably because they bash their heads with various objects, and other obviously dangerous activities like that (which mind you we do not take any part of within the yang mian system). Where did you get the age 50 from? It's not because of that old fighting monk you see in many of the Shaolin documentaries who has alzheimer's it? How many other cases come to mind (not counting the many found in boxing)?

As for the chi depletion one risks training in iron body techniques... that is really beyond my knowledge to debate. It is the first I myself have ever heard of such phenomenon, but I would be interested in reading any case studies or material that supports such a theory.

In any case, there is an article on our website titled 'Steel Body Training', which explains Yang Mian’s Steel Body component. The article can be find at http://www.yangmian.com/steelbody.asp

I should also add that Master Yang has about for years of training and experience, and is well versed in many of the taoist arts (inlcuding taiji, bagua, and xing yi) as he himself studied them as a child whilst growing up in China. Any questions relating to Yang Mian training should probably be directed to him as it is his families system, and he is easily contactable and readily availible to do so.

I know many people will have their own views, and dissect and interpret this purely from a "hands off" academic viewpoint. But remember, this is your life you are experimenting with, not just a new Kung Fu style to try out/

Soggycat: This is very wise advice to be giving, and I applaude you in doing so. Every martial art does have the potential to change ones life for better or worse, and life is precious - especially a healthy one. Do your reasearch, ask questions, don't take anything at face value, experience as much as allowable, and follow your instinct. Most importantly, use common sense, and keep safe. :)

[palecricket1]

soggy cat:
Wait i didn't include breathing in my post? oops silly me! Oh well, the Russian studies on the cavernous structures effect proves that ki is really just energy. When you breath, your lungs take in the energy. Then it comes through metabolism, and during meditation you gain it because you shift into a state of conciousness where you can control your energy better. I'm not taoist, nor am i into yin and yang qi, although i am keeping an open mind on the matter. Overall, my philosophy is as follows: anything in of this universe can be explained scientifically, mathematically, and/or logically. Anyway, I really don't think (but I'm still keeping an open mind) that you can lose "life energy" and not regain it, as even eastern martial artists have told me that you can replenish your supply. From what I can gather, I've found that "life energy" is really just a label for superstrings of a certain vibration rate/energy level that is often found in live organisms. I'm not saying your wrong, It's too early in my studies to say that; I'm just saying that my sources say otherwise. Oh and one more thing: where are all the dan tiens?? So far I've only heard of two of them, the one below the naval and the one in the chest. Where's the other?

[Syd]

There is the upper dan tien which is commonly known as the third eye position. Actually AZ said it...and between eyebrows respectively, you just missed it I think

[Azrael]

I'm actually in the middle of an Intensive Bagua Course underr Grandmaster Ma Chuan Xu Bejing, at the moment, and I asked him for his opinion on this. He did confirm that a certain amount of Chi is lost during Iron Body, but how much (if any), depends on the method used. He did say that it is nothing that cannot be replenished, going on to say that anything that can be lost, can also be found.

[soggycat]

Azrael G'day !
Thanks 4 taking the time for such indepth repsonse.
I really appreciate your explanation of the Master Yang and Marco issue.
It's wise of Master Yang to be careful and minimise injury potential.
I too have met " senior students" who after a while think they are knowledgeable enough to teach ,modify or add things with little understanding of downstream effects. No doubt you will meet more along your journey.

Glad you clarified the mistruth about Yang's students not being allowed to fraternised.

It seems we have similar interests in developing Chi .
How kewl ! Are you enjoying heaps with Grandmaster Ma's training?

Yes am glad he too is of the view "Iron Shirt" does deplete chi.
My teachers also say it can be replenished thru food/ meditation / Chikung....guess it depends on how much is lost per "Iron Shirt" episode eh?

Say daily food and meditation gains you +X units of chi
and an episode of " Iron Shirt" loss is -Y units of chi.

As long as X is greater than Y, you are still inpositive territory and gaining, and moving towards longevity and good health.
But if X is lesser than Y , you suddenly dip in life-shortening territory.
Sometimes Yis so large it can wipe out several days worth
of X Chi.

This was the way my teacher explained it to me.
Strict Taoist IMAs are very cautious about conserving their Chi and will stay away from activities that deplete Chi unnecessarily.
...meaning they will glad consume precious Chi if it is used to save lives or heal a family member....but not to get a purse snatcher.

[soggycat]

Originally posted by palecricket1

Wait i didn't include breathing in my post? oops silly me! Oh well, the Russian studies on the cavernous structures ................
Hello palecricket1

I agree with your description of Chi and what the Russians found. But I think the Taoist are saying it is more than just tangible energy measured in calories and joules. There's a report in a Western book ( UK ) that claims Chinese scientist have also measured the speed of transmission of chi as well. The issue with the way the West views Chi is is that it is described in scientific terms , and therefore limited to the state of scientific progress of the day. Before Einstein proved it, Relativity was unheard of, and much of Star ( Black Holes and Red Dwarfs) activity could not be explained .

The Taoist view is that Chi can change form, cosmic Chi, Air Chi,Blood Chi , Vapour Chi...it depends where the Chi is at that point in time. This is not entirely inconsistent with the way western science views the transformative nature of tangible energy...Kinetic, Potential, Chemical Electromagnetic, Electric and Magnetic and Radioactive.
I am a western trained scientist with a degree in Physics, but I still like to keep an open mind to Taoist discoveries. Whilst trying to reconcile Western and Taosit science, I find it useful to temporarily put aside my western Glasses when reading Taoist text.

The 3 Dantiens:
1.Just below and behind navel
2.Just behind Solar Plexus
3. Between eyebrows

It is good that you keep an open mind and suspend judgement .
:D

[Azrael]

Thanks 4 taking the time for such indepth repsonse.

soggycat: Hey mate. No worries. Glad my best was good enough in this case. :)

Are you enjoying heaps with Grandmaster Ma's training?

Well, it is unfortunately over now (finished up today), but yeah, I really enjoyed it. It was an awesome (and humbling) experience that i will cherish for the rest of my life. I only pray that it will not be the last time I have this opportunity. :)

My teachers also say it can be replenished thru food/ meditation / Chikung....guess it depends on how much is lost per "Iron Shirt" episode eh?

Hahahaha, yeah!

...meaning they will glad consume precious Chi if it is used to save lives or heal a family member....but not to get a purse snatcher.

Actually, I have a story you might find interesting.

Grandmaster Ma was telling us about a 91yr old I-Chuan (spelling?) Master in China that gave up his family and moved to the mountains about 40 years ago. According to Ma, he does 14 hours a day of I-Chuan mediation in order to cultiavte as much internal energy as possible. Apparently he is capable of some amazing things, but thats another topic.

Anyway, Ma Shifu was telling us that this guy actually refused to come down from the mountains to heal his grand-daughter who was very ill. His reason for this was that he would have to waste his internal energy to do so. He did end up coming down, but it was only when his grand-daughter was literally on the brink of death. Not sure how true that story is, but I do not see any reason for Ma to have made it up. Pretty exctreme huh?!

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Azrael
Anyway, Ma Shifu was telling us that this guy actually refused to come down from the mountains to heal his grand-daughter who was very ill. His reason for this was that he would have to waste his internal energy to do so. He did end up coming down, but it was only when his grand-daughter was literally on the brink of death. Not sure how true that story is, but I do not see any reason for Ma to have made it up. Pretty exctreme huh?!

Yes , that is what a Daoist would do.
To them conserving personal Chi is paramount, any kindness shown to others is measured. Maybe he didnt like his daughter.
I haven't heard of this story personally, but this Ichuan ( YiChuan) guy sounds a lot like Wang Xiang Zhai founder ( YiChuan is aka DaChengChuan - modified HsingI)
I have the book written by his son,Wang Xuan Jie.

Nzric,
if u read this , so you realise now that Master Bing's is not the only "uncaring b*******" Daoist ?
Like I said before, Master Bing avoids publicity of all sorts FOR THE SAME REASON !
But he is kind enuff to teach the 20+ of us genuine and receptive students at some cost to hispersonal Chi.
We are so honored.

[nzric]

Yawn

Now... about that iron shirt training

[nzric]

I agree with many of the posts here. The reason many of us chose IMA is because we recognise that "conditioning" does much more long term damage than any short-term gain in power/dulled senses.

Whatever your view on chi - the fundamental thing is that concentration and meditation (whether by qigong or other ways) works. It focuses your mind, makes you much more conscious of your bodily functions, and enables you to concentrate your blood/energy/focus/mind/coordination on certain parts of your body to speed healing and develop power.

Nothing you do will make you live longer, whether it's chi cultivation, abstinence or eating healthy. It will just make you die more slowly. Our body is a clock that's slowly winding down. In my opinion, iron body work is a waste of energy - why bash your head/chest on things when you don't need to? Do what the real IMA masters do and circulate your own chi/energy internally, make your body a more efficient machine.

SC - we disagree about a lot of the finer details about the concept of chi, but I think we agree on quite a bit.

[pandajelly]

I take it that your unwillingness to respond to the statement below is a tacit admission that you concede that Master Bing's refusal to save your cherished orphans is for a good reason and not UNCOMMON behaviour amongst Daoist ?

Not trying to rub your face in it, just trying to help you understand " selfish" Daoist behaviour.
:)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Azrael
[B]

Actually, I have a story you might find interesting.

Grandmaster Ma was telling us about a 91yr old I-Chuan (spelling?) Master in China that gave up his family and moved to the mountains about 40 years ago. According t

[pandajelly]

I take it that your unwillingness to respond to the statement below is a tacit admission that you concede that Master Bing's refusal to save your cherished orphans is for a good reason and not UNCOMMON behaviour amongst Daoist ?

Not trying to rub your face in it, just trying to help you understand " selfish" Daoist behaviour.
:)

Originally posted by Azrael


Actually, I have a story you might find interesting.

Grandmaster Ma was telling us about a 91yr old YiChuan Master in China that gave up his family and moved to the mountains about 40 years ago. According to Ma, he does 14 hours a day of mediation in order to cultiavte as much Chi as possible. Apparently he is capable of some amazing things, but thats another topic.

Anyway, Ma Shifu was telling ushe actually refused to come down from the mountains to heal his grand-daughter who was very ill. His reason for this was that he would have to waste his energy to do so. He did end up coming down, but it was only when his grand-daughter was literally on the brink of death. Not sure how true that story is, but I do not see any reason for Ma to have made it up. Pretty exctreme huh?! :)

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by nzric
Nothing you do will make you live longer, whether it's chi cultivation, abstinence or eating healthy. It will just make you die more slowly.


If Chi= Hypnosis + Bio-Mechanics, more of it won't extend one's life, just makes one less decrepit towards end days

But if Chi = Life force energy, t it stands to reason the more you have , the longer you live until it runs out.
This is central to all Daoist teaching and TCM.
Please don't take my word for it and ask Grandmaster Ma before he leaves .
Whilst you are there ask him to explain the Jing ( semen) - Chi - Shen refinement cycle .

Just so you know it's not just Master Bing who said it.

Whilst you are there , ask Master Ma also about Empty Force ...I dunno his views but there's a good chance he might dismiss it....and then you can say "I told you so" to me.

Also ask him about Daoist Master Yu Shwen Der ( spelling?) who spent 20 years training in Wudang and is a known figure in the Wudang circle. He's approx 45 yo and has a reddish face and beard.

Ask him if he has heard of his Empty Force abilities.

[wutan]

As we all know there are various ways of developing the internal organ strength which I like to call 'Nei Kung' rather than 'Chi Kung'.
We practice a 24 nei kung internal strength method which is safe and will give the same benefits as all the unsafe practices without the bad side effects.
The thing is that you have to practice the exercises on a regular basis which takes quite a bit of time even at the basic level.
I recal a story of our grandmaster Cheng Tin Hung sending a guy who had been practising a dangerous form of Chi Kung (which resulted in him constantly ejaculating) to a student of Cheng's to correct and reverse an imbalance.The student's occupation was a roadsweeper in Hong Kong.
One never knows what internal skills people posess by looking at their daily occupation.

[nzric]

I heard of that story!

PJ - I didn't answer you because I don't want to insult SC by turning this into another discussion about your teacher and your teacher's psychic powers. This thread is about iron shirt training. Respect the rules of the forum mate.

(btw - I believe in the strength of chinese medicine and the fact that a hermit who practices forms every day for his entire life would have a fairly extensive knowledge of the body and its imbalances. Giving someone first aid by treating them with knowledge of the human body gained over years of practice is not the same as introducing the world to a new energy force.)

[Marko Vesse]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marko was Yang's senior student until they parted on bad terms, and Marko set up his own school.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is true.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yang claims Marko did not complete training, and is therefore limited in skill.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You decide. Trained for 12 years. Chief Instructor for 10.

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marko was asked to leave the school. There were a number of reasons behind this, but the main reason was that Marko took it upon himself to teach things that he himself had not been permitted to teach, and it was Master Yang’s feeling that Marko might unintentionally injure a student as he was not versed in the correct principles behind such training methods & techniques.

Training within the Yang Mian System is an ongoing process, and there are certain stages of skill and attainment that one must go through in order to progress. The main reason these stages are in place is to insure quality, and most importantly the safety of the people participating. Marko did achieve a certain degree of attainment under Master Yang, and was at a stage where he was beginning to learn some more advanced methods & techniques. At this stage, he was also given permission to assist Master Yang instruct beginners in the basics. Unfortunately he was teaching his own variations, which raised justified safety concerns, and lead to his dismissal. Even more unfortunate is the fact that he has gone on to open his own school, and appears to be teaching a rudimentary form of Yang Mian, which really does raise some serious concerns.

But anyway, so far I’ve addressed nothing but old politics which have nothing to do with the nature of the system itself.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is completely not true.

I broke ties with Martin and Yang Mian because I was not happy with the ethics within the school. Hence, evolved www.invisiblemaster.com



Marko Vesse.
Wu Xing Dao Master Instructor

[soggycat]

Originally posted by Marko Vesse
quote:

Marko was Yang's senior student until they parted on bad terms, and Marko set up his own school........

Marko,
I just want to point out that I'm not taking sides, a point I have made in the original posting.

I am merely reporting what I have heard through the grapevine.
So what's this about not being allowed to fraternise with other classmates in Yang's class ?
What were the ethical practices you disagreed with?
It's OK if if dont feel it is appropriate to discuss this in open forum....maybe just a few hints ?
Do you agree that an Iron Shirt Episode saps up lots of Chi ?
And one needs to replenish it afterwards ?


Cheers,
soggy

[nzric]

Hi Marko - welcome to the forum.

While I'm glad you chose to reply to the allegations, to an outsider it still looks like your word against his. Can you elaborate a bit more on what happened, as it looks like there are a few very different stories flying around.

If you've got the time, could you post your views on iron body training (maybe start another thread). It features heavily in your website but many people here have raised concern about its effect on internal health and the long-term effects. How does your system differ from conditioning in the external arts?

[jroe52]

hmmm i don't know if we learned 3 oves from iron shirt or qi'gong but our sifu taught us some breathing excersizes that we did for a few days for like 30minutes ... honestly maybe they were wing chun breathing excersizes lol

anyways.... there are some breathing excersizes such as "gathering the chi" and "storing the chi"... if you look into things such as these maybe you could replenish your chi and feel better?

when i'm stressed out or tired doing these really helps me feel rejuivinated, ask your instructor or look online for something similar.

[mikeyj]

Hi,
don't know if anyone'e still looking at this thread as its been inactive for a bit - its interesting to read your stuff here - sounds like your breathing techniques above jroe52 are chi gung (or qi gong or chi gong - its all the same!). I've been training iron shirt chi gung for about 8 months now and so am still in the beginning stages - it takes about 2 years of continual daily practice to reach the standard of breaking breeze blocks on your head and arms with sledge hammers (if you like that sort of thing!). The training is a combination of exercises - external and internal.My master for iron shirt (master Tan eng Hok) is from Singapore and his descendants are from the Fujian province of China - the art i'm learning is a shaolin art and is probably closely related to Yang Mian's art as I have heard he is a white crane practitioner too (which is a Southern Shaolin style).
Any way enough of the lineage stuff - lots of activities use up chi and demonstrating iron shirt definitely does - as would sparring and breaking bricks and any hard physical activity - but as far as I've been told you can replace your chi with soft chi gung breathing exercises though. The reason daoists would refrain from this kind of thing is because they are saving their chi to prolong life. This is all dependant on your philosophy of life - personally I'm here for a good time not necessarily a long one!
Anyway - good to read your stuff - Mike.

[ZillaBilla]

Hello,

Well I thought I would add a few comments.

There are specific QiGong exercises that replenish and restore the Qi in your TanTiens and eight Qi vessels. In fact anyone who is familiar with the microcosmic orbit circulating exercises, should know (though depending on the strength of the Qi used, also depending on its origins and practitioners ability) that every time a circulation is completed it deposits Qi in to the eight Qi vessels which in turn regulate the Qi in your organs, hence the practice improves organ function and overall health. Furthermore Qi can also be replenished in to the Macrocosmic orbit through specific exercises, once again filling up the body with Qi. Finally according to Yin/Yang principles one must give in order to receive (this principle is inherent in most mainstream religions), hence as soon as you are using your Qi, you are receiving Qi, otherwise you would be getting dead, so to speak. In fact training Iron Shirt, with the methods that I’m familiar with actually packs Qi in to your body. An example of this is external Iron Shirt training, i.e. the practitioner repeatedly hits for example his/her forearm, since hitting is a active action it in turn is of Yang origin, thus since the forearm absorbs the hit it is passive and therefore Yin, and between the two occurs a Qi (energy) exchange, i.e. the forearm becomes more Yang/harder and the hitting implement becomes more Yin/softer. It is the same with internal methods, except they deal with more subtle energies, which I believe are harder to control but more potent in their manifestation. Anyway that’s what I think, may be totally wrong, but who knows, I don’t.

ZB

[gerard]

Zillabilla, I agree 100% with what you're saying. However, let me add here that all roads lead to Rome but some are safer than others. I rather got for the safest method (Yin) which is also in line with classical Taoist philosophy: be yielding, like water. Soft conquers hard, etc. This stuff applied to Qigong makes it safe and simple.

Regards.

[mikeyj]

Thnaks for your reply Zilla Billa - lots of food for thought - I agree most (all?) processes would have an exchange of Chi involved but this is not always an equal exchange - surely we are all getting dead - some quicker than others depending on life style and activities?

[David]

it takes about 2 years of continual daily practice to reach the standard of breaking breeze blocks on your head and arms with sledge hammers (if you like that sort of thing!).
It requires no training whatsoever to achieve this. Chow Gar sifu Paul Whitrod has broken/will break concrete on the head of anybody who thinks otherwise. He is a great realist.

Rgds,
David

[ZillaBilla]

I’m sure we are all getting dead, in fact had we not been getting dead I would think we would never be alive, Yin/death & Yang/life feed off each other, maybe, I guess the only way to answer that is to see a great person, or become a great person, I guess we all find out at some point. Wise words Gerard, I would think there is no point doing anything that would damage self in order to attain a protective ability, its kind of contradictory, hence there is no point in forcing it, i.e. be yielding like water, but not too yielding, perfection is in balance, strength and flexibility. This whole IMA business, if we can call it that, is a very fine line to tread, too soft and not enough work done, too hard and damage is done, however I find solace in reading Liu I-Ming’s (Taoist Adept) interpretation of the “I Ching”, translated by Thomas Cleary, Shambhala books, entitled “The Taoist I Ching”, available from Amazon. It is a very specific guide to internal alchemy , I highly recommend it and would dare to call it a bible on such matters, however I would not recommend it to someone who does not know anything and/or is not interested in internal alchemy, as it would read like a bunch of gibberish, and would also recommend anyone reading this book to brush up on Taoist metaphors and symbolism, though I think a breakdown is included somewhere in the book.

[mikeyj]

David, I have read my bit above and now totally agree with you - it takes no training at all to smash things on your head :-)

[ZillaBilla]

Its one thing having breeze blocks smashed on your head under controlled circumstances in a controlled environment, but if you’re training specifically to do that, might as well join the circus. However its something quite different when you get hit in the head by someone and the difference between getting beaten to a pulp and being able to defend one self is a matter of your brain not rattling against your skull, thus giving you a concussion, which feels particularly horrible the next morning, especially coupled with a monster hangover. In any case, I have had the pleasure of hitting someone in the head, who had a 'golden bell cover' or 'iron head', as a result of which I bruised my knuckles, though I was hitting him in the forehead and I’m sure if you do that to anyone, you will find their forehead quite durable, as it is the thickest part of the skull. The real test would be if someone dropped a plant pot on your head from a few floors up and as a result you either ended up with a fractured skull, which would indicate your training did not work or alternatively you felt as if a someone dropped a feather pillow on your head, which would indicate your training worked, or so I would think. In any case such an ability would be quite useful for defense purpose, especially if you regularly walk past a high rise building, occupied by clumsy gardeners who do their gardening on their balconies and outside their windows as to avoid getting soil and plant debris on their Persian carpets. But, it is always better to be safe than to be sorry or dead. Best to consult an expert.

[gerard]

...however I find solace in reading Liu I-Ming’s (Taoist Adept) interpretation of the “I Ching”, translated by Thomas Cleary, Shambhala books, entitled “The Taoist I Ching”, available from Amazon. It is a very specific guide to internal alchemy , I highly recommend it and would dare to call it a bible on such matters, however I would not recommend it to someone who does not know anything and/or is not interested in internal alchemy, as it would read like a bunch of gibberish, and would also recommend anyone reading this book to brush up on Taoist metaphors and symbolism, though I think a breakdown is included somewhere in the book.


Taoists were smart enough to reveal only part their knowledge (like good Shamans) behind metaphors and symbols in order to attract only true adepts. It's a bit like sorcery you won't believe until you experience it yourself.


True reality is out there but Karma will determine who are ready and who are not to experience it. As Don Juan said to Castaneda:


Nothing in the world is a gift. Whatever there is to learn has to be learned the hard way. Turn my concepts into a viable way of life by a process of repetition. Everything new in our lives, such as the sorcerers' concepts I am teaching you, must be repeated to us to the point of exhaustion before we open ourselves to it.

[ZillaBilla]

Hey Gerard,

Recently you posted an interview with B.K. Frantzis, re: An Informal Discussion on Taoist Meditation, Part 2. Further to this interview, I looked up the first part of this series on the same website (http://www.energyarts.com/hires/library/media/qisummer94.html), once again a very deep and insightful discussion with Mr. Frantzis, in the interview he mentions “The Taoist Canon consisting of close to 1,600 books that include the subject of Taoist meditation has not been translated into English. The rest of the world has not seen it yet. This limits access to the complete view of the whole picture.”, thus I will have to reiterate your point “Taoists were smart enough to reveal only part their knowledge (like good Shamans) behind metaphors and symbols in order to attract only true adepts. It's a bit like sorcery you won't believe until you experience it yourself.” , and further add that the spoken word is a product of the thinking mind (Temporal) which can only abstractedly point towards the Tao and the use of the ‘mind of Tao’ (Primordial), thus practice/experience is of paramount importance compared to mere pondering on philosophy and theory, in fact in the ‘I Ching’ is a line which states something like “The fool admires the Tao, the true man practices it”, but in any case with the amount of so called ‘watering down’ and subjective interpretation of true knowledge that exists everywhere, as much as in great and lowly schools and places like this website, perhaps as a result of duality of all phenomenon which exists as much outside the world as it does in the mind. Never the less, I think it would be of benefit to study “The Taoist Canon” mentioned earlier, as perhaps it had been written by people who have more than most, developed themselves to judge objectively, thus leaving their words to be understood in their true essence by objective minds. Since the interview mentioned a forehand, ten years have past, so hopefully some of these writings have now been translated, if anyone knows of such translations, it would be to the benefit of many IMA’ists to share such knowledge or its possible whereabouts. Alternatively one could always learn some Chinese dialect and search out such writings, though life is difficult enough as is. Once again the lessons of the ‘Tao’ i.e. single mindedness to the task, perseverance, relaxation and sincerity, demonstrates the characteristics needed to achieve one’s task. Anyway I think this is enough rambling for one post, enjoy.

ZB

[bobW]

This is not 'iron shirt' but 'steel body',one of many systems within Master Yang & Master Marko's system.When I last spoke with Marko, one of the decendants of this system was 96 yrs-old and able to do moving Qigong exercises with amazing ability- by anyones standards.
Master Marko trained under Master Yang for 11 years and was taught a great majority of the system. On a trip to china he met with the Grand Master.

[Hannibal]

http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/28433/original/ThreadNecromancer.png

I pronounce thee.....annoying!

[47MartialMan]

http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/28433/original/ThreadNecromancer.png

I pronounce thee.....annoying!





Good link;
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85802







This is truly Iron Shirt;

http://www.targetintellect.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/iron-shirt-main1-300x206.jpg

[Old_kyokushin]

http://www.targetintellect.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/iron-shirt-main1-300x206.jpg


Osu,


Sorry to say, this is fake...
Real guys iron their shirts in underpants... when they already wear a perfectly good shirt, none would iron another one... :D:D

Seriously, do the guys that posted on page one really believe what they posted???


Osu!

[Old_kyokushin]

http://www.targetintellect.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/iron-shirt-main1-300x206.jpg


Osu,


Sorry to say, this is fake...
Real guys iron their shirts in underpants... when they already wear a perfectly good shirt, none would iron another one... :D:D

Seriously, do the guys that posted on page one really believe what they posted???


Osu!

[47MartialMan]

Seriously, do the guys that posted on page one really believe what they posted???


Osu!

Have you browsed the link?


http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85802

[Old_kyokushin]

Osu,


HA! - LOL
There is a cornucopia of jocularity in this thread.
:D:D


OSu!

[bobW]

This is the exact reason I avoid forums.Weirdos like you.I prounounce thee annoying- Right. Good-bye, good luck <removed>.You know nothing.I have barred this site in my browser and e-mails as well!!! Bye

[simon s]

This is the exact reason I avoid forums.Weirdos like you.I prounounce thee annoying- Right. Good-bye, good luck <removed>.You know nothing.I have barred this site in my browser and e-mails as well!!! Bye

You have two posts and say that you avoid forums. Why did you join?

You also said goodbye and remain online. What do you want, a plea to stay.

Shut the door on the way out please. :cool:

[47MartialMan]

You have two posts and say that you avoid forums. Why did you join?

You also said goodbye and remain online. What do you want, a plea to stay.

Shut the door on the way out please. :cool:

I say the door should remain open to air out the stench :)

[Zaad]

what is this? and why did palecricket reference science!
science is fact! chi is still hard to prove because of all the philosophy and tradition behind it.

[JRRodriguezIV]

Iron Shirt , more accurately Iron Cloth Shirt (Teet Poh Sam) Kung Fu, is a specialised area of Internal Martial Art.
Basically one trains to develop Chi to " insulate" the body from severe external blows, and to speed up the healing of any residual injuries.
There are 2 known teachers in Sydney and they charge something like $60 -75 ph
www.yangmian.com ( Master Yang)
and
http://www.invisiblemaster.com/ ( Sifu Marko Vesse)

It shortens your life, because everytime one " turns on the power" to abosorb the blows or perform a " stunt", one is draining one's Chi at a phenomenal rate.
And remember Chi is " lifeforce"
In other words , use too much of it, and you have less of it to live on.
Even daily meditation / Chikung may not be able to "recharge" you up sufficiently.

/

I teach Iron Shirt, or Golden Bell as the Taoist's call it, and all my students learn it too.

Iron Shirt is not that difficult to learn, and if used for health purposes you can live a healthy life. People actually live longer and stronger when practicing Iron Shirt daily.

If you allow yourself to get hit often, then probably your life can shorten from using up more than what you can afford to spend, that is exactly why I don't allow my students to 'show off' our Iron Shirt skills.

It is a necessary skill for martial artists, because Iron Shirt can protect your life from lethal damage. If you do not have Iron Shirt you could die faster in a fight, compared with if you have the skill.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, but I believe that it is better to have it and not need it, than not have it when you need it. 8-)