Rhythm & Pace!

[Andy Murray]

What is your understanding of the use of rhythm and or pace in sparring and in combat?

[Freeform]

Rhythm: Don't, unless your trying to sucker in your opponent with a sudden change of rhythm that catches them off guard. I suppose there is also a certain rhythm to some combinations used.

Pace: More of a sparring concept than a combat one I'd say, measuring your output throughout the bout so that your opponent doesn't come back in the third minute when your knackered and leave you on your ass.

Thanx

[waya]

I see both really as sparring/competition points. I can't say I move with any rythm when I am in a fight, and pace all depends on how likely I am to get beaten badly if it's extended.

In sparring, rythm basically equals control, and how you time strikes to counter your opponent's guard. Pace is one of the more important points because of your own stamina levels, if you move to fast and hard early, your opponent can hang back until you are tired and take you fairly easily.

Rob

[Andy Murray]

Just to extend an idea;
ever notice when sparring, that if you slow down your movements, your opponent does too?
Ever notice that when you speed up, the distance between you increases, and their movement speeds up also?
Isn't this important in taking control of a situation.........by dictating your opponents movement pattern?

Just a thought.

[NielStewart]

I think Mr Vince may have something to say reagarding dictating your oponents movements - My understanding is that is one of the key concepts of Kenpo.

Rhythm: everything runs to a rhythm - working out your oponents is a good way to anticipate their next move, when sparing try standing completly still, watching your oponent and concentrating on their rhythm, then try to move only before you block/strike instead of constantly moving. (if you get hit dont sue me its only an idea - I used it last week and it worked quite well to help delelop timing, plus its great to see the look of confusion on your oponents face when you dont do what they expect!)

Pace: tends to be much slower when sparring - less of a sense of urgency - (are his mates about - whose behind me - has he got a weapon, what happens if...?)

[Chazz]

I agree with everyone, Both are rather a sparring idea. You never want to use the same rythem in real life. Its too easy to get to know. If in a fight i would not want to pace it at all. I would want it done and over with ASAP.

[waya]

That's the one two rythm & pace Chazz 1: I hit you, 2: you hit the pavement all delivered at your fastest speed :) LOL

I think they are very important to train though, because without them timing is nearly impossible to learn.

Rob

[Chazz]

Waya that too true.


"That's the one two rythm & pace Chazz 1: I hit you, 2: you hit the pavement all delivered at your fastest speed LOL"

That is only if i let you hit me *LOL* just messin with ya

[waya]

hehe I have the power of cheese though. I'll distract you with a nice big burger and the other hand will come out of the bag and nail you with concrete fries :D LOL

[Andy Murray]

What about looking at your opponent. Is there any use in observing their rhythm, pace or movement habits?

I'm talking 'off' the mat here.

[Darzeka]

Rythym is always there. You don't "use" it you merely change it.

Think about your breathing. It is always rythmical. In out. If you get exicted it will usually increase (unless you have been training it). This will dictate how you move when doing anything, particularly fighting.

I think there is some overlap between rythym and patterns here. Now they are similar and useful to utilise but not to the point where you are more thinking about trying to get your opponent do something and convince them you are going to do this rather than looking at what they are doing.

I think trying to maintain an erratic rythym to your fighting style will be very beneficiary to you. If you act upon impulse derived from watching an environment it will appear that you have no plan or structure behind your thoughts which is the aim of it all isn't it?
After a while of using this your impulses will become smarter as you analyse to environment faster and more completely.

Pace. Usually dictates to nature of the fight. Ever tried to stop someone who is just basically running at you throwing the kitchen sink at you (metaphor). Unless you stop the attack then the sheer number of attacks will eventually mean one will get through. Learning to change the pace or use it is rather important.
Learn to break range if you want to slow down the pace, turn the flurry of attacks so you can attack them at the same pace, run in with a flurry of attacks yourself, forcing them to do something or get hit.

I beleive that you use Rythym and pace everywhere.
If you slow down the pace on the street then there is the chance someone will interfere, or you can talk them down. Pushing the pace will result in a quick result to the fight, allowing you run away from their mates.
Playing an unexpected tune with your rythym could also shake up someone, especially if they have no MA training.

[Freeform]

Pace. Usually dictates to nature of the fight. Ever tried to stop someone who is just basically running at you throwing the kitchen sink at you (metaphor). Unless you stop the attack then the sheer number of attacks will eventually mean one will get through. Learning to change the pace or use it is rather important.

Yes, this is where the uninitiated street fighter has a major flaw. If I can absorb the initial few strikes I've got his rhythm and can knock him on his ass. Also by not rising initially to the challenge of outpacing him, he's knackered, I've done next to nothing, THEN I kick it up a gear.

In a scrap the use of rhythm should be for well practiced comb's or for set ups (broken rhythm). Alternatively, no rhythm, pick your shots with care.

Thanx

[Darzeka]

That is still rythym though you are just fitting yours in together with your opponents.

Now with the running barrage in a street fight. Some untutored meat head comes flailing at you and doesn't get anywhere near you, punches himself out so you can flatten him. He chose his rythym and pace badly.
Now the person has training, is supremely fit and has seen that when confronted with an attack such as this people go into entirely defensive mode. The MA just keeps on and on at the person with good, economic attacks that doesn't givve the person any breathing space. Either the person defending needs to break the rythym and go on the attack or get pummeled.

Occaisonally I find that you will get hit trying to make this break but it will be beneficial at the end as you can fight back.

I think rythym is more concerned with the target of the strikes and what strikes they arerathr then the speed of them, the speed is what I'd call the pace.

You should keep your rythym changing there will always be some rythym, otherwise you aren't attacking. I get what you mean when you say no rythym and just attack at random moments but in a fight there will be no randomness. Everything you do will be a result of what is happening, the same for your opponent.
You may not realise what is affecting you or them or even notice that you are being affected but you are.

So roughyl rythym could be your combo's, where they aim, if they are intended to hit etc.

Most people will subconciously fall into a rythym and pattern and pace and not change it. This is where they will begin to get predictable. You don't want this to happen so just attack as you feel you want to and can effectively do. Using similar attacks that are vastly different is also cool.

[Freeform]

I get what you mean when you say no rythym and just attack at random moments but in a fight there will be no randomness.


No randomness in a fight, excuse me whilst I roll about on the pavement flailing my arms around (no I'm not laughing!).

Real fights are messy, they are ugly, and whilst I can see the uninitated picking up rhythms, and will agree that a combo is a rhythm, but if you stop, start and stagger you are not creating a rhythm, you are doing something which is vey unrhythmic.

Thanx

[LilBunnyRabbit]

If your techniques are good and you know what you're doing you shouldn't have time to build up a rhythm.

[Chase]

What is your understanding of the use of rhythm and or pace in sparring and in combat?

Hi Andy, I believe in the importance of sensitivity exercises & what they teach you about reading the opponent's direction & force. If you can do that you can change the rythm to anything.
Take Care,
Chase

[Tireces]

Just to extend an idea;
ever notice when sparring, that if you slow down your movements, your opponent does too?
Ever notice that when you speed up, the distance between you increases, and their movement speeds up also?
Isn't this important in taking control of a situation.........by dictating your opponents movement pattern?

Just a thought.

It is. Hence why we love broken rhythm in JKD, because we love taking control of the fight. Say what you will of Bruce, but from what I've read of him, I say his #1 strength was how tricky he could be in a fight. It's also why things like mirror drills are important, so you can keep up with changes in rhythm that your opponent may try.

[Epsilon]

This is a really good thread! I like everybodies questions and answers!

For me in shadow boxing and sparring, I like to be in a good rhythm and pace to let my body flow and think of new manuvers, patterns, combinations and speed. While in competition or in actual fighting, I don't. It's good to be unpredictable, because in those kind of situations you want to move in and out as fast as you can or else you become predictable and you're wasting time. You never want your opponent to think even for a second. In other words just react to the situation at hand and let everything flow.

[Chase]

This is a really good thread! I like everybodies questions and answers!

For me in shadow boxing and sparring, I like to be in a good rhythm and pace to let my body flow and think of new manuvers, patterns, combinations and speed. While in competition or in actual fighting, I don't. It's good to be unpredictable, because in those kind of situations you want to move in and out as fast as you can or else you become predictable and you're wasting time. You never want your opponent to think even for a second. In other words just react to the situation at hand and let everything flow.


Hi, Hey Andy, how much emphasis do you put on the Tan Sao/Bong Sao exercise? I rely on it very much to help me flow with whatever comes my way. I agree with you wholeheartedy Epsilon, a fight is no time to think.

[Tireces]

Here's something I'd like to know if anyone's tried. Has anyone ever "played" the heavy bag, pads, or whatever your favorite inanimate punching object may be, as a percussion instrument? I find myself doing that from time to time, remembering the rhythm to a tune and "playing" it with punches. I might even try to get some sheet music and devise a set of rules for certain notes being a certain type of attack. I wonder how well that'd work. And by the way, great thread, definitely the kind of thing I'd like to see some more of around here.

[Chase]

Here's something I'd like to know if anyone's tried. Has anyone ever "played" the heavy bag, pads, or whatever your favorite inanimate punching object may be, as a percussion instrument? I find myself doing that from time to time, remembering the rhythm to a tune and "playing" it with punches. I might even try to get some sheet music and devise a set of rules for certain notes being a certain type of attack. I wonder how well that'd work.


Hi Tireces, Funny you should mention that, because I've been thinking a lot lately about the fun I used to have following the beat of a costom wooden man I had with thick dowels at at three diferent levels & many different angles. I'd be practicing the flow of Siniwalli or Sumbradda or Seradda, & would soon drift into the sounds of certain dowels. It was great fun! ;)

[Epsilon]

Originally Posted by Tireces
Here's something I'd like to know if anyone's tried. Has anyone ever "played" the heavy bag, pads, or whatever your favorite inanimate punching object may be, as a percussion instrument? I find myself doing that from time to time, remembering the rhythm to a tune and "playing" it with punches. I might even try to get some sheet music and devise a set of rules for certain notes being a certain type of attack. I wonder how well that'd work.

Yup! The main song that always come up in my mind is the famous party song and also used in most weddings is the "Chicken Dance". :D
Trust me! It really puts you in a good rhythm and pace.