Sparring! (the pro's & cons)

[Andy Murray]

The title says it all........what do you think?

[waya]

In training for defense, sparring can help develope a sense of timing and distance, and some level of control. But it also makes you develope a habit of light hits, slower reactions, and lacks realism in confrontations. I think it's good in moderation, but it's something I would change up alot and not do constantly for fear I'd "love tap" someone if I was attacked.

Rob

[NielStewart]

I have heard a lot of people say that sparring is the only way to really test your martial art in a combat situation. (I will take sparring to mean semi/light contact sparring as in our club)

I disagree.

My 'reactions' are to break, snap, rip, tear and generally put someone down in the quickest way possible, all of the moves I favour (or at least most of them) are illegal in any kind of sparring.

Also with points sparring - the points sparring I have seen means when you score, you stop - reset positions and start again. An unrealistic situation I think you will agree. some hits count that would never actually injure someone after which you get a breather, and start again.

Pros for sparring do exist - prolonged sparring must be good for cardio fitness, it gives and oportunity to see how your opponent actually moves, covers ground etc and continueous sparring is perhaps more realistic in terms of being able to absorb a hit to counter with multiple strikes.

I guess therefore that my opinion is that sparring is good for fitness and to help develop blocks/defensive techniques but should not be relied upon for a way of deleloping effecctive offensive moves, I believe it should be a part of a balanced martial arts training programme but the ultimate goal shouldnt be to be good at sparring.

[Andy Murray]

So do you guys think you can train a system which doesn't incorporate sparring, and be able to switch it all on when you actually need to?

Pressure testing has been mentioned elsewhere.

If not sparring, then what are the best methods?

[waya]

I think it is possible, random attacks (not sparring, but near full contact actual attacks) are the best way I have used

[Jim]

Yeah - Like Rob (Waya) said.

I dislike sparring as much as I dislike competitions and for the same reasons.

The general public layman sees all of this flashy stuff and things that it is the REAL DEAL when in fact it only distracts from the real stuff.

[NielStewart]

quote "So do you guys think you can train a system which doesn't incorporate sparring, and be able to switch it all on when you actually need to?"

no...

I think that sparring can be used to increase fitness levels and to help develop blocks/defensive techniques and get used to some of the "mechanics" of fighting, continueous sparring (not stop start), combined with a FULL curriculum.

There is a lot to be said for good old fashioned drills, sticking/pushing hands, pad work etc...

What I don't believe is that sparring alone (semi-contact especially) can be used as a judge to how you would perform in a real fight.

A lot of the issue lies with the practioner - we have people who work forms like their lives dependend on it - emotional content/ visualisation etc...and others who work them like dance steps wothout knowing or visulalising what they are doing...

sparring is the same - if you use sparring as a tool understanding it is an aspect of training to fight then great - if you see light contact sparring as a fight then thats where I think the problem is.

[pgm316]

To me, sparring is anything less than full contact. I think sparring is very important for practising attacks/blocks, timing and footwork. Practising everything really, but as people have said, don’t start believing your fighting. You can sometimes get padded up and feel what its like exchanging some big hits. But its still only practice and just an indication of what could happen in reality.

I think sparring is important but it should still only be part of your training regime, with drills and pad work being just as important. Pad and bag work is an important partner to sparring, it helps stop people getting into the habit of hitting with “love taps”.

[Andrew Green]

Depends on your goals :D

If you want to be an Olympic TKD competitior its pretty neceessary.

If you just want a little work out and a warm fuzzy feeling that you know how to hit things pretty hard, maybe not.

If you really want to learn how to fight, absolutely. But sparring comes in many forms, some help more then others.

[pgm316]

I agree Andy, sparring is a term that covers a huge range of practising styles. At lot depends on what you want to get out of it, ie how realistic you want it to be. Personally I think it should be as realistic as possible without the risk of “serious” injury being to great. A lot of which depends on how good your sparring partners are.

I’ve seen some really bad sparring, people covered in pads, big gloves and gum shields. And still taking it in turn to give each other a little tap that would worry a kitten!

I don’t think you can consider yourself a good martial artist without it though…………

[wayofthedragon]

Sparing important: Very!!! To get good at anything you must practice. YOu must do it. Just as with fighting. TO get good, you have to practice, you have to do it...Sparing is very important in this. learning Forms in the martial arts are good, but sparing takes it to another level. Your actually practicing a real fight senario against another fighter. YOu learn what to do, what not to do, ect. Not only do you learn, but if you don't learn, you will quickly when you are popped a few good times. SO I think every martial artist should spar.

[morphus]

I the MA i train in we don't spar in the way other arts do, so for the experience i trained at another class for a while and got some sparring in. I didn't really find it beneficial so i dropped it.

Having some sparring experience i decided to enter a semi contact competition. I did ok in the early rounds but then i came up against a young man of 16yrs and he wiped the floor with me on points, i didn't score a point against him; i felt very disheartened for about 2weeks, i went over and over what had gone wrong - how could this boy of 16 yrs and half my weight beat me. Then i asked myself what could i have done to beat him in a real fight, my answer was take him off his feet and kick the sh*te out him(strictly illegal in semi-contact).
The boy was very very good at what he did in semi-contact sparring but in an out and out fight i know i would have panned him.
The point of my story is, the loss made my confidence(in my self defence skills) faulter and become negative, but the loss was a false loss; so i had to make this into something positive - i now use this experience as an example in my teaching, pointing out that competition sparring is not always a good thing.

[Chazz]

"I have heard a lot of people say that sparring is the only way to really test your martial art in a combat situation."

I think its just about the only way you can test what you have learned in class and then advance yourself after that for real life situations.

I think that sparring helps in the sence that you can become more reactionary to threats that are coming at you. But if you keep your sparring the same (slap i get the point, 5-0 i win) then all that will help you with is tourneys. But if you use different situations it could help you in the long run.

[pgm316]

I don't like competition sparring, its more like a game of tag than a fight. And morphus, your experience just proves this.

[Andy Murray]

The crux we seem to be getting to guys, and sorry if I'm leading things a little here, is not 'whether' you spar, but 'how' you spar!

Seems like the people who are down on sparring, are those who have only seen one type, or have limited experience of it. It's another tool after all?

[morphus]

Taking on what you've said there andy, i'll have a look around see if i can find someone who spars a better/different way cos i have to admit i have only experienced semi contact sparring and a little full contact - perhaps muay would be the answer?
Any thoughts?

[Ozebob]

Hi Morphus,

I the MA i train in we don't spar in the way other arts do, so for the experience i trained at another class for a while and got some sparring in. I didn't really find it beneficial so i dropped it.

As your experience should have taught you, it is not simply a matter of "training in another class for a while". Sparring in any denomination requires a thorough understanding of the rules and how to develop different strategies to use against different types of fighters.

Having some sparring experience i decided to enter a semi contact competition. I did ok in the early rounds but then i came up against a young man of 16yrs and he wiped the floor with me on points, i didn't score a point against him; i felt very disheartened for about 2weeks, i went over and over what had gone wrong - how could this boy of 16 yrs and half my weight beat me.

Your answer should have been that he most likely had more experience at this type of sparring therefore you were really unprepared and ill-equipped to handle him.

Then i asked myself what could i have done to beat him in a real fight, my answer was take him off his feet and kick the sh*te out him(strictly illegal in semi-contact).

Cimon, that's a terrible assumption, you entered a contest under rules which presumably both of you followed. If the young fellow could beat you there, he had a pretty good chance of beating the ***** out of you as well under different rules. You are making a huge assumption to panel beat your dented ego.

Its no skin off my nose but you really need to examine the facts and look for where your weaknesses lay and how you can ensure that you would not get caught that way again. IMO.

Regards,
Ozebob

[waya]

How I spar..... I do random attacks, usually at medium contact. Of course I know I am being attacked, but everything is legal, vs competitive sparring with rules. Often I'll work with two or 3 opponents also. Mostly anything that happens on the street I try to simulate there.

Rob

[morphus]

You are right, i did have a lack of experience at that type of sparring and i had no business being in the comp' in the first place and deserved to get beat - but i deduced that, that type of sparring had no relivence to what i wanted to learn-street defence/fighting and was a negative move for me to make, i won't be entering again.

One point i was trying to make though was in competition there is always a loser, i have seen and known children/people be defeated or take a hefty blow(even in the dojo) and then because of this give up martial arts altogether, where is the positive for those children/people; some people just aren't built to just get in there and do it, they need nurturing, bringing on a little slower at there own pace and they may never want to compete; some instructors who train winning teams may have little time for someone who doesnt want to compete or doesnt make the grade.

At some point even a champion is going to be defeated, for some this is hard to take, again negative, ex-world champs'(boxing) have run the fast track into oblivion and found that so dibilitating its left there life in ruins; again negative. There are positives but one can't deny there are many, many negatives to glory hunting in sparring/competitions.
This is just my opinion though!

[Andy Murray]

"You are right, i did have a lack of experience at that type of sparring and i had no business being in the comp' in the first place and deserved to get beat - but i deduced that, that type of sparring had no relivence to what i wanted to learn-street defence/fighting and was a negative move for me to make, i won't be entering again."

Hi Morphus,
don't take this the wrong way, but, you have no business entering a competition, then whining afterwards about how it would be different on the street. Your opponent had to adapt to the same rule system you did. Sure, maybe he does more competitions, but maybe he has more street-fights than you too.

"One point i was trying to make though was in competition there is always a loser, i have seen and known children/people be defeated or take a hefty blow(even in the dojo) and then because of this give up martial arts altogether, where is the positive for those children/people; some people just aren't built to just get in there and do it, they need nurturing, bringing on a little slower at there own pace and they may never want to compete; some instructors who train winning teams may have little time for someone who doesnt want to compete or doesnt make the grade."

All depends on the individual, as you have stated yourself before!

"At some point even a champion is going to be defeated, for some this is hard to take, again negative, ex-world champs'(boxing) have run the fast track into oblivion and found that so dibilitating its left there life in ruins; again negative. There are positives but one can't deny there are many, many negatives to glory hunting in sparring/competitions."

Champions only get to be champions by learning how to handle defeat. On the street it's the same. You can't stay indoors all day in case your neighbour knocks out your teeth. The negatives in competition, are to do with detaching yourself from reality, and the very top competitors do not suffer from this. In the same way, glory is not the ultimate aim of any top Olympic athlete.
In my home town, Pat McKay is a name uttered with awe. Pat was really well known 15-20 years ago, as a hard Karate man. He was World champion 3 times as I recall. No-one crossed him in the street though, and he'll always be remembered, yet you'd probably pass him by in the street. Yet to be fair to you, I have met some mat fighters who strut a little.

It's not about winning, but handling defeat. On the mat, or in the street.

So come on folks, how do you get timing, combinations, technique, power, speed,accuracy etc without sparring?

More than one way to skin a cat!

[Ozebob]

Hi Morphus,

You are right, i did have a lack of experience at that type of sparring and i had no business being in the comp' in the first place and deserved to get beat - but i deduced that, that type of sparring had no relivence to what i wanted to learn-street defence/fighting and was a negative move for me to make, i won't be entering again.

Good response, that's how you learn, take it on the chin and then some introspection usually reveals the cause and effect.

One point i was trying to make though was in competition there is always a loser, i have seen and known children/people be defeated or take a hefty blow(even in the dojo) and then because of this give up martial arts altogether,

As in life, one wins a contract, gets the position, is selected for promotion.. some one always loses if looked at in that light. However in competition one has the opportunity to test oneself and gain satisfaction in incremental personal bests. MA teaches one to never give up, persevere at all costs, those that drop out because of accidental contact have made a poor decision IMO.

where is the positive for those children/people; some people just aren't built to just get in there and do it, they need nurturing, bringing on a little slower at there own pace and they may never want to compete; some instructors who train winning teams may have little time for someone who doesnt want to compete or doesnt make the grade.


MA isn't for everyone and not all instructors are suited to the task.

At some point even a champion is going to be defeated, for some this is hard to take, again negative, ex-world champs'(boxing) have run the fast track into oblivion and found that so dibilitating its left there life in ruins; again negative. There are positives but one can't deny there are many, many negatives to glory hunting in sparring/competitions.

There are negatives when poor attitudes are developed, but hey that's life. I see competition as a useful training tool that has its place when young and can beused as a stepping stone to other types of training more appropriate as one ages.

Cheers,
Ozebob

[pgm316]

Seems that way Andy! Sparring is anything you make of it, so it makes no real sense to be againt it, its the closest you'll get to a real fight in the "dojo"!!!

[Jim]

One of the worst things I would think about in sparring competition (or any competition for that matter) is where one person comes to the realisation during the match that they are probably going to lose and rather than keep trying their best they decide to do something that will get them disqualified according to the match rules but leave the spectators (and their own fragile ego) thinking that they won because the opponent went down.

Anyone have personal experience of this (or have I strayed from the topic too much?).

[morphus]

You all make some valid points, and i take them on board-as i've said before i learnig from this forum.
I did say there positives in sparring/competition and lots of but, i still think there is a big negative to. I guess i have personally seen a quite few bad teachers, shouting and giving light abuse to students because they can't cut it, or even because theyre overweight, or uncoordinated in some way. I've also seen people get hurt in sparring/comp' the first time they enter and then give up, maybe MA wasn't for them but they weren't really given a chance were they? These people still may want to learn to defend themselves. So maybe there should be an alternative art that can take this kind of person, that only emphasises self defence, personal development and health with encouragement all the way!
:D

[wayofthedragon]

The way I spar.....before, when I use to spar with my MA teacher, and my brothers, and fellow MA classmates, we were, like just going at it (ofcourse we had on pads though:)) While sparing the teacher would continously give us tips, show us what we're doing wrong, show us what to do to improve, etc......
Now that I have no teacher, I spar with my roommate most of the time, who is a good martial artist. The way we spar is totally different ofcourse. We spar to learn. We go at a pace so that we could identify attacks, and develop counters, or whatever, and we just keep going. It's like a learning process or something. Its like... we don't spar to get over on eachother, or objective is not to win, but to learn. It's fun. and we also so eachother the mistakes we're making or they're making, and improve on it. It's like were teaching eachother. I like that way, versus the way that I spar with some of my other friends that are in the martial arts who try to attack at full force like they're fighting for there lives LOL
Anyway, just thought I'd share the way I spar:)

[energyboost]

i have been sparring full contact(no pads except for a cup)with a friend for the last year. We usually hit each other pretty hard but not as hard as we can. As we learn to take hits we progressivly hit each other a little harder, my parents always ask me why i always have bruises on my body or face.The point is this type of sparring hurts but at the same time makes you stronger, in that it forces you to use your energy in a more efficient way, both in absorption of blows and in your capability of delivering them.

[Cain]

Hmmm.........I agree with wayofthedragon no sparring, no martial arts.But you must take some important things into consideration -

1. Spar only after you have perfected your technique. When I was a white belt I was never allowed to spar unless I could perform all kicks and parries with good form. Believe me sparring does make you rowdy and you could perform jerky movements unless you have practised perfection in your techniques.

2. I have noticed some people saying that tournament sparring is useless because there are too many restrictions, I only partly agree with that because you are thrown into a handicap [ie no face punches allowed] and if you perform good in a handicap then you can perform still better without it. But some restrictions go way out of the line for eg sparrers should withdraw their hand after a punch.

nuff said sparring is the same as swimming as Bruce Lee once said 'to be able to learn to swim, you must first immerse into the water'

Hope I don't sound dumb :love:
Cain

[TkdWarrior]

hmm the kind of sparrin we do is more than semi contact ... it always hurts good when connected/failed to avoid... so u hav sense how much pain u can take... we hav nose bleed, jaws dislocated, hair line fractures, etc etc... worst was when one of BB got his rite kidney almost bursted...that was the worst case happened...
so the kind of sparring we do is very very compettive and realistic.
yup but again above waist...that's why i hate competition sparring...
in sparring u can also see how fast, how goodu can counter...
ppl got damn good speed... we only wear groin protectors...
and then i do some full contact sparring/figthing too... so i guess it all helps ...at least it would be better than doin nothing...
cons r that it hav become too much competition kind...normally fighter don't kick below wiast as they odn't hav habbit of doin it...
just my thoughts...
-TkdWarrior-