Muscle building/conditioning question

[progdan]

I was wondering what people's opinions on trying to build muscle bulk whilst also maintaining flexibility, strength and endurance, whether to start with light weights/many reps, and move up to heavy weights with few reps, or whether to do it the other way around, Heavy first, and then gradually get lighter with more repetitions? I've heard people say differing opinions, and I'm not sure which would be best? The starting light with more reps makes sense to me, as it would warm up you muscles before doing the heavy stuff, but I might be wrong...

[robertmap]

Hi,

Build muscle, heavy weights few reps

Maintain muscle, light weights many reps.

My personal opinion...

Have Fun.

[progdan]

Thanks for that. What about in the one workout session, if doing both, which should come first?

[Polar Bear]

Kettlebells. Been using them alot lately and they are great.

The Bear.

[Arnoo]

Kettlebells. Been using them alot lately and they are great.

The Bear.

second that

[JaxMMA]

I was wondering what people's opinions on trying to build muscle bulk whilst also maintaining flexibility, strength and endurance, whether to start with light weights/many reps, and move up to heavy weights with few reps, or whether to do it the other way around, Heavy first, and then gradually get lighter with more repetitions? I've heard people say differing opinions, and I'm not sure which would be best? The starting light with more reps makes sense to me, as it would warm up you muscles before doing the heavy stuff, but I might be wrong...

Do 12-week cycles.
First cycle: General fitness for 12 weeks
-4 sets of 10 reps

Second cycle: Hypertrophy/muscle gain for 12 weeks
-4 sets of 8 reps

Third cycle: Strength training for 12 weeks.
-4 sets of not more than 5-6 reps

If you never did weight lifting, start with lighter to get your tendons, ligaments, bones, and muscle used to it. Then switch to heavier.
Flexibility has to do a lot with strength. If the muscle is not strong enough to support a certain movement you won't get flexible much.
Are you training for any specific martial art?

[progdan]

Do 12-week cycles.
First cycle: General fitness for 12 weeks
-4 sets of 10 reps

Second cycle: Hypertrophy/muscle gain for 12 weeks
-4 sets of 8 reps

Third cycle: Strength training for 12 weeks.
-4 sets of not more than 5-6 reps

If you never did weight lifting, start with lighter to get your tendons, ligaments, bones, and muscle used to it. Then switch to heavier.
Flexibility has to do a lot with strength. If the muscle is not strong enough to support a certain movement you won't get flexible much.
Are you training for any specific martial art?

Thanks for that. I'm currently doing Krav Maga and Doce Pares Eskrima, but they're my first MA's and I only started this year, so my body has a fair bit of work to do to get up to scratch, I'm pretty skinny, have always been... Granted these MA's don't require huge amounts of flexibility, but at the moment I have very little, so there still needs to be improvement there. I'm also considering doing Wing Chun at some stage down the track. Do you mean in the weeks with lower reps, to use heavier weights?

[Banpen Fugyo]

Id recommend anything by Ross over at rossboxing.com/rosstraining.com.

His workouts and programs are designed to increase strength while also increasing endurance and "explosiveness". Pretty much what someone should do if he wants to stay around his same weight while increasing stamina and strength, and losing a bit of fat too ;)

For example, today I did (out of his book Infinite Intensity) a fitness type of workout consisting of:

16 minutes (total) of:

-Heavy Bag work
-Bodyweight squats
-Heavy Bag work
-Push ups

I did these at a 20 second work/10 second rest for 4 minutes each

Basically, you do 8 rounds of the first exercise, then move to the next.

Then after that, I did 3 sets of farmers walks for time.

Tomorrow is my strength day which (i dont have it in front of me) should include something like:

-Dumbbell Snatches
-Dumbbell push press
-Leg work like lunges/squats etc
-Pullups/pushups
-Sledgehammer training


Its great.

---------------------------------

Too long; didn't read:

Check out www.rosstraining.com

[JaxMMA]

Thanks for that. I'm currently doing Krav Maga and Doce Pares Eskrima, but they're my first MA's and I only started this year, so my body has a fair bit of work to do to get up to scratch, I'm pretty skinny, have always been... Granted these MA's don't require huge amounts of flexibility, but at the moment I have very little, so there still needs to be improvement there. I'm also considering doing Wing Chun at some stage down the track. Do you mean in the weeks with lower reps, to use heavier weights?

There's nothing wrong with having a lot of flexibility :)
Yes, in weeks when you train for strength you would use heavier weights with about 90% of your 1 rpm.

As Banpen Fugyo mentioned, books by Ross Enamit (rosstraining.com) are great and I like his workouts, but I think they are very intense especially for beginners.
If you have the means, get a book called Power Training by Robert dos Remedios (around $25 on Amazon.com). It doesn't focuss on fighter conditioning compared to Ross' Infinite Intensity, but it should get you in a good shape.
Once you're ready to step-up get Infinite Intensity by Ross Enamait ($25 as well). He gets very creative with home made equipment and exercises :)

[progdan]

Thanks for that, I'll check it out. I need more strength, more power, more flexibility, more awesomeness, more, more, MORE!!! haha it's gonna take a while methinks, better get all the resources I can... :D

[Knight_Errant]

Turkish getups are the answer to everything- EVERYTHING!
http://www.tacticalathlete.com/57_07_Turkish_Getup_1_DONE.pdf

[chof]

if you want to get big 4 sets is not going to cut it hypertrophy starts at 12-20 sets depending on your metabolism 6-8 reps also you have to work your legs it releases a growth hormone, the bigger the muscle the more it can be stretched, therefore more flexibility but you have to stretch it drink plenty of water and eat balanced meals, thats the secret ,work out put the time in12-20 sets per muscle group

[Knight_Errant]

hypertrophy starts at 12-20 sets
er... what?

[chof]

im talking about size not scrawny i think im big size real size

[Banpen Fugyo]

maybe he meant... weekly?

Or... total out of all the exercises you do in a day..

Or.. something.

[Knight_Errant]

Mind you, while he's guilty of an obviously egregious error it's the one I wouldn't normally pick up on that bothers me. Why do people think that strength and hypertrophy are unrelated? Muscular hypertrophy is the process by which muscles get bigger and stronger, not a separate process that's totally unrelated to strength.

[chof]

i do at least 100 sets a day 3 days a week work my legs 1 time a week 30 sets

[Arnoo]

Mind you, while he's guilty of an obviously egregious error it's the one I wouldn't normally pick up on that bothers me. Why do people think that strength and hypertrophy are unrelated? Muscular hypertrophy is the process by which muscles get bigger and stronger, not a separate process that's totally unrelated to strength.

Hypertrophy dousnt mean an increase in strenght per sé, it depends on how you train, eat, etc etc. But saying that all hypertrophy always results in an increase in strenght is not true.

taken from wiki

sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, the volume of sarcoplasmic fluid in the muscle cell increases with no accompanying increase in muscular strength

[chof]

that is sarcoplasmic, not hypertrophy, excessive development of muscle and yes you are wrong it always does develop strength, the muscle is larger, if you work out like a chick, you will look like one, spend some time in the gym, up those sets!

[Knight_Errant]

Hypertrophy dousnt mean an increase in strenght per sé, it depends on how you train, eat, etc etc. But saying that all hypertrophy always results in an increase in strenght is not true.
Which is why I didn't say it ;)
while you can get stronger without hypertrophy, hypertrophy, as I said, is the process by which a muscle gets bigger and stronger. Plus, it's difficult to see why you wouldn't want to get bigger and stronger.
if you work out like a chick, you will look like one, spend some time in the gym, up those sets!
So all those people doing good old-fashioned 5x5 routines in the gym are 'working out like chicks'? Talk sense, man.
i do at least 100 sets a day 3 days a week work my legs 1 time a week 30 sets
Oh I get it, you're a nutjob. Good luck with that :)

[Arnoo]

Which is why I didn't say it ;)
while you can get stronger without hypertrophy, hypertrophy, as I said, is the process by which a muscle gets bigger and stronger. Plus, it's difficult to see why you wouldn't want to get bigger and stronger.

Oh sorry i thoughed you did say that hypertrophy always results in more strenght my bad. Well hypertrophy is nice but if your restriced by a weight class then you cant put on extra muslce training the nervous system is the way to go.

[chof]

yes that is true the nervous system must be trained also, but that is not a strength issue

[Knight_Errant]

Oh sorry i thoughed you did say that hypertrophy always results in more strenght my bad. Well hypertrophy is nice but if your restriced by a weight class then you cant put on extra muslce training the nervous system is the way to go.
Oh yeah, definetly. I just think that in general strength vs. hypertrophy is a flawed method for choosing a rep range. It's much better to select based on a trainee's needs and not least the effects of the specific exercise.

[Banpen Fugyo]

I'll put in my own perspective:

I started weight training when I was young, but I got real serious a few years ago and started with 5x5. I got good results with it, but nothing spectacular.

I started doing 10x3 and I got to my highest weight of my life. I went from 175 lbs to 215 lbs in a few months. Yes, that is based on diet, but my lifts also double or tripled in some cases. For instance, my bench was a measly 135lbs and after the 10x3 I went up to 220 or so. I tried cutting fat after this and messed it up really horribly and dropped to 180lbs and my strength went with it.

After all of this, I kinda stopped training, started drinking a lot, and became lazy. Haha oops. Now, for the past 3 months Ive been doing crossfit type stuff and more specifically as of recently, the routines in Infinite Intensity.

I might not be as strong as I was a couple years ago, but Ive never felt in better shape. I can punch for hours, run for miles, jump higher, run faster, and knock the bag around really well. I wont win any lifting competitions, but overall, I feel much healthier, agile, flexible, and my strength feels more overall powerful and cohesive. (This is probably due to the intense core work)

Anyways, take that as you will

[chof]

5 sets no good, wont work 90 percent of people dont know what they are doing, i gave you the tip thats it!

[Knight_Errant]

From the sounds of it mate, you're definetly one of the 90 per cent. That or a troll. Nobody does 100 sets per exercise because a)it's massive overkill. You'd die. b)if you did manage to do 100 sets per exercise, they'd lack intensity to such an extent that you'd be basically wasting your time.

[Banpen Fugyo]

5 sets no good? :\ Im beginning to think you are just trolling now.

5x5 is the bread and butter of weight training. Thats like saying you shouldn't use dumbbells.

I mean, an entire life of doing nothing but 5x5 is one thing, but throwing it in for a few weeks, either as a beginner or a more experienced lifter, cant possibly be considered inadequate or useless...

[chof]

its not 100 sets per exercise more like twenty per exercise read my lips hypertrophy starts at 12 to 20 sets, 5 sets per muscle group is good for a beginer yes, if you want size12 to 20 sets per muscle group, ill do 0ver twenty sets for my bi, s alone example 5 sets dumbell curl, 5 preacher curl, 5 hammer curl, 5concentration, 5 zottmans, 5 cheat, you get it

[Knight_Errant]

It's 100 sets per workout? You should have said so then. It's still overkill, though.

[Stuart H]

that is sarcoplasmic, not hypertrophy, excessive development of muscle and yes you are wrong it always does develop strength, the muscle is larger, if you work out like a chick, you will look like one, spend some time in the gym, up those sets!

Are you saying sarcoplasmic is not hypertrophy? You're not too good with these terminologies are you? As for your hundred sets a day, I'd like to see you post up a vid of your workouts - by the sound of it you must have amaaaaaazing size and strength.

[Stuart H]

if you want to get big 4 sets is not going to cut it hypertrophy starts at 12-20 sets depending on your metabolism

Hilariously wrong.

also you have to work your legs it releases a growth hormone

Because that's the only reason to train your legs eh? And it's not like training your upper body releases any HGH or IGF-1 is it...

the bigger the muscle the more it can be stretched, therefore more flexibility but you have to stretch it

That's why there's a linear relationship with muscle size and flexibility, with skinny Chinese acrobats being the least flexible and Ronnie Coleman being the most so... oh wait....

[chof]

so you have a degree in sports medicine and exercise? i do

[Knight_Errant]

You have a degree in bull********, that much is clear.

[Fish Of Doom]

wasn't there a picture floating around of ronnie coleman doing the splits? i know i've seen it posted here on map some years back...

[progdan]

Oh dear, it would appear I've started some kind of war here... haha, thanks for all the varied advice though. I'm not really interested in becoming 'massive' anyway, just increasing my weight and strength as I proportionately increase my flexibility and agility in order to be both quick and strong to compliment the technique which I'm learing. :)

[Stuart H]

so you have a degree in sports medicine and exercise? i do

And claiming this with no evidence refutes my observation that you have no understanding of muscle's adaptation to exercise on a hormonal level, a statement that can be corroborated by reading easily-accessible literature? :rolleyes:

[Stuart H]

wasn't there a picture floating around of ronnie coleman doing the splits? i know i've seen it posted here on map some years back...

I can't find it on Google, but would like to see it if you got it. Having said that, ability to perform full splits isn't the sole correlate of appropriate flexibility for optimum performance in sports.

[Fish Of Doom]

@ww: true that, although it's still a very good indicator that someone is flexible, or at least, has the capability to develop flexibility.

couldn't find the image either (i've been searching for it for years) but i did find this: http://www.shengolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/n572600785_93170_2403-300x198.jpg

you also have to consider that while gymnasts aren't usually pro bodybuilder sized, they're still bigger than a good portion of the non-gymnast population of the world.

i'm not saying that getting flexible is easy no matter who you are, though, you DO have to work on it, however, it might be a factor that the psychological mindset required to effectively strength train will undoubtedly help a lot to train your flexibility properly, since one will be used to exerting oneself, not like the skinny dudes who say they'll never be flexible because they can't do a full split and then rage if you try to make them touch their ankles; imo, i'd say a bodybuilder is more likely to be flexible than one of those.

[chof]

good point, fish, ok its quite simple if you understand mass, everyone agrees that muscle can be stretched rght? so if you have 1 stick of gum and 5 sticks of gum clumped together which will stretch further? of course the clump with more mass, i am a hockey player and a martial artist , i have legs the size of most peoples waist, i have no problem throwin very high kicks

[JaxMMA]

Isn't anything over 12 reps pretty much endurance training?

There's no way that hypertrophy starts at 12 reps...

[chof]

12 sets read the thread

[JaxMMA]

12 sets read the thread

I did...as well as many others
You're the only person that claims that. Any way to back those claims?

[URBAN_ONI]

Progdan what have you done!!!!!!! :eek::) nah just kidden, but i wouldnt mind findin an answer to your question too as im basically after the same thing.

[progdan]

I know, this thread is turning into a monster! :eek: It does 12x sets per day, and just keeps increasing in size! :lifting: :p

[chof]

listen i told you my qualifications, im not one to be posting lnks, because i really dont care, but pick up a body building mag and check out the training routine and you will see at least for or five exercises for each muscle totaling at least 12 sets or more, even better get off your but and give it a try, remember its called a workout, not a fast out of the gym, 5 sets per muscle group is for b,s

[JaxMMA]

listen i told you my qualifications, im not one to be posting lnks, because i really dont care, but pick up a body building mag and check out the training routine and you will see at least for or five exercises for each muscle totaling at least 12 sets or more, even better get off your but and give it a try, remember its called a workout, not a fast out of the gym, 5 sets per muscle group is for b,s


I don't think you're grasping the whole concept of strength training vs. hypertrophy training.
Saying that 5x5 system is b.s. is pretty much going against what guys like Ripetoe, Ross Enamait, etc are saying about strenght training.
And, by the way, this is martialartsplanet.com not bodybuilding.com if you haven't noticed....

Cheers.

[Knight_Errant]

but pick up a body building mag and check out the training routine and you will see at least for or five exercises for each muscle totaling at least 12 sets or more
Yes- of sissy exercises ;) I don't know why you keep going on about your 'qualifications' when your talk suggests they aren't worth the paper they're printed on. That or- more likely- they don't exist :D

[chof]

you dont have to be a match stick to be a martial artist, look at andy hugg, he had legs as big as a house

[Knight_Errant]

And this proves what? what the hell are you on about now?

[Dean Winchester]

Chof I notice you have a long list, in your profile, of MA that you study; muat thai, tkd,long fistwing chun ,jeet kune do, shotokan, ninjitsu. That's an awful lot do you train in all these all the time?

[chof]

my first art was shotokan, i was a black belt at 16 and i kick boxed, i taught for a while also over the years i mastered many, now i incorporate all techniques together, but i prefer chinese martial arts for there spirtual aspect, i practice qi gong, so when i do train the qi points the way to the technique i will use

[Dean Winchester]

Some might say that's a pretty arrogant attitude to claim you've mastered many.
Anyway what's your Ninjutsu background, just out of interest.

[Nutjob]

Chof, dean alerted me to your BS a couple of hours ago so i have been doing a bit of research, first of all a fair amount of words you have come out with such as sarcoplasm are things i found after only being on my computer for 2 minutes, did you find it on wiki by any chance?

Secondly you are full of crap, working out just the times for your 100sets makes me realise you are a bit of a joke, 100 sets, say 30 seconds for the set plus a base 2mins for rest period (you do rest dont you? or are you superman as well? ) thats 250 minutes, thats a workout of 4hours 10 minutes, now let me know if i'm wrong but thats just foolish for anyone...

Looking into hypertrophy where i spend a lot of my time it is specified everywhere, and i mean everywhere i have scoured on the internet for the last two hours (i would like to see your evidence or a scan of your degree which i think is BS or you would be professional enough not to give out this rubbish) that the range of reps should be 6-15 reps or Light enough weights for good form, heavy enough to force growth the general sensus give 4 sets of 8-12 reps for best performance.

If i take 4 sets for each body part and do thre exercises, say
3x back x 4 sets
3x chest x 4 sets
3x arms x 4 sets
3x shoulders x 4 sets
3x legs x 4 sets

Thats 60 sets, if i could do all of that in one session i would be proud but i would guess by reaching half way i would be ready to collapse..

so to be honest unless you can come up with any specific proof then i think the general concensus is BS.

[Nutjob]

listen i told you my qualifications, im not one to be posting lnks, because i really dont care, but pick up a body building mag and check out the training routine and you will see at least for or five exercises for each muscle totaling at least 12 sets or more, even better get off your but and give it a try, remember its called a workout, not a fast out of the gym, 5 sets per muscle group is for b,s

I'm looking at muscle & fitness right now, one page gives me a power workout (all over body) with 9 exercises totaling 27 sets, another back workout gives me 15 set so you could be right about the highlighted part but i'm not reading 100sets anywhere....

[Knight_Errant]

my first art was shotokan, i was a black belt at 16 and i kick boxed, i taught for a while also over the years i mastered many, now i incorporate all techniques together, but i prefer chinese martial arts for there spirtual aspect, i practice qi gong, so when i do train the qi points the way to the technique i will use
And? I'd understand you putting that paragraph into a 'hi everybody' thread, but just randomly like that? why?

[chof]

because somone asked why i studied many arts? i thought i was full of it? so you have found 51 sets combined, have you heard of supersets, little or no rest? 51 may seem to work for this guy, maybe 100 for someone else? i said 12 to 20, i do twenty sets of dead lifts stiffies for my abs, i work out for a couple of hours yes i do, when you study or practice martial arts do you do it for 15 minutes or a half hour, i kick a bag for thirty minutes, also, answering someone elses thread, i have trained in traditional ninjutsu, acrobatics, mental training, meditation, strategy it incorporates throws, locks anatomy, techniques from many arts

[Knight_Errant]

I've heard of supersets, yes. Sitting down and doing 100 sets on the other hand is unheard of.

[Nutjob]

If i was doing supersets i would be doing the same amount of sets but supersetting between sets, i wouldnt be adding another 51 say, not sure where this 51 has come from, unless you cant count, but whether i did 4 sets of bench and 4 sets of low row separately or did 4 sets of supersets i would still only do the total of 8 sets, you do understand the concept of supersets dont you that it doesnt mean to do even more sets?

You are full of it dude...oh, and got that proof yet or your degree?

[Nutjob]

i have trained in traditional ninjutsu, acrobatics, mental training, meditation, strategy it incorporates throws, locks anatomy, techniques from many arts

does it? which stream and where?

[Dean Winchester]

i have trained in traditional ninjutsu, acrobatics, mental training, meditation, strategy it incorporates throws, locks anatomy, techniques from many arts

Traditional Ninjutsu?

Which style?

[chof]

togakure ryu and also dux ryu another thing if your working your shoulders, chest, tricepts, and abs, 20 per, is 80 sets, throw in another twenty for your neck and you have 100

[Nutjob]

right.....all of a sudden your advice seems even more a crock once you put these two together, tell you what, let us into where you have learned Togakure and maybe you could redeem yourself...

[chof]

where do you think i learned it? japan ,you limey

[Nutjob]

under who?

[chof]

takamatsu, lineage, i just dont throw out training methods and techniques, why dont you try them? check out some of my threads, kung, fu, jkd,muai thai etc...

[Yohan]

where do you think i learned it? japan ,you limey

Ok - I think that's quite far enough for the newbie sections of the H&F forum. Please continue any further conversations on chof's Ninjutsu background in the appropriate forum. If it goes any further here I'll lock the thread.

Second, Chof, calling your friend here a limey is a full on personal attack, which is solidly against the TOS.

Third, Chof, your advice is totally outdated. Almost every strength coach, figure competitor, athlete, and personal trainer in the world will agree that what you are recommending is far less than optimal. Don't do 20 sets per muscle group. It's a waste of time.

If you are going to hand out advice to newbies, please take your time to research, and actually come up with some good advice.

Thanks,
Yohan

[chof]

well, it works for me, sorry

[Nutjob]

togakure ryu and also dux ryu another thing if your working your shoulders, chest, tricepts, and abs, 20 per, is 80 sets, throw in another twenty for your neck and you have 100

if i work these groups in a session i would do 4 sets for each, maybe 5 at the max if i trying to fatigue, so you have 5 muscle groups i would do 20 sets, as said before your training is dubious.

[Nutjob]

and personal trainer in the world will agree that what you are recommending is far less than optimal

thats me!! and i can honestly say this guy is overtraining, if he was doing a routine for this long he would be suffering muscle breakdown...

[Dean Winchester]

Sorry but I just have to go LMAO Dux ryu!

Oh Chof both Nutjob and I train in Takamatsuden, although personally I try to stay away from referring to it as such as it is Hatsumi Sensei’s Budo I am learning not Takamatsu Sensei’s , if that makes sense.

oh and for the record I'd be very surprised if you'd actually learnt purely Togakure ryu to any real depth unless you'd spent a fair while in Japan and had a very good relationship with Soke.

Personally you're setting a lot of alarm bells off for me in the way you talk about your training but as requested I'll leave it, only reason I mentioned it to begin with was to see if there was any form of pattern in how you present yourself on here. i.e. if you're embellishing on your training then there's a good chance you might do it about something else.

Basically it was to see how trust worthy your posts are.

Anyway why not pop on over to the Ninjutsu section and take part in some discussion, fresh...er I mean new blood is always welcome.

[Yohan]

well, it works for me, sorry

Works for what?? Building maximal strength? Building endurance? What are your 5RM's on deadlift, BP, and row? Are you super strong from doing this?

I train with Strongman competitors, semi-pro and amateur athletes and their coaches on a weekly basis. None of those people are using the methods you advocate. You can't find a single top-tier athlete or lifter who recommends what you are advocating - that being said - why would you use sub-par, dated lifting methods, when more practical effective methods have been proven time and time again?

If you want my recommendation, you should ditch what you are doing and get ye to a strength coach and start lifting for real.

[Nutjob]

do you think you will get a real answer??

[Yohan]

do you think you will get a real answer??

No, I pretty much know what to expect at this point.

[progdan]

Wow, my thread went alot of places very quickly, thanks for bringing it back Yohan... :) And thanks for everyones contributions and advice, definately plenty of food for thought there. :cool:

[JaxMMA]

I love this thread