Hapkido Question

[Last Empire]

Hi

I went and checked out the local Hapkido club tonight, it was their grading and I thought it would be a good opportunity to see their syllibus, as I want my teen kids to do a martial art.

My question arises in serach for the "completeness" of the Hapkido style. I have seen on this forum that some people claiming to teach hapkido arnt teaching hapkido and I have taken that on board.

However, I what I saw was in general, some decent techniques, however the execution of the techniques wasnt as focused as I would have expected. The techniques that were done with an attacker and a defender were all based on being grabbed while standing and reacting, no counters to being punched or kicked. This was from white belt, through to red belt (Belt progression being white, yellow, blue, red black). Some kicks I saw I havent seen outside of ITF kick demonstrations, and this was in a WTF taekwondo with hapkido club.

While from my own training in other styles I can see how the applications of these techniques can be pulled off, I am wondering if this is not a complete hapkido, or a very reformatted hapkido if there were no counters to strikes and only demonstrated strikes when doing basics walking up and down the class individually.

I liked the instructor, I think the instructor was a welcoming and genuine nice guy and im sure he is not the kind to say he is teaching hapkido when he is not.

The Grand Master is a Sung Soo Lee, head master of Australia Hapkido Moohakkwan, who is affiliated with the Korea Hapkido Federation.

My general concern is that if I send my kids to this particular hapkido is it normal they wont be doing much defence against being punched or kicked at, or is this common in most Hapkido?

Im sorry if I sound in anyway like I am putting down hapkido, Im not, I am just trying to work out where it all fits in as I want them to learn how to defend themselfs from most common attacks. Sure I could show them stuff that I have learnt from other styles, but I do not want to confuse them, or teach them things that will conflict with their hapkido training too early on

Any information or advice is much appreciated

Thank you in advance

[Spinmaster]

Firstly, I'm coming from an Aikido standpoint here, as opposed to Hapkido, but I think in this case many of the same principles apply. We commonly learn techniques off of grabs because they are easier to learn that way - however, to be almost to black belt and to work off of only grabs sounds very incomplete. I'm a white belt (going to test for yellow tomorrow!! :)) and for most of my training we've worked with grabs. However, a couple weeks ago Coach had us work off countering a yokomen strike (which translates nicely to countering a hook, haymaker, etc.).
So I guess my point is, you should be learning to counter strikes way before red belt (to use the ranking system you described).

[Giovanni]

i agree with spinmaster in saying that teaching counters to strikes should be taught well before red belt. but it could just be this person's teaching style. i'm sure there's lots of more experience people on this site who have thoughts on this. but from my own point of view, and being a 1st degree black belt, is that black belt really just means that a person has mastered the very basics; there is still an incredible amount of information to learn. it could be that this instructor just chooses to be very slow and methodical, and i don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that. teaching techniques from grabs first is normal i think.

maybe you should check out a regular class? also, are there other hapkido dojangs you can check out to compare to?

[Kraen]

For my yellow belt (punch and kick defense wise) I had to know 4 kick blocks and 6 punch blocks. For my yellow bar I needed to know 4 more kick blocks, and for my green belt I need to know another 7 kick blocks and 8 punch blocks. (and do all of them.)

Maybe he's not touching on punch/kick defense because he saves that for TKD? I've heard some clubs teach TKD + HKD don't even bother teaching kicks/strikes because they teach ways to deal with those types of attacks in TKD. Giving students options of what they want to learn?

Just something I've heard.

-Kraen

[Last Empire]

Firstly, I'm coming from an Aikido standpoint here, as opposed to Hapkido, but I think in this case many of the same principles apply. We commonly learn techniques off of grabs because they are easier to learn that way - however, to be almost to black belt and to work off of only grabs sounds very incomplete. I'm a white belt (going to test for yellow tomorrow!! :)) and for most of my training we've worked with grabs. However, a couple weeks ago Coach had us work off countering a yokomen strike (which translates nicely to countering a hook, haymaker, etc.).
So I guess my point is, you should be learning to counter strikes way before red belt (to use the ranking system you described).


Hey, I hope you do well in your grading :) Well its good to see that thats what happens in Aikido, and hopefully like you said some of the lower belts will be doing the same kind of thing with strikes in the future :)

i agree with spinmaster in saying that teaching counters to strikes should be taught well before red belt. but it could just be this person's teaching style. i'm sure there's lots of more experience people on this site who have thoughts on this. but from my own point of view, and being a 1st degree black belt, is that black belt really just means that a person has mastered the very basics; there is still an incredible amount of information to learn. it could be that this instructor just chooses to be very slow and methodical, and i don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that. teaching techniques from grabs first is normal i think.

maybe you should check out a regular class? also, are there other hapkido dojangs you can check out to compare to?

I think you are right, I will check out a class, cause i mean i hope that they do more work using the syllabus (Spelling) and not just learn only what is needed for the grading, perhaps I will see some differences there?

For my yellow belt (punch and kick defense wise) I had to know 4 kick blocks and 6 punch blocks. For my yellow bar I needed to know 4 more kick blocks, and for my green belt I need to know another 7 kick blocks and 8 punch blocks. (and do all of them.)

Maybe he's not touching on punch/kick defense because he saves that for TKD? I've heard some clubs teach TKD + HKD don't even bother teaching kicks/strikes because they teach ways to deal with those types of attacks in TKD. Giving students options of what they want to learn?

Just something I've heard.

-Kraen

Now that is a good point also, I can definately see that as a possibility, however i hope that isnt the way since I really dont want to have to send the kids there on a different night to get the tkd striking counters lol as well as the hapkido lol... good excuse for not doing homework though. You hapkido style sounds really fun I hope this one turns out to be half as good :)

Thanks for your reply guys

[Bruce W Sims]

Something I have noticed over the years, and across many forums, is the view that a given Martial Art must satisfy the expectations or priorities of the observer. Among these are such opinions that the art must be "inexpensive", "easy", "effective", "fun", "interesting" etc etc. After a while I begin to wonder just what it is that the "consumer" is bringing to the table.

First off, let me say that if a person has children, a Hapkido art is not what I would choose for their MA experience. Traditional Hapkido is pretty sophisticated, and not a little violent having had at least one of its major contributions from Japanese YAWARA during the 20th Century.

Secondly, I would think that a person who is considering introducing children to MA would need to prioritize what it is that they would like the children to take away. If self-defense, learned quickly, is the top priority then I would probably start with a KID-POWER class where the focus is full-contact self-defense. If being exposed to MA is the a priority I might start with, say, a TKD or KARATE class.

IMHO I think putting children into a Hapkido class is very much a matter of starting them in the "deep end of the pool". If I were counseling someone about this I would actually encourage them to sit-down and make a list of the priorities such as I started to list above and then begin to match those priorities to identify what the three most important ones are. Personally, I don't actually think its a MA that you are looking for, but thats just an opinion I formed from reading your post. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Yakka]

Hi,
I agree with Bruce, I think the kids could benefit & enjoy the Karate / Judo/ TKD route until they get older and learn to focus and control.
I think the control & pressure degrees that has to be applied with the techniques of Authentic Hapkido are maybe a big responsability for young shoulders ( I hope I do not come across patronising here).
The responsability of restraint and control with a bone breaking technique may be hard to handle.

regards
Yakka

[Kraen]

At my school locks are taught to children.. but the first 3 tests are just basic blocks, strikes and break falls for the most part. They don't see any locks until they've been there for a bit and understand what's what. And that what is Self Defense, not beating people up, showing off or picking fights.

-Kraen

[Last Empire]

Hey guys, thanks for the further info, I was hoping Mr Sims would share his thougts, and its a good sign that that idea has been backed up by Yakka

Yeah I wanted hapkido because i thought it be more likely for my kids, young teens to learn how to defend especially in the case of girls, from if they got grabbed or something, but now you mention it learning the angles may be throwing them in the deep end

Thank you for your thoughts guys :) really helps

[Spinmaster]

i thought it be more likely for my kids, young teens to learn how to defend especially in the case of girls, from if they got grabbed or something


Judo would be really good, I think; it teaches you how to work against grabs, and teaches you how to make things work against a resisting opponent (often bigger than yourself). And it has groundwork, which is important to womens' self defense.
I can't speak for TKD, but I know that Tang Soo Do teaches defense against grabs and such, as well as what many people think of as the more "karate-like" stuff.

NOTE: My comments on Judo are based on reading I've done on MAP and a couple other places, I haven't actually trained Judo.

[Yakka]

Yes, Spinmaster, Judo is very good for kids, I started off at 12yrs old at my local judo club, it is excellent and is great for close quarter work, the ground work is very beneficial as a lot of fights do go to the ground. I would start them there for grappling experiences as well as balance & co-ordination with throwing. Equally Karate is great for kids too, teaching balance co-ordination, discipline, focus & control as well as flexibility power & technique.
(I'll get of my soap box now ha ha)

Yakka

[Bruce W Sims]

Agreed. (text deleted)

[Yakka]

Bruce,
We are singing from the same hymn sheet.
regards
Yakka

[Thomas]

Hi

I went and checked out the local Hapkido club tonight, it was their grading and I thought it would be a good opportunity to see their syllibus, as I want my teen kids to do a martial art.

My question arises in serach for the "completeness" of the Hapkido style. I have seen on this forum that some people claiming to teach hapkido arnt teaching hapkido and I have taken that on board.
As far as “completeness” goes, I’m pretty happy with Hapkido. I’ve trained in “traditional” Hapkido and currently train (and teach) Combat Hapkido (http://www.dsihq.com/)

To me, the most valuable aspect of this is that the art deals very well with different “levels of force”, ranging from avoidance to escape to deadly force. For me this translates well for the realistic needs of our students, who range in employment from teachers and students to prison guards to construction workers. To me, the time spent on varying levels of response and force is where Hapkido shines as a “self defense” art

From the schools I’ve trained in, I find Hapkido to be “pretty good” overall in striking, locking/throwing, falling, footwork, and overall self defense concepts. It also has a good practical set of weapons use and defenses.

When I say “pretty good”, I also recognize that by spending time on a fairly wide variety of skills, students tend to have a good set of general skills abut may not be “world class” in any specific skillset. To me, that’s not a bad thing…the general skillset, combined with surprise/motivation/will is generally enough to ensure “survival”. In other words, I find the art very practical for general self defense but wouldn’t take it on its own for competition in the MMA, Kickboxing, Point fighting, or Judo worlds.

For my own training, our school (and federation (ICHF) for that matter) has felt the need to add in some other skills sets to round out our own. The ICHF has added modules for (BJJ-sourced) ground survival and (FMA-based) stick and knife combatives. I feel that these skillsets, along with cross training and here-and-there exploration of other arts help make my skills more “complete” for my own perceived needs.


Overall, I see Hapkido (or Combat Hapkido) as a great stand-alone art in general or even as a great “core” art to use as a base for cross training. Granted, with the focus more rooted in practical self defense, our school doesn’t allow kids under 14 to train in Combat Hapkido. For those students, we recommend Taekwondo… which is a good way to get them into the striking and basic self defense skills and concepts and controlled sparring so they will have a decent background when they join Hapkido later.

Listed below is my own loose generalization of what you can probably expect in a Hapkido school (and this depends greatly on the school, master, and federation)


- Korean Cultural Focus – basic knowledge of Korean cultural norms such as bowing, wearing of the uniform, etiquette, etc.

- Lineage – a clear path to the founder (Choi Yong Sool) through himself or his students, keeping in mind that differences in lineage will affect the outward expression of the art.

- Level of Force knowledge and application

- Morals, ethics and expected conduct

- Fundamental Philosophy
1.류 Ryu - Flow
o Do not meet the force straight on. Disperse it and let it flow by.
o Fluid movement maximizes the transition between offense to defense and defense to offense. Manipulate the opponent's openings.
o Fluidity allows for the synthesis of external and internal energy. Learn to coordinate both forces.

2.원 Won- Circle
o Centripetal, centrifugal, spinning forces are utilized for efficient self-defense techniques.
o Circular movements make it possible to use the opponent's strength against him. It also allows for offensive and defensive techniques to be executed simultaneously. The stronger the attacking force of the opponent, stronger the force of retaliation.
o The circle symbolizes the source of the universe and its limitlessness. In Hapkido the circle represents the comprehensiveness of the art, which includes linear, arcing, circular offensive and defensive techniques. It also reminds us that there can be no bounds in our martial arts training. Only through continual training and patience one can progress forward.

3.화 Wha - Harmony
o Harmony of the law of mind, ki, body that implies the foundation of martial arts.
o Harmonize with opponent's force and make that force your own.
o Harmonize the principles of martial arts to understand its true meaning. Never discontinue training in order to find the righteous path of man.
(definitions from GM In Sun Seo http://www.kidohae.com/prin-fund.html)




Concrete Foundation (application of Philosophical Foundation)
- Danjeon Breathing (KI development)
- Use of proper stances, lowering center, live hand, push/pull
- Footwork (circular and linear, use of footwork to apply leverage or escape)

Basic Techniques
- Strikes (variety of open and closed hand)
- Kicks (low targets)
- Breakfalls
- Basic Joint Locks
- Basic Throws and Sweeps

Application
- Wrist grabs (same side, cross side, 2 hands on 1, 2 hands on 2, front and rear attacks)
- Garment grabs (various parts of the body, front and rear)
- Other situational defenses (Sitting, lying prone, hair grabs, headlocks, handshake defenses, chokes, rear attacks, etc.)
- Some multiple attacker defenses

Defenses
- Defenses against Strikes (variety of open and closed hand)
- Defenses against Kicks
- Defenses/escapes against Basic Joint Locks
- Defenses/escapes against Basic Throws and Sweeps

Weapons Use
- Basic elements of attack and defenses with knife, stick, cane, staff or improvised weapon


Weapons Defense (empty hand versus or weapon versus)
- Basic elements of defenses against knife, stick, cane, staff, or improvised weapon using empty hand or weapon

Other
- Kook Sool – there may be elements of other Korean arts imbedded within the lineage practiced at this school, making outward appearances differing to other schools.

[Last Empire]

Thank you Thomas, that was very informative. perhaps I should do hapkido and not the kids lol