Leg Stretcher/Inner Thigh..

[GaryT85]

this thread isnt me asking if people think leg stretching machines are 'worth it' and so on.... i just got one, it was given to me, so i didnt pay a penny.

so there :rolleyes:

anyway;

i havent been doing MA for all that long, and i feel that my flexibility needs to improve... (mainly for higher kicks i guess)

after a bit of a warm up i can throw a roundhouse to about my neck/chin height (im 5'10") but its not as easy as it could be if i was more flexible.... that and the fact i have to drop my body quite a bit to get the height.

last night after training i got in and decided to sit on the machine and see what it was like. i sat in it, and i was surprised that when i got it to 90deg it felt like a bit of a strain.

90deg was a shock... i can stand and do a side leg raise to 90deg and hold it, so when sat in a leg stretch machine surely 90deg is nothing....?

i could really feel the stretch on my inner thigh, closer to the knees (as opposed to higher up, near the groin). whilst doing dynamic stretching before throwing kicks at training/home punchbag the stretch is felt closer the to my groin.

is this odd? why only 90deg? i gradually increased after some relaxing and maybe got to 110deg.....(though i can normally kick to about this or more)

just wondering as i dont know a great deal about all this and want to improve my flexibilty in general, but high kicking is the main issue.


(that plus im starting capoeira tomorrow so i think it will come in handy)

[Rajveer]

When you kick you're not in the same position as you are when sitting doing a side split, you're rear foot faces more towards the back and your hips are turned. It's more like a front split than a side split, or a bit of both. Check this picture and see how the orientation of the hips and the foot rotation is similar to a front split:

http://www.stadion.com/gif/Fronmawa.jpg

Obviously you still need good adductor flexibility (the inner-thigh muscle you refer to), and being able to do the side splits means that you can kick higher with less chance of injury to your adductors, so keep up the splits training!

[GaryT85]

thanks rajveer, makes sense as to why i can kick higher than the angle i could sit stretched in..

dont know why i didnt think of it, seems a bit obvious now that its been mentioned, d'oh :bang:

but cheers, i have the day off, so i think im gonna get outside and do some training + stretching :)

[bphan002]

How do you get a better inner thigh stretch because like me and the original poster I feel it closer to my knees.

[chof]

try this stretch put your legs to the side as far as you can go forming in upside down v of course, now lower your upper body soyour chest touches the ground balance on your two elbows with your arms in a L position, NOW ROLLYOUR HIPS TO THE FLOOR ALSO, this is great for spinning kick flexibilty, stretches the abducters and everything else you will notice height coming fast

[Van Zandt]

Flexibility is position specific, because there are two types of receptors in your muscles: one which detects how far and how fast you stretch, and the other detects how far only. Doing splits and other such floor stretches will not improve your kicking-specific flexibility anywhere close to what standing stretches will. If you need assistance, drop the floor stretching machines and opt for a stand-up one. The Stretch Loop (http://www.stretchloopstretcher.com) is ideal for this.

[GaryT85]

Flexibility is position specific, because there are two types of receptors in your muscles: one which detects how far and how fast you stretch, and the other detects how far only. Doing splits and other such floor stretches will not improve your kicking-specific flexibility anywhere close to what standing stretches will. If you need assistance, drop the floor stretching machines and opt for a stand-up one. The Stretch Loop (http://www.stretchloopstretcher.com) is ideal for this.

thanks for the advice..

(just on a similar note - you mention in other threads that the machines are decent.... what is their benefit in comparison?)

[Van Zandt]

Horizontal floor-based machines will help you improve flexibility in floor-based stretches only, so they are useful if you want to do the splits.

But, if you're not concerned about doing the splits and want to improve flexibility in kicking positions, a device like the Stretch Loop (http://www.stretchloopstretcher.com) is ideal.

Remember: Flexibility is speed, position and joint specific. This goes some way to explaining why your stretch during a kick is greater than your stretch on the floor-based machine.

[GaryT85]

ok thanks again..

i may get hold of one of the stretchloop things. i guess the machine i was given can still be used, for additional flexibility stretches..

overall i think i am gradually becoming more able to kick higher by kicking + dynamic stretching... maybe i am just being impatient

[Van Zandt]

Don't worry, we're all like that! :cool:

[Knight_Errant]

yes, but for god's sake keep away from any sort of stretching machine. They force the position, which is a)counter productive and b)dangerous.

[Van Zandt]

The athlete is always in control of the machine, so it's only the athlete who can force the position. Forcing a stretch without a machine is just as counter-productive, but to write off machines altogether is wrong. Machines help athletes assume and maintain positions that they may not yet be strong enough to do without assistance, or are recovering from an injury. For example, I may need a hip replacement and the Stretch Loop at least helps me keep some semblance of my flexibility without messing it up further (as floor stretches do).

[Knight_Errant]

so if it's only the athlete who can force the position, why not dispense with the machine entirely and just, you know, not force the position? I ask only for information. If you're not strong enough to hold the position, why are you not just doing an easier stretch?

[Van Zandt]

Flexibility is like any other type of athletic development - gains are made by increasing training load. In terms of stretching, the most effective way to increase training load is to deepen the stretch. If you are not strong enough to deepen the stretch, external assistance can be beneficial. What you call "forcing the stretch" is simply exceeding current limits, and is no different to (or more/less dangerous than) adding extra weight in your lifting routine, or increasing the distance of your run. I don't know why people think pushing yourself when stretching is particularly risky; it is not, provided you do it sensibly (just like in other types of exercise). Think of stretching machines like a spotter - not necessary, but beneficial. If you never push your limits, you will never improve.

The bottom line is that you will make gains faster doing stretches with and without a machine, than either method alone.

Stay well.

[Knight_Errant]

Yeah, but there's surely a difference between exceeding your limits and using some sort of sinister contraption to force your legs apart. I mean, I'd rather have intact knees than faster gains.

[Van Zandt]

Stretching machines can help you control the rate of progression into a stretch. Take the Versaflex for example: It increases the stretch 5 degrees each turn of the ratchet. The pads hold your legs in place and let you wait out the tension. This is certainly safer than using a human partner, or putting on a pair of woolly socks and trying to slide into a split on the laminated wood flooring in your living room. And the majority of knee pain during stretching is through lack of strength in the muscles that stabilise them, not an awkward position. Machines like the Versaflex are actually designed to take pressure off the knees.

Stretching machines have their pros and cons, and it's up to the individual athlete to make up his or her own mind.

Stay well.

[GaryT85]

handy that you two are discussing this, gives me more answers without asking any questions :cool:

[Knight_Errant]

I can kind of see your point, superfoot, but my point is; are they necessary? And if not, why use them?

[Fish Of Doom]

@ superfoot: if the machine takes the pressure off the knees, doesn't that mean that you also forfeit any strengthening you might gain in the stabilizer muscles?. if your knee hurts, it means it's buckling under the strain, so what I would do, personally, is loosen the position a bit so that there's still pressure but no pain, and work on holding* that until i can stabilize my knee, and only then progressing further into the stretch. sincerely, i see no reason to gain more and more flexibility if the positions are only going to get weaker and weaker.

*holding might be a bad term, since it implies being static, i mean something more like, being in that position and moving and rotation my leg to actively engage the stabilizers while the main muscles stretch.

[Van Zandt]

Knight_Errant,

They are not necessary for improving flexibility in a healthy individual. Floor stretches alone will do that. But using a machine in conjunction with floor stretches will get you to your goal faster [than just doing floor stretches]. So use a stretching machine as well as floor stretches if you want to get there quicker.

Machines/devices may be necessary for individuals who are injured. Take myself for example. I am awaiting an operation to repair my left hip. I cannot do floor stretches [even on a machine]. But standing stretches for my right leg are ok. A device such as the Stretch Loop helps immensely with this, and is necessary when a partner is not available.

[Van Zandt]

Fish of Doom,

Most knee pain during stretching is caused by stress on the ligaments. Yes, strengthening the muscles that stabilise the knee joint will go some way to delaying the onset of pain. But you strengthen these stabilising muscles through specific exercises such as squats, lunges, deadlifts, and isometric stretches. The strength gains you make in a stretch by tensing the muscles that are not being stretched, are negligible. Also during relaxed stretches [where machines really help] you want to move and tense as little as possible. But you are right, flexibility should always be developed in conjunction with strength.

[Fish Of Doom]

i see what you mean. my methodology is to use both types of strengthening, not only developing pure muscular strength, but learning to apply it in multiple ranges of motion and in different positions.

fair point about injuries though, that's very true

[Van Zandt]

Your methodology is spot on there mate, best way to go :cool:

[Fish Of Doom]

yay
*happy dance*

[Knight_Errant]

Knight_Errant,

They are not necessary for improving flexibility in a healthy individual. Floor stretches alone will do that. But using a machine in conjunction with floor stretches will get you to your goal faster [than just doing floor stretches]. So use a stretching machine as well as floor stretches if you want to get there quicker.

Machines/devices may be necessary for individuals who are injured. Take myself for example. I am awaiting an operation to repair my left hip. I cannot do floor stretches [even on a machine]. But standing stretches for my right leg are ok. A device such as the Stretch Loop helps immensely with this, and is necessary when a partner is not available.
Oh right, fair nuff.

[Rajveer]

Flexibility is position specific, because there are two types of receptors in your muscles: one which detects how far and how fast you stretch, and the other detects how far only. Doing splits and other such floor stretches will not improve your kicking-specific flexibility anywhere close to what standing stretches will. If you need assistance, drop the floor stretching machines and opt for a stand-up one. The Stretch Loop (http://www.stretchloopstretcher.com) is ideal for this.

In those pics, there are people doing both front and side kick stretches with the Stretch Loop. With the front kick, it's the kicking leg's hamstring that's being stretched, but with the side kick it's the supporting leg's adductors being stretched right? My question is can the supporting leg adductor stretch be considered a relaxed stretch if the leg (and therefore the adductor itself) is being used to support the body, and therefore is it safe to do when muscles are sore just like other relaxed static stretches? Or am I looking too much into it?

[Van Zandt]

Right on all accounts, Rajveer. You can do relaxed stretches just like any other time, when using the Stretch Loop.