JKD - a MA only for the experienced?

[Scaramouch]

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere................

I do not not and have not practised JKD but I have read about it in B Lee's books. I can very much appreciate where he comes from as a highly competant and experienced MA-ist. I see JKD as one of the first modern MA, where it borrows techniques from both other unarmed MAs and weapons based MAs (effectively cross-training before the phase was coined).

My questions are:

How do beginners with no MA experience find JKD? Can they pick up the techniques easily? Do they stick with it?

Have most JKD practioners (that stick with it) had previous (high level - i.e. a few years) MA experience, and then they have found JKD very beneficial to them?

I believe that with most modern MAs (created by individual masters) that the latter is more the case, but would be interested to hear what the JKD community thinks.

[ap Oweyn]

One of the most highly regarded JKD people in the world came into it with no prior experience. Ted Wong. Granted, you could make the argument that his teachers (Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto, I believe) were exceptional. But personally, I see no reason why a good teacher couldn't teach a student from scratch.

Bruce Lee actually stated (if memory serves) that he preferred people had no prior experience. No preconceptions that way.


Stuart B.

[Scaramouch]

Thanks for the reply Stuart. I can appreciate that B Lee would have preferred his students to have no prior experience and I could imagine he would have been a massive inspiration to those he taught.

I do not, however, think that whether JKD provides a good MA for beginners is a bad thing, it is more of a observation of current times. My guess would be that most JKD practioners are cross-trainers and have previous experience, but I would find it very interesting to hear the contrary.

You see JKD advertised in the UK mainly at MMA gyms, as just a part of their syllabus.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Scaramouch

You see JKD advertised in the UK mainly at MMA gyms, as just a part of their syllabus.


There is a very good reason for that :D

[Scaramouch]

Which is........................(with bated breath)..............?

[Yukimushu]

JKD is more a concept not a martial art. It's supprising the ammount of people who still refer to JKD as a style... and personally i believe that anyone with any martial arts experiance is able to follow concept of JKD. It's about finding your own way, what works for you... might not work for others.

The word " Jeet Kune Do " is merely a reference to the concept which Bruce Lee believed in. These beliefs came around by the studying of Philosophy... mainly Plato's theory of forums, and Rene Descartes philosophy of knowledge.

Now if your studying Jun Fan JKD then that's a different thing to Jeet Kune Do... as that has sets and style to it.

Ultimatly though, the whole concept of JKD works towards liberation and self expression... as most art forms such as painting or drawing do... because the artist portrays his feelings onto the paper or the canvas... B.Lee believed that martial arts is no different.

[moondog]

i totally agree with Yukimushu. jeet kune do is not a martial art style, it's a way of thinking. on the last page of Tao of Jeet Kune Do, Bruce Lee wrote that JKD is merely a name and is not to be confused with a style. categorizing it as a style limits it, since to become a style it has to be "this" and not "that." that's the last thing Bruce Lee would have wanted.

i heard that Bruce Lee even regretted putting a name to it, since names define things, therefore limiting them. everything is JKD, it's about accepting everything that works for you, and discarding the rest. if high kicks work for you then use them, they may not work for someone else, that doesn't mean that you both aren't doing JKD.

[Scaramouch]

JKD - MA or concept? I know this has been discussed a great deal on this forum and I do not want to re-start it here.

However, if JKD is a concept why does it require a separate forum? Surely then any issues raised here could be discussed in the general MA or philosophy forums?

I agree, the Tao of Jeet Kune Do describes the concept but in the book series "Bruce Lee's Fighting Method", he describes certain techniques he has developed. Am I wrong in assuming these are JKD techniques? Or would you say these are just MA techniques without putting any label to them?

I am not trying to be argumentative, I'm just a bit confused.........

[moondog]

i feel that in his book series "Bruce Lee's Fighting Method", Bruce describes his fighting method. this is the combination of techniques that work for him. another person may not find the same techniques effective for him, for whatever reason(s). i feel that JKD is a way of thinking, much like buddhism is not a religion, but a philosophy on how to live life. just my opinion of course :)

[Scaramouch]

Thanks moondog, that has helped.

I had assumed that the techniques in the book series Bruce Lee's Fighting Method was JKD. I guess what you and others are saying is that it is as the titles suggests, the books are Bruce Lee's Fighting Method(s), not JKD (the concept). So as Yoda has hinted, any MMA gym could say they teach JKD as it is a non-specific MA? No formal qualifications required, just need to read (and understand) the Tao of Jeet Kune Do? Or is that not necessary either?

By the way, I really like the Bruce Lee's Fighting Method books. But I do think that alot of the techniques are not well suited to the beginner.

[Yukimushu]

Originally posted by Scaramouch
JKD - MA or concept? I know this has been discussed a great deal on this forum and I do not want to re-start it here.

However, if JKD is a concept why does it require a separate forum? Surely then any issues raised here could be discussed in the general MA or philosophy forums?

I agree, the Tao of Jeet Kune Do describes the concept but in the book series "Bruce Lee's Fighting Method", he describes certain techniques he has developed. Am I wrong in assuming these are JKD techniques? Or would you say these are just MA techniques without putting any label to them?

I am not trying to be argumentative, I'm just a bit confused.........

Well, basically... The Tao Of Jeet Kune Do is a publication of Bruce Lee's personal method of fighting... its not a book on fighting... They were originally his own personal notes to make himself a better fighter.


And yes, the fighting method books are excellent... I've usually always got one in my college bag :) at the moment i've his advance techniques in my college bag :)

[Matt_Bernius]

Sigh... Once more unto the breach:

Jeet Kun Do - Is a fighting philosophy named by Bruce Lee. It is often used by people to mean the same thing as:

Jun Fan - Bruce's personal "Art." The base of Jun Fan is Wing Chun, however it's was suplimented with techniques and concepts from other systems.

The Tao of Jeet Kun Do is concidered the "Bible" of the Jeet Kun Do philosophy, but it's important to understand that the bulk of it was assembled/edited after Bruce Lee's death (regardless of what is shown in "Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story"). We can assume that Bruce would approve of all the notes that were included in the book, but there is no way to know for sure.

Onto certification: There are two main groups that certify Jun Fan/JKD instructors:

- JKD Nucleus - This is Linda Lee's faction.

- JKD Concepts - This is Dan Inasanto's faction.

In theory anyone who is teaching JKD should be certified through one of those two organizations. However, it's also true that anyone can pick up the Tao and declare themselves a master of JKD philosophy. I'd be little skeptical of those folks. If you ask the instructor they should be able to give you their linage back to Bruce. If they can't or they mumble something about reading everything that he's written, understand that they are not a certified instructor. They might still be very good, but if you're looking for someone "official" you better keep on going.

- Matt

[Scaramouch]

Thanks for the clarification (and the patience).

OK lets try again..........................

How do beginners with no MA experience find Jun Fan JKD? Can they pick up the techniques easily? Do they stick with it?

Have most Jun Fan JKD practioners (that stick with it) had previous (high level - i.e. a few years) MA experience, and then they have found Jun Fan JKD very beneficial to them?

I believe that with most modern MAs (created by individual masters) that the latter is more the case, but would be interested to hear what the Jun Fan JKD community thinks.

[Matt_Bernius]

Originally posted by Scaramouch
Thanks for the clarification (and the patience).
No prob!

Originally posted by Scaramouch
OK lets try again..........................Sure!

Originally posted by Scaramouch
How do beginners with no MA experience find Jun Fan JKD? Can they pick up the techniques easily? Do they stick with it?Well they find it by looking in the phone book or local directory for a school... Oh wait. Silly me, that wasn't want you were asking. At the end of the day Jun Fan/JKD is just another art. Bruce, Dan and a lot of others have worked very hard to structure it so you can be a complete neophyte to the martial arts and still learn. But like any art there are people who find that it fits their style and others who won't.

There are successful JKD programs in my relative area and the majority of their students came in with no experience.

Originally posted by Scaramouch
Have most Jun Fan JKD practioners (that stick with it) had previous (high level - i.e. a few years) MA experience, and then they have found Jun Fan JKD very beneficial to them?Again I know of a number of Jun Fan JKD instructors who started in the art with no experience. And I know a number who did have previous experience in other arts as well. Like any system an individuals milage in JKD is going to vary based on the individual.

Originally posted by Scaramouch
believe that with most modern MAs (created by individual masters) that the latter is more the case, but would be interested to hear what the Jun Fan JKD community thinks. I think your getting hung up on the "Modern" title ascribed to Jun Fan JDK. The fact is the basics of the system come from other, much older and more established systems. So you're learning fundimentals that you would learn in other arts. A beginner coming into Jun Fan JKD can often pick this material up faster than someone with established, contradictory training. For example if you are a trained Cat Stance/T Stance fighter it's going to take a while to adjust your guard/stance structure to the fighting stance used in Jun Fan (much closer to a boxer's stance).

At the end of the day, as I said before everyone's milage with a particular art is going to vary. Experience level may influence things, but it's not the be all or end all. Generically I would say that open minded individuals with existing, good training will have easier times picking up the more complex concepts of any art. That's due to experience.

Hope this helps,

- Matt

[Yukimushu]

LOL yeah, Dragon: The Bruce Lee story is incorrect in many places.

Obviously based upon B.Lee's life, it's been altered to make the film more dramatic.

Especially the part where they say that he damaged his back in a fight... When he actually damaged his back doing a lower back strenghtening excersize (cant remember the exact weight off the top of my head.)

[Matt_Bernius]

Originally posted by Yukimushu
LOL yeah, Dragon: The Bruce Lee story is incorrect in many places.

Obviously based upon B.Lee's life, it's been altered to make the film more dramatic.

Especially the part where they say that he damaged his back in a fight... When he actually damaged his back doing a lower back strenghtening excersize (cant remember the exact weight off the top of my head.) Or the fact that Dan Inasanto was completely exercised from the story.

On and as a follow up I just read the the JKD Nucleus has disolved as an organization. That leaves JKD Concepts as the major named JKD family.

- Matt

[Yukimushu]

Heehe yup, thats another major mistake made :) No mr Inosanto! :(

[BryanX]

Yeah, I can't believe no one played Dan in the movie.

[Matt_Bernius]

Well the issue was that Linda Lee and Dan has a pretty well known falling out (hence the JKD Nucleus/Concept schism). Linda controlled the production of the movie. So she approved (or suggested) any "artistic" change to history.

As far as I know things are still chilly between the two of them.

- Matt

[Yukimushu]

Oooh, I never realised that :) Is there any particular reason as to why they had a falling out?

Merely curious as to weather it was a difference of opinion in where they should take the organisation, or something similar...

[LS]

unfortunately.. the nucleus is gone ..but the bruce lee foundation has taken its place. as far as dan and linda having a falling out.. I don't think that was the case. Linda invited dan to the first meeting in seattle to discuss the formation of the nucleus. Tim Tackett discussed this in his article in the Bruce Lee Magazine.

[Matt_Bernius]

My understanding is that the idea behind the Nucleus is in part what everything stems back to. That it was just about the time of that meeting where things got chilly. Dan had a somewhat different approach/interpretation of Jeet Kun Do than the Nucleus did. Since my experience with JKD comes from the Insanto side I don't think it's fair for me to try an represent their views. However, after some searching I did come up with this site, which details a bit about the formation of the Nucleus and is their statement about their relationship with Inasanto:
http://www.jkd.com.hk/Eng/Info/Information.htm

But the basic feeling I've always gotten is that there's a chilly (at best) relationship between the Nucleus/Bruce Lee Foundation and the JKD Concepts people. I just recently came across an archived radio interview with Taky Kemura (the only other instructor certified my Bruce Lee). It's interesting to hear the way that Taky talks about Inasanto. There's nothing bad in what he says but something doesn't feel quite right either.

You can find the interview right here (it's well worth a listen):
http://www.kellyworden.com/home/pastshows.html

You know as I type this it occurs to me that Taky was also left out of the story. So Dan wasn't the only person who was exorcised from it. Perhaps it was less intentional than I have thought. At the same time Dan was playing a key role in setting up the Chinatown school (and even appearing in Bruce's films).

More info on the Bruce Lee foundation can be found here:
http://www.bruceleefoundation.com

- Matt

p.s. Nice Kwoon quote in your footer...

[Scaramouch]

Matt, thanks for the link to the radio interview.

Helps clear up some of the issues re JKD vs Jun Fan JKD have been discussed. I liked the comment about MA-ists that cross-train, jumping on the band wagon and saying they incorporate JKD in their training. I guess philosophically its kind of true but as you point out they should really be able to prove their pedigree (i.e. have links back to the source) other than have attended one or two JKD seminars. Otherwise its not strictly JKD, its just cross-training in MAs - have I got it right?

[Matt_Bernius]

Originally posted by Scaramouch
Helps clear up some of the issues re JKD vs Jun Fan JKD have been discussed. I liked the comment about MA-ists that cross-train, jumping on the band wagon and saying they incorporate JKD in their training. I guess philosophically its kind of true but as you point out they should really be able to prove their pedigree (i.e. have links back to the source) other than have attended one or two JKD seminars. Otherwise its not strictly JKD, its just cross-training in MAs - have I got it right? Uh... umm... kinda yes, kinda no. This gets back to schism that I mentioned between the two schools of thought in JKD.

Taky belongs to the school of thought where Jeet Kun Do is typically referred to a Jun Fan Jeet Kun Do. My understanding is their perspective, Jun Fan and Jeet Kun Do go hand in hand. You can't teach one without the other. And both are pretty much defined by the material Bruce created and refined. In other words, Bruce had a complete system at the time of his death. This viewpoint is derived from personal discussions with other martial artists and research on Nucleus publications like:

While it is true that Bruce Lee was constantly searching for a better way ("To utilize all ways be bound by none"), we must, for historical and philosophical reasons, use the term Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do only for the art that Bruce Lee taught. While it is true that he would have continued to grow and explore, we cannot know with infallible certainty what direction this exploration would have taken. Our objective with Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do is simply to remove some of the misconceptions that have arisen over the years concerning what Bruce Lee and his art were about, and to show the world a better picture of what is preserved in his legacy. For the sake of the future of Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do, we must also emphasize that when instructors claim to teach Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do, they will only teach from the body of knowledge attributed to Bruce Lee.

- Taken from the Bruce Lee Magazine, the Official Magazine of the JKD Nucleus archived at: http://epgpfm.fateback.com/concepts/jkdexactly.html
Inasanto, on the other hand, is of the school where Jeet Kun Do is a concept that is applied to your training. He does teach Jun Fan (but, at least on his website and from the seminars of his that I attend) does not refer to it as Jun Fan Jeet Kun Do. Jeet Kun Do is taught in his schools as a philosophy that is layered on top of the Jun Fan classes. That leads back to his quote:

"[Some folks say] I study Aikido, I study jiu-jitsu, I study Karate, I study Tae Kwon Do. I'll put it together and call it Jeet Kune Do. Is it Jeet Kune Do? It's Jeet Kune Do for them. BUT IT IS NOT THE JEET KUNE DO OF BRUCE LEE. The Jeet Kune Do of Bruce Lee has the Jun Fan Gung Fu material in the beginning and then from there they are supposed to grow and expand, that is Jeet Kune Do. And it is different for every individual. So I would say, if you did that; put Karate and Aikido and Tae Kwon Do and maybe wrestling, that could be your Jeet Kune Do, that's correct. But it is not the JKD as devised or created by Bruce Lee. Because when you see he had the Jun Fan which he thought were the basics, important, and then expand and find your own Jeet Kune Do." - Guro Dan InosantoAs I mentioned before, I tend to philosophically agree with Inasanto. Bruce's writing points to the idea that everyone needs to create their own JKD. However, I do agree with Taky in saying that if someone is going to market themselves as "teaching" Bruce Lee's Jeet Kun Do, they should be certified in Jun Fan. I have a feeling that JKD-SD619 is closer to the Nucleus camp an can do a great job representing their view of the world. I'm hoping he'll add his 2 cents (as I've never had the chance to talk directly with people from that camp).

- Matt

[Hannibal]

My greatest fear is that JKD will become yet another "classical mess" if the schism is not healed. Generally, as long as the guys don't slag each other off things are amicable. But if one comment is out of place, or perceived to be so, then stand well back!

Personally I have always fallen on the "concepts" side, although as a good friend of mine once said "I'm too busy training to worry about what I am doing":)

[Matt_Bernius]

Hannibal,

You and I are of the same mind. Actually, Jun Fan, Jeet Kun Do, and Jun Fan Jeet Kun Do are classical messes when it comes to talking about them.

But staring into my crystal ball I'm guessing that in about twenty years the "concepts" camp will be the "prefered" form. The reason is that side usually does fall back to the "I'm too busy training to worry about what I am doing." It always has seemed to me that the Nucleus side tends to debate more and practice less. But that is my uneducated view. I'd love to hear from someone with more experience on that side.

- Matt

[Yukimushu]

One thing ive noticed is, although some people may believe JKD is a style etc, it really doesnt matter...

Because its a concept, as long as i myself have a firm understanding on the concept and how much it can benifit me, it really doesn't matter if mr.joe bloggs learns it and treats it as a system or style because it is his loss for misunderstanding the idea of it.

If that makes any sense :)

[YODA]

Originally posted by Yukimushu
One thing ive noticed is, although some people may believe JKD is a style etc, it really doesnt matter...

Because its a concept, as long as i myself have a firm understanding on the concept and how much it can benifit me, it really doesn't matter if mr.joe bloggs learns it and treats it as a system or style because it is his loss for misunderstanding the idea of it.

If that makes any sense :)


It makes sense.

One thing that puzzles me- if people are keen to do their own thing - why call it JKD? Why do they feel the need to use Bruce Lee's name to justify their own path? The answer is in validation - they feel that attatchment to Bruce Lee's image and name somehow validates what they do. Sad - very sad.

[Hannibal]

One word - respectability.

Few people can say "I do my own thing that works for me" and expect to be taken seriously, simply because there ae so many cowboys out there. That is why JKD, unfortunately, can become a shelter for the "dolly mixture" martial artists out there.

This is another reason I do not claim to be doing JKD - I use JKD concepts to improve my combative ability. I am no where near as fast or gifted as Bruce and I am built completely differently so I cannot punch kick in the same/way. I can appreciate the THEORY behind how he kicks and use that to improve ("Give a man a fish, teach him to fish etc...").

Bruce was not a great grappler, but he knew some. Does that mean I should not train with the likes of the Gracies to improve my grappling? Hell no! Just because Bruce did it does not mean that I should not look at something else that may be better. That is growing. Unfortunately, it does seem that certain elements in the "Original" JKD camp are stuck in the past. So sad. Can they honestly say they are growing as Bruce intended them?

[Tireces]

Originally posted by Matt_Bernius
It always has seemed to me that the Nucleus side tends to debate more and practice less.


Actually, as far as I'm aware, we tend mostly toward the "I'm too busy training" side, too. I can't speak for other schools, but ours is based very, very heavily on training, very little "debate" happens. And all the seminars we've had from those nucleus people were largely training (especially sifu Ted's, I've always like those the most). And we do study kali and gracie jiu jitsu at the school, and the sifu is certified to teach both. We just dont call it Jeet Kune Do when we're practicing it. I've been taught that essentially the JKD concepts approach CAN work just fine, but it can also go horribly wrong. Thats largely in part due to a lot of the "concepts" people for some reason disregarding the "Jun Fan" material (most seem to call it "jun fan gung fu", but as far as I'm aware, that was actually the name given to that particular material in its earlier days, when it looked more like wing chun). The "concepts" part is also regarded as part of what we are doing, just something that takes place at a later stage, when we begin to incorporate things from other martial arts, and it is done on a more personal level, less indoctrined via classes and more up to you what you ultimately take and don't. We also seem to be a bit more focussed in our training, and as a whole more conservative about looking into other arts for what we need. I think that the "concept" of simplifying is lost on some of the "concepts" people. Again, its probably not all of them. In either of the two groups you'll find people with different takes on it. As far as I'm aware, Yoda here is a "concepts" guy, but his take on it doesn't really seem much different than my own. The only thing I could really think of to argue about is that, he calls the original Jun Fan material "Jun Fan Gung Fu", while I would call it "Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do", but thats just not worth an argument at all. So, in short, us "nucleus" guys don't just debate pointlessly and not train.

[Matt_Bernius]

Tireces,

Thanks for the reply! Really. I've always wanted to hear a "Nucleus" perspective on things. And as I review my original post I think I made way to braod of an assumption with the comment you quoted. Where that feeling originates is with some of the high level politics and pronouncements that were going on early on while the Nucleus' forming.

I defintely agree that the "concepts" side can go totally in the wrong direction as well. Anyway, that was a well reasoned post and really helped me to better understand at lease one Nucleus school's approach to the art. Again, sorry for the broad statement (especially since I recently corrected someone else who was doing that in another discussion... "hello pot... it's me, kettle.")

- Matt

[Yukimushu]

Originally posted by YODA
It makes sense.

One thing that puzzles me- if people are keen to do their own thing - why call it JKD? Why do they feel the need to use Bruce Lee's name to justify their own path? The answer is in validation - they feel that attatchment to Bruce Lee's image and name somehow validates what they do. Sad - very sad.

A very good point... I myself believe in the concept, but my style is " jojo trying to hit baddy, but not to get hit himself style " ;) hehe

I dont think it will ever catch on though! *me hides bruise under eye from last night lol*

[LS]

thanks for sharing the 2 cents tireces

[Yukimushu]

Yup! We learned something today thx 2 u :) :)

[tel]

unfortunately.. the nucleus is gone ..but the bruce lee foundation has taken its place. as far as dan and linda having a falling out.. I don't think that was the case. Linda invited dan to the first meeting in seattle to discuss the formation of the nucleus. Tim Tackett discussed this in his article in the Bruce Lee Magazine.
true, he wnt down for first meeting.but flet it was not the way to take jkd, larry hartsell stayed in on dan's behalf.
tho i would say its good it has gone. just the foundation to collapse now

[tel]

i would say experience is not important to starting jkd

[James Kovacich]

I just recently came across an archived radio interview with Taky Kemura (the only other instructor certified my Bruce Lee). ..
Not true. James Lee was certified 3rd Rank in 1964. Thats the same year that Dan Inosanto met Bruce Lee. Jimmy was Dans Senior and Dan called him his JKD big brother. Also Ted Wong was certified 2nd Rank in Jeet Kune Do by Bruce I think in 1967 and there are many who were certified to 1st Rank by Bruce, even Linda Lee. Both Taky and Jimmy were promoted to "high ranks" by Bruce Lee before in the inception of Jeet Kune Do.

Taky Kimura was certified 5th Rank not Jeet Kune Do cert but Jun Fan Gung Fu institute. But when one looks at these certs the dates are close to each other and it makes one wonder why have differant certs it it was all one art. Maybe the Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute was certification for the martial art and the Jeet Kune Do was certification for the concept. :D

Also it is not stated anywhere by Bruce Lee what exactly was the highest rank. 3rd Rank was not, Taky is 5th 5ank. Dan wass in charge but bruce closed the schools. Jimmy kept on teaching in Oakland.

[tel]

just to confirm
taky kimura and james lee highest ranked in jun fan gung fu
dan inosanto ranked in jun fan and highest in jkd

[Len]

Not true. James Lee was certified 3rd Rank in 1964. Thats the same year that Dan Inosanto met Bruce Lee. Jimmy was Dans Senior and Dan called him his JKD big brother. Also Ted Wong was certified 2nd Rank in Jeet Kune Do by Bruce I think in 1967 and there are many who were certified to 1st Rank by Bruce, even Linda Lee. Both Taky and Jimmy were promoted to "high ranks" by Bruce Lee before in the inception of Jeet Kune Do.

Taky Kimura was certified 5th Rank not Jeet Kune Do cert but Jun Fan Gung Fu institute. But when one looks at these certs the dates are close to each other and it makes one wonder why have differant certs it it was all one art. Maybe the Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute was certification for the martial art and the Jeet Kune Do was certification for the concept. :D

Also it is not stated anywhere by Bruce Lee what exactly was the highest rank. 3rd Rank was not, Taky is 5th 5ank. Dan wass in charge but bruce closed the schools. Jimmy kept on teaching in Oakland.
You did a good job finding the certificate for James. You said Ted Wong was certified. Please show me this certificate.

[tel]

You did a good job finding the certificate for James. You said Ted Wong was certified. Please show me this certificate.
he was under lee at level 2 i think.maybe one.but an instructor under inosanto. bet you won't hear him say that,just that he trained with lee

[James Kovacich]

Wongs cert is not as readily available but I have seen it and I'm preet sure Simplicity has seen it. We frequent another forum which had it displayed at one time.

It was a Jeet Kune Do cert and 2nd rank. I "think" Ted has the most "documented" training hours under Bruce Lee.

[James Kovacich]

Wongs cert is not as readily available but I have seen it and I'm pretty sure that Simplicity has seen it too. We frequent another forum which had it displayed at one time.

It was a Jeet Kune Do cert and 2nd rank. I "think" Ted has the most "documented" training hours under Bruce Lee.

[tel]

Wongs cert is not as readily available but I have seen it and I'm pretty sure that Simplicity has seen it too. We frequent another forum which had it displayed at one time.

It was a Jeet Kune Do cert and 2nd rank. I "think" Ted has the most "documented" training hours under Bruce Lee.
wong had most hrs of students for x amount of months,but still not more training hrs than dan in said months

[James Kovacich]

I can't remember exact number but it was something like 2200 hours.

[James Kovacich]

Hers Teds 2nd rank in Jeet Kune Do dated 1967 and signed by Bruce Lee.

[James Kovacich]

Heres Dans 3 certs. If someone can blow them up clearly I would like to know how far apart the dates are.

[James Kovacich]

I think a Jun Fan Gung Fu certificate may be worth more after all Bruce did give a Jeet Kune Do certificate to his movie producer Sterling Siliphant.

"Maybe" it is just a concept and Jun Fan is the art. :D

Maybe Sterling's "Jeet Kune Do" was movie producing. :D

[Len]

Hers Teds 2nd rank in Jeet Kune Do dated 1967 and signed by Bruce Lee.Holy smoke! I was always told Bruce only handed out three certificates....1st rank to Taky, 2nd to James, and 3rd to Dan. I thought everyone outside of these three that ever got a certificate in JKD was through Dan. That threw cold water on my face! LOL

[tel]

Holy smoke! I was always told Bruce only handed out three certificates....1st rank to Taky, 2nd to James, and 3rd to Dan. I thought everyone outside of these three that ever got a certificate in JKD was through Dan. That threw cold water on my face! LOL
taky was 4 or 5th level in jun fan
james lee and dan inosanto 3rd level
jkd dan inosanto 3rd highest

[James Kovacich]

taky is 5th level in jun fan
james lee and dan inosanto 3rd level
jkd dan inosanto 3rd highest

Correct EXCEPT James 3rd rank was earned before Dan was even a member and Ted Wong, based on his certificate would be #2 in JKD.

Now I have an old article, an interview of Dan Inosanto's ( I beleive from the '80's) with a lineage chart which is scanned but is to large to upload. When I resized it, it wasn't readable. I need to crop just the chart (readable) and see if it will upload.

Any way, this is Dans chart and it lists Bruce Lee as the founder of THE SYSTEM. It lists the 3 branches of THE SYSTEM and the heads of the branches as follows.

Taky 1st under JKD, James Lee 1st under Jun Fan and Dan 1st under The Tao of Chinese Gung FU.

And we have to accept the "possibility" of other certificate out there. It is possible that some people just want to be left alone.

[pug32]

Its interesting to read the controversy over the credentials of all who are regardless of those certs great martial artists :)

back to the orignal thread point, i don't think you have to be experience to learn Jun fan but to drop straight into a concepts perspective i think you do. When the original group got together with BL they were experienced martial artist who then started the refining process. too many with no experience try to take this and refine with no skill base. They then reject valid techniques and concepts as "not for them" purely becuase they lack timing, coordination, conditioning or all three. As the nucleus group develop along the jun fan route and the concepts develop along the jun fan with selected other bits there is a logical format to follow.

so,

to train in Jun Fan: no experience needed

to train under a JKD concepts instructor: no experience needed

to start trying to blaze you own trail from no background by attending one class of this and that: going to fail.

[tel]

Correct EXCEPT James 3rd rank was earned before Dan was even a member and Ted Wong, based on his certificate would be #2 in JKD.

Now I have an old article, an interview of Dan Inosanto's ( I beleive from the '80's) with a lineage chart which is scanned but is to large to upload. When I resized it, it wasn't readable. I need to crop just the chart (readable) and see if it will upload.

Any way, this is Dans chart and it lists Bruce Lee as the founder of THE SYSTEM. It lists the 3 branches of THE SYSTEM and the heads of the branches as follows.

Taky 1st under JKD, James Lee 1st under Jun Fan and Dan 1st under The Tao of Chinese Gung FU.

And we have to accept the "possibility" of other certificate out there. It is possible that some people just want to be left alone.
hi akja.
i know what table you are talking about. there was an error dan and taky where supposed to be the other way round. there names are in the wrong box

[James Kovacich]

That would make more sense. Is this the same one. It goes like this.

The Complete
Jeet Kune Do Family Tree

Lineage Provided by Dan Inosanto

Sigung
Bruce Lee
The Founder of the System


Jeet Kune Do Jun Fan Gung Fu The Tao of Chinese Gung Fu

Taky KimuraJames LeeDan Inosanto
Ted Wong


There were no boxes and implies that it is all one system and not 3 systems as Dan has been quoted as saying. And I guess, technically, that would make it "A SYSTEM." :D

[tel]

That would make more sense. Is this the same one. It goes like this.

The Complete
Jeet Kune Do Family Tree

Lineage Provided by Dan Inosanto

Sigung
Bruce Lee
The Founder of the System


Jeet Kune Do Jun Fan Gung Fu The Tao of Chinese Gung Fu

Taky KimuraJames LeeDan Inosanto
Ted Wong


There were no boxes and implies that it is all one system and not 3 systems as Dan has been quoted as saying. And I guess, technically, that would make it "A SYSTEM." :D
yeah thats the one. in one of dan's books.

[James Kovacich]

yeah thats the one. in one of dan's books.

I find it hard to beleive than Dan allowed that mistake to be published in his book. Are you sure that Dan didn't change his mind later?? :D

[tel]

I find it hard to beleive than Dan allowed that mistake to be published in his book. Are you sure that Dan didn't change his mind later?? :D
he didn't have control of the book. there was amistake made, not sure ho but there was. taky kimura didn't do jkd.he did jun fan. taly himself said that in an interview and only just done jkd with inosanto recently there where pics on inosanto's website

[MingTheMerciles]

Since they borrow foot work technique from fencing , so if u have done fencing , u can move easily and also punching technique from western boxing , so u will have a good start when it come to punching technique . But most of the part , they are modification of wing chun .