Playing Catch-up

[Bruce W Sims]

Dear Folks:

Its only fair to start with an apology as I had gotten a bit behind in my projects. So, this month I am making up for any months I have missed in my schedule by providing three (3) clips on the YAHOO Video website. One of the clips is the basic or introductory Staff form which focuses on basic staff handling and footwork. There are an intermediate and advanced form as well. Another of the clips is SA BANG JEOK SAL GEOM BEOP (lit: "Sword Methods Against a Crowd") which is the second-to-last freeform before BON KUK GEOM BEOP which is the last of the SSANGSOODO hyung before the shift to TO and GEOM. Some prefer to do CHOSON SEBEOP with a two-handed sabre and I may include that before moving on to single-handed items albeit as part of a presentation on validation cutting.
Lastly there is a clip on DAN JEON Breathing including the pair of SOMOK BEGI that goes with each breathing method. I thought you might find this interesting since most folks don't usually spend much time teasing-out these wrist escapes for separate consideration.

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/4671349/12486240

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/4671576/12486802

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/4671872/12487551

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Rebel Wado]

Hey Bruce,

Thanks for sharing.

I really like that staff form the most. Of course I'm a sucker for the twirling motions that can be done with the longer weapons. :cool: I think the movements are good and demonstrate good principles.

The second video of the sword forms, I did not like as much. I think for two main reasons I did not like it. (1) The first is some movements where your body is moving first and the sword goes around the body, I was looking more for the weapon moving first and the body going around the weapon. For example, instead of stepping backwards, then turning and cutting, the sword stays where it is at, step forward and turn (go around the sword) and cut. (2) The second is the flow of the movements are sometimes too linear, IMHO. For instance, after downward cut, the movement should transition fluidly into either a reverse cut (turning the blade) or a crescent shaped parry. Such as at -2:05 minutes to the end you cut down at an angle, then at -2:03 minutes you draw the sword back up and pause, then bring the sword up to head height... I would have preferred the drawing the sword up here to be one fluid crescent shaped movement from the ground to the head with no pause in between. To me this is one fluid cut used as a parry or something like the first part of a Shihonage technique in Aikido.

The third video with the breathing looked promising but for some reason I did not have any sound. I think if I could hear the sound with the video I would have really liked it. Without sound the breathing aspects were lost to me.

Again, thanks for sharing.

[Bruce W Sims]

Thanks for the feedback, Rebel.

As I read your thoughts, I was casting around in my mind for some experiential way for you to appreciate what is happening in the form. Since it is a teaching form it will sometimes lack some of the grace of a demonstration or even a training form.

I think the best thing to do would be to take a bit of time and see if you can find the clips offered by the guys down in the weapons area. The ones I am thinking of specifically are those clips where one group of guys are moving against another group (rather than just 1:1). What I think you will notice is that this sort of combat is actually a chain of explosive methods with intermittant moments of quiet worked in there. I know in the movies, for instance, the techniques are always flowing from one encounter to the next as a kind of ballet, if you will.

Also, lest I try to blow smoke up yer pants-leg let me own that part of the "cutting edge" to my own training is not to let my eyes get ahead of the sword. In Korean practice the sword and the eyes are suppose to track simultaneously. For me though, looking ahead of the technique is an ingrained habit from Hapkido. Ooooppps.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Obewan]

Hey bruce I posted on the weapons thread a reply to the vidio's maybe you got a chance to read it, however they did lock it up, I guess they don't like it when things get duplicated.

[Bruce W Sims]

Can't remember right off hand. Did you want to revisit it?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Obewan]

Yes,

Basically I thought that the staff form looked very similar to KSW spear form, WRT the poking and circling of the end of the staff. Also when you turn and strike downward it looks like a part in our spear form where it is interprited that a throwing movement is done, just wanted to get your take on this.

Also I wondered about the difference in sword forms as opposed to Kuk Sool, I don't mean to offend but it seem that the techniques that you are doing are quite basic for a fifth degree level. Just trying to understand if you could bring me up to speed.

Thanks

[Bruce W Sims]

Yes..... regarding the "spear" nature of the staff form, you most certainly will get that sort of sense. Both traditional Chinese and Korean staff tend to give priority to one end of the staff over the other. The Okinawan and Japanese staff as well as European Quarter-staff tend to be bi-modal, using both ends of the staff interchangeably. There is a large number of lazy business people who routinely borrow material from both Okinawan and Japanese and represent it as Korean because they are too pround to take the time to put on a "white belt mind" and learn Korean traditions as they were meant to be promoted.

As far as the 5th Dan requirements, I need to point out, once again, that the YAHOO site is intended for use by the Hapkido community and the basis for comparison is the Hapkido community and not the Korean sword community. In YEON MU KWAN Hapkido, swordwork is tested for at 4th DAN to satisfy requirements for 5th Dan. If someone were studying only sword and not Hapkido the clips are intended for use in satisfying requirements up through the GUEPS to Chodan. This is not to say that any person in the Hapkido community, or any person at all could not study korean sword independent of Hapkido. However, the presentation on YAHOO Video is intended for viewing primarily by Hapkido folks. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Obewan]

Thanks Bruce,

Your right about the Korean staff form using one end primarily. It was to me like your staff form is similar to KS but the sword forms are nothing alike. It just seems piculair to me that two MAs that are related could be so different in certain areas. Thoughts?

P.S. If those vidios were ment only for Hapkido practioners why did you post them on the weapons board? just curious.

[Bruce W Sims]

Thanks Bruce,

Your right about the Korean staff form using one end primarily. It was to me like your staff form is similar to KS but the sword forms are nothing alike. It just seems piculair to me that two MAs that are related could be so different in certain areas. Thoughts?

P.S. If those vidios were ment only for Hapkido practioners why did you post them on the weapons board? just curious.

It seemed that the folks over in the "weapons" area were very curious about Korean sword. Its been my own experience that whenever Koreans start showing their material it never gets taken on its own merit. Rather, various folks will criticize it using some other tradition like Japanese KENJUTSU to assess it.

The problem with the Korean traditions is that there have just been too many cooks with their hands in the stew. For instance, the primary weapon of the typical Korean soldier was the single-edged TO while the scholar and the civil service worker carried a GOM. Right off the bat these are different from the Japanese KATANA. Later the Japanese used a European sabre from about 1873 to about 1939 based on French and Prussian techniques and the Koreans were exposed to this. Later the Japanese reverted to the KATANA for its military in 1939 and the Koreans were exposed to this. In addition the Koreans became pretty fond of Japanese KENDO beginning with the first decade of the 20th Century. See what I mean? WAAAAYYY too many approaches and sword types. What I have been able to find is that the HWARANG GEOM BEOP is 33 methods of sword use that have been identified as common to just about everybody who has learned any kind of swordwork in Korea over the last century. Right now I am in the process of seeing if I can tease-out which methods might have come from which sword practices, but its a pretty daunting task.

As far as the staff material, the answer to your question is pretty much simplicity itself. Both Korean and Western practitioners have been making up and borrowing stuff for so long now most of them have no idea of what real Korean stuff looks like. Some TKD guy will go to a seminar and learn an Okinawan staff technique and then come back to his school and teach it as "Korean". Or some guy will come to the States from Korea and make some stuff up and who's gonna know, right? Its not like a lot of people know a whole lot about Korean practices right? Is any of this helping?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[dortiz]

Bruce,
regarding the sword form and me not having enough understanding on my part, can I ask you to explain the move where you lean way back reaching over slowly.

Thanks,
Dave O.

[Bruce W Sims]

I bet that particular move gets asked about more times than any other.

Most people wonder why a person would perform a thrust in such an odd manner, until we recall that in the form not everyone is armed the same way. In this case, the swords man is snared in some fashion. It might be with a lasso. It also might be with one of a variety of polearms that were designed for the purpose. It could also be a net which did not quite make its mark. In this case the swordsman goes "with" the snare by allowing his sword to elevate and move rearwards over his body. Though the movement starts slowly, it accelerates from the apex of the movement to become a thrust into the offender to the rear. There is an alternate interpretation where the swords man is breaking a hold on his forearm and thrusting to the rear, but I am not a huge fan of this since it would (theoretically) leave a person immediately to one's rear by purposely turning one's back to that person. Probably not the best thing in the world to do. ;-).

BTW: There is another such movement ("Rising Sun") seen half-way through the form as well. I think its important, though somewhat distasteful, to remember that the Koreans often expected to be fighting their own people in uprisings and rebellions. In those cases the farmers might not be fighting with swords but with farm implements in an attempt to ensnare and overwhelm the swordsman. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[dortiz]

Bruce,
you mentioned the sword material was there for the benefit of the HKD requirements. Those forms are not part of the traditional curriculum though or are they now? Where are these forms coming from if not?
Thanks,
Dave O.

[Bruce W Sims]

Thanks, Dave:

In the YON MU KWAN, MYUNG KJN had a variety of sword material. I still see it crop up now and again in various other Hapkido traditions, usually associated one way or another back to JI Han Jae tradition. The problem with this material, however is two-fold.

First the sword material is actually little more than KENDO or KUMDO which Myung trained in his early years. Secondly, when the material is used it seems to always be executed in conjunction with DAN BONG work. The core of the material itself is little more than JUK-TO drills. The nice thing about this, though is that, as MYUNG KJN said, it creates a place to "hang" the the material that one delves into. For myself, I surpassed MYUNG's material very quickly. There just wasn't that much to it. However, as I say, the bit that he taught provided a place to hang further investigation.

Now..... what about the material itself.

So far, the farthest back I can trace the material is to Choson Chaeyukhoe (Choson Athletics Association) which was established in 1920. And, a year later, Mr. Kang Nak-won opened Choson Mudogwan, the country's first private school to teach Kumdo exclusively. As far as I have determined the Korea Hwarang Kumdo Central Assn traces its cadre back to there. The assn's manual identifies 36 Sword methods and 5 disarms and I have been able to identify all of these in the various forms.

But there is a caveat.

Not all of the methods are SSANGSOODO methods. What I mean by this is that I have identified no less than 7 sources of sword material including French and Prussian sabre, Chinese DAO, two kinds of Japanese military sabre, the traditions of the BUTOKUKAI and the earliest vestiges of Japanese Kendo. However, all of these methods are performed with a SSANGSOODO after the fashion of Japanese Occupational swordwork. What this may suggest is that some methods that were originally intended for use with a European-style sabre, may have been "adapted" for use with the Long Sword. There are some rather tight, nuanced moves in the forms which are not evident in much of the Japanese KATANA work or the Chinese MIAO DAO material, so this is going to take some sorting out. Is any of this helping? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[dortiz]

So it sounds like these are forms you have created based on the above mentioned materials. Placing specific techniques in taken from X style or influence based on seeing it in various other forms to construct a proper use.

Yes?

With Myung gone that makes sense. How does your current sword instructor feel or even play in to helping you with the projects?

Thanks Bruce,

Dave O.

[Bruce W Sims]

So it sounds like these are forms you have created based on the above mentioned materials. Placing specific techniques in taken from X style or influence based on seeing it in various other forms to construct a proper use.

Yes?

With Myung gone that makes sense. How does your current sword instructor feel or even play in to helping you with the projects?

Thanks Bruce,

Dave O.

Absolutely, completely wrong!!!!

I didn't make-up anything. I didn't construct anything. All I have done is worked to get the forms recorded and analyzed. The forms are as they were passed to me from my teacher, who learned them from HIS teacher etc etc etc. What I saw happening at the school I attended was that the real "money-maker" was KUMDO and its competitive events. Even on THAT side of the house an instructor had to drag those kids, kicking and screaming, to get them to study their single and two-person forms.

It took me months to finally get my teacher to begin teaching me GEOM BEOP. What made it worse was that people from the other side saw what I was doing and thought it was "cool" until they realized that its not as easy to learn as it seemed. Then they would drop out. But each time it happened we had to start from the beginning again to get them up to speed. Same goes for cutting targets with various techniques. I don't even want to think about what Koo KJN has probably forgotten over the years that I will never get to learn.

And what really pisses me off is that there are practically no Koreans who are doing anything about the loss of such material. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Obewan]

It seemed that the folks over in the "weapons" area were very curious about Korean sword. Its been my own experience that whenever Koreans start showing their material it never gets taken on its own merit. Rather, various folks will criticize it using some other tradition like Japanese KENJUTSU to assess it.

The problem with the Korean traditions is that there have just been too many cooks with their hands in the stew. For instance, the primary weapon of the typical Korean soldier was the single-edged TO while the scholar and the civil service worker carried a GOM. Right off the bat these are different from the Japanese KATANA. Later the Japanese used a European sabre from about 1873 to about 1939 based on French and Prussian techniques and the Koreans were exposed to this. Later the Japanese reverted to the KATANA for its military in 1939 and the Koreans were exposed to this. In addition the Koreans became pretty fond of Japanese KENDO beginning with the first decade of the 20th Century. See what I mean? WAAAAYYY too many approaches and sword types. What I have been able to find is that the HWARANG GEOM BEOP is 33 methods of sword use that have been identified as common to just about everybody who has learned any kind of swordwork in Korea over the last century. Right now I am in the process of seeing if I can tease-out which methods might have come from which sword practices, but its a pretty daunting task.

As far as the staff material, the answer to your question is pretty much simplicity itself. Both Korean and Western practitioners have been making up and borrowing stuff for so long now most of them have no idea of what real Korean stuff looks like. Some TKD guy will go to a seminar and learn an Okinawan staff technique and then come back to his school and teach it as "Korean". Or some guy will come to the States from Korea and make some stuff up and who's gonna know, right? Its not like a lot of people know a whole lot about Korean practices right? Is any of this helping?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Sorry to have abandoned the thread for so long, I have been traveling and busy with things unrelated to MA. And have only been able to post haphazardly to threads on KSW form.

I went to a web site of the Korean war museums and looking at the examples of swords in those collections, There seems that there are many different types of swords that were used for example swords that look like Chinese Tae che swords, and Japanese Katana type swords.

What I remember being in a discussion or reading somewhere is that swords were manufactured for the individual that was it going to belong to and designed specifically for that individual. Sort of like a custom pistol or target gun being produced today. Any thoughts on that?

[Bruce W Sims]

I think this is one area of MA development that drives people to absolute distraction, Obewan, and its a tough thing to control for. What I am speaking of is the idiosyncratic aspect of MA development.

A lot of times traditions such as those of the Japanese RYU system get a lot of press. The "mother's milk" of that system is that each generation hands off the practice to the next generation "unchanged". Still, we have stories of practitioners going from school to school to "test" their skills. Sometimes their skills are found lacking and the practitioner asked to be a student at the new school. What we never here about is what happens to the nature of the persons practice as a result. Ques: What did the person pass on to the next generation - his first practice, or his practice after exposure to the second school?

I think the Korean traditions were actually as varied as the sword a person chose to carry. I'm thinking that a person probably learned some basic TO or GEOM material and then shaped that material for the sort of sword he intended to carry. That sword would reflect his stature, status and occupation. In this way its a lot like Hapkido.

In the Hapkido arts a person may be exposed to a couple hundred techniques, but will become very facile in using about 15 or so. These are "his" techniques and I think the Korean swordsman probably worked the same way. In learning Korean sword I've been exposed to a lot of material, but for a given application or intent there are only about 3-4 that might be used. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce