[Capoeira] Cross Training in Capoeira

[Baqueta]

As with all arts, capoeira has its strengths and weaknesses. Since I started martial arts with a strong JKD standpoint, I try to analyze what these characteristics of styles are and try to make my own personal style out of it. I believe that to be complete in Capoeira you should train in what you find weak in it and in yourself. But most capoeiristas are close minded to other martial arts. Usually the only capoeira people I talk to that have a similar viewpoint are my instructor (for some unknown reason he's really smart in other arts, though he's only done capoeira) and people with a history in other martial arts before. I think a reason for this is that the old mestres got stuck in sole traditionalism and past it down to their students. I find this trend alot by reading stories and articles about capoeira in the mid 1900's. Since the Regional style was frequented by alot of teenagers in Brazil, they in turn borrowed influences from eastern martial arts, mainly the routines and methods of Karate, Judo, and Jujitsu.
Anyhow, when choosing an art to cross train with capoeira, I would choose something that involves more grappling and throwing. So I think two good styles to mix it with would be Aikido and Brazilian jujitsu. Aikido for the throws and locks, and jujitsu for the ground work. Notice that I used either a soft style (aikido) or a predominately grappling style (Jujitsu) to mix with capoeira, because capoeira is a predominantly striking and kicking art, but has a good number of throws in it too (that not a lot of untrained people see). Also, when a capoeirista has become a little bit more advanced and wants to test out his skill, I would suggest taking muay thai or kickboxing to get a better look at what's out there and what he would need to work on to make himself as a capoeirista better in the fighting aspect of the art. I steered away from Tae Kwon Do, Kung fu, and karate because their methodologies almost completely contradict that of capoeira's. But a capoeirista should study them a bit to have a sound knowledge of what else is out there. This isn't to say that capoeira's better or worse than any other martial art out there. It doesn't matter if a person takes capoeira, kung fu, hapkido, or whatever art. As long as he has a clear site of what he wants to achieve with his training, he'll be fine.

there are my two cents

[Munners]

Hey Baqueta, thanks for your information. I am training in Aikido and was interested in trying another art for interest. Capoeira seems to be very different from Aikido, which is one of the appeals for me. Something like TKD or JKD also interests me, but seems to clash with Aikido.

Did you find that Aikido clashed with Capoeira at all?

[Baqueta]

You would think that Aikido would clash with Capoeira because they are so different in form, but in all reality you can use what you learned in Aikido very well with what you learned in capoeira because the way capoeira moves leaves the option for the capoeirista to use an Aikido movement.

[totality]

hmm...aikido and capoeira...now that's crosstraining! i expect to see you in ufc within the year, mate. :D

[Baqueta]

yep

[totality]

hey, to each their own, my friend...

[valetudo74]

Capoeira schools here in the United States don't train with the same mindset as the schools in Brazil. Schools in Brazil often train Vale Tudo, combining Capoeira, Muay Thai, BJJ, Judo, and Boxing. Those are the authentic Capoeira schools, because they balance the cultural aspects of Capoeira with the fighting aspects of Capoeira and cross training.

[Guy Mendiola]

IMO, a grappling art should be crosstrained with Capoeira instead of Aikido being crosstrained with Capoeira or Capoeira mixed with another striking art maybe like Boxing.

[Baqueta]

okay. good opinion. some things work for you, while this has worked for me.

[M3inline6]

Capoeira schools here in the United States don't train with the same mindset as the schools in Brazil. Schools in Brazil often train Vale Tudo, combining Capoeira, Muay Thai, BJJ, Judo, and Boxing. Those are the authentic Capoeira schools, because they balance the cultural aspects of Capoeira with the fighting aspects of Capoeira and cross training.

It all depends on your mestre. My mestre is all about the fight (while balancing language and the instruments). He teaches some grapples and throws. Most higher level Capoeiristas can throw, or counter a throw.

[Guy Mendiola]

Is there a real Capoeira technique where the Capoeirista flips forward and grabs the opponent's head and throws them?, I saw this on a Capoeira game which was on a Capoeira website.

[M3inline6]

Is there a real Capoeira technique where the Capoeirista flips forward and grabs the opponent's head and throws them?, I saw this on a Capoeira game which was on a Capoeira website.


It's probably a variation of one of the throws from Cintura Desprezada. When we went to the Batizado 2004 (Mestre' Parafina) this past Saturday, they did a throwing demonstration. There was a throw that looked very similar to what you're describing. See my pics:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=147607

[Guy Mendiola]

Hey,thanks for the information and great pictures and that cool Capoeira video in your signature, You must be a real BMW fanatic. :D

[valetudo74]

Guy:

If you're asking about the technique that Eddy Gordo does on Tekken, our group had a Mestre come to our Batizado and perform the headscissor move similar to what Eddy does. He did it to one of our higher cords during his promotion to Yellow Cord. It left everyone in shock when he did it; no one expected it.

As far as Cintura Desprezada, it's a training technique used to teach Capoeiristas how to land on their feet if they're caught in hip toss from someone experienced in grappling. One person grabs the another by the waist and performs a hip toss. The person being thrown lands on their feet, and simultaneously performs the throw on their partner. This goes back to Mestre Bimba. It was one of the training techniques he taught, alongside his 8 Sequencias, which are sequences of moves used to demonstrate Capoeira's basic techniques.

[valetudo74]

It all depends on your mestre. My mestre is all about the fight (while balancing language and the instruments). He teaches some grapples and throws. Most higher level Capoeiristas can throw, or counter a throw.

Wish there were more Mestres like yours in our area!

One of my friends Batuque, Instrutor Versatil, likes to teach combative aspects of the art alongside the cultural aspects. But you are right, it really depends on the Mestre. In fact, I was going to ask you if that was Versatil from Capoeira Batuque in your pics? it also looks like Girafa from Batuque, and Indio from Capoeira Mandinga are there as well.

I'd heard a few of Mestre Marcelo's original students left Mandinga and went to Cordao de Ouro under Mestre Suassuna because of some disagreements. That was a pretty huge thing because most of them had trained under Mestre Caveirinha since they were young.

[M3inline6]

Hey,thanks for the information and great pictures and that cool Capoeira video in your signature, You must be a real BMW fanatic. :D

No problem! I'm as much a BMW fanatic as I am a Capoeira fanatic. I can honestly say that Capoeira is starting to totally engulf me though. :D So much in fact that I haven't modded my M3 since I bought it December 2002!

That Capoeira video is one of my favorites. I love the background music, along w/ the smoothness of the movements. I watch it once a day minimum!

ValeTudo, thanks for the compliments on my mestre. I tell you bro, I'm so proud to be under him. I feel like what I'm learning from him can actually be a worthy street application. Also, the fact that he stresses the language, instruments, etc. as part of the criteria for progressing from cord to cord interjects his belief in honoring Capoeira in it's totality. I completely admire that in him.

[valetudo74]

No problem! I'm as much a BMW fanatic as I am a Capoeira fanatic. I can honestly say that Capoeira is starting to totally engulf me though. :D So much in fact that I haven't modded my M3 since I bought it December 2002!

That Capoeira video is one of my favorites. I love the background music, along w/ the smoothness of the movements. I watch it once a day minimum!

ValeTudo, thanks for the compliments on my mestre. I tell you bro, I'm so proud to be under him. I feel like what I'm learning from him can actually be a worthy street application. Also, the fact that he stresses the language, instruments, etc. as part of the criteria for progressing from cord to cord interjects his belief in honoring Capoeira in it's totality. I completely admire that in him.

where's your school at? i'd like to drop in for a visit one night and check it out!

[M3inline6]

where's your school at? i'd like to drop in for a visit one night and check it out!

The main school is in Santa Monica at a dance studio. I usually frequent the Santa Monica location once a month. I attend the smaller classes at the Claremont Colleges 90% of the time.

www.capoeirabesouro.com will have a schedule of all the classes he teaches. You might want to drop in during the day. I'd assume that those are his largest classes.

[valetudo74]

The main school is in Santa Monica at a dance studio. I usually frequent the Santa Monica location once a month. I attend the smaller classes at the Claremont Colleges 90% of the time.

www.capoeirabesouro.com will have a schedule of all the classes he teaches. You might want to drop in during the day. I'd assume that those are his largest classes.

Sounds good. I may start working up in Los Angeles area, so that would be right up my alley. I'm in Orange Co. right now, but I'm hesitant to get into anything until I find out if some job leads take me up to L.A.

[Guy Mendiola]

Hey M3Inline6, I was wondering if you ever got into a fight on the streets?, because I want to know a Capoeirista's point of view on defending themselves on the street.

[M3inline6]

Sounds good. I may start working up in Los Angeles area, so that would be right up my alley. I'm in Orange Co. right now, but I'm hesitant to get into anything until I find out if some job leads take me up to L.A.

If you want to stay w/ a good group in O.C., try Capoeira Centrosul at UCR. Gui runs that group, and they are pretty damn good. They have really smooth technique, and I've been pretty impressed w/ a large amount of their players.


Hey M3Inline6, I was wondering if you ever got into a fight on the streets?, because I want to know a Capoeirista's point of view on defending themselves on the street.

I haven't had to fight seriously using Capoeira. What I have noticed during more "playful" sparring matches w/ friends who study other forms is the level of evasion that is available to me. Capoeira has totally clashed w/ my previous Hwa-Rang-do training in the respect that Capoeiristas don't block. Everything is based on avoidance and countering. At one point I tried to "switch" to my Hwa-Rang-do movements, and by instinct, I was still doing esquiva, negativa, etc. instead of the normal blocks from my previous art. I think that on the street, my advantage is my ability to keep myself out of someone's direct line of attack. If I were to get into an altercation today, I doubt that I'd use the full range of Capoeira movements that I know at this point in my training. I don't feel that I'm proficient enough to use it effectively. I do feel that some of the movements would come out instinctively though.........like certain cabecada movements, esquiva and martelo. I doubt I'd use the ginga on the street at this point in time. In a heated battle, Hwa-Rang-Do would show it's true colors in terms of strikes and kicks because that's my base. Given more time, Capoeira will completely engulf me........!

[Baqueta]

i've used capoeira in fights before though.

[M3inline6]

i've used capoeira in fights before though.

How well did you fare? Which applications did you use? How long have you been a Capoeirista?

[valetudo74]

[QUOTE=M3inline6]If you want to stay w/ a good group in O.C., try Capoeira Centrosul at UCR. Gui runs that group, and they are pretty damn good. They have really smooth technique, and I've been pretty impressed w/ a large amount of their players.

I'm actually one of Gui's former students of 5 years. I started with him from the beginning down in San Clemente, then moved with him up to Long Beach/Huntington Beach. He does have a huge student base, and I'm very proud of him for achieving so much within the past few years. With that said, the basis of everything I have learned stems from him: technique, flow, expression, etc.

One thing I do like about him is that he isn't overbearing about us training or visiting with other schools. He always admonishes his students to train with respect, especially when visiting another academia. Other Mestre/Professors do not want their students training w/other groups; I don't know if they think that other styles will "pollute" their students, but it's very odd. We have rodas on Sundays at Huntington Beach Pier, and they are always energetic. I haven't trained with the group in about a year due to the fact I'm training in BJJ right now.

I may be moving up to the L.A. area soon depending on job situations, so that's why I was inquiring about Mestre Batata's classes.

Axe,

VT

[M3inline6]

[QUOTE=M3inline6]If you want to stay w/ a good group in O.C., try Capoeira Centrosul at UCR. Gui runs that group, and they are pretty damn good. They have really smooth technique, and I've been pretty impressed w/ a large amount of their players.

I'm actually one of Gui's former students of 5 years. I started with him from the beginning down in San Clemente, then moved with him up to Long Beach/Huntington Beach. He does have a huge student base, and I'm very proud of him for achieving so much within the past few years. With that said, the basis of everything I have learned stems from him: technique, flow, expression, etc.

One thing I do like about him is that he isn't overbearing about us training or visiting with other schools. He always admonishes his students to train with respect, especially when visiting another academia. Other Mestre/Professors do not want their students training w/other groups; I don't know if they think that other styles will "pollute" their students, but it's very odd. We have rodas on Sundays at Huntington Beach Pier, and they are always energetic. I haven't trained with the group in about a year due to the fact I'm training in BJJ right now.

I may be moving up to the L.A. area soon depending on job situations, so that's why I was inquiring about Mestre Batata's classes.

Axe,

VT

You've been training alot longer than I, so I'm sure you're rather proficient.....especially coming from under Gui. How do you like your BJJ training as opposed to your Capoeira training? Pros? Cons?

[Baqueta]

How well did you fare? Which applications did you use? How long have you been a Capoeirista?

Sorry for the brief quote on that one. I was at school and was busy, so I couldn't really give more than that, even though I've wanted to.

It should be noted that this wasn't just one fight. How well did I fare? They were all pretty short, but I guess you could say I did pretty well. I won't give any details, though. :D Which applications did I use? The application of malandragem, mostly. On a technical level capoeira is no different than any other martial art (basic kicks and strikes wise-- pretty much every martial art will have those things), so I can't really say that I used "martelo here" or "godeme right there". That wasn't the important part. It is how I used them that made the difference. It came down to instinct there and what I was comfortable with. But what I was comfortable with was capoeira. I didn't start doing a ginga though, because at those moments it would have been pretty useless (being that most of the serious "non-sparring" matches I have had are less than thirty secs). But the ginga did help me evade some good headshots and such, but I didn't stick to it. Most of my fights end with either the other guy getting a bloody nose, on the ground with some limb in an awkward position, or with their neck being restrained (good 'ol jujistu days).

Now when I actually spar on purpose with fellow martial artists, I usually start off in a ginga. Usuually is the magic word. If it's a person I'm familiar with I'll start off probably in a JKD stance and switch to the ginga afterwards, just to throw them off.

How long have I been a capoeirista? Weird question being that I started learning before I was getting taught. hehe. But officially, a bit over a year. Been a martial artist for a while, though.

[M3inline6]

Sorry for the brief quote on that one. I was at school and was busy, so I couldn't really give more than that, even though I've wanted to.

It should be noted that this wasn't just one fight. How well did I fare? They were all pretty short, but I guess you could say I did pretty well. I won't give any details, though. :D Which applications did I use? The application of malandragem, mostly. On a technical level capoeira is no different than any other martial art (basic kicks and strikes wise-- pretty much every martial art will have those things), so I can't really say that I used "martelo here" or "godeme right there". That wasn't the important part. It is how I used them that made the difference. It came down to instinct there and what I was comfortable with. But what I was comfortable with was capoeira. I didn't start doing a ginga though, because at those moments it would have been pretty useless (being that most of the serious "non-sparring" matches I have had are less than thirty secs). But the ginga did help me evade some good headshots and such, but I didn't stick to it. Most of my fights end with either the other guy getting a bloody nose, on the ground with some limb in an awkward position, or with their neck being restrained (good 'ol jujistu days).

Now when I actually spar on purpose with fellow martial artists, I usually start off in a ginga. Usuually is the magic word. If it's a person I'm familiar with I'll start off probably in a JKD stance and switch to the ginga afterwards, just to throw them off.

How long have I been a capoeirista? Weird question being that I started learning before I was getting taught. hehe. But officially, a bit over a year. Been a martial artist for a while, though.

Thanks for the reply Baqueta! I appreciate the insight that you offered. :cool:

[planetcapoeira]

You know, as far as I'm concerned capoeira gives me 99% of the tools I need to defend myself? I cringe when I see people say "I do capoeira. But for the fighting stuff I crosstrain in (fill in blank) Muay Thai/JKD/Jiu-Jitsu". I mean, c'mon guys, capoeira has everything you need, with the exception of ground submissions really...It's in how you train. If you want capoeira to give you a good set of fighting tools, you have to train that way. Practice 200 martelos to a heavy bag, different heights, set ups, etc. Repeat with ponteira, chapa, etc..Work your hands, etc..it's all there, why go outside the system to prove fighting legitimacy? It always bugs me...We have bandas, rasteiras, headbutts, knees...so many things!!

And also, the limited idea of what "ginga" is. People get locked into thinking the Ginga is this little trinagular step or motion. NO way man! The ginga is everything you do in capoeira. It's your movement, your head fakes, your set ups, where you pass around the other person, moving up and down, around... You should be able to ginga when you stand still :) (that's like a zen koan there - what does a ginga look like when you aren't moving!)

I mean if you think the ginga is just this triangular little dance step - you'd never use it in a fight!! Too dangerous, too predictable. But I see that's what other martial artists assume we're going to do, and too many inexperienced capoeiristas go ahead and do that..stand in front and do the basic ginga step back and forth straight! They're lucky cause most other martial artists don;t know how to fight either and don't have the experience to know how to deal with it. But a good fighter, and experienced fighter will rip you apart if you stand in front of him and "ginga" .C'mon guys!! This isn't a good use of your ginga!!

And no one talks about the real power that we get from capoeira training - awareness, sensitivity and street smarts. Yes, street smarts. This is where capoeira comes from, and the roda is a learning tool for this. How you approach the game, how you try to figure out the other players intentions, how someone is - are they aggressive, are they showing off fancy moves, or being violent to express their egos? Are they trying to create a good game and have dialogue in the roda? You must learn to read people..and this has real world significance. Fighting for "real" isn't about two guys squaring off comparing tools and techniques. Fighting is me walking down the street and me seeing some shady guy standing by my car. Do I walk over there? Do I walk down the opposite side of the street and suss the guy out? Of course I do! ANd when I see he's not leaving and he's harassing people as they walk by or something, well, then I have to prepare my game...I walk over smiling, hands out, aware of my movements, making sure I have a solid base (what's the ground look like, is it icy? glass on it? loose dirt?) I watch - does he approach me, does he try to talk to me? Is he smiling or being aggressive (either could be dangerous - just like the roda!)..all of this is the fight..now, I'll probably get into my car safely and drive away 99% of the time. But these are things you have to look for, and all this awareness comes from your capoeira training. Not - "Oh I'll walk over and give that guy a martelo!!"

You have to use everything in the capoeira game - it's all there to make you a formidable and AWARE fighter...

[M3inline6]

You know, as far as I'm concerned capoeira gives me 99% of the tools I need to defend myself? I cringe when I see people say "I do capoeira. But for the fighting stuff I crosstrain in (fill in blank) Muay Thai/JKD/Jiu-Jitsu". I mean, c'mon guys, capoeira has everything you need, with the exception of ground submissions really...It's in how you train. If you want capoeira to give you a good set of fighting tools, you have to train that way. Practice 200 martelos to a heavy bag, different heights, set ups, etc. Repeat with ponteira, chapa, etc..Work your hands, etc..it's all there, why go outside the system to prove fighting legitimacy? It always bugs me...We have bandas, rasteiras, headbutts, knees...so many things!!

And also, the limited idea of what "ginga" is. People get locked into thinking the Ginga is this little trinagular step or motion. NO way man! The ginga is everything you do in capoeira. It's your movement, your head fakes, your set ups, where you pass around the other person, moving up and down, around... You should be able to ginga when you stand still :) (that's like a zen koan there - what does a ginga look like when you aren't moving!)

I mean if you think the ginga is just this triangular little dance step - you'd never use it in a fight!! Too dangerous, too predictable. But I see that's what other martial artists assume we're going to do, and too many inexperienced capoeiristas go ahead and do that..stand in front and do the basic ginga step back and forth straight! They're lucky cause most other martial artists don;t know how to fight either and don't have the experience to know how to deal with it. But a good fighter, and experienced fighter will rip you apart if you stand in front of him and "ginga" .C'mon guys!! This isn't a good use of your ginga!!

And no one talks about the real power that we get from capoeira training - awareness, sensitivity and street smarts. Yes, street smarts. This is where capoeira comes from, and the roda is a learning tool for this. How you approach the game, how you try to figure out the other players intentions, how someone is - are they aggressive, are they showing off fancy moves, or being violent to express their egos? Are they trying to create a good game and have dialogue in the roda? You must learn to read people..and this has real world significance. Fighting for "real" isn't about two guys squaring off comparing tools and techniques. Fighting is me walking down the street and me seeing some shady guy standing by my car. Do I walk over there? Do I walk down the opposite side of the street and suss the guy out? Of course I do! ANd when I see he's not leaving and he's harassing people as they walk by or something, well, then I have to prepare my game...I walk over smiling, hands out, aware of my movements, making sure I have a solid base (what's the ground look like, is it icy? glass on it? loose dirt?) I watch - does he approach me, does he try to talk to me? Is he smiling or being aggressive (either could be dangerous - just like the roda!)..all of this is the fight..now, I'll probably get into my car safely and drive away 99% of the time. But these are things you have to look for, and all this awareness comes from your capoeira training. Not - "Oh I'll walk over and give that guy a martelo!!"

You have to use everything in the capoeira game - it's all there to make you a formidable and AWARE fighter...

I totally agree w/ this post, and it's a very accurate representation of Capoeira. It is said that you can often tell the level of the Capoeirista by there rasteira and ginga. Not in terms of cord, but in terms of improvisational skills. I always add variety to my ginga via hops, added foot steps, head sways, etc...... especially when the toque is aggressive. I also agree with the statement regarding the fact that your training regimen will dictate how effective you are at the use of Capoeira ......as w/ any art! The practitioner makes the art. I do wish Capoeira had a bit of submission training, but that's neither here nor there. I am aware that alot of Brazilian Capoeiristas do know how to grapple!

I also liked your depiction of the common street situation. It's funny that prior to Capoeira, I never truly paid any attention to the surface of the street/asphalt/etc. Now, I find myself always surveying the ground and asking myself,"If I had to quickly evade an attack, would I cut myself or be off balance due to the slant in the street? What kind of space constraints am I currently susceptible to? etc. etc." I do think that Capoeira does increase a certain aspect of your street awareness. You tend to "watch" everybody. When you're a Capoeirista, you're a trickster........so, you have to watch out for other types of trickery. In the end, Capoeira is still largely misunderstood........and in all actuality, that is fine by me. I'd rather Capoeira remain as esoteric as possible.

[valetudo74]

Pros about Capoeira:

Unique art; there is simply nothing like it. It teaches you "malicia," or "street smarts/awareness" of your surroundings through experience in the roda. This is one of the most important aspects of the art IMO. It teaches you how to accept an attack, flow with it, and counter attack all in the same motion. It doesn't rely on blocking or force meeting force unless an attack is commenced in such an instance where you have no choice but to block it. You learn about the Brazilian culture through music, singing, history of the art, dance and belonging to huge a community of Capoeiristas. You get to learn an effective fighting form (when taught in the proper context) that has freed slaves from their oppresors and continues to be taught to this day.

Cons about Capoeira:

The misconception that the art is merely a dance or acrobatics. The exposure of the back during certain techniques. The lack of true Regional instructors who provide students with a real look at how Regional is to be trained and taught. The over-emphasis on acrobatics performed in the roda per Capoeira Contemporanea. Serious lack of weapons defense/street defense training taught, which were created by Mestre Bimba. Close-mindedness of practitioners to only rely upon this art as a means of self-defense.

Pros about BJJ:

One of the most effective and practical fighting arts in the world today. Teaches the art in a realistic setting by providing training against an opponent utilizing 100% resistance. Teaches not only sport applications, but street applications for self-defense as well (against single, multiple attackers and weapons). Similar to Capoeira, BJJ'ers learn to flow with an attack, chain their attacks/counterattacks together, and use that to their advantage.

Cons about BJJ:

Training mainly focuses upon single opponents, not mulitiple. Over-emphasis of most schools to teach sport jiu jitsu. Close-mindedness of some practitioners, and only rely on BJJ as their means of defense. Lack of education in Brazilian culture unless you travel to Brazil or have a Brazilian instructor willing to teach you about their culture.

IMO, it really doesn't boil down to just one or two arts having pros/cons; every art has their weaknesses. I know many Capoeiristas who are of the mindset that Capoeira is all you will ever need. The same holds true for BJJ, and practically any other art. While I respect peoples' opinions of their art, I personally don't believe that any one art is all you will ever need. Some people may feel that they can sufficiently use a single art as a means of protection in any situation; I don't.

How is a Capoeirista or BJJ student going to know how to use certain self-preservation tech.'s against, let's say, a weapon? By training tech.'s used to defend against such a weapon, and further, learning how that weapon works. Knowing how a weapon is used is just as important as knowing how to defend against it. Personally, I have never seen a Capoeira class strictly devoted to teaching self-defense. All I have ever seen are tech.'s taught for the roda, samba de roda, maculele training, and workshops dedicated to these areas only. Never once have I seen anything to do with learning how to use the tech.'s in a self-defense situation.

There is an old argument that the self-defense tech.'s in Capoeira are hidden within the roda; students have to discover those for themselves and learn to adapt them to a street situation. Sorry, but I call ******** on that. You cannot effectively learn how to adapt your training from merely no contact/some contact in the roda to self-defense training unless you actually incorporate self-defense training into your curriculum. The sad thing is, all these young, new Capoeira students flood into classes in search of the next big hype in MA's, and Capoeira, with all it's acrobatics and performance based training, fits the bill.

People don't want to learn how to effectively defend themselves anymore; they want Hollywood-esque type arts that they see in the movies that look beautiful. Sorry, but this is why Capoeira receives such negative commentary from the mixed martial arts community; not just the Muay Thai/BJJ guys, but even people who train and teach reality-based arts. The over-emphasis of acrobatics in the roda has been widely publicized, and its notariety is the downfall for our art. What happened to what Bimba taught? It's been watered down into a "contemporary" form that forsakes his teachings and brings with it the glitz and glamour that people want to see; not the realistic forms of self-defense that Bimba busted his ass to create; through Vale Tudo matches and experience he himself drew upon. He himself brought in aspects of other arts to make Luta Regional Baiana a more realistic form of art that could be used to defend one's person, while still teaching the traditions of the art.

To conclude, I will defend Capoeira's effectiveness as a fighting art everyday, all day. I will also concede to its weaknesses. I believe in Capoeira's effectiveness very much, but just because I choose to cross-train does not mean I think any less of the art. While others may not share the same sentiments as me, this is simply my opinion.

[M3inline6]

Pros about Capoeira:

Unique art; there is simply nothing like it. It teaches you "malicia," or "street smarts/awareness" of your surroundings through experience in the roda. This is one of the most important aspects of the art IMO. It teaches you how to accept an attack, flow with it, and counter attack all in the same motion. It doesn't rely on blocking or force meeting force unless an attack is commenced in such an instance where you have no choice but to block it. You learn about the Brazilian culture through music, singing, history of the art, dance and belonging to huge a community of Capoeiristas. You get to learn an effective fighting form (when taught in the proper context) that has freed slaves from their oppresors and continues to be taught to this day.

Cons about Capoeira:

The misconception that the art is merely a dance or acrobatics. The exposure of the back during certain techniques. The lack of true Regional instructors who provide students with a real look at how Regional is to be trained and taught. The over-emphasis on acrobatics performed in the roda per Capoeira Contemporanea. Serious lack of weapons defense/street defense training taught, which were created by Mestre Bimba. Close-mindedness of practitioners to only rely upon this art as a means of self-defense.

Pros about BJJ:

One of the most effective and practical fighting arts in the world today. Teaches the art in a realistic setting by providing training against an opponent utilizing 100% resistance. Teaches not only sport applications, but street applications for self-defense as well (against single, multiple attackers and weapons). Similar to Capoeira, BJJ'ers learn to flow with an attack, chain their attacks/counterattacks together, and use that to their advantage.

Cons about BJJ:

Training mainly focuses upon single opponents, not mulitiple. Over-emphasis of most schools to teach sport jiu jitsu. Close-mindedness of some practitioners, and only rely on BJJ as their means of defense. Lack of education in Brazilian culture unless you travel to Brazil or have a Brazilian instructor willing to teach you about their culture.

IMO, it really doesn't boil down to just one or two arts having pros/cons; every art has their weaknesses. I know many Capoeiristas who are of the mindset that Capoeira is all you will ever need. The same holds true for BJJ, and practically any other art. While I respect peoples' opinions of their art, I personally don't believe that any one art is all you will ever need. Some people may feel that they can sufficiently use a single art as a means of protection in any situation; I don't.

How is a Capoeirista or BJJ student going to know how to use certain self-preservation tech.'s against, let's say, a weapon? By training tech.'s used to defend against such a weapon, and further, learning how that weapon works. Knowing how a weapon is used is just as important as knowing how to defend against it. Personally, I have never seen a Capoeira class strictly devoted to teaching self-defense. All I have ever seen are tech.'s taught for the roda, samba de roda, maculele training, and workshops dedicated to these areas only. Never once have I seen anything to do with learning how to use the tech.'s in a self-defense situation.

There is an old argument that the self-defense tech.'s in Capoeira are hidden within the roda; students have to discover those for themselves and learn to adapt them to a street situation. Sorry, but I call ******** on that. You cannot effectively learn how to adapt your training from merely no contact/some contact in the roda to self-defense training unless you actually incorporate self-defense training into your curriculum. The sad thing is, all these young, new Capoeira students flood into classes in search of the next big hype in MA's, and Capoeira, with all it's acrobatics and performance based training, fits the bill.

People don't want to learn how to effectively defend themselves anymore; they want Hollywood-esque type arts that they see in the movies that look beautiful. Sorry, but this is why Capoeira receives such negative commentary from the mixed martial arts community; not just the Muay Thai/BJJ guys, but even people who train and teach reality-based arts. The over-emphasis of acrobatics in the roda has been widely publicized, and its notariety is the downfall for our art. What happened to what Bimba taught? It's been watered down into a "contemporary" form that forsakes his teachings and brings with it the glitz and glamour that people want to see; not the realistic forms of self-defense that Bimba busted his ass to create; through Vale Tudo matches and experience he himself drew upon. He himself brought in aspects of other arts to make Luta Regional Baiana a more realistic form of art that could be used to defend one's person, while still teaching the traditions of the art.

To conclude, I will defend Capoeira's effectiveness as a fighting art everyday, all day. I will also concede to its weaknesses. I believe in Capoeira's effectiveness very much, but just because I choose to cross-train does not mean I think any less of the art. While others may not share the same sentiments as me, this is simply my opinion.


Very intelligent response, and you speak for the both of us. I have yet to take up BJJ training (which I eventually plan to)........at least not until I feel that I have a "true" base in Capoeira. ValeTudo, I have checked out Pedro Carvalho's BJJ school. What do you think of him? He was rather expensive, and although money isn't an extreme factor, it is a bit more than I was willing to pay at the time. Is there somewhere in So.Cal that you can direct me to so that I can inquire about cross-training? I only can train a couple days a week in another art because of my Capoeira training, school, and work. Any info you can lend would be greatly appreciated.

[valetudo74]

Well, there are many BJJ schools in your area (judging by your Capoeira school's location, I assume you're somewhere in the L.A. County area).

Check out this site: http://www.mma.tv As soon as the site pops up, look to your left and you'll see small sections with titles on them. One is title that says "search for schools" or something to that effect. Click on it, then it will take you to a search page. Click on the drop box and scroll down until you see "CA" for California. It will have a large listing of schools to choose from.

I'm not sure where you're at in L.A. County, but I would recommend checking out some of the following schools:

Rey Diogo- Marina del Rey
Any of the Machado schools
Aloisio Silva
Rickson Gracie
Gracie Academy- Torrance

[M3inline6]

Well, there are many BJJ schools in your area (judging by your Capoeira school's location, I assume you're somewhere in the L.A. County area).

Check out this site: http://www.mma.tv As soon as the site pops up, look to your left and you'll see small sections with titles on them. One is title that says "search for schools" or something to that effect. Click on it, then it will take you to a search page. Click on the drop box and scroll down until you see "CA" for California. It will have a large listing of schools to choose from.

I'm not sure where you're at in L.A. County, but I would recommend checking out some of the following schools:

Rey Diogo- Marina del Rey
Any of the Machado schools
Aloisio Silva
Rickson Gracie
Gracie Academy- Torrance

Actually, I reside in the Inland Empire and train w/ my Mestre in Claremont most of the time. I only attend the Santa Monica classes once or twice a month. I'll check out the site you gave as a reference though. Thanks bro! :cool:

[valetudo74]

Actually, I reside in the Inland Empire and train w/ my Mestre in Claremont most of the time. I only attend the Santa Monica classes once or twice a month. I'll check out the site you gave as a reference though. Thanks bro! :cool:

Here are some schools in your area:

Hitman Combat Sports Center
185 W Arrow Hwy
Pomona, CA, 91767
Phone: (909)392-8519
Email: marc@hitmanfightgear.com

Chris Brennan American/Freestyle Jiu Jitsu
http://www.chrisbrennan.com (click on Murrieta link)

Millennia Jiu Jitsu
http://www.millenniajiujitsu.com
Millennia Mixed Martial Arts
Training Center
181 W. Second St.
Pomona, CA 91766
909.397.0712

The Pomona schools are the closest to Claremont I could find. Chris Brennan's school in Murrieta is pretty good as well, but I would personally recommend training at Millenia under Javier Vasquez, Romie Aram and John Jensen. You'll have a good mix of BJJ with wrestling.

[M3inline6]

Good stuff ValeTudo. You're an excellent source!

[valetudo74]

Good stuff ValeTudo. You're an excellent source!

Haha, thanks! BJJ is like Capoeira; once you are in it for a while, you start to familiarize yourself with the "who's who" of instructors in the art.

I would still strongly suggest Millennia JJ over the other 2 schools. The amount of experience between Vasquez, Jensen and Aram is phenomenal. They teach both gi and no gi, in addition to combining wrestling and Muay Thai. It'll give you a good base and will definitely compliment your Capoeira, at least in my experience it has. To my understanding, you get a mix of NHB/Self Defense training, which is good. This school is also closer to you, so I would definitely check it out.

Chris Brennan (founder of Next Generation) is a great instructor, puts out some damn tough fighters, and is sick with his ground skills. However, I've heard from a few guys that were training with him that a lot of his students are leaving to train with one of his students at a Next Generation affiliate school in Lakewood. He's lost some of his student base because he closed his school down in South Orange Co. He does have another school in Murrieta, but I haven't really heard much about its success. In fact, I've also heard that people are tired of driving all the way out to Murrieta to train out there.

Chris had something going in San Clemente at an established BJJ school down there, but I haven't heard how successful that's been. The only problem I have with how Chris teaches is that he focuses solely on no gi. Once in a while, they'll put the gi's on, but basically, they have a "no pajama (no gi)" mentality. Further, they're only focused on BJJ from an MMA perspective as opposed to both MMA and Self Defense. But, when you go to an MMA school to train to cagefight, that should really be all you should expect.