When life changes...

[TommyG]

Yesterday I received word that I was being promoted at work. Along with a $1.50 an hour raise comes a change to my work schedule. I've been doing Hapkido after work on Tuesday and Thursday nights. However, with my new schedule, I'll be off way to late Tuesday night for class. I'm going to be off on Thursday now so that won't be a problem. The good news is I'll be off Wed. nights now and there's a group locally that teaches BB Taijutsu. I've always been interested in Ninjutsu and would love to start studying it. I also think Ninjutsu would be really good work for my balance and agility.

That being said, here's where the questions come in. I've just recently started studying Hapkdio and am still a white belt. Do you think it is to soon to start cross training? Also, for those of you who have studied both, how well do they mesh? From what I've seen of the two they both use a lot of joint manipulation, throws and pressure/weak point striking. So, from my not very well informed way of thinking, they would seem to do well together. I guess the main point I need advise on is this. Should I try to do both right now and just see how well I am able to do taking both at the same time or should I wait to get at least the basics down in one before starting to learn the other as well?

Thank you for taking the time to consider my questions,
Tommy Galia

[CatWise]

I guess that depends on the individual. From day one I started to train in Hapkido, Arnis and Kali. For me it worked well, but 1 of my friends that did that, it was too much and he was getting confused. He was not doing well in either class. He decided to stick to Hapkido and that help. He will try the other techniques after he gets his black belt.

So, if I were you, I would try it and see how it goes. It might enhance your skill level.

[TommyG]

I guess that depends on the individual. From day one I started to train in Hapkido, Arnis and Kali. For me it worked well, but 1 of my friends that did that, it was too much and he was getting confused. He was not doing well in either class. He decided to stick to Hapkido and that help. He will try the other techniques after he gets his black belt.

So, if I were you, I would try it and see how it goes. It might enhance your skill level.

Thanks,

I'm going to try doing both and see how it works out for me. Should work out. After all, in school you don't learn to read to the level of Dickens before you start learning addition and subtraction. The human mind is capable of so much more than we give ourselves credit for. Both arts focus a lot on balance and movement and I think that the training I receive in one will complement the other.

If I can't manage both at once then I will have at least learned something and can always take it up again when I've learned more of the other.

[Kraen]

I agree with the 'Try it before you buy it' approach to cross-training.

I never posted a suggestion because I also wanted to see what people more experienced than me had to say.

I made the choice to cross-train Hapkido with Aikido. Although the two are relatively similar and for the most part compliment each other fairly well, there are moments where I would get confused. The rolls are different, the goals are different, among a few other things. It was confusing at first, but now I have a clearer picture and a handle on the differences.

The only thing I can really add is have one as your 'main' study and the rest 'secondary' so you're working toward a single goal and just happen to pick up other things on the way, rather than trying to be in 5 places at once.

-Kraen

[Connovar]

Unless the spar on a regular basis (and the vast majority dont) I would avoid it like the plague if you are looking for practical skills. Its showy and people in it talk a big story but its a hollow illusion. I base this on studying it for 6+ years and not just viewing internet video's.

[Coges]

Hey Tommy,

I think it's almost that type of question where the answer will invariably be try it and see. As other posters have already said some can handle it and some can't. You might want to try it out and see how you go.

My personal view is that it would be a poor combination. Hapkido has so many nuances that are picked up from the beginning that mixing with an art like Ninjutsu would upset. If I were to pick an art to cross train in it would be something that offered what Hapkido didn't or had very little of. Potentially BJJ, Kali or something of the like.

I believe that Hapkido has so much to offer from the beginning that you might be better off focusing on just the one and seeing where it takes you from there. I sometimes get distracted from Hapkido by other arts but then find out more of what Hapkido has to offer and become even more hooked. I'm posting this with nil experience in Ninjutsu aside from what I see on the net.

[TommyG]

Let me start out by thanking everyone who has taken the time to respond.

It may all be a moot point now. The new schedule they gave me is only going to be for a couple weeks and then I'll get my real schedule. There's only one day a week for the Taijutsu and I'm more worried now about trying to get a schedule that will allow me to keep with the two days of Hapkido. Master's flexible and will do his best to work in classes around my schedule but my training partner's schedule isn't. He's a great guy and I'd really miss hanging out with him after class.

To Kraen, I agree. Everyone learns differently and the only way to tell is going to be taking a few classes. Figuring out which I want to be my "main" would be hard as I've only been taking Hapkido a short time. Though, from my reasoning behind taking Taijutsu, Hapkido would be the main art as I'm more interested in Taijutsu for balance and dexterity.

To Connovar, I hear that a lot. You hear the same things said about Hapkido, however, it normally isn't from people who take Hapkido. I do hear a lot of people who have taken Taijutsu say that it isn't great. The sparring issue comes up a lot with Hapkido as well. Then again, there isn't really any way to "spar" with techniques that break bones and dislocate joints. Then again, my main reason for taking Taijutsu is balance and dexterity. How well did your training deal with those areas?

To Romulus, I see your point. When I posted this we were still in some very basic and static techniques. Now were starting to get into movement and more difficult techniques. I'm having a hard enough time with some of those. It doesn't help that we were one off on Tues. and so I had master as my partner! The biggest thing I'm having trouble with at the moment is the movement. I always want to move like a stepping side kick where you cross your rear leg behind the front when I should be using pendulum steps. Can't wait until it warms up so I have some practice space. The living room is big enough but I'd have dogs under foot constantly if I were practicing movement in the house.

[Coges]

Hey Tommy,

One on one training with the Master should be great. It's nice to get that kind of attention and you certainly should progress more quickly than in a 20 person class.

In regards to movement, my biggest struggle with Hapkido has been rhythm. It's not generally something that is introduced too early on in training but once you are comfortable with the techniques (especially circular ones) there is a certain rhythm that will make technique so much more effective. It's hard for me to describe but it's almost an up an down movement whilst performing the technique so you take your opponent up and down with you (someone else might be able to explain it better).

The thing is though that I haven't seen too much of this type of movement in other martial arts. Not saying that it's not there but just that I haven't seen it. That was my reasoning for saying that Taijutsu might interfere with leaning this type of movement.

Also like you said the setting up of kicks is different as might be the stepping and evading footwork.

Let us know how you get on though.

[Bruce W Sims]

Yes, it is too soon to start cross-training. Pick one or the other and make a commitment to give it everything you have.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Connovar]

To Connovar, I hear that a lot. You hear the same things said about Hapkido, however, it normally isn't from people who take Hapkido. I do hear a lot of people who have taken Taijutsu say that it isn't great. The sparring issue comes up a lot with Hapkido as well. Then again, there isn't really any way to "spar" with techniques that break bones and dislocate joints. Then again, my main reason for taking Taijutsu is balance and dexterity. How well did your training deal with those areas?

Havent you ever heard of Judo, Sambo, Submission wrestling or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu? They all spar using techniques that break and dislocate joints.

[Bruce W Sims]

Mmmmm........ thats not exactly true.

Beginning with Judo: Kano specifically stated that it was his intention to produce an activty of Japanese tradition but using the "scientific method" he saw being applied to Western sports. He purposely altered or eliminated techniques which were intended to produce injury or incapacitation.

Sambo: An admixture of Russian and Siberian wrestling traditions it was structured with the addition of Judo. Strikes and kicks after the fashion of Mongolian wrestling were eliminated as were gouges, rips and fractures.

Brazilian JJ: Having its roots in pre-Olympic Judo may be taught to include fractures and dislocations, but is intended as an art and abides by the original intent of Kano's Judo in this regard.

Submission Wrestiling: As the name indicates is intended to cause a person to submit rather than to incapacitate. This is not to say that incapacitation cannot occur, but that there are rules to reduce the probability and that it is not the avowed intent to produce this sort of damage.

In the case of Hapkido the intent is to stop the fight in whatever manner is most expedient, which takes traditional Hapkido out of the sports venue. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Connovar]

How often do you dislocate or break bones in your training. If not, why not?

[Coges]

How often do you dislocate or break bones in your training. If not, why not?

Bit of a silly question. I think it's obvious why you don't train to dislocate or break bones.

More often than not any sparring that may be done in a Hapkido environment, if done at full speed, will resemble TKD sparring with takedowns. Obviously good for timing, distance, etc. Any sparring that includes more of the dislocate/break bones techniques would be done a half speed to ensure the safety of the students.

Also, with regards to sparring in arts like Judo, BJJ and the like they are more often focused on larger, stronger joints. Sure, an arm bar can break your elbow, but you definately have more of a chance to prepare your arm once caught or tap in the event the pressure gets too much. Same for a knee bar, triangle, RNC and countless others. Have you tried tapping quick enough when someone is trying to break your fingers? Very difficult. Also in my experience, a lot of the strikes that set up Hapkido techniques are aimed at very sensitive areas. Neck, eyes, groin. Very difficult to spar with these strikes and still have people who want to spar with you.

[Rebel Wado]

How often do you dislocate or break bones in your training. If not, why not?

Hapkido is very similar to Aikido when it comes to many things.

Every throw can be a lock or break. Every lock or break can be a throw. It depends on the intentions and how it is applied.

Bit of a silly question. I think it's obvious why you don't train to dislocate or break bones. ...

Romulus,

Every pin in Aikido and Hapkido is a submission isn't it? A submission is a potential break done slowly so that uke can tap out. Wouldn't you agree?

[Connovar]

Bit of a silly question. I think it's obvious why you don't train to dislocate or break bones.

More often than not any sparring that may be done in a Hapkido environment, if done at full speed, will resemble TKD sparring with takedowns. Obviously good for timing, distance, etc. Any sparring that includes more of the dislocate/break bones techniques would be done a half speed to ensure the safety of the students.

Also, with regards to sparring in arts like Judo, BJJ and the like they are more often focused on larger, stronger joints. Sure, an arm bar can break your elbow, but you definately have more of a chance to prepare your arm once caught or tap in the event the pressure gets too much. Same for a knee bar, triangle, RNC and countless others. Have you tried tapping quick enough when someone is trying to break your fingers? Very difficult. Also in my experience, a lot of the strikes that set up Hapkido techniques are aimed at very sensitive areas. Neck, eyes, groin. Very difficult to spar with these strikes and still have people who want to spar with you.

The reality is that except for finger locks pretty much all the other locks are allowed and done at full speed. At white and blue belt level wrist elbow and shoulder locks are applied at full speed against resisting opponents. At higher levels (purple and up) ankle and knee locks are applied.

However you rarely see standing wrist elbow and shoulder locks in competition because they are very difficult to apply against a resisting opponent. If this wasnt true one would see them used effectively in submission wrestling, bjj, MMA etc.

[dortiz]

"How often do you dislocate or break bones in your training. If not, why not?"

Funny you ask. Preventing those injuries is a major task and sadly ever so often they happen. The line between getting the tap and going through a bit too quickly is very thin. Its never been on purpose but yes. We have easily seen how something snaps or gets tweeked. It why half of our first trainig is in falls and communication. Folks may not call it sparring but we work two man controlled techniques from grabs, punches and wrestling around. We let each other have resistance and as we know the player better we make it very real. Long answer short though there is no forgiving a quick spin on a joint.

Dave O.

Dave O.

[Kraen]

Every pin in Aikido and Hapkido is a submission isn't it? A submission is a potential break done slowly so that uke can tap out. Wouldn't you agree?

But not every technique in Hapkido is a pin.

-Kraen

[Rebel Wado]

But not every technique in Hapkido is a pin.

-Kraen

True. For those not familiar with the term "pin" in Aikido, it basically is a type of submission that also immobilizes the opponent in some way. They are done with the opponent on the ground (at least three points on the ground).

However Kraen, not every technique in BJJ or Judo is a submission either. So what is the point with saying that not every technique in Hapikdo is a pin?

Also, not every submission is a pin (e.g. RNC can submit but it doesn't pin).

[Bruce W Sims]

Hapkido 101:

Lock: To secure a person in a single position.

Pin: A lock utilizing some aspect of the environment (IE. floor, wall, column, table) to secure a person in a single position.

"Come-a-long": A lock that affords the minimum mobility necessary to relocate a person.

Snare: Use of an alternate part of the body (IE. knee, elbow) to actuate or maintain a technique.

Projection: To draw or drive an individual's center of gravity.

Throw: A projection to which is imparted additional vectors causing the individual to turn or roll about his own center-of-gravity. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kraen]

Hapkido 101:
"Come-a-long": A lock that affords the minimum mobility necessary to relocate a person.

Can also go by the name 'Walk-out' or 'Walk-out throw' depending on the actions that follow.

-Kraen

[Bruce W Sims]

Can also go by the name 'Walk-out' or 'Walk-out throw' depending on the actions that follow.

-Kraen


Hadn't come acorss that one. Is that specific to your area?

Here's a few more from lanyard and rope (K. JUL) work.

snare: to seize or encumber using a rope or lanyard

wrap: to completely encircle a body part such as the neck or wrist.

compound wrap: to encircle two appendages, each in succession. Typically this is done by first wrapping a wrist or ankle and then securing the neck.

snap: Targeted use of a rope or lanyard, usually at the face or eyes, using a whipping motion; either underhand or overhand.

flail: stick technique in which the stick is swung in short arcs by its lanyard

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kraen]

Hadn't come acorss that one. Is that specific to your area?

Considering my school was the only (hapkido) one around for hours for a long time, I'd have to say yes.

Personally I've never heard the term "Come-a-long" before. But then again I've only been doing this for a little under 11 months now.

-Kraen

[Hapkid0ist]

The reality is that except for finger locks pretty much all the other locks are allowed and done at full speed. At white and blue belt level wrist elbow and shoulder locks are applied at full speed against resisting opponents. At higher levels (purple and up) ankle and knee locks are applied.

However you rarely see standing wrist elbow and shoulder locks in competition because they are very difficult to apply against a resisting opponent. If this wasnt true one would see them used effectively in submission wrestling, bjj, MMA etc.

I have used my HKD training while in the military and law enforcement as well as doing security. I have never had a problem with the techniques I have been taught not working.

I sparing we do our joint manipulation at full speed when control is developed. It takes a while to develop enough control to execute these techniques safely, but it can be done. This is time that many competative fighters may not want to spend.

But in your situation, this raises a serious issue with HKD. Not all schools are worth the time you put into them. there are to many people out there claiming to teach HKD and the truth is they don't, for whatever reason. This is especially true with TKD schools who also carry the HKD label. Whas your school a TKD school that taught HKD or a traditional one?

Maybe, if you are not to turned off on the art you may want to shop around and try learning at a different school.

It could never hurt.