History of Korean MA

[klaasb]

Korean history

The history of the people living on the Korean peninsula is commonly divided in several periods, most of them named after the ruling dynasty on the peninsula. The Korean prehistory is divided in the Jeulmun and Mumun periods. These periods are named after the kind of pottery that date back to these earliest times. During the Mumun period the Gojoseon kingdom grew in power.
After the fall of Gojoseon in the first century before Christ, several states appeared with three of them growing stronger. This period is known as the Three Kingdom era, with the three kingdoms being Goguryeo, Baekje and Silla.
Eventually Silla conquered the other two kingdoms and ruled Korean peninsula from 668 to 918. Unified Silla had to give way to the Goryeo dynasty in 918 and the kings of Goryeo remained in power until the founding of the Joseon dynasty in 1392 by King Taejo. The Joseon dynasty has been the longest reigning dynasty in world’s history and lasted until 1897. In 1897 the last king of Joseon declared himself emperor and thus the Korean empire came to be. It didn’t last long because in 1910 Korea came under Japanese rule. The Japanese occupation lasted until the end of Second World War in 1945. After the war Korea was split up by the allied forces in both North- and South-Korea. Sadly, a war broke out between both Koreas in 1950. The division of both Koreas lasts until this day, with the border between both countries being the most heavily guarded border in the world.

History of Korean martial arts

Martial arts have existed in Korea since the earliest ages. Until modern times martial arts always had a link with the army. Although unarmed methods did exist they were not viewed as being crucial. It is only been since recent times that unarmed fighting methods are viewed as martial arts; armed fighting methods dominated until about one hundred years ago. Unarmed fighting methods were used to train soldiers or to entertain crowds during festivals where villages competed in wrestling matches.

Pre-state times
Nothing is known about the fighting methods from Korea’s earliest times. Polished stone swords and arrow tips dating back to the Mumun period have been found. These were presumably not only used for hunting, but for warfare as well. Later bronze tools and weapons were found and around 300 BCE the iron culture was imported from China.

Subak
It appears that during the Goguryeo dynasty (37 BCE – 668) Subak (empty-hand-fighting), swordsmanship, spear-fighting and horse riding were practiced. Paintings showing martial arts were found in 1935 on the walls of royal tombs, built for Goguryeo kings, sometime between 3 and 427. The nature of the techniques practiced is however something that cannot be determined from these paintings. References to Subak can be found in government records from the Goguryeo dynasty through the Joseon dynasty (1392-1910).

It should be noted that the term Subak was common in the East Asian area; China, Korea, and Japan. Ssireum (Korean wrestling), Sumo, Shuaijiao etc. were all referred to with this term 'Subak'. Although there is another term 'Gakjeo' for grappling techniques, but the names were not consequently used for the distinct techniques so many records are interpreted trading the terms for strike and grappling techniques. Hence, it would be more correct to state that Subak and Gakjeo were very common techniques that prevailed in different areas and different times in East Asian countries.


Hwarang
Goguryeo was one of the three kingdoms on the Korean peninsula next to Silla (57 BCE–668 CE) and Baekje (18BCE – 660). In 668 Silla conquered of the whole Korean peninsula with the help of the Chinese Tang dynasty. The history of these three kingdoms was written down in two books called Samguk Yusa and Samguk Sagi. These books however were written during the Goryeo dynasty (918 – 1392) more than two hundred years after the collapse of Unified Silla (668 – 918). It is believed that the warriors from the Silla dynasty learned Subak from the neighboring Goguryeo armies when they asked for their help against invading Japanese pirates. Practicing Subak became part of the training for Silla’s hwarang warriors and this contributed to the spread of Subak on the Korean peninsula. But again we do not know exactly which techniques the hwarang warriors practiced and it is safe to assume that the overall emphasis would be on armed fighting methods and not so much on unarmed fighting. Many swords from this period can still be admired in Korean museums. The hwarang did not only study warfare but Buddhism and Taoism as well. Often Buddhist monks instructed the hwarang warriors. Their greatest contribution to the development of Korean martial arts is probably adding a spiritual dimension to the training practices, something that Korean martial arts lacked before. It was the Buddhist monk Won Gwang who formulated the Sae Sok O Gye in the 7th century. This code for the hwarang warrior consisted of five rules:
1. Loyalty to one's king.
2. Piety towards one's parents.
3. Trust among friends.
4. Never retreat in battle.
5. Be selective in the taking of life.
These five rules are still very popular in many Korean martial arts schools today.

Sword techniques from this period are said to have survived after they were included in martial arts manuals that were written during the Joseon dynasty, where they are referred to as Bongukgeom, which means national sword. The Muyesinbo, written in 1759, tells the legend of a boy named Hwangchang from Silla who preformed a sword dance, Geommu. He had a remarkable talent and was invited by the king of Baekje to perform this dance at his court. The boy took this opportunity to kill the king of Baekje. Although subject to many changes the dance survived and is still performed in contemporary Korea.

Goryeo
In the age of the Goryeo dynasty the military played an important role in society. Not in the last place due to the many invasions it had to fight off in the North. During the reign of king Sukjong (1054 – 1105) a special army, Byeolmuban, was put together by Yun Gwan to fight off the Jurchen in the north. This army consisted of three divisions; the infantry called Sinbogun, cavalry called Sinmugun and an army of Buddhist monks called Hangmagun. This army consisted of approximately 17.000 men and defeated the Jurchen. The development of Subak also continued during the Goryeo dynasty (935-1392) more as a form of folk entertainment than for military training. Goryeo records that mention the martial arts include passages about Subak. Later the Goryeo government prohibited the practice of Subak by civilians because people used to bet at Subak games. Subak split into two separate martial arts, Taekgyeon and Yusul, probably in the last years of the Goryeo dynasty or the early years of the Joseon dynasty. It is believed that many of the existing techniques were lost at this time.

Joseon era
Books and official records from Joseon dynasty records often mention Taekgyeon as a folk game. Taekgyeon players are found on several paintings from that era. The most famous painting probably is the Dae Kwae Do painted in 1846 by YuSuk (1827-1873). It shows competitions in ssireum (Korean wrestling) and Taekgyeon.
During the Imjin War (1592-1598), Korean armies fought off a Japanese invasion. The Japanese had imported guns from Portugal and wanted to conquer the mainland. With Chinese assistance, the Koreans fought back the invaders, but at a heavy loss of men and cultural heritage. It was also during this war that the famous turtle ships (geobukseon) from General Yi Sun Sin were used. These ships were covered with an iron shield, much like the shell of turtle, which could withstand the gun attacks of the Japanese.

Despite many important developments the Joseon period is seen as one of decline for the Korean martial arts. The Joseon dynasty was build on the principles of neo-Confucianism, a doctrine that advocated academics rather than martial practice. On the plus side, Confucian scholars wrote several manuals for the Joseon military and it is in these books that we can first learn about Korean fighting methods.

Martial arts manuals
In 1593 the Koreans, with the help of Chinese armies under the command of Li Rusong, attempted to win back Pyongyang from the Japanese invader. Li Rusong was a Chinese general of Korean ancestry. During one of the battles the Koreans learned about a martial arts manual titled Jixiaoxinshu written by the Chinese military strategist Qi Jiguang.
King Seonjo (1567-1608) took a personal interest in the book, and he ordered people in his court to study it. This eventually led to the creation of the Muyejebo in 1598 by Han Gyo who had studied the use of several weapons with the Chinese army.

Prince Sado (1735-1762) took the initiative to revise the methods and added twelve additional fighting methods. These were published in the Muyesinbo in 1759 as the Bonjomuyesibpalban or 18 martial classes. Important additions are the chapters on Bongukgeom and on the admiral sword, called Jedokgeom, of General Li Rusong.

In 1790, these two books formed the basis, together with other Korean, Chinese and Japanese martial art manuals, of the richly illustrated Muyedobotongji.

The Muyedobotongji does not concern itself with Korean methods only. Actually most of the methods and weapons described in the book are of foreign origin, with the great exception of course being the chapter on Bongukgeom.

The book mostly deals with armed martial arts like sword fighting, double-sword fighting, spear fighting, stick fighting and fighting on horseback.

There is one chapter that deals with a style of empty-hand fighting called gwonbeop (fist techniques). The techniques shown are not those of Korea’s own native empty-hand fighting methods but have Chinese roots.

According to the Muyedobotongji empty-handed fighting should be learned before armed fighting since it forms the basic of a martial education. It is also quite remarkable that it quotes "Art of the Internal School" by Huang Baijia stating that internal styles are better suited for fighting than external styles.


Modern Korean martial arts
From 1910 to 1945 Korea was under Japanese rule. This had a lasting impact on the Korean people and Korean culture, including the practice of martial arts. The Japanese government banned the practice of Korean martial arts and promoted the practice of Japanese martial arts like Judo and Kendo through the educational system which was modelled after the Japanese system.
The history of every modern Korean martial art starts during or after the occupation, and was heavily influenced by Japanese martial arts. These Japanese arts were either introduced to Korea during the occupation or brought to Korea by Koreans who had practied in Japan.

After the occupation, Korean masters claimed linkage to traditional Korean martial arts like Subak and denied any connection with Japanese martial arts, mostly because of the bitterness Koreans felt for the Japanese, especially in the first few decades after the occupation.

Although the influence of Japanese martial arts is undeniable and still present, many modern Korean martial arts have diverged from their Japanese counterparts. Ancient manuals like the Muyedobotongji became popular reading and study material for Korean martial artists and influenced the development of many modern Korean martial arts. For example, Koreans who had studied Japanese kendo during the colonization period studied the Muyedobotongji to rediscover their own cultural heritage and recreated the traditional Korean martial arts, although this usually was nothing more than renaming techniques after those found in the Muyedobotongji. In this process the Muyedobotongji more than once was used unjustly as a link to Korea’s ancient martial heritage.

This doesn’t mean that Korean martial arts from before the occupation completely disappeared. Masters of several styles survived the occupation or continued teaching their art even though the Japanese had put a ban on it. Taekgyeon had survived has a folk game and has grown in popularity in recent years. Also the techniques of the Muyedobotongji have survived the occupation and martial arts like sibpalki enjoy a renewed interest.

Some Koreans claim that historically Japanese martial arts came from Korea and thus all Japanese martial arts should be viewed as traditionally Korean. Just as the Japanese turned the martial techniques in older ages into something distinctively Japanese, so too did the Koreans take the Japanese arts and turn them into something that suited their needs. Although martial arts like Taekwondo and Tangsudo have their roots in Japanese karate, they have taken their own route of development and transformed into quite unique Korean martial arts. A popular way to look at it is by saying that although one culture might have provided the timber, it was the other culture that built the house. It is also important to note that speaking about martial arts in terms of them being Chinese, Japanese or Korean is something that is from recent times and has grown this way under the influence of nationalistic views.

The use of the suffix ‘do’, meaning way, to martial arts is of clear Japanese fashion. Traditionally Korean martial arts were called muye (martial art) or musul (martial technique).

[Dragonkarma]

Very nice posting by you !!!

I suggest the book 5,000 years of Korean martial arts history written by master Barry Harmon. His address is on the school listing at www.kuksoolwon.com.

The book is about the general history of Korean martial arts and not Kuk Sool Won specifically.

[Bruce W Sims]

I have a growing concern that so many of the observations that are made in these presentations, including the recent history by Mr. Harmon are the same warmed-over bits we have heard time and again with little or no substantiation. Case in point is the often-quoted assertion that the Japanese government "banned" the practice of Korean martial arts. To date noone has been able to identify such a ban. What can be substantiated is that Koreans willfully chose to participate in such activities as Japanese Kendo, and, in fact fielded a Kendo team against the Japanese on more than one occasion. In like manner, the Japanese mandated the use of Judo and Kendo in the Korean school system (1933) and began utilizing Karate as a physical training device for Korean conscripts (1939). A very well documented, but highly unpopular view of the Occupation is that a significant portion of the Korean population supported the Japanese war effort and saw the coming of the Japanese as a way of ending the centuries of predatory behavior by the Korean upper-class and corrupt officials at the local level on the Korean agrarian base.

Similarly, the MUYETOBOTONGJI was translated into English twice before, and has long been known to the Korean intelligensia. Yet, the Korean people adopted and fostered the popularity of practices derived from Japanese traditions rather than keep alive their own traditions. How come nobody wants to talk about this? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Hyung]

Nice posts.
The almost always notion (mainly supported in earlier MA textbooks by koreans) that the martial traditions were in the China-Korea-Japan direction, may indeed be as true as the China-Japan-Korea direction. They are both true.

[Bruce W Sims]

Sometimes I think that nationalism trumps everything else when it comes to the Korean-Japanese relationships. For instance, I know that the Koreans have made quite a stir about how the Japanese forces trashed the country during the invasion of 1592-1598 (see: Imjin Waerum). What you won't get the Koreans to admit is that the Korean Kingdom was making trade agreements with Japan less than 10 years after that awful conflict.

I often characterize the Korean people as the "street persons" of East Asia, in that its a well-known and acknowledged fact that street people in Urban settings have an almost instinctual ability to turn a given situation so as to assure their benefit/survival. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Hyung]

Maybe that's why many koreans are good at trading business.

[Bruce W Sims]

I'll have to reserve judgement on that. Here in the US I can report that after bailing out our Banking System to the tune of hundreds of Billions of US dollars, that same banking industry has gone back to business as usual. Probably a good subject for another thread. However, I am more concerned with the understanding and preservation of Korean martial traditions, and these are what I see suffering because of preoccupation with commercial success. The Neo-Confucian philosophy in Korea required that people respect the contributions and status of the previous generations. I would hate to see that sort of thinking lost just because it does not produce a profit. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Bruce W Sims]

Does anyone want to continue the discussion concerning KMA. I am thinking of specifically focusing on Barry (Harmon)'s book as a venue for furthering the discussion. I have some issues with his particular take on Korean history, but the idea would not be to pull his effort down but rather to use his contribution as a springboard for reflecting on the overall development of Korean martial traditions. I think we could get a good discussion going, but I am not particularly interested in just poking at Barry's book or finding a comfort level with oral traditions. Anyone game? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Thomas]

I haven't read the book (nor own it)... what is your initial take? Is it worth buying and reading?

[Bruce W Sims]

I haven't read the book (nor own it)... what is your initial take? Is it worth buying and reading?

Honestly, Thomas, I can't think of many books that aren't worth reading ( :-) ), but the matter of buying it.....that is to say, making it a productive part of one's library--- is still open to discussion.

Compared to the recent history offered by a Teacher's Association in Korea,

(see: Korea through the Ages
by The Academy of Korean Studies
Author: The Association of Korean History Teachers ISBN 89-7105-544-8 (Vol. 1, 2)

I suspect that Barry (Harmon)'s book is a much better read. The former book was essentially an examination of various socio-political efforts and their impact on the Korean people. Barry's book tends to focus on a richer view of history albeit through the lens of Martial traditions. So far, my only concern is that the narrative seems to be shaped to produce a certain level of---shall we say----"nationalistic fervor" rather than allowing the history to speak for itself. The reading level for both books is about High School level so the presentation is comfortable and easy-going but I would still support Barry's book over the other, if only for its worth as an introductory work and not as an exhaustive examination. Any of this help?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[reedk]

awesome man keep at it and don't give up

[Bruce W Sims]

OK…… lets just keep in mind that I don’t have any particular agenda. My own view is to hold to documented history as well as is reasonably possible. Since this thread is concerning Korean military and martial traditions lets go back to the beginning and start by putting the house in order there.

The Koreans are very fond of representing that their people go back hundreds of thousands of years and this is true…..sort of. Drawing on the material of the Handbook of Korea, published by the Korean Overseas Information Service (Edit. 2003) we have a clearer picture of this position based on better scholarship.

At Seokjang-Ri near Gongju there are artifacts excavated from the Paleolithic (“Old Stone”) Age, a period that began some 2.5 million years ago. However, the Korean peninsula does not show occupation by Humans or Humanoids prior to about 500,000 years ago. So that’s about where things start for the Korean history----about 500,000 years ago in the Paleolithic Period. However, sites carbon-dated to about 20,000 years ago and bearing flat-bottomed pottery indicate that the original occupants of the Korean area gave way to late-comers from the Ural-Altaic area of Central Asia about 3,000 years BCE. The original occupants are still closely related to the AINU of Japan and the INUIT of Sakhalin Island as well as the eastern coast of Siberia. The modern people of Korea are very much descendents of the late-comers of the 3rd Millenium BCE. So while one can say that Korean history could be said to start some 500 millenia ago, the History of the Korean people is easily identified as starting about the 3rd. Millenium or about 5,000 years ago, and I think that is where we need to make our start.

Beginning with these original inhabitants of the Korean area, we know that they were totemic and lived in clans. They had a firm founding in Animism and participated in rituals commonly guided by a female shaman. They followed an agrarian lifestyle, wove cloth and wore tailored clothing. Tools for skilled work including hunting, farming, domestic labors such as cooking , weaving and sewing were all of an organic or otherwise non-metallic source such as stone, wood or animal. We can keep to this pattern until about 3000 BCE with the arrival of the aforementioned "late-comers". The Bronze Age (4000 BCE - 280 BCE) is in full-swing in the lands west of Manchuria and the first Bronze Age artifacts are found in the Korean area about this time suggesting that the late-comers brought this metallurgy with them and that such technology may have been of no small import in driving off the original inhabitants of the Korean area. Alternately there is the matter of importing this technology from China or nomadic Sythian tribes of northern asia, but I think I'll wait for the next chapter for that. Thoughts?

See: Handbook of Korea; Korean Overseas Information Services; Edit 2003; pgs 37-38 and 47-49

[Kwajman]

Its quite easy to state something as fact and not have to references to back it up. Someone told me the other day that TKD was thousands of years old, not created in the 1950's by general choi, I asked for documentation or proof, none could be had of course.....

[47MartialMan]

I have a growing concern that so many of the observations that are made in these presentations, including the recent history by Mr. Harmon are the same warmed-over bits we have heard time and again with little or no substantiation. Case in point is the often-quoted assertion that the Japanese government "banned" the practice of Korean martial arts. To date noone has been able to identify such a ban. What can be substantiated is that Koreans willfully chose to participate in such activities as Japanese Kendo, and, in fact fielded a Kendo team against the Japanese on more than one occasion. In like manner, the Japanese mandated the use of Judo and Kendo in the Korean school system (1933) and began utilizing Karate as a physical training device for Korean conscripts (1939). A very well documented, but highly unpopular view of the Occupation is that a significant portion of the Korean population supported the Japanese war effort and saw the coming of the Japanese as a way of ending the centuries of predatory behavior by the Korean upper-class and corrupt officials at the local level on the Korean agrarian base.

Similarly, the MUYETOBOTONGJI was translated into English twice before, and has long been known to the Korean intelligensia. Yet, the Korean people adopted and fostered the popularity of practices derived from Japanese traditions rather than keep alive their own traditions. How come nobody wants to talk about this? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Sometimes I think that nationalism trumps everything else when it comes to the Korean-Japanese relationships. For instance, I know that the Koreans have made quite a stir about how the Japanese forces trashed the country during the invasion of 1592-1598 (see: Imjin Waerum). What you won't get the Koreans to admit is that the Korean Kingdom was making trade agreements with Japan less than 10 years after that awful conflict.

I often characterize the Korean people as the "street persons" of East Asia, in that its a well-known and acknowledged fact that street people in Urban settings have an almost instinctual ability to turn a given situation so as to assure their benefit/survival. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Maybe that's why many koreans are good at trading business.

I'll have to reserve judgement on that. Here in the US I can report that after bailing out our Banking System to the tune of hundreds of Billions of US dollars, that same banking industry has gone back to business as usual. Probably a good subject for another thread. However, I am more concerned with the understanding and preservation of Korean martial traditions, and these are what I see suffering because of preoccupation with commercial success. The Neo-Confucian philosophy in Korea required that people respect the contributions and status of the previous generations. I would hate to see that sort of thinking lost just because it does not produce a profit. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Does anyone want to continue the discussion concerning KMA. I am thinking of specifically focusing on Barry (Harmon)'s book as a venue for furthering the discussion. I have some issues with his particular take on Korean history, but the idea would not be to pull his effort down but rather to use his contribution as a springboard for reflecting on the overall development of Korean martial traditions. I think we could get a good discussion going, but I am not particularly interested in just poking at Barry's book or finding a comfort level with oral traditions. Anyone game? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Honestly, Thomas, I can't think of many books that aren't worth reading ( :-) ), but the matter of buying it.....that is to say, making it a productive part of one's library--- is still open to discussion.

Compared to the recent history offered by a Teacher's Association in Korea,

(see: Korea through the Ages
by The Academy of Korean Studies
Author: The Association of Korean History Teachers ISBN 89-7105-544-8 (Vol. 1, 2)

I suspect that Barry (Harmon)'s book is a much better read. The former book was essentially an examination of various socio-political efforts and their impact on the Korean people. Barry's book tends to focus on a richer view of history albeit through the lens of Martial traditions. So far, my only concern is that the narrative seems to be shaped to produce a certain level of---shall we say----"nationalistic fervor" rather than allowing the history to speak for itself. The reading level for both books is about High School level so the presentation is comfortable and easy-going but I would still support Barry's book over the other, if only for its worth as an introductory work and not as an exhaustive examination. Any of this help?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

OK…… lets just keep in mind that I don’t have any particular agenda. My own view is to hold to documented history as well as is reasonably possible. Since this thread is concerning Korean military and martial traditions lets go back to the beginning and start by putting the house in order there.

The Koreans are very fond of representing that their people go back hundreds of thousands of years and this is true…..sort of. Drawing on the material of the Handbook of Korea, published by the Korean Overseas Information Service (Edit. 2003) we have a clearer picture of this position based on better scholarship.

At Seokjang-Ri near Gongju there are artifacts excavated from the Paleolithic (“Old Stone”) Age, a period that began some 2.5 million years ago. However, the Korean peninsula does not show occupation by Humans or Humanoids prior to about 500,000 years ago. So that’s about where things start for the Korean history----about 500,000 years ago in the Paleolithic Period. However, sites carbon-dated to about 20,000 years ago and bearing flat-bottomed pottery indicate that the original occupants of the Korean area gave way to late-comers from the Ural-Altaic area of Central Asia about 3,000 years BCE. The original occupants are still closely related to the AINU of Japan and the INUIT of Sakhalin Island as well as the eastern coast of Siberia. The modern people of Korea are very much descendents of the late-comers of the 3rd Millenium BCE. So while one can say that Korean history could be said to start some 500 millenia ago, the History of the Korean people is easily identified as starting about the 3rd. Millenium or about 5,000 years ago, and I think that is where we need to make our start.

Beginning with these original inhabitants of the Korean area, we know that they were totemic and lived in clans. They had a firm founding in Animism and participated in rituals commonly guided by a female shaman. They followed an agrarian lifestyle, wove cloth and wore tailored clothing. Tools for skilled work including hunting, farming, domestic labors such as cooking , weaving and sewing were all of an organic or otherwise non-metallic source such as stone, wood or animal. We can keep to this pattern until about 3000 BCE with the arrival of the aforementioned "late-comers". The Bronze Age (5000 BCE - 280 BCE) is in full-swing in the lands west of Manchuria and the first Bronze Age artifacts are found in the Korean area about this time suggesting that the late-comers brought this metallurgy with them and that such technology may have been of no small import in driving off the original inhabitants of the Korean area. Alternately there is the matter of importing this technology from China or nomadic Sythian tribes of northern asia, but I think I'll wait for the next chapter for that. Thoughts?

See: Handbook of Korea; Korean Overseas Information Services; Edit 2003; pgs 37-38 and 47-49

:hail: "We are not worthy"

Bruce, you never cease to amaze me with your generous and outstanding posts, esp on this subject.

[Bruce W Sims]

Examining the Bronze Age of Korea in three parts.

Part One: Bronze Age People of the 3rd Millenium.

The Bronze Age, identified as extending from about the 3rd Millenium BCE to about the 3rd Century BCE, was most recently affirmed by the discovery of 5,477-year-old Neolithic human remains found in the glacier between Austria and Italy in September 1991. Identified as “Otzi”, after the Otztal Valley in Italy, examination of his body, equiptment and environment provide welcome insights into a life lived at this European location at this time in history and may shed light on the nature of the people who came to Korea in the 4th Millenia BCE. A rather complete examination can be easily found at WIKIPEDIA on the INTERNET. For the purposes of this discussion of martial traditions, however, the following comments taken from that article are germane.

1.) Analysis of Ötzi's intestinal contents showed two meals (the last one about eight hours before his death), one of chamois meat and the other of Red Deer meat. Both were eaten with some grain as well as some roots and fruits. The grain from both meals was a highly processed einkorn wheat bran,[10] quite possibly eaten in the form of bread. In the proximity of the body, and thus possibly originating from the Iceman's provisions, chaff and grains of einkorn and barley, and seeds of flax and poppy were discovered, as well as kernels of sloes (small plumlike fruits of the blackthorn tree) and various seeds of berries growing in the wild. Hair analysis was used to examine his diet from several months before.

2.)High levels of both copper particles and arsenic were found in Ötzi's hair. This, along with Ötzi's copper axe which is 99.7% pure copper, has led scientists to speculate that Ötzi was involved in copper smelting.

3.)By examining the proportions of Ötzi's tibia, femur and pelvis, Christopher Ruff has determined that Ötzi's lifestyle included long walks over hilly terrain. This degree of mobility is not characteristic of other Copper Age Europeans. Ruff proposes that this may indicate Ötzi was a high-altitude shepherd.

4.)Ötzi had approximately 57 carbon tattoos consisting of simple dots and lines on his lower spine, behind his left knee, and on his right ankle. Using X-rays, it was determined that the Iceman may have had arthritis in these joints. It has been speculated that they may be related to acupuncture.

5.)Ötzi's clothes were sophisticated. He wore a cloak made of woven grass and a coat, a belt, a pair of leggings, a loincloth and shoes, all made of leather of different skins. He also wore a bearskin cap with a leather chin strap. The shoes were waterproof and wide, seemingly designed for walking across the snow; they were constructed using bearskin for the soles, deer hide for the top panels, and a netting made of tree bark. Soft grass went around the foot and in the shoe and functioned like modern socks. The coat, belt, leggings, and loincloth were constructed of vertical strips of leather sewn together with sinew. His belt had a pouch sewn to it that contained a cache of useful items: a scraper, drill, flint flake, bone awl, and a dried fungus to be used as tinder.

6.) items found with the Iceman were a copper axe with a yew handle, a flint knife with an ash handle, a quiver of 14 arrows with viburnum and dogwood shafts. Two of the arrows, which were broken, were tipped with flint and had fletching (stabilizing fins), while the other 12 were unfinished and untipped. The arrows were found in a quiver with what is presumed to be a bow string, a tool of some sort, and some antler which might have been used for making arrow points.[18] There was also an unfinished yew longbow that was 1.82 metres (72 in) long. ……The copper axe could not have been made by him alone. It would have required a concerted group tribal effort to mine, smelt and cast the copper axe head.

In addition, among Ötzi's possessions were berries, two birch bark baskets, and two species of polypore mushrooms with leather strings through them. One of these, the birch fungus, is known to have antibacterial properties, and was likely used for medicinal purposes. The other was a type of tinder fungus, included with part of what appeared to be a complex firestarting kit. The kit featured pieces of over a dozen different plants, in addition to flint and pyrite for creating sparks.

DNA analysis revealed traces of blood from four other people on his gear: one from his knife, two from the same arrowhead, and a fourth from his coat. Interpretations of the findings were that Ötzi killed two people with the same arrow, and was able to retrieve it on both occasions, and the blood on his coat was from a wounded comrade he may have carried over his back.
Ötzi's unnatural posture in death (frozen body, face down, left arm bent across the chest) suggests that the theory of a solitary death from blood loss, hunger, cold and weakness is untenable. Rather, before death occurred and rigor mortis set in, the Iceman was turned on to his stomach in the effort to remove the arrow shaft.
The DNA evidence suggests that he was assisted by companions who were also wounded; pollen and food analysis suggests that he was out of his home territory. This may indicate that Ötzi was actually part of an armed raiding party involved in a skirmish, perhaps with a neighboring tribe, and this skirmish had gone badly.

OK, so, hopefully we have put a "human face" on a Bronze Age man and his lifestyle. We can reasonably consider that the people who came to Korea, say, about 3,000 BCE reflected the sorts of information we uncovered from this person found in the glacial ice.
We also know that the Korean culture of today is a branch of the linguistic patterns of the Ural-Altaic region so that will be our next stop in this "three parter" on the Bronze Age.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi_the_Iceman

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Bruce W Sims]

Part Two: Bronze Age People of the Baedal Kingdom - 3898 BCE to 2333 BCE

The earliest known kingdom, BAEDAL-GUK* comes into being, extending out from the capital city, Shinshi, at, or close to, Baek-Du Mountain (Baekdusan), also known as Changbai Mountain to the Chinese,,and the Amur River - on the border between North Korea and the Manchuria. This site would have been an extraordinarily fine selection as the gentle volcanic slopes, intricate stone features and a natural fresh water lake would have made this a natural stronghold in times of conflict. Though the empire was formerly thought to be mythical, an ancient text of some question (HWANDANGOGI) indicates that the empire was established by Geo Bahl Hwan (3898 B.C.E.-3804 B.C.E.), who was most likely a general of the HWAN-GUK, that it covered a large area and was ruled by a succession of 18 emperors. Of its origins, the HWANDANGOGI reports that a leader descended from Heaven with 3,000 followers. Its is reasonable that these individuals were of a pastoral and migratory nature as the leader found it necessary to order them to plant crops. Various comparisons of linguistic and cultural patterns have caused individuals of this area to be categorized as "Ural-Altaic" which has fallen into some disrepute in the 20th Century as identifying a distinction without any real difference if only for political reasons.
Baedal, also known as Guri, reached its greatest extent under the rule of Emperor Chi-Woo (aka: 14th Emperor Jaoji-Hwanwoong - 2707 BCE - 2598 BCE), and its borders were said to have reached the Shandong Peninsula in modern-day China. The greatest and most renowned of the Baedal Emperors, Chi-woo is described as a brilliant military leader and strategist. His reign was said to have advanced the technology of his empire and that Baedal possessed catapults, flaming arrows, and bronze swords, armor and helmets, and that Chi-Woo dealt in both copper and iron. In addition, he united 12 feudal states, and was not defeated for about 70 wars. Fortunes for the empire are reversed when incursions by Chi-Woo come to the attention of the Chinese emperor Huang-Di of Xia (2697 BC to 2597 BC). Baedal's borders were pushed back, after Emperor Chi-Woo's defeat by Huang-di. Border conflicts with neighboring barbaric tribes may have completed the fall during the reign of Emperor Geobuldan (2381 B.C.E.-2333 B.C.E.) the eighteenth and final ruler.
Source: http://en.allexperts.com/e/b/ba/baedalguk.htm

[Bruce W Sims]

Part Three: Bronze Age People of the Gojoseon Kingdom - 2333 BCE to 108 BCE

GOJOSEON* (lit: "Old Choson") is said to have been founded by Dangun in 2333BC.*
"The Lord of Heaven Hwanin (환인, 桓因, had a son, Hwanung who yearned to live on the earth among the people. Hwanin permitted his son to descend to Mt. Taebaek with 3,000 helpers, where the son founded a city called Shinshi (신시, 神市, "City of God" or "Holy City"). Along with his ministers of clouds, rain, and wind, he instituted laws and moral codes and taught the people various arts, medicine, and agriculture."
The story of this founding is a duplication of the myth surrounding the finding of BAEDAL at Baek-Du mountain including the matter of the 3,000 fellows and the descent from Heaven. The possibility of refugees from the sundered BAEDAL empire emigrating to the land south of the Amur River, may support the idea of a leader coming from BAEK-DU mountain to "live among Humans". The Chinese record the people of the GOJOSEON Kingdom as DONG-I or "eastern barbarians" or "eastern bowmen". During this period, Bronze working reaches the Korean peninsula, perhaps about the 8th Century BCE. The introduction of bronze weapons to Korea may also reinforce the idea that émigré from the fall of BAEDAL may have brought their metallurgy as a closely held secret. However, more likely, the skill-set necessary to produce Bronze did not come with the "new arrivals". An alternate view may lay with the arrival of both Bronze and Iron metallurgy with the expansion of SHANG Chinese (1766 BCE - 1040 BCE) territories. Korean legend has one Prince Jizi of Yin refusing to pledge fealty to the Zhou upon their overthrow of the Shang. The legend holds that Prince Jizi and his retains migrated north and started what was to become known as "Gija-Wiman". If this legend is true the time frame for this prince to bring Bronze metalurgy technology with him to the Korean area figures favorably with the time frame designated for the Korean development of this skill set. Lastly, commerce with Scythian peoples across northern Asia is a distant but viable explanation. In any case, the great numbers of Bronze spear blades unearthed in tombs, suggest that the spear not the sword was the primary weapon in battle. Rather, at this time land warfare consisted most often of spears and bowmen on foot, and mounted archers on horseback using a two-handed bow. Indeed, there is a strong possibility that the sword itself may have developed from the habit of keeping a spare spear point in ones’ belt. Mentions by Chinese sources in the 7th Century BC affirm that GOJOSEON flourished in what is now North Korea and southern Manchuria. The line of some 40 or so kings took the title TANJE or "Birch Emperor" for themselves. The "Annals of the Danguns" are recorded in the GYUWON SAHWA (1675) described by its author as a collection of nationalist legends.*
In the 3rd Century BCE GOJOSEON lost holdings west of the Liao river. The period of Warring States in China pushed refugees eastward, among which was Wiman who entered service of GOJOSEON as a military commander with his base on the Yalu River. Wiman drove out the GOJOSEON king, Jun, which attracted the attention of the Han Chinese. Instability in the northeastern region of the Chinese border jeopardized trade and trade routes in that area. In 109 BCE the Han Emperor, Wu-Ti , in an overwhelming invasion of GOJOSEON by both land and sea overthrew GOJOSEON, and established four bases or "comanderies" in the region.
Source: Handbook of Korea; Korean Overseas Information Service; Ed 2003; pgs 49-50

[Bruce W Sims]

Hmmmmm......

Guess its time to shoot up a flare. (tap:bang: tap:bang: tap:bang:)
Hello? Is this thing on? :rolleyes:

Anybody have any thoughts about my inclusion of the Baedal Kingdom?

Anybody have any thoughts about my downplaying the WIMAN portions of the GOJOSEON material?

Anybody read Barry Hamon's book and care to comment?

Anybody there?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[47MartialMan]

I'm here. TKD is centuries old and the Three Kingdoms prove it.

[benkei]

I'm here. TKD is centuries old and the Three Kingdoms prove it.

and let me guess, the flying kicks in it were designed to dismount riders on horseback? :rolleyes:

[Bruce W Sims]

Well, the Three Kingdoms Period is right around the corner. Lets see.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Obewan]

Good stuff Bruce very interesting what's next?

[Bruce W Sims]

Well....I had sorta hoped that there would be some discussion on the questions I raised in as much as the original premise was to examine Barry (Harmon)'s work against a kind of alternate working of the same information, if you will.

At any rate there is a kind of interim period during the imposition of the Four Commanderies and the beginning of the Three Kingdoms Period. Working on that right now. I hope to post that on Monday or Tuesday.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[47MartialMan]

and let me guess, the flying kicks in it were designed to dismount riders on horseback? :rolleyes:

Yes...so was breaking wood...to penetrate armor...:rolleyes:

[Bruce W Sims]

Influences of Chinese growth on Korean Development (1766BCE - 108 BCE)

With the fall of GOJOSEON, a period of consolidation comes to the peninsula which may reflect the impact of a line of Chinese dynasties and their development. Here is a brief history of the developments in China that occurred during the same time frame in Korea as presented above - 1766 BCE to 108 BCE). People will debate which way the technology moved with the more nationalistic advocates of Korea suggesting that Korea invented everything. I share these developments in China by way of offering some national and international context to the discussion.

The Shang Dynasty (1766BCE – 1040 BCE) is recognized for its many achievements in Bronze work, writing and governmental administration. The Shang Dynasty was clearly a class structure in which burials indicate that military skills were valued. The Shang Army consisted of two main corps; one of infantry and one of chariots. The use of chariots suggests a strong proof of direct contacts between eastern and western Asia with the domesticated horse being used in Mesopotamia about 1500 BC, and evidence of its use in China approximately 250 years later. Below the aristocracy were the craftsmen, especially bronze-workers. (Indeed, the key to the Shang strength may have been built around their ability to produce massive amounts of Bronze alloys as excavation of the Lushang mining ruins in Hubei Province attest.) Peasants comprised the bottom tier of the society as a population of serfs that supported the upper strata of Shang society. The Korean DANGUN legend indicates that Law, medicine and agriculture came to GOJOSEON at this time and excavation of gravesites support the development of an early military science and organization.
The Shang Dynasty was overtaken by the Western Zhou (1122 BCE – 771 BCE). As observers to this event, the GOJOSEON administration would have benefitted from the following developments. The Duke of Zhou established a new capital at Luoyang while the old capital at Xian remained the administrative center. Wherein the Shang had legitimized their rule by invoking their ancestors, the Zhou modified this belief to invoke the "Mandate of Heaven" as a way of identifying the divine right to rule. The Mandate of Heaven was based on rules of good governance and the emperor was granted the right to rule by heaven as long as those rules of good governance were obeyed. The scattered rule of many semi-autonomous holdings are increasingly brought under the rule of a central government as a ZONGFA or "kinship network" though as time goes on the territory that is ruled is far too large for all vassals to be actual blood relatives. Vassals to the king enjoy hereditary titles and were expected to provide labor forces and fighting forces as circumstances merited. Each lord meets battle with his four-horse chariot and 100 infantrymen in support. The uniform requirements of providing manpower in relationship to the size of one's holdings may have formed the basis for the much-copied "well-field" system used by subsequent dynasties. In these many ways, the GOJOSEON kingdom would have been “validated” by their “big brother” to the south, and while the GOJOSEON king would still rule, the “Mandate of Heaven” lays obligations on him to rule justly and fairly and for the benefit of his people and not just his favorites or relatives.
As the Western Zhou decline, China enters into a period known as the “Spring and Autumn Period” (771 BCE – 471BCE) and the "kinship network" also declines. Control of many feudal holdings fall to feudal lords and knights, or "fighting gentlemen", (C. SHI). Unbound by family relationships, these men are free to aggress against their neighbors and accrue holdings. In addition, the first emergence of landlord/tenant relationships are reported for the state of Lu (594 BC). The use of bronze is widespread for coins, utensils, and weapons. However, beginning about the 5th Century BC, the use of iron is becoming increasingly frequent. First noted in the Shang Dynasty through the use of meteoric iron, by the end of this period the cast-iron process will be widely known, as is the earliest use of metal coins for currency.
The origins of Chinese philosophy develop with the initial stages beginning in the 6th century BC. Among those who had the greatest influence are Kong Fuzi (Confucius - 551-479 BC) of the state of Lu, founder of Confucianism and Lao Tsu, founder of Taoism. At this time Sun Tsu, native of the State of Wei becomes Chief of Staff and writes the "Art of War" which continues as a classic on the subject of military strategy. The impact of Confucian and Neo-Confucian thought will shape Korean thinking and structure down to the modern day.
Following the “Spring and Autumn Period”, the “Warring States Period” (403BCE – 221 BCE) in China sees increasing conflicts among the various states born of the disintegrating Zhou dynasty, and produce a period dominated by professional military leaders rather than simple vassals. Armies are massed formations of men and conscription, rather than land-holdings, determines the size of the army. Along with the crossbow, used widely for its greater force and shorter learning curve, the 5th Century BC also sees the introduction of iron weapons. By the 3rd Century, Cavalry, formerly an adjunct for scouting, now becomes a standard military arm.
The DAYE Mine in China functions to produce 400,000 tons of slag of which 50% is iron and an estimated 40,000 tons of copper and bronze are produced. Using a shaft furnace method of smelting, the Chinese produce an estimated 800,000 tons of iron. This method of using streams of air to smelt metal may have served as the source for Japanese "TATARA" (bellows) furnaces in the production of high-grade steel by transferring to Japan through Korea with the use of the pit and the box furnaces. In this area of development, Korea is no match for the greater numbers and sheer volume of production.
The previous progression of development will reach its highest point during the Qin Dynasty in China (221 BCE – 207 BCE).Though only lasting 14 years, the tomb of its single ruler, Shi Huangdi, at Lintong, is guarded by some 7,000 terracotta warriors which provide a representation of the state of military art at that point in time. The order-of- battle, rank and occupation of the troops are readily discerned by dress, hair treatment and laminar armor. Among the 300,000 weapons identified are bows and arrows, four-horse war chariots, crossbows, spears, dagger-axes and iron swords whose general use may have given the Qin army technical superiority over the bronze swords of its neighbors. However, the greater portion of these advances is used in a years-long campaign to unite the various states of northeastern China under the single rule of the first true emperor of China, SHI HUANG DI of Chin, “The Yellow Emperor”. It is the Han Dynasty (206 BCE – 220 AD) that seeks to turn the might of Chinese culture outward to its neighbors.
In Han China, economic development of the agrarian culture resulted in 3 significant changes in Chinese culture including advances in agricultural science and technique, interrelations among producers, retailers and consumers, and greater freedom of movement allowing populations to locate where conditions for success were optimal. Focus on economic progress furthers manufacturing including iron production, and causes Han forces to push back the borders enhancing trade along the Silk Road into Central Asia. The Han have come to appreciate the power of trade and the wide world outside of their domain. Confucian beliefs become increasingly influential raising these traditions and principles to the level of cult-like status transforming the former ethical treatise to the basis for a state religion. In 124 BC an Imperial Academy is established which focuses on the study of the Confucian classics followed by an examination. Successful scholars are eligible for placement in government resulting in the start of Civil Service exams. Fostered by Confucian thought and supported by a highly sophisticated military structure the Han seek to enhance trade by cultivating stability and order. Instability among the neighbors to the northeast is especially noisome as trade by sea is the most economical and these avenues of trade are harried by the predations of neighbors just outside of Han rule. In 108 BC, about the time that Rome is enjoying arguably the best part of its existence, the Han send an expedition to the area of Korea to establish four Chinese Commandries, in an effort to quell violence in that area and encourage trade.
While imposed from outside, the Four Commandries may well have provided the “seed crystals” from which the various Korean clans and tribes begin to consolidate, reflecting the administrations and technologies of their Chinese counterparts.

[Bruce W Sims]

Confederation Period: (108 BCE to 18 BCE)

While not strictly an occupied nation, the various clans and tribes of the Korean peninsula, and areas immediately north of the Yulu River, are closely monitored by the presence of Chinese forces and the four Chinese communities established in the wake of the Han Chinese incursions of 108 BCE. From changes in laws and administration down to the adoption of Chinese eating implements, the presence of a Chinese population had a sizable influence on many aspects of Korean culture, As in the case of the Afghan forces, faced with the invasion of Greek forces under Alexander the Great, the Koreans were probably quickly educated as to the great advances made by the Chinese over the centuries and the folly of facing such overwhelming numbers and technology on an open battlefield. With rare exceptions, Korean strategy developed into withdrawing into SANSONG, or "mountain castles" during trouble times. Rather than fortified towns as one might find in other cultures, these fortresses were essentially enhancements of the mountainous terrain with low walls and embankments. During times of attack, local inhabitants would bury their valuables and come to the fortified areas for their relative safety. With the presence of Chinese troops in their country and repeated antagonisms between the Chinese and the Korean populations, it is reasonable to conclude that inter-related populations of clans and tribes began to coalesce around and near these strong-points producing small allied groups which gradually developed into small but autonomous "city states". Two such kingdoms were PUYO, in the area of the Sungari River in Manchuria and the three kingdoms of MAHAN, CHIN HAN and PYO HAN down in the southern half of the peninsula. As time progressed, certain kingdoms developed a viable class system and a ruling elite allowing authority to flow to those locations. PAEKSHE will develop from a small city-state of the same name, while SILLA will develop out of the city-state of SARO. all of these kingdoms established learning centers where martial, cultural and administrative skills were taught. The general curriculums of these institutions can be found in the SAMKUK SHIH (Veritable record of the Three Kingdoms) so we have some sense of what skills were taught. There is, however, there is no elaboration on how the training was conducted, no manual of what the curriculum was comprised of, or how techniques were executed. Of their weapons, however, quite a bit is known. Perhaps best recognized from this period are the straight-bladed swords bearing a single sharp edge and easily recognized by the metal Ring-shaped pommel, and the Korean flail, a long-handled weapon surmounted with a chain and large weight that could be used to fearsome effect from horseback.*

Source: A New History of Korea; LEE Ki-baik; Harvard University Press, 1984; pgs 19 - 35

[ImaJayhawk]

It's in Korean, but has some good museum pictures.

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[Bruce W Sims]

Fabulous clips!!! Thanks!!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Bruce W Sims]

Three Kingdoms Period - (37 BCE to 668 AD)

Kingdom of Koguryo: (37 BCE to 668 AD)

Founded in 37 BC, this kingdom would last through 28 "Great King"-s or TAEWANG, as identified in the SAMKUK SAGI, until 668AD. Having limited distinct geographic features, the role of the PUYO kingdom for the Chinese Commandries rapidly developed into one of a “buffer nation”, offering an island of relative stability in an ocean of shifting boundaries and authorities. According to legend, a confederation of tribes grew around a disaffected PUYO leader, Chumong, and his followers. The area they claimed, in the Yalu and Tung-chia river basins, is already held by an established YEMAEK culture. The subsequent struggle for dominion includes the attempt by the Chinese Han to stabilize the area with the establishment of a commanderie in 107 BCE. Failing to stem the conflicts, the commanderie is withdrawn westward and the PUYO émigrés blend with the YEMAEK to produce the start of the KOGURYO kingdom. With its origins firmly founded in a direct conflict with China, and topography where uncertain borders required constant attention, the strong military character of the Koguryo kingdom is established. The ruling elite of the KOGURYO nation, even in times of peace, seem to have devoted themselves entirely to military training and held a marked pre-occupation with accruing land, population, domestic animals and other spoils of war. As a result, the Chinese come to regard KOGURYO as belligerent and fond of attacking their neighbors. With the importance of military prowess, KOGURYO develops a PYONG-DANG (lit: “educational institute”) where selected unmarried males could be taught not only military science but classical literature as well. This blending of military skill with the shaping of intellectual ability marks the beginning of Korean martial development and tradition. Cadets at this institute were required to train in the following methods.
1.) Politics and the Chinese Classics (Jung Chi Wa Ko Jun) 2.) Musical Methods (Poong You Bop)3.) Hunting and Fishing (Soo Ryub)4.) Swimming Methods (Soo Young Bop)5.) Striking & Kicking Techniques (Ji Leu Ki Bop)6.) Archery *(Kung Sa)7.) Horsemanship (Ki Sa Bop)8.) Swordsmanship (Kum Sul Bop)9.) Knife Throwing (Dan Kum Sool)The actual content of these methods and studies is not known to us, however, the cadets were thoroughly tested on their skills and successful candidates were held in high regard by the populace. Termed “SUN BI” or “intelligent and brave warriors” successful cadets carried a brace of five knives and a sharpening stone at their waists. Reflecting on the nature of the studies required by their culture, it is plain that KOGURYO military strategy focused on mobility rather than securing and defending fixed points. Absent is the use of such war engines as catapults and training in constructing or assaulting fortifications. Instead, training is clearly focused on the individual competence of each warrior to perform his duties to the best of his abilities for the successful attainment of the cavalry unit’s intended goal.
An attack by PAEKSHE deals a severe blow to KOGURYO during the reign of King KOGUGWON and reveals the need for greater sophistication in its institutions. King SOSURIM (371 – 384) adopts Buddhism for his people to provide spiritual unity while establishing a National Confucian Academy, or “TAEHAK” to upgrade the governmental structure and laws. What follows is a succession of military expeditions and successes that broadly expand the KOGURYO boundaries. In 427 the KOGURYO capital city is shifted to PYONG-YANG, probably for expedience of trade, communication and politics and military concerns. This presents KOGURYO as a distinct threat to the growing Kingdoms of Paekshe and Silla on the Korean peninsula.

Sources: A New History of Korea; LEE Ki-baik; Harvard University Press, 1984; pgs 19-35
Hapkido; KIMM He-young; Andrew Jackson College Press, 2001 pgs 52-53

[Bruce W Sims]

Sorry for the quiet..... will get the Paekshe installment up ASAP.

Best Wishes,

B.

[windtalker]

There is a Shotokan school right down the road from me and there forms look a lot like the Tea Kwon Do a family member does. So did the Koreans teach the Japanese thier martial arts or is the more common story about the Japanese occupation resulted in the Koreans learning Karate?

[Bruce W Sims]

The original Karate Kata proceed from OKINAWA-TE, which in turn proceeds from the Southern Chinese arts found in and around FUJIAN, PRC.

Koreans who trained in Funakoshi's SHOTOKAN and Toyama's SHUDOKAN brought the Kata back to Korea as well as a number of Japanese who taught these arts in Korea prior to the end of the Second WW. There are a number of Koreans who are very embarrassed that a.) a significant portion of the population supported the Japanese effort and b.) the Japanese lost the war taking the fortunes of some Korean families with them. This was not helped by the fact that a great number of political offices continued to be held by pro-Japanese collaborators well after the War simply as a bulwark against the Communists gaining a foothold in the country. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[windtalker]

The original Karate Kata proceed from OKINAWA-TE, which in turn proceeds from the Southern Chinese arts found in and around FUJIAN, PRC.

Koreans who trained in Funakoshi's SHOTOKAN and Toyama's SHUDOKAN brought the Kata back to Korea as well as a number of Japanese who taught these arts in Korea prior to the end of the Second WW. There are a number of Koreans who are very embarrassed that a.) a significant portion of the population supported the Japanese effort and b.) the Japanese lost the war taking the fortunes of some Korean families with them. This was not helped by the fact that a great number of political offices continued to be held by pro-Japanese collaborators well after the War simply as a bulwark against the Communists gaining a foothold in the country. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Just curious how the Korens claim Tae Kwon Do is a native created art when they use Karate forms and learned Shotokan?

[Bruce W Sims]

You're not going to like this answer but it has a lot to do with just people being people.

In the absence of personal growth, people function on a very simple economy associated with the accrual and dispersement of energy. In order to produce a given result one must either gather significant amounts of energy and/or disperse it in a given pattern. Both activities require a lot of effort and sacrifice and most folks are simply not up to the task. As a result it is easier to lie, cheat, steal, misrepresent, misappropriate and mislead than it is to simply rely on one's own efforts, toss the dice and accept the results.

There are tools that can be applied so as to uncover such behaviors (Ockham's Razor, for instance), but there is nothing that will prevent people from being what they are and acting on it as such. Not sure if this helps or not. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[47MartialMan]

You're not going to like this answer but it has a lot to do with just people being people.

In the absence of personal growth, people function on a very simple economy associated with the accrual and dispersement of energy. In order to produce a given result one must either gather significant amounts of energy and/or disperse it in a given pattern. Both activities require a lot of effort and sacrifice and most folks are simply not up to the task. As a result it is easier to lie, cheat, steal, misrepresent, misappropriate and mislead than it is to simply rely on one's own efforts, toss the dice and accept the results.

There are tools that can be applied so as to uncover such behaviors (Ockham's Razor, for instance), but there is nothing that will prevent people from being what they are and acting on it as such. Not sure if this helps or not. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Also, let us not forget face/pride.

[Theforgotten]

Just curious how the Korens claim Tae Kwon Do is a native created art when they use Karate forms and learned Shotokan?

It is an issue of national pride. TKD is the national sport of Korea and its main export. It is one of those things that identifies Korea as Korea. So, admitting that it is actually Japanese when there is still so much anger and hatred in Korea toward the Japanese would undermine the nationalist agenda and lead to a major loss of face. TKD came from Shotokan and still has the same core components as Shotokan. Most well trained martial artists and/or martial historians can see this, but pointing it out is like discussing the large pink elephant that is standing in the middle of the room. With time, it will probably be less of a hot issue and people both inside and outside of Korea will be more than willing to admit the truth.

[Bruce W Sims]

Three Kingdoms Period - (37 BCE to 668 AD)

Kingdom of Paekshe: (18 BCE to 663 AD)

Paekshe was founded by ONJO, the 3rd son of JUMONG—founder of KOGURYO—near the present location of Seoul, South Korea in 18 BCE and would last through the reign of some 31 kings (“Wang”). By prevailing over other MAHAN tribes in the area and through a series of shifting conflicts and alliances with the other two Korean Kingdoms---SILLA and KOGURYO--- PAEKSHE came to control the western half of the Korean peninsula. Its control over the coast nearest to Chinese waters set the stage for its successes as a power oriented towards trade with both China and the Japanese islands. At its height, PAEKSHE could boast of established colonies both in northeastern China as well as the western half of Honshu in the Japanese islands. Such a position allowed PAEKSHE to benefit from developments in Chinese technology and culture as well as to act as a conduit for such developments to the Japanese islands. During this same time, China was experiencing a range of conflicts among small kingdoms, a dynamic which commonly encourages growth in military science and technologies. Arguably one of the greatest developments was the adoption of Buddhism as PAEKSHE’s state religion in 384, and later to be transmitted to Japan. However, other contributions included, but are not limited to
Chinese writing, mounted warfare, ceramics, advanced weapons metallurgy, and ceremonial burial. In 320 AD, King Bi-Ryu had ordered the formation of an institution for training the cadre around which the army of PAEKSHE could be formed and had mandated that archery would be practiced on the first and 15th of each month. Instruction at the institute also included
1.) Ko Jun (classical literature)
2.) Bool Su ( Buddhist Sutra)
3.) Jung Dai Beop (Defense Against Multiple Attacks)
4.) Soo Sool (Emptyhand Fighting)
5.) Kum Sool Beop (Swordsmanship)
6.) Mok Bong (Wooden Pole Fighting)
7.) Ki Sa (Horsemanship)

As in the case of KOGURYO, while the subjects studied at the institute of PAEKSHE are recorded, the actual nature of the material itself is not. In this way, again, it is known that PAEKSHE trained a form of Unarmed fighting, for instance, but what such practices entailed remains unknown.
In the 5th century, PAEKSHE retreated under the military threat of KOGURYO, and with the loss of the Seoul region to KOGURYO in 475, PAEKSHE lost its ready access to the sea and regular communication with China and Japan.
PAEKSHE fell to an alliance between SILLA and TANG China during the years 660 to 663.

[Bruce W Sims]

Three Kingdoms Period - (37 BCE to 668 AD)

Kingdom of Silla: (57 BCE to 668 AD)

Beginning in 57BC the Silla Kingdom is ruled variously be the PAK, SEOK and KIM families and likewise had a variety of titles for the kingship position including ISAGUEM, MARIPGAN, WANG and YEOWANG. A succession of 56 Kings would head this state, though, like Paekshe, some of the kings would take the title of "emperor". Probably the best known of the Korean military learning centers was that of the Silla Kingdom which produced the well-known HwaRang warriors whose reputation has come down to us today. Like their brethren in KOGURYO and PAEKSHE, the HWARANG and their followers, the RANG DO, were highly schooled in both martial and scholarly pursuits including,
1.) Kung sa (Archery)
2.) Too Ho (Throwing)
3.) Chil Kuk (Kicking)
4.) Kak Choo (Throwing)
5.) Soo Bahk (Punching and Kicking)
6.) Ki Sa (Horsemanship including mounted archery)
7.) Taik Kyon (Kicks)
8.) Soo Ryup (Hunting and Fishing)
9.) Cho Chum (Swinging)
10.) Kum sool Bup (Swordsmanship)

Despite earnest research by modern scholars the precise nature of the HWARANG continues to be debated. However, documented history identifies a clear relationship between Tang China and Silla which would have certainly included the exchange of military science and technology allowing Silla to develop a trained cadre.
In 668 AD, the Silla Kingdom, both through skill and the assistance of the Chinese Tang Dynasty will overcome its other two neighbors and unite the Korean peninsula. Subsequent attempts by Tang China, in turn, to overcome Silla fail. As a result the kingdom known as "Unified Silla" is established.

[SsangKall]

the 'Goguryeo–Sui*Wars' of 598-614(wikipedia is my reference, of course) has really made me wonder whether the goguryeo king's mentality was a bit bullyish, or if frequent raiding of other kingdoms was out of the king's control. i am thinking about comparing it to the japanese pirate raids of silla kingdom's shores..... thoughts?

[Bruce W Sims]

the 'Goguryeo–Sui*Wars' of 598-614(wikipedia is my reference, of course) has really made me wonder whether the goguryeo king's mentality was a bit bullyish, or if frequent raiding of other kingdoms was out of the king's control. i am thinking about comparing it to the japanese pirate raids of silla kingdom's shores..... thoughts?

Hard to say..... certainly the Chinese had come to view that kingdom as "belligerent" but sorting out the motives would be pretty problematic. In the area of geo-politics, wherever there is an area with limited geographic features there seems to be long histories of constant warfare. This probably a function of not having identifiable borders for each respective domain. I can kinda see this with that portion of KOGURYO which extended up into Manchuria, and by extension, down towards China. However, this does not explain why there would be antagonisms towards PAEKSHE and SILLA where a feature such as the Yalu River makes for a clear boundary.

Another bit to consider is that there seems to be indications that the folks who invested farther down the Korean peninsula were pushed off of the Asian steppe by more belligerent tribes. I suppose the evidence can support that argument, anyways. The sense I get is that the character of the KOGURYO kingdom retained the greatest amount of that "steppe mentality" in which raiding and other agressions against one's neighbors ----as well as defending against such actions----was an integral part of the pattern of survival. I speculate that modern revisionists could easily attribute the recent belligerence of North Korean politics to generations of "KOGURYO DNA", but I think thats a bit of a stretch. My own guess is that the Korean Resistance Movement did not get much help from the outside world, save for Russia's bits now and then. As a result I can't imagine that there is any love lost between North Korea and the rest of the planet.

BTW: My personal favorite of the Three Kingdoms is PAEKSHE rather than SILLA. Denied trading routes with China through the north end of the peninsula by KOGURYO, PAEKSHE took to the sea and opened trading routes with both China and what would later be YAMOTO Japan. I think SILLA gets the lion's share of the recognition since "history is written by the winners", yes? But when I look at the research it certainly seems as though PAEKSHE was more disposed towards new ideas and technologies. IMHO.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[SsangKall]

as hanmun was introduced to silla by the tang kingdom, i wonder if in the civil/military exams the seven military classics had to be studied by officers.

[Power_plant]

From the perspective of a Tang Soo Do practioner who was done some research into the history of Tang Soo Do. There is a tendancy for the history of TSD to be shown as a centuries old shown influenced by subak (mentioned in the muye dobo tongji).

My initial research came up with this:


The Kokuryo Dynasty (37 to 668 A.D.)
Along the streams of the Aproh River there are tombs dating back about 1,500 years. The walls of these tombs show murals of Tang Soo Do at that time. There is no evidence that indicates the status of the art at that time.

The Silla Dynasty (668 to 935 A.D.)
The art of Tang Soo Do is present in various Buddhist sculptures of that period along with the “Thirteen Shaolin Monks”, Dal Ma Dai Sa, Mo Ryun Dai Sa (two well known Buddhist monks who practices martial arts), as well as the presence of the So Rin (Shaolin) temple in China. Many thousands of Buddhists studied Tang Soo Do at that time, a subject worthy of considerable study.

The Ko Ryo Dynasty (935 to 1392 A.D.)
At this time there are historical books such as the 18 volumes containing the ancient history of Ko Ryo, and the 14 volumes of Yul Chun, which shows the popularity of Tang Soo Do about 800 years ago. At the period of the 16th king, Ui Jong in Ko Ryo dynasty age, there was a man whose name was Ui Moon Yi. He was a favourite with King Ui Jong because he was very good in Soo Bahk Ki (technique). He was Dai Jung which means commander of the military. Later in this period, during the time of the 19th king, Myong Jong, there was a rebel army that attacked the kingdom and which was led by Kim Po Dang. Ui Moon Yi said that, “There is nothing to worry about, so long as I am alive”. After the war was won, many people said that “it is only due to Ui Moon's skills”.


According to the record of the 36th volume of the old history books of Ko Ryo, about 600 years ago, period of the 30th king, during the Kyi Sa year King Choong Hye made a trip to Sang Shun Jung and enjoyed seeing Tang Soo Do demonstrated. An entry in the 18th volume of the History of Koryo, written in this Dynasty 800 years ago, mentions We Moon Lee who was appointed to the post of army commander by the 16th King Ui Jong, for his expertise in Tang Soo Do as a combat technique as well as a form of fitness training.

The Yi Dynasty (1392 to 1907 A.D.)

According to the 32nd volume of the Korean history book “Tae Jong Sil Rok”, King Sang Wang was born in July of the Byong Sin (about 500 years ago). The king had a big party attended by his son and other relatives. They enjoyed seeing soldiers performing in a Tang Soo Do presentation.

Other books besides Tae Jong Sil Rok give evidence of the practice of Tang Soo Do during the YI Dynasty. An especially important and useful book was the Muye Dobo Tongji (Military Arts Manual). It was the culmination of several earlier publications where an original description of six techniques was added to until its final content of 24 techniques was published. These techniques were derived from various schools of martial artistry. The presence of this book during the Yi Dynasty establishes the existence of Tang Soo Do beyond any reasonable doubt. The books increased the popularity of Tang Soo Do to the point at which the army used Tang Soo Do competitions as potential recruitment opportunities.

Training in Tang Soo Do varied in technique from one place to another, depending on the method, style, period and location. Archery, for example, was most popular under King Se Jo, 7 monarch of that period. Later, during the reign of King Sun Jo, the book “Chun Bo” was written describing the techniques of Gun Bong (basic stick art) by Han Kyo. In addition, the “Hyun Rung Ji” (Name of Book) described Sip Pal Ki (18 techniques) for the Juk Chang Tchang (the long spear). Such study became popular and the name Sip Pal Ki was most commonly to refer to the martial arts. Later in this same period, a book of 24 techniques of Ki Yee (the art of horsemanship) was added to Sip Pal Ki. Ja Be was another term commonly used to refer to Tang Soo Do. By and large, despite the presence of scrolls, books and statuary, the arts were handed down by word of mouth to the present day.
Towards the end of the Yi Dynasty, a style of fighting developed called Taekkyon, which employed only foot techniques. (Taekkyon is not related to the current Tae Kwon Do). There are still people who practice the techniques and who have seen Taekkyon used by older people in Korea. Taekkyon is uncommon and was banned by the Japanese during their occupation but has been named as a national treasure by the South Korean government.

Taekyon developed from ancient Tang Soo Do, and modern Tang Soo Do has benefited by incorporating the superb foot techniques into its style. Other popular martial arts at the time included Sip Pal Ki (18 technique style), Sam Sip Yuk Ki (36 technique style), Sip Pal Ban (18 techniques), Sip Pal Jong (18 techniques), Sam Sip Yuk Jong (36 techniques), and of course Tang Soo Do.

The various martial arts of Korea were practised to the end of the Yi Dynasty (1907). The study of these arts halted during the Japanese occupation of Korea, ending in 1945. At that time modern Tang Soo Do began.

This is relating just to pre 1945 events.

Post 1945 -


The modern development of Tang Soo Do is heavily indebted to Grand Master Hwang Kee who formed the Moo Duk Kwan (Korean Martial Art Academy) on 9th of November 1945.Grand Master Kang Uk Lee, now 10th Dan and one of Grand Master Hwang Kee's most senior students, introduced Tang Soo Do to the United Kingdom and South East Asia in the early 1970s. His inspiration and guidance were instrumental in the increase in popularity and development of Tang Soo Do in Europe. The following is an account of how Grand Master Hwang Kee set up the modern Tang Soo Do organisation and how it evolved into a global organisation.

Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee was born on 9th of November, 1914. His first contact with martial arts was at the age of 7 when he witnessed a man defeat several attackers with various hand and foot movements. He then followed the man home and from a distance he attempted to copy the movements. One day he plucked up the courage and asked the man to teach him but was refused on account of his young age. Nevertheless, he could not forget this experience and continued to practise what he had seen. In May 1936 he was working for the rail road company in Manchuria and he met a Chinese Master Yang, Kuk Jin. After several requests a friend, Mr Park, and himself were accepted as students.

As Grand Master Hwang Kee began to learn martial arts under the Chinese martial arts master, Master Yang, in 1936. The training with Master Yang may have influenced the Moo Duk Kwan system. A major teaching point of the Chinese martial arts systems is that of legendary thinker Confucius, a very influential teacher even to this day his teachings are still widely held in high esteem through his version of the ethic of reciprocity: do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you, this may have also had an influence in the process of bowing before sparring, coupled with the bow being a mark of respect in Japan and humility (a disposition to be humble), two features that should be found in any martial artist regardless of the style that they practice. Another major development of Tang Soo Do is the twisting of the hip, the hip twist allows for much more power to be generated into every move. Grand Master Hwang Kee recognised this and such every move in Tang Soo Do features this hip twist, one key idea is that less you do and the bigger the effect the greater the accomplishment. This can be seen in the hip twist, a tiny movement with massive power.

The training consisted of basics and conditioning (strengthening of bones to resist larger loads of material, related to Wolff's Law which states that “bone in a healthy person or animal will adapt to the loads it is placed under. If loading on a particular bone increases, the bone will remodel itself over time to become stronger to resist that sort of loading. The external cortical portion of the bone then becomes thicker as a result. The converse is true as well: if the loading on a bone decreases, the bone will become weaker due to turnover, it is less metabolically costly to maintain and there is no stimulus for continued remodelling that is required to maintain bone mass.” This means that bones become stronger if they are put under more stress. Wolff's Law was developed by the German Anatomist/Surgeon Julius Wolff (1836-1902) in the 19th century).

During the Japanese occupation we are presented with the reason as to why we have little information regarding the history of Tang Soo Do and other Korean past events. Means of cultural suppression included “altering” public monuments, including several well-known temples, palaces, scripts, memorials, and statues. Songs and poems originally dedicated to Korean Emperors were re-written to adore the Japanese Emperor. Carved monuments underwent alterations to the Chinese characters to delete or change part of their meaning. Sungnyemun, a virtual symbol of Korea, was altered by the addition of large, Shinto-style golden horns near the roofs (later removed by the South Korean government after independence). The primary building of Gyeongbokgung was demolished and the Japanese General Government Building was built in its exact location. The Japanese colonial authorities destroyed 85 percent of all the buildings in Gyeongbokgung. The Korean History Compilation Committee confiscated and burned Korean history books. Many ancient Korean texts that were discovered mentioning Korean military and cultural exploits or Japan's behaviour as the Wokou were deleted methodically; in general, the awareness of Korean history among Koreans declined during this period; meaning that while the old generation of Koreans could not forget their history, the new generation grew up with little or no awareness of their own heritage. This however led to renewed interest into Korean heritage by a number of people. The large resentment of the harsh treatment of Koreans eventually led to a revival of Korean nationalism, including in-depth research projects into Hangul, the Korean alphabet, which resulted in the standardization of the Korean writing system by scholars such as Lee Hui-Seung (이희승) and Choe Hyeon-bae (최현배) in the 1930s, as well as underground publications of books about historical Korean figures. Historians, such as Shin Chae-ho, were active in trying to present a Koreanised version of ancient history using textual material.

Together with Tae Geuk Kwon and Dam Toi form and application (both styles of martial art). He returned to Seoul in August 1937 and began work for the Chosun railway in 1939. After the end of World War Two in 1945 Grand Master Hwang Kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan school which means “Institute of Martial Virtue”. It was his aim to better peoples lives through martial art. He had a philosophy which brought together the Taoist view of nature (there is an interdependent relationship between all things); the virtue of Buddhism and the conduct of Confucian ethics (ancestors and deities, the etiquette of daily behaviour and social and political institutions). Central to this theme were the basic principles used by an elite warrior corp. and created by a Buddhist monk many centuries before. He too believed that the martial artist should be a scholar.

Hwang Kee first used the name “Hwa Soo Do” to describe his art, unfortunately this was unsuccessful. At the beginning of 1947 he started to teach Tang Soo Do (Moo Duk Kwan, Tang being a more widely known term in Korea). However on the 25th of June, 1950 the Korean War began. Grand Master Hwang Kee had to move his training further south of Seoul, he taught at Cho Ryang train station in Pu San city during 1951. After the end of the war, in 1953 he returned to teach in Seoul, by May 1955 he was able to lease a building in front of the central station which became the legendary “Joong Ang Do Jang”. Grand Master Hwang Kee then began to develop the art scientifically by incorporating the twisting of the hips with each move to increase its effectiveness.

The police, schools and the military all sought instruction of Tang Soo Do and as a result of this the number of Do Jangs grew all over Korea. The Moo Duk Kwan system was also taught at the Naval and Air Force Academy of Korea, around this time the art was in constant demand by American servicemen in the region.

In 1957 Grand Master Hwang Kee came across the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji. It is the oldest and most valuable historical documentation of the ancient Korean art known as “Soo Bahk”. He then spent many years interpreting the text to understand its meaning. On the 30th of June, 1960 he incorporated Moo Duk Kwan as as the Korean Soo Bahk Do Association as the traditional martial art of Korea.

In May of 1961 there were discussions of unifying all of the Kwan styles in Korea under one name. The Moo Duk Kwan was the most successful of the Kwans and it was proposed that the Moo Duk Kwan should have 3 of 21 seats on the board of directors and that the new name would be known as Tae Kwon do. Tang Soo Do had not been considered as it has Chinese connotations (Tang refers to the Chinese Tang Dynasty (June 18, 618 – June 4, 907) and translated means way of the China Hand). Tang Soo Do is the Korean pronunciation of the Chinese characters 唐手道. Tang Soo Do literally means "Chinese hand way". The same characters are pronounced karate-dō in Japanese. The first character, 唐, (which initially referred to China) was later changed to 空, by Funakoshi Gichin (creator of Shotokan Karate) to mean "empty" rather than "China". Outside of the far east, the term "Tang Soo Do" has primarily become synonymous with the Korean martial art promoted by Hwang Kee. Grand Master Hwang Kee refused to take part in the unification process as he felt that Soo Bahk Do was the traditional martial art of Korea.

Increasing pressure was put on Soo Bahk Do and many remaining members moved over to the newly formed Tae Kwon Do. Attempts were made to shut down the Soo Bahk Do Association. In 1965 Grand Master Hwang Kee made legal proceedings against the Korean government in the high courts of justice. He won the lawsuit in November 1965 and the Soo Bahk Do had an ensured future however the government continued the fight in the supreme courts in January of 1966. In the June of 1966 the courts ruled in favour of Grand Master Hwang Kee and he was the victor once again. This would allow him to run his organisation without interference and thereby work to rebuild his organisation.

By the 1970s sanctions were eased and Moo Duk Kwan schools were established in the UK, USA, Greece, Germany, France, Belgium, Italy, Switzerland, Netherlands, Puerto Rico, Argentina, Malaysia, Brunei and Australia. The United Kingdom Tang Soo Do Federation was established in 1974 as a designated branch of the Korean Soo Bahk Do association. It was headed by Master Lee, Kang UK then a 7th Dan. He was promoted to 8th Dan in 1979 and later formed his own organisation in 1989 very similar to Hwang Kee's. Thus leading to the creation of the United Kingdom Tang Soo Do Federation (UKTSDF).


However, whilst this was what I had found I had some questions about it. There is a widely held belief that Tang Soo Do is centuries old and is a fully indigenous art to Korea if that is the case then why are formations found in the Japanese and Okinawan systems that predate recorded Tang Soo Do history? If TSD was as significant as the research shows then it would mentioned in the muye dobo tong ji but there is no mention of TSD only Subak is mentioned.

It seems to me that this could almost be a nationalistic move to try and preserve the history of Korea and everything in itdespite there being no evidence for it, much like the many martial arts schools that claim to be related to the shaolin temple but have no evidence to support this.

Don't get me wrong here I enjoy TSD immensely and I enjoy training but sometimes the truth is sexed up to make it appear more interesting than it truly is and that can lead to people becoming mislead in their search for what TSD is or any martial art is for that matter.

Martial fact or martial myth? I can't say really I havn't done enough research but invariably a lot of research is covered up by hidden agendas and some writers writing just what they want the reader to read and nothing else.

Hope that helps...

[Dragonkarma]

I studied Tang soo do mu do kwan back in the day from Kim Ki Whang in Silver Spring , Md.-It was understood that Northern China kicking techniques heavily influenced the style.
In those days ( early 70's ). Tang soo do used more variety of kicking than tae kwon do. This changed due to the tournament competition ( we would "steal" techniques from one another ). After a while, everybody used the same stuff.

[Bruce W Sims]

The problem with TANGSOODO, is that noone has ever actually identified the Chinese Connection. Hwang Kee needed to be much more forthcoming about what material he got from where and to what extent. If he truely studied at a Chinese Government gym in Manchuria while working for the railroad he needed to come up-front and say so. If he took information out of books rather than learn it in a class, he needed to say so. The KMA has no-end of trouble because modern Korean practitioners were anything but transparent about what they were doing. My own personal opinion is that the Korean practitioners are far more interested in exploiting their history for what they can get out of it than anything else.

[Hyung]

Adding more controversy about Tang Soo Do..... I read about Master Won Kuk Lee, founder of Chung Do Kwan, to be the first ever to use the term: "Tang" with "Soo" and "Do". And not Hwang Kee, who later used it.

[Dragonkarma]

The deal is that many instructors from Korea who came to the U.S. simply made up their own history, rank, and arts. They lied.

The new Korean government documentary is an effort to report the legit founders and traditional martial arts arts taught in Korea.

Example: Joo Bong Lee is NOT the founder of Hwarang do in Korea. He MAY be the founder of his OWN American Hwarang do.

There will be many red faces soon.

[Bruce W Sims]

Yeah...well..... its been years now and every time somebody asks about the truth the answer always seems to include some fear of offending people, loss of "face" and so forth. Maybe its about time we got the truth out in the open, got the red faces over with and moved on. Its kinda like those TITANIC t-shirts that read "The boat sank; get over it!!" I see the same thing with the Korean practices. "The so-&-so's lied; get over it already!!"

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Hyeongsa]

Joo Bang Lee claimed to be the founder of MODERN Hwa Rang Do, not the founder of Hwa Rang Do from ancient Korea. He admits to the help of forming Hwa Rang Do to what it is, with people like: Jin Han Jae, In Hyuk Suh, Kim Wu Tak, etc. The thing is, everyone assumes these things, or that these masters are lying, until they train under them. I have been fortunate enough to talk with many of these great men and they all said the same thing: if they were only to teach the historical "ancient" forms and techniques, they would not have all that much to teach.
In Kuk Sool Won, In Hyuk Suh is more than proud to admit he came up with the color belt forms...which were developed during the Kuk Sool Hap Hyul Hwe period, and if you notice, the forms in Hwa Rang Do look VERY similiar to what we're doing. Hmmm....I even remember being taught Go Geup Hyung very similiar to a way I saw from Tae Joon Lee's own school (a demo there). Some masters are flat out liars and say they are the decendents of some ancient lineage. Others just teach. I say, ignore the liars and focus on the teachers!

[El Medico]

OK-but those books written by Lee I bought in the late 70s are titled :"The Ancient Martial Art of Hwarang Do". Not the ancient philosophy of same. They are still sold under the same titles today.

[Hyung]

Yes, ok.
But now, are we going to believe the so called "official" truth?
After so many years?
What about Myong Jae Nam, Myung Kwang Sik, Bong Soo Han, Choi Yong Sul, etc... who already passed away... who is left to face and answer these "new questions" ?
Every human activity has money somehow, behind it. And with money, there's always politics. And now, are we going to face the new R.O.K. politics on K.T.M.A.s?
Remember, there is no objective truth... at least in history. It is impossible to know what really happened on those years, who was who, etc. The "truth" is an artificial human construct.
Maybe we should focus on our own knowledge, and who taught us all of these: our teachers. Respect.

[Bruce W Sims]

OK-but those books written by Lee I bought in the late 70s are titled :"The Ancient Martial Art of Hwarang Do". Not the ancient philosophy of same. They are still sold under the same titles today.

I would also like to mention that there was information put out not so very long ago by LEE Joo Bang's son, Tae-Jon that once more identified his father as the 50-something inheritor of the Hwa Rang tradition. Now, when a kids own father qualifies his statement and the son reverts to the original declaration what are the rest of us suppose to think?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[ImaJayhawk]

YouTube - Hwa Rang Do: The Untold Story of the Formation of the Modern Korean Martial Arts - Part 1

YouTube - Hwa Rang Do: The Untold Story of the Formation of the Modern Korean Martial Arts - Part 2

YouTube - Hwa Rang Do: The Untold Story of the Formation of the Modern Korean Martial Arts - Part 3

[Bruce W Sims]

A very interesting presentation. For myself, it seems to bear the classic hallmarks of Korean marketing. If one were to change the names and few other details this could be the same story told by SUH In Hyuk, or JI Han Jae or anyone else ---with the identified personality taking the lead part as "savior of Korean martial traditions".

Just once I would like to meet someone who says, "I gave my word to work with all other practitioners---regardless of their practice or what reward I might reap--- and thats what I did". Instead, what I get repeatedly is that it "must be my way, or no way at all."

Thanks all the same, though.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[El Medico]

Yes, ok.
But now, are we going to believe the so called "official" truth?
After so many years?
What about Myong Jae Nam, Myung Kwang Sik, Bong Soo Han, Choi Yong Sul, etc... who already passed away... who is left to face and answer these "new questions" ?
Every human activity has money somehow, behind it. And with money, there's always politics. And now, are we going to face the new R.O.K. politics on K.T.M.A.s?
Remember, there is no objective truth... at least in history. It is impossible to know what really happened on those years, who was who, etc. The "truth" is an artificial human construct.
Maybe we should focus on our own knowledge, and who taught us all of these: our teachers. Respect.
Sorry,not sure what your point is.I merely showed that the titles of some books calling something "ancient" had not been changed over decades.Yeah,I know it's marketing.

Truth is an artificial human construct-well,I shan't get into semantical/philosophical debate. I will however use the words in a language as the language defines the meaning of said words.

From Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language-"truth ...c) the quality of being in accordance with experience,facts,or reality:conformity with facts."

No objective truth in history? What's that mean?It's not an objective truth that the Mongols established the Yuan dynasty,or that Japan was subjected to the detonations of two atomic bombs in 1945,or that the Army of Northern Virginia was defeated-(as in failed to accomplish their objective)- on the field in a three day battle in Pennsyvania,U.S.A. in July of 1863?

Your statement simply isn't truthful.Objectively speaking.:)

I am enjoying reading your posts in the discussions here.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled historical wrangling-something which is unfortunately all too common in many of our martial spheres.

[Bruce W Sims]

Agreed.... there is this blurry line where reporting history becomes an evaluation of history. For instance....it is a historical fact that the US military dropped atomic devices on two cities in Japan. In reporting that event a person might choose to represent it as an act of war---pure and simple--- while another might argue that it never occured because (as they see it) it was never an act of war but an act of mass-murder or even genocide.

In the case of the various issues that developed after WW II regarding Korean Military traditions there simply was no level playing field and a host of people were vying with each other for leadership and dollars. I think, in this way, one can say that various events took place, but the interpretation or "spin" on these events has, by now, eclipsed the actual events.

There is also one other piece that deserves recognition.

Over the last few decades people have come to the fore to dig-into these historical events. There have been huge debates (aka: "flame wars") about who did what and to whom. Sometimes there is a revelation that finally debunks this or that misrepresentation. All well and good. However, I have noticed that in the months following these "insights" the common practitioner gradually reasserts the original "faulty information" simply because it is more pleasing or "fun" to believe the incorrect information than accept the accurate information. Just people being people.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[antilie]

Background of Korean martial arts
YouTube - Background of Korean martial arts


The Korea tradition martial arts in Korea were created after WW2 entirely.

Or it is the copy of other countries.


ITF Hp
"Taekwondo is copying of Japanese Shotokan　Karate"



YouTube - （å*—幕）クãƒ*ド（KUMDO)ã�¯æ��é€*ã€�éŸ“å›½äº ºã‚‚èª�ã‚�ã�¦ã�„ã‚‹



YouTube - Hwarang History


Kumdo Fraud - Bonguk Geom
YouTube - Kumdo Fraud - Bonguk Geom

When the armed forces of Hideyoshi invaded and attacked to Korea, in a march by the foot, it is approximately 1 month in time when it needed it till they let soul fall.
（Distance from Pusan to Seoul is 800km.）

It proves that it was inferior in Korean military power.
The king escapes first.

Yu Song-Ron（柳　成龍）which at that time, was Korea bureaucrat leaves it.

There are 100 generals in Korea.
However, there is none of the generals training a soldier.

（Yu Song-Ron is an ancestor of Korean popular actor Ryu Si-wong.）

[Bruce W Sims]

Unfortunately, these are exactly the sorts of misrepresentations that make this thread necessary. Its not that your comments aqre totally inaccurate, but that are not totally accurate either and its this very problem that allows the Korean traditions to be misrepresented. It may be worthwhile to furnish some citations, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[antilie]

http://www.geocities.jp/bxninjin2004/themeoftoday_e/themeoftoday_ec.htm


As for Kim which wrote this sentence, house arrest seems to be in a state now by the Korea government.

In Korea, it is only Taekkyon to use the traditional dress.
However, the Korean who talked on a net said.
"Taekkyon is play of the old child"

By the way, in the historical materials in China, Japan ruled the Korean Peninsura southern part.
Silla and Kudara submitted a prince to Japan as a hostage.
This is the same in the Japanese historical materials.

However, I educate you to the child that Korea ruled China and Japan in Korea.



I report that the Chinese for the history forgery by Korea flies into a rage by the yesterday's Chinese NetNews.

As a famous example.

The Iris Festival clause is the festival that has begun to mourn over the death of the Chinese military commander.
There is this in Japan, and I change in a Japanese style, but it is China in the origin.

But I registered it with Unesco as culture of the Korea origin in Korea.

[Bruce W Sims]

This all very old information. You are mixing actions and motive of Post-WW II individuals and using that to denigrate 600 years of martial tradition. The educated people with whom I communicate already know what a mess the Occupation and Post-Occupation did to the Korean culture. These same folks also know that the Japanese played the same head-games with their own traditions as well. So did the Chinese. I guess I am failing to understand your point. Help?

BTW: I am also more than a little concerned that the videos that I watched are as uninformed against the Korean traditions as many modern Korean sources are for traditions. Do any of you folks ever actually get out of your apartments and research something on your own?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Hyeongsa]

The man in the second video is an angry little boy. I got to the "no horse kicking possible" explination, and I have to agree....however, it wasn't used for men going at full charge. It was used for horseman that were occupied at the moment while another man ran up and then kicked him off (stationary target more or less). I've watched a few of his rants and while he is educated about Japanese martial arts, he does not bother to look into the history of Korean martial arts. Sorry, this comment does not help the current discussion, but the man is dangerous because he has only half the facts.

[Hyung]

The interpretation of what (why) happened, is the "truth" I mean about a "human artificial construct", and this view is shared by many historians as well.
At the present post 2000 year era, as you had already post with your videos and links, it just seems a plain and full lie. But everything is according the glass and the eye of the beholder.
After a genocidal and cultural assimilation... a devastated country after WWII, trying to resume their own identity and culture just as many nations had done it before... you are no body to judge.
Even today, the Republic of Korea wouldn't be the same without Japan (past and present) influence.

[antilie]

After a genocidal and cultural assimilation...

I see.
By a massacre by Japan, the Korean population of the Korean Peninsura increased to double in 36 years.

[klaasb]

People have been fighting each other LONG before their was a notion of Japan, Nippon, Korea, Hanguk, Wa, Silla, China or whatever name people have given to the area they live in.
And trust me ... they will still be fighting long after the notion of Korea and Japan has disappeared.

These days armies happily buy weapons developed in other countries for several reasons. The quality is good, they are better than what can developed at home, they are cheap, etc. etc.
In the old days it wasn't much different. Hey, those Chinese guys have a very good way to drill their soldiers, lets do that as well. Hey those Portuguese people have nice guns, lets purchase a couple. The list goes on and on.
Their has been cross influencing for ages and it will be here for ages. Lucky us.

And yes, the people of the Joseon dynasty were not very militaristic, which influenced the way they practiced their army. The Joseon dynasty could survive for such a long period, not because it had a strong military but because it was a deep and very layered society. Maybe we can learn a lesson from that as well! Just has there are lesson we can learn from feudal Japan! Both good and bad, but lessons worth learning none the less.

[Bruce W Sims]

So is it the intention of participants here that we allow this discussion to degrade into judgements and fault-finding? Am I to understand that this is the best use we can make of this thread? For myself, I'd really rather get back to tracking the progression of military traditions through Korean history.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Hyung]

After a genocidal and cultural assimilation...

I see.
By a massacre by Japan, the Korean population of the Korean Peninsura increased to double in 36 years.

Come on... relax. That asseveration is completely unfair. Maybe America should still be an english colony.
I am not trying to do this a personal matter debate... but trying to label all koreans as plain and simple liars, as if it was a condition sine qua non or a neccesary feature of their ethnicity... hey, maybe you got some issues inside against korean people. What is it? Don't you like kimchi? I don't know what happened in Korea before WWII, I wasn't even born... but I DO know, what my grandparents (RIP both) told me and how they were in real life.

Hermann Hesse once said, that we don't like in others, something we don't like in ourselves... what is not inside us, we are indifferent.

Peace.

[Bruce W Sims]

Come on... relax. That asseveration is completely unfair. Maybe America should still be an english colony.
I am not trying to do this a personal matter debate... but trying to label all koreans as plain and simple liars, as if it was a condition sine qua non or a neccesary feature of their ethnicity... hey, maybe you got some issues inside against korean people. What is it? Don't you like kimchi? I don't know what happened in Korea before WWII, I wasn't even born... but I DO know, what my grandparents (RIP both) told me and how they were in real life.

Hermann Hesse once said, that we don't like in others, something we don't like in ourselves... what is not inside us, we are indifferent.



IMHO, the Korean people share a great many qualities with my own people from Eastern Europe. Oddly enough, Rusyns (AKA: Ruthenians) live in the more mountainous areas between Poland and Slovakia and down into the Ukraine. They tend not to accept outsiders easily, and very much keep to themselves. They have been over-run a great many times and at regular intervals beginning with the Romans and all the way down to the Soviets after WW II. Though the folks in the cities have prospered modestly, the rural population has led a hard-scrabble existence for centuries. Even during the great immigration between 1870 and 1930, these people found little relief when they came to North America, and clustered in tightly knit communities.

No real point other than to suggest that the Koreans are not unique in their behaviors.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[47MartialMan]

Therefore, is the general concensus with said info agree that most Korean arts are either Chinese or Japanese influenced?

[Bruce W Sims]

Therefore, is the general concensus with said info agree that most Korean arts are either Chinese or Japanese influenced?

Oh...I don't think there has ever been any doubt of that, 47. I think where things become extremely interesting is how the attitudes and values of the Korean people interfaced with the weapon (system) at hand. Let me offer an example of what I mean.

During the IMJIN WAERUM (1592-1598) the "official" Korean military got their bottom beat. The Bureacrats who had been given military postings because it was thought that they could do a better job were completely outclassed by the Japanese invader. However, it is amazing what the Korean people were able to do once they were rallied. The "righteous armies" may not have had fancy fighting skills nor pages of lineage but it astounding what they were able to accomplish against the Japanese once they got rolling. Sometimes I think we put an awful lot of emphasis on this or that practice, or this or that weapon and we forget that battles are won and lost in the mind.

Here in the US I often think of the Civil War General, U. S. Grant who graduated West Point at the bottom of his class and was, by all measures a failure in his life. Amazingly his one saving quality was his plodding, dogged persistence, which, in the end, un-did some of the finest officers the South had to offer. Personally I think the Koreans could make the same boast. And, I'm not talking about the effete YANGBAN but "Mr & Mrs Joe Average" who stuck it out when the government gave up. Just some odd thoughts.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[klaasb]

Just a few points I want to add.


1. China (not called 'land in the middle' for nothing) has always been the centre of Asia. Surrounding countries had to pay tribute to the Chinese emperor. In exchange they could share in the cultural richness of China.
The Korean peninsula being in between China and Japan got the best of both this way.

2. One reason for Joseon's military weakness is the fact that the second Joseon king, Jeongjong of Joseon, forbade private armies. From then on nobles were no longer allowed to have private armies. This is one of the reasons why the Joseon dynasty could exist for so long. There were no strong military elements in the country that could oppose the king. (Note that Henry VII of Tudor did something similar in England!)

The kings saw no need to poor a lot of money in maintaining an army now that peace within the borders was taken care for. With mountains in the north and water surrounding the rest of the peninsula there really was no need.

3. When the Japanese adopted Western-style military equipment after 1853 everybody agrees that is was the start of Japanese modernization. Why is it so strange that the Koreans adopted Chinese and Japanese strategy and weaponry centuries earlier? The Japanese saw that the Portuguese muskets were better than what they had and started using it.
When 17th century Dutchmen washed ashore in Korea, the king saw that he could use their knowledge about firearms and used it.
OF COURSE THEY DID! They would have been stupid if they hadn’t. Their safety depended on it.

Cultural exchange is not a crime it is a blessing!

[47MartialMan]

Oh...I don't think there has ever been any doubt of that, 47. I think where things become extremely interesting is how the attitudes and values of the Korean people interfaced with the weapon (system) at hand. Let me offer an example of what I mean.

During the IMJIN WAERUM (1592-1598) the "official" Korean military got their bottom beat. The Bureacrats who had been given military postings because it was thought that they could do a better job were completely outclassed by the Japanese invader. However, it is amazing what the Korean people were able to do once they were rallied. The "righteous armies" may not have had fancy fighting skills nor pages of lineage but it astounding what they were able to accomplish against the Japanese once they got rolling. Sometimes I think we put an awful lot of emphasis on this or that practice, or this or that weapon and we forget that battles are won and lost in the mind.

Here in the US I often think of the Civil War General, U. S. Grant who graduated West Point at the bottom of his class and was, by all measures a failure in his life. Amazingly his one saving quality was his plodding, dogged persistence, which, in the end, un-did some of the finest officers the South had to offer. Personally I think the Koreans could make the same boast. And, I'm not talking about the effete YANGBAN but "Mr & Mrs Joe Average" who stuck it out when the government gave up. Just some odd thoughts.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Thank you for your post. (The thanks button is not working for me at this moment)

If by your post you are statting that anyone leading a force, or revolution could previal with persistance, I agree upon this to an extent.

It is not that I am saying, that Korea had to "solely" rely on Chinese or Japanese training influences

[Bruce W Sims]

For me its a bit more than that. For instance the Japanese warrior was known to carry his pair of swords, but it was his approach to things that made him a nasty adversary. In like manner, when one goes around the world there are plenty of weapons systems, but the folks who make a real impression are the ones with a mental toughness, regardless of what they have in their hands.

The Korean people can be a pretty tough bunch, but we often get distracted from the common man by what the idiots running the country were doing. While the bums at the top were jerking each other around playing "king of the mountain" the common Korean person spent a lot of his time just trying to do the right thing. FWIW

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Hyung]

Just a few points I want to add.


1. China (not called 'land in the middle' for nothing) has always been the centre of Asia. Surrounding countries had to pay tribute to the Chinese emperor. In exchange they could share in the cultural richness of China.
The Korean peninsula being in between China and Japan got the best of both this way.

2. One reason for Joseon's military weakness is the fact that the second Joseon king, Jeongjong of Joseon, forbade private armies. From then on nobles were no longer allowed to have private armies. This is one of the reasons why the Joseon dynasty could exist for so long. There were no strong military elements in the country that could oppose the king. (Note that Henry VII of Tudor did something similar in England!)

The kings saw no need to poor a lot of money in maintaining an army now that peace within the borders was taken care for. With mountains in the north and water surrounding the rest of the peninsula there really was no need.

3. When the Japanese adopted Western-style military equipment after 1853 everybody agrees that is was the start of Japanese modernization. Why is it so strange that the Koreans adopted Chinese and Japanese strategy and weaponry centuries earlier? The Japanese saw that the Portuguese muskets were better than what they had and started using it.
When 17th century Dutchmen washed ashore in Korea, the king saw that he could use their knowledge about firearms and used it.
OF COURSE THEY DID! They would have been stupid if they hadn’t. Their safety depended on it.

Cultural exchange is not a crime it is a blessing!

Thanks for this post.
Is there any country in this Earth, without cultural exchange with other countries? Any one, completely 100% original...???
Sorry if I had sounded odd... but maybe is because I am a little tired to read so many posts in the many MA sites on the net about KTMAs as ineffective, useless, fake BS... because all "their martial tradition is based on a lie".
If Korea, is geographically placed between Japan and China... voilá!!! From whom is it going to be influenced by? yes indeed... Japan and China :)
As tkd was originated from Shotokan karate... but it evolved in something very different from it. As modern hkd from DRAJJ. As another example, BJJ was originated from pre WWII Kodokan judo... it evolved in something very different.
That "korean" difference in their approach to MAs, is what we should focus on.
Now, what's that "korean touch" in MAs? Can you describe it? Take it if like it, leave it if not.
Best regards.

PS: sorry for my bad english... not a native speaker.

[Obewan]

For me its a bit more than that. For instance the Japanese warrior was known to carry his pair of swords, but it was his approach to things that made him a nasty adversary. In like manner, when one goes around the world there are plenty of weapons systems, but the folks who make a real impression are the ones with a mental toughness, regardless of what they have in their hands.

The Korean people can be a pretty tough bunch, but we often get distracted from the common man by what the idiots running the country were doing. While the bums at the top were jerking each other around playing "king of the mountain" the common Korean person spent a lot of his time just trying to do the right thing. FWIW

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Speaking of that Bruce, I came across this gem while "doing my homework" as it were. http://www.koreanhistoryproject.org/author.htm Check it out.

[klaasb]

Therefore, is the general concensus with said info agree that most Korean arts are either Chinese or Japanese influenced?

Most Japanese arts MA were influenced by Chinese styles as well and certainly influenced by Chinese writing about MA. Japanese culture has been influenced heavily by Korea. The raids of Japanese pirates on Chinese shores forced the Chinese to rethink their defense strategies .... the list goes on and on.

Korean writing about martial arts tend to be reflections on earlier works and cataloguing earlier works. Much as you would expect from a Confucian culture.
Japanese writing on MA very much is about reflecting on ones deep self, as you would expect from a Zen Buddhists.

I think the bigger problem is that we Westerners have a certain expectation of what a martial art should be. These expectations are heavily influenced by the way the Japanese martial arts tradition. Judo and Karate came to the West much earlier than their Korean and Chinese counterparts.
The notion that the other cultures treat their martial arts traditions differently than what we considered to be the golden rule (ie. Japanese traditions) only seems to settle in very very slowly.

On top of that, the Korean martial arts tradition that existed before the Japanese occupation was completely vanished after WWII and had to be reinvented.
If you would ever start a study in cultural anthropology and would look up 'reinvented culture' it would say: see Korea. It is the school example.

Another thing that I would like to touch up on, is the fact that within a culture several martial art traditions might co-exist. You would have the MA tradition of the army, family traditions, clan traditions, buddhist temple traditions etc. etc. in some cultures all of these traditions might exist in other cultures just a few.

[klaasb]

Thanks for this post.
Is there any country in this Earth, without cultural exchange with other countries? Any one, completely 100% original...???

Except for the first ape who took up a stick to beat somebody else with, probably not ;-)

I am not a native English speaker either, so don't worry ;-)

[Bruce W Sims]

Most Japanese arts MA were influenced by Chinese styles as well and certainly influenced by Chinese writing about MA. Japanese culture has been influenced heavily by Korea. The raids of Japanese pirates on Chinese shores forced the Chinese to rethink their defense strategies .... the list goes on and on.

Korean writing about martial arts tend to be reflections on earlier works and cataloguing earlier works. Much as you would expect from a Confucian culture.
Japanese writing on MA very much is about reflecting on ones deep self, as you would expect from a Zen Buddhists.

I think the bigger problem is that we Westerners have a certain expectation of what a martial art should be. These expectations are heavily influenced by the way the Japanese martial arts tradition. Judo and Karate came to the West much earlier than their Korean and Chinese counterparts.
The notion that the other cultures treat their martial arts traditions differently than what we considered to be the golden rule (ie. Japanese traditions) only seems to settle in very very slowly. On top of that, the Korean martial arts tradition that existed before the Japanese occupation was completely vanished after WWII and had to be reinvented.
If you would ever start a study in cultural anthropology and would look up 'reinvented culture' it would say: see Korea. It is the school example.

Another thing that I would like to touch up on, is the fact that within a culture several martial art traditions might co-exist. You would have the MA tradition of the army, family traditions, clan traditions, buddhist temple traditions etc. etc. in some cultures all of these traditions might exist in other cultures just a few.

Absolutely, positively!! I think that in reflecting on the Korean martial traditions there are two main stumbling-blocks that repeatedly sabotage anyone's efforts. You have named one of them.

I wish I had a penny everytime someone uses Japanese or Chinese nomenclature to identify Korean practices. I wish I had a penny every time someone characterizes a Korean approach in terms of attitudes, institutions or constructs of the Japanese or Chinese. The thing that makes something "Korean" is not what they do but the way that they do it and their reasons for doing it that way. You have to take the Korean approach for what it is. For instance it makes no sense to talk about lineage as in the case of the Japanese RYU-HA system because the Korean do not have, nor have they ever had such an approach. Its not part of their thinking. The same goes for the "warrior-class" thinking as in the case of the Japanese warrior and his Code of BUSHIDO. Once again the Korean not only didn't have this, but had Neo-Confucianism which labored against it!

The other major stumbling block is the avoidance of dealing with Korean practices without a veneer of emotion.

Since so much of what is thrown around in KMA is based on oral tradition there is a good deal of faith involved. This sets the stage for judgements and abreactions. A person who takes an intellectual approach is immediately taken as disrespecting his teacher and art. Stark comments about Korean culture are judged "xenophobic" or even racist. For myself I have a deep and abiding respect for the Korean people who I think have raised "survival" to an artform. Unfortunately that love does not often generalize to the government or many of the Korean institutions. Putting that to one side, though, it is still important to examine things such as history and behaviors with clear-eyed objectivity and I just don't think there are many ---quite frankly---who are up to it.

Anyhow...these are my thoughts.... as always YMMV. :)

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[antilie]

The Korea government teaches children only political thought of the Korea government.

With the Korean school textbook of 70's, I seem to have written it in this way.
"Korea modernized by Japan"

Now.

"Japan took all away from Korea"

The current Korean uses facilities and the building which Japan left in Korea.
（The European destroyed all the things which they prepared into the Asian colony）

Korea was not a battlefield in WW2.

After WW2, Korea began the genocide that a Korean murdered a Korean.
The Korean textbook seems to write the Korean War that many foreign soldiers died for Korea only in only one line.

There "was war"

Korean most think Korean War to be Japan and a Korean fight by the investigation of the Korea daily newspaper.


The picture of the times when a Korean was ruled cruelly by Japan.

YouTube - 1931å¹´ã�®äº¬åŸŽï¼ˆã‚½ã‚¦ãƒ«ï¼‰ã�®æ˜*åƒ�

In addition, there were plural Korean generals in the former Japanese armed forces.

With former colonel of Korea Air Force, the officer of the Korea economic world says by a Korean TV interview five years ago.

In the Japanese armed forces, a Japanese senior officer recommended me to the Japanese military academy.
For me who was the son of the poor farmer, Japan did not discriminate.

[Bruce W Sims]

I'm not getting your point. Of what are you working to convince people?

The clip has no credits so I have no idea who produced it or why?

What is the point you are working to make?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[klaasb]

We wants us to believe that the time of the Japanese colonization of Korea was a good time for Korea. Something like that.

[Bruce W Sims]

Well..... he has his work cut-out for him. And if that truly is his agenda I'm afraid I'm a lost cause in his book.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Hyung]

[QUOTE=antilie;1074418030]The Korea government teaches children only political thought of the Korea government.

With the Korean school textbook of 70's, I seem to have written it in this way.
"Korea modernized by Japan"

Now.

"Japan took all away from Korea"
..............................

Well, then why do you think the Korea government began this anti-japanese feeling politics teaching to the newest generations of korean children?

My grandfather (RIP), was fluent in writing and speaking japanese. He grew up as a children during japanese preWWII Korea occupation. They were not allowed to speak or write hangug-mal (language). Japan has always coveted korean land... they really wanted to incorporate koreans as if they were japanese, changing their names to japanese ones, etc.

Do you really believe that a forced conquest, military occupation and cultural domain is in anyway voluntary and peaceful?

To the westerners, we seem very much alike. But, not only culturally and ethnically, but even racially, korean phenotypes are different than japanese ones.

Just some thoughts.

[Bruce W Sims]

I'm really, really tired of all of this toxic bashing, back and forth. Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing if all of the Koreans who hate Japanese and all of the Japanese who hate Koreans could get locked up in a gym somewhere with a crate of baseball bats.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[47MartialMan]

I'm really, really tired of all of this toxic bashing, back and forth. Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing if all of the Koreans who hate Japanese and all of the Japanese who hate Koreans could get locked up in a gym somewhere with a crate of baseball bats.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

You are forgetting the Chinese vs the Japanese, and the Vietnamese vs Burmese, and all of these vs the dirtyknees, which can put it all to ease if it wasnt for a cultural disease, for anyone to say what they please. Geez :zzz:

[antilie]

Hyung>

Meanings are different in "the merger "&" colony".

By Japan, Korea became independent from China.

However, in Korea, a Yin princess privatized national budget. Therefore Korea failed economically because Korea had sold national assets to China and Russia.
Therefore Korea demanded help from Japan. (refused from the Europe)

Japan takes nothing up from Korea.
In Korea before Korea being annexed to Japan, the Hangul Alphabet was a letter prohibited for a duke.

The Hangul Alphabet and Japanese are written jointly to the textbook which Japan published in Korea.

A Korean hoped for the Japanese reputation.
And it was charged.
In addition, there was the Korean who did not have the Japanese name to a general of the Japanese armed forces, a Japanese Diet member.
The Prince of Korea does not have the Japanese name, too.

The Korean living in Japan insists in this way now.
It "is racial discrimination to report a Korean criminal by the real name written in the passport"

[antilie]

I'm sorry. blues.

I say honestly, and I am tired from a history question and answer with the Korean, too.

However, for them, it is spread to the world as something about everything their lie unless a Japanese continues saying a fact.

The Korea government provides Korea cyberterrorism group VANK with national budget for propaganda of the Korea government.
（VANK stopped an American server by terror attack last year）

In fact, in Korea, the manipulation is considered to be an effort to the success.

The thing which the Korea nation may tamper with by a Korean law.
A figure. Lines in palm. A name. A birthday.

[klaasb]

Dear Antille,

sorry, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree here.
It might come as a surprise to you, but WE KNOW that not everything that happened during the Japanese occupation was wrong. WE KNOW that the Japanese are NOT the only one to blame. WE KNOW that there were Korean coloborators, WE KNOW that the Joseon government in the last centuries was weak and was an easy prey for others.

To be short: I don't think in absolutes of right and wrong, black and white ... there are always two sides to the story.

Be careful though not to mistake the Korean government for the Korean people.
Also, it was not prohibited for a 'duke' (yangban) to write in hangul, it was looked down upon. That is something completely different.

While I am the first one to admit that within the Joseon government and among the Korean people there were people who eagerly worked with Japan, you will have to admit that Japan wasn't exactly the bringer of peace and glory in the first half of the twentieth century.

[antilie]

"Japan was not a pacifism nation"

I think that the reason that you think about like that is caused by the Korea government and the propaganda by the white man nation.

In the time, colony security by the white man nation is conquest by the military power entirely. It was common globally.

There was not the merger that observed international regulations almost time of the Korea merger by Japan in the white man nation.

It is Korean responsibility that Korea became impoverished nationally.
In Korea of the 19th century, Yangban which was non-working class seems to have increased to 40% of the Korea population.
And the Korean literacy rate was equal to or less than 5%.

Kim Okkyun which appealed to a Korean for a Korean political reform and the modernization was tortured to death by Yangban.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX1TP0vGW3c

[Bruce W Sims]

I'm sorry. blues.

I say honestly, and I am tired from a history question and answer with the Korean, too.

However, for them, it is spread to the world as something about everything their lie unless a Japanese continues saying a fact.

The Korea government provides Korea cyberterrorism group VANK with national budget for propaganda of the Korea government.
（VANK stopped an American server by terror attack last year）

In fact, in Korea, the manipulation is considered to be an effort to the success.

The thing which the Korea nation may tamper with by a Korean law.
A figure. Lines in palm. A name. A birthday.

Thanks, Antilie:

Just to be sure that I understand your point of view, please tell me what role you believe that the Japanese played in the first half of the 20th Century.

I am reading a lot of comments about what the "white man" did in Asia. Please explain what the role of the Japanese nation was from 1868 to 1950.

Thanks.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[antilie]

In this earthquake, I thank for all countries which offered support to Japan.

[Hyung]

Antilie... it's hard when you grew up with some preconceived ideas, to change. I now, do understand some of your point of views.
Not black and white, as klaasb already has said.
History has heroes, heroes and legends, all are originally made to define a nation identity... obviously, as the powerful upper class wants to. All are human constructs.
But this site, is originally for martial arts. This one, specially for history of traditional korean martial arts.
In your opinion, what makes a korean art, such?


Maybe, nothing at all... huh?

[antilie]

I asked Koreans.

In your country, is there the historical famous martial artist such as Musashi and Chiba?

Are there the historical materials mentioned about a martial art in Korea?

The evidence that a Korean shows is the same as this thread.

Even if the testimony of the founder of the taekwondo that "taekwondo is copying of Karate" is mentioned in HP of ITF, the Korean does the claim.
It "is Taekkyon in the origin of the taekwondo"

The legend is a historical fact in Korea.

The Korea government announces that there is the evidence that Tangun existed.

Sayaga possessed a Korea-style family register. However, in Korea, Sayaga is General Japanese who went over from Japan to Korea with 3,000 soldiers.

I had forgotten which Korean document it was, but Korea was going to make the armed forces similar to Japan after Imjinwar.
However, therefore the nation who gathered seems to have been only an old man and an infant.

[antilie]

Japan did not want to become the European colony.

The Japanese-style rule that Japan performed for Asia is different from the European style.

The rule that Europe performed in Asia was infrastructure maintenance only for white sake.
And it is the enthrallment of the local person.

In the case of Japan, it is the modernization of the country itself.
It is the same as the development that Japan performed for Korea.

The improvement of the literacy rate by the school education.
A food increase in production by the farmland development.
Improvement of the hygiene environment by the maintenance of water and sewage.
The adoption of the local person as the public employee.
Upbringing of the export industry by the factory construction.
It is the foundation of the defense organization by the person from spot by training you to a local person militarily.

In Japan, Japan understood that there was not the strength of a nation only as for governing it in the Asian whole area.
Therefore I was going to let you continue self-government by the spot person even if Japan disappeared from the country in Japan by educating the people of the Asian country.

[Bruce W Sims]

Japan did not want to become the European colony.

The Japanese-style rule that Japan performed for Asia is different from the European style.

The rule that Europe performed in Asia was infrastructure maintenance only for white sake.
And it is the enthrallment of the local person.

In the case of Japan, it is the modernization of the country itself.
It is the same as the development that Japan performed for Korea.

The improvement of the literacy rate by the school education.
A food increase in production by the farmland development.
Improvement of the hygiene environment by the maintenance of water and sewage.
The adoption of the local person as the public employee.
Upbringing of the export industry by the factory construction.
It is the foundation of the defense organization by the person from spot by training you to a local person militarily.

In Japan, Japan understood that there was not the strength of a nation only as for governing it in the Asian whole area.
Therefore I was going to let you continue self-government by the spot person even if Japan disappeared from the country in Japan by educating the people of the Asian country.

Yes.....this is the highly sanitized version of what Japan was about before and during the Second World War. As in the case of Germany, it is almost impossible to find people in Japan who support how their country behaved. Just as you will not find people who will admit to be a German NAZI, in Japan you will not find people who were part of the Biological Experiments in Manchuria, or members of the AMUR River Association, or participated in the atrocities in Nanking. Today Japanese and German children are only taught about how noble the intentions of inviduals in the past were.

You are a good citizen of your country and are to be commended for wanting people to see Japan in a wholesome light. I have taught and studied History and find that you are missing or ignoring some important facts.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[klaasb]

Also just because the martial tradition of Korea is different from that of Japan doesn't mean that one tradition is better than the other.

The martial tradition of India is different from that of the Netherlands, yet you never hear people argue about that, do you?

[Hyung]

Also just because the martial tradition of Korea is different from that of Japan doesn't mean that one tradition is better than the other.

The martial tradition of India is different from that of the Netherlands, yet you never hear people argue about that, do you?

Yes, and I can also say that, even though they are originated from any other place, they evolved and become unique. Traditional korean martial arts, are different. It is a natural phenomena. As some Japanese martial traditions came from Okinawa, and these from China... finally, they were unique japanese, and different from their original roots.
Sorry again for my ingrish! :D

[antilie]

According to the note of Mao Zedong, as for the beginning of the Manchurian Incident, it is assumed that it was the Soviet Union.

The Nanjing case has many forgeries by China, and a fact is uncertain.
The quantity of China increases whenever I announce the number of people of the victim in Nanjing.
When a claim by China was terrible, the quantity of the Chinese victim was 3 times of the Nanjing citizen.


There were a regular soldier and a soldier of the temporary commandeering in the middle nation's armed forces.
The regular soldier makes a temporary soldier private clothes and does it when I let I shoot at them from behind and charge for Japan force.

The Japanese armed forces gave notice of the attack date and time to Nanjing to a citizen beforehand, and the citizen was going to shelter.
It is said to have escaped by the citizen a Chinese soldier to make the citizen a shield.

Now. There seems to be a lot the family who continues living in Nanjing more than 200 years from the ancestral times.

[Thomas]

Japan did not want to become the European colony.

The Japanese-style rule that Japan performed for Asia is different from the European style.

The rule that Europe performed in Asia was infrastructure maintenance only for white sake.
And it is the enthrallment of the local person.

In the case of Japan, it is the modernization of the country itself.
It is the same as the development that Japan performed for Korea.

The improvement of the literacy rate by the school education.
A food increase in production by the farmland development.
Improvement of the hygiene environment by the maintenance of water and sewage.
The adoption of the local person as the public employee.
Upbringing of the export industry by the factory construction.
It is the foundation of the defense organization by the person from spot by training you to a local person militarily.

In Japan, Japan understood that there was not the strength of a nation only as for governing it in the Asian whole area.
Therefore I was going to let you continue self-government by the spot person even if Japan disappeared from the country in Japan by educating the people of the Asian country.
Yeah... Japan brought some modernization to Korea.

However, once you add in the attempted cultural genocide of the Koreans (language, religion, culture, and even their family names), the theft and rape of the young women (so-called "comfort women"), the forced conscription of young men, the destruction of religious and historical sites, and the rape of Korea's natural and human resources, I'd say Korea got the short end of the stick.

Now, if you wish to bring up Nanking, I'd say be even more careful. The rape, mutilation, and torture in this case exceeded any sort of military justification.

[klaasb]

Antilie, do you even read the things we say?

[antilie]

[comfort women]

This is just a prostitute.
In Burma, the Allied Forces hears them.

It is a Korean and a Japanese to have employed them. Of course they are the women who applied for advertising in a newspaper in Korea.

Japan managed whether such an institution observed a rule.
And the supplier who found a woman by a kidnapping and fraud was punished by Japan.

YouTube - 従�慰安婦性奴隷
This is a video by a Korean press-agenting propaganda of the Korea government to Japan.
This, the rule in the comfort station is written to the video.
According to it, the soldier needed the permit from a senior officer.
They were able to refuse a soldier after having received money.

Their salary was 5 times of the soldier.
In 1970's, the Korean woman who was a charity dame demanded the return of the savings of the charity dame times from Japan. It was equivalent to an amount of money of 1,000,000 dollars. But Japan returned an amount of money that I stayed and am cooking for her account record to her because I changed a currency unit after WW2.

In the United Nations, the woman who was a charity dame insisted on forcible escort by Japan.
However, their testimony turned big every the degree.
Therefore, the United Nations ignored them.

The testimony of the Korean university professor who investigated the forcible escort of the charity dame by Japan by a request from the Korea government.

I stopped investigation about the charity dame in three years. I scanned all documents, all testimony.
However, there was not one objective evidence that a charity dame was taken.

When the Korea government looked for the reason that was convenient for Korea to criticize Japan, I understood it.


There is not that Japan imposed duty of the draft on a Korean.
All the Japanese nations were assigned to duty of the labor by "National Mobilization Act".

September, 1944. By the decrease of young work force, Japan escalated the application of the law to a Korean.
It is labor not military service.

Do you think that you give the forced soldier whom you commandeered a fighter?

Is it slaughter of the culture?

I think that culture to disappear in 35 years it is the same as there not being it from the beginning.
If Japan takes all culture, Japan prohibits the Korean race clothes.

There is the culture that revived after WW2 by the Korean culture that Japan prohibited.
It is "a weak constitution dance".
This is Korean public dancing to sneer a leper.
The Korean dances it in spite of being a laughter now.

In addition, about the torture, Manager Korean of the prisoners' camp is executed in Tokyo trial from the Allied Forces by "prisoner abuse".


You please explain "the Korea Operation Army".

[Bruce W Sims]

According to the note of Mao Zedong, as for the beginning of the Manchurian Incident, it is assumed that it was the Soviet Union.

The Nanjing case has many forgeries by China, and a fact is uncertain.
The quantity of China increases whenever I announce the number of people of the victim in Nanjing.
When a claim by China was terrible, the quantity of the Chinese victim was 3 times of the Nanjing citizen.


There were a regular soldier and a soldier of the temporary commandeering in the middle nation's armed forces.
The regular soldier makes a temporary soldier private clothes and does it when I let I shoot at them from behind and charge for Japan force.

The Japanese armed forces gave notice of the attack date and time to Nanjing to a citizen beforehand, and the citizen was going to shelter.
It is said to have escaped by the citizen a Chinese soldier to make the citizen a shield.

Now. There seems to be a lot the family who continues living in Nanjing more than 200 years from the ancestral times.

Aaaa....no. Now that is just plain wrong.

The attack on Nanking was known to the wealthier Chinese who had the ability to leave the city and relocate to other places. The Middle Class and the poor who could not leave the city were left to fend for themselves.

The Japanese, by their own admission, bayonetted, raped, looted and shot Chinese nationals. Such atrocities as herding people into caves and setting off explosives as well as herding people into pits and burying them alive were filmed by the Japanese military. Subsequent debriefing by authorities revealed that the Japanese soldiers conducted themselves as they did because they were given to believe that no consequences would result from their superiors. Further, while Nanking is the single best example, it was not, by any means the only such event.

Speaking for myself, I thoroughly resent your attempt to revise or mitigate the behaviors of the Japanese forces. Nor am I ignorant of the political atmosphere in Post-1867 Japan that produced the attitudes that made such behavior possible.

Lastly, I hope you appreciate the latitude you are getting in being able to spout your un-informed opinion here. You are enjoying a freedom of expression, here and now, that would have been both unthinkable and impossible in the culture you are working so hard to enoble.

BTW: I would walk very carefully around the issue of "Comfort women". There has been a lot of evidence revealed about the treatment of these women, how they were recruited, how they were treated and what became of many of them.

Regards.

[antilie]

Your answer about the Korea Operation Army?

Whenever they insist a claim by the Chinese government and a claim by Comfort women, you should think about the contents being changed.

In the modern history, it is only Korea force to have performed the construction and the management of the "Comfort women" institution by the armed forces directly. （For U.S.A.）


The Korean thought is egocentric.

You will think as of the present.

For the Japanese earthquake damage, Japan has much support from the world.
The Japanese thanks you for it very much. Thank you.

Korea dispatched five search parties to Japan without getting the consent of the Japanese Government.
About it, I do not criticize it.

However, Korea was going to support the distinction with it.
For "Japanese peace and order maintenance, Korea dispatches 2,000 Korea marines"

Peace and order maintenance in Japan is work of the Japanese police. It is not work of Korea force.



The lie history of the Korean traditional martial art is a historical fact in Korea so that you assume the lie testimony of the Korean charity dame a historical fact.

Many amateur martial artists raise false tradition and career in the world and conduct a a martial art business.
Korea does the lie at a national level.

The history of the taekwondo that Korea submitted to IOC as for the reason why taekwondo was excluded by the medal sport of the Olympics and quantity of the competition population as for the lie is because was it.

In Korean historical materials, the Korea tradition martial arts are only bows.
Korean Silm is not recognized as a traditional martial art in Korea.
Silm does not have the protection from the government, too.

Silm seems to have been still performed in Korea from old days.
However, Korea government and Korean most are totally not interested in it.

[Bruce W Sims]

Continuing to respond to your uninformed statements and attempts to rationalize Japan's crimes can serve no useful purpose. I have nothing more to say to you.

Regards.

[antilie]

Japan is a criminal for the white man who lost a colony in Asia.
They instilled Japan in the world as a criminal by their strategy.

Germany forced the responsibility on Nazi.
If Japan is a criminal, Germany and Italy are criminals.


I want to ask you.
Was the colonialism by the white man a right act?


It is only China and Korea to call Japan a criminal in Asia.

[SeongIn]

Stop trying to shift blame elsewhere and stop changing history.

[klaasb]

You can't blame people of today for the acts of people of yesterday.
So NO, we don't blame you personally for the acts of your forefathers. Just as I don't blame the Germans of today for the acts of Hitler.
However if there are modern Germans who deny that the holocaust took place, I can blame them for that. Denying the holocaust is a criminal offense in many countries.

Again NO, you are not a criminal, nor is Japan a criminal, for the acts committed 100 years ago.

[Bruce W Sims]

Stop trying to shift blame elsewhere and stop changing history.

I think there is a kind of "redeeming value" to hearing a person go on like this, though you may not agree and probably neither of us like it very much. As a history teacher I have often found myself musing about terrible times in Human history and wondered what sort of thinking made such things "OK" to do. For instance, Klaas mentioned the European Holocaust, to which we could also add the Cambodian Holocaust and the genocide in Rawanda---hell, we could go back to the events in the American West during the 18th and 19th. Century, right?

For me, the pivotal hallmark seems to be when folks stop looking at the targeted individuals as Human individuals and start using non-Human labels. For instance, here in the States it has become quite fashionable to identify people as various kinds of "terrorists" and "extremists". During WW II the enemies were "dirty japs" and "krauts". During Korea and Vietnam the enemies were "gooks", "slopes" and "dinks". In Iraq the enemies were "rag-heads" and "camel-jockies"----anything but individuals who wanted many of the same things that you and I think and dream of.

Personally I think THAT is the downside to a discussion like this. Its too easy to get sucked into trading insults back and forth with this fellow and start using labels. Fact is, from what I can tell, this guy wants these things to be true and really doesn't care if they are or not. In other words we are talking to a person motivated not by fact but by belief and that means we will never get him to view things differently.

I think if I were Japanese there would be some level of embarrassment or shame that my own people had come out of such a terrible part of themselves, and for such pedestrian reasons, resulting in these sorts of reckonings for the foreseeable future. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Bruce W Sims]

KORYO Dynasty (918 to 1170):

Arose from the fragments of the (Unified) Silla kingdom, the influence of Chinas' "Five Dynasties" and the influx of refugees from Pohai (713-926), a Manchurian state overrun by the Khitan. Issues with the KHITAN and the JURCHEN across the northern border set the military nature of the KORYO dynasty from the start. The first of three eras for this dynasty were characterized by a strong monarchy and the growth of governmental structure and attempts to separate the inter-relationships between the “scholar” and “military man” with the introduction of the KWA KUH or national civil exam (958). The attempts by Kwanjong (949-975) to reform government away from the influence of the head-rank six lineages initially fail, but, when continued by Songjong (981-997), introduced new clan influences to the monarchy such as the (Ansan) Kim and (Inchon) Yi families. Centered at its capital in KAESONG, the KORYO dynasty was characterized by a highly structured series of "orders" each with its population who inherited into each set strata and was governed at the top by the "Three Chancelleries or SAMSONG.

Under Songjong, the military is also revamped and re-structured (919AD) to be comprised of two "Guard" units (Eung-Yang ; lit: "hawks on the wing" and Yong-ho lit: "dragons and tigers") and six "Divisions" (Jwa, Uwi, Sin-ho-wi, Hung-wi-wi, Kum-o-wi and Kam-mun-wi) each composed of a regiment of about 1000 men each and manned by professional soldiers, with allocation of land allotments used for compensation for service. Enlistments are maintained by recruitment, usually among the peasantry, and while examinations are held for civil positions, examinations for military positions will not be established until closer to the end of the dynasty under King Kongyang. Failings of the primarily infantry-focused Six Divisions against the cavalry-strong Jurchen, will cause King Sukchong (1095-1105) to create the Extraordinary Military Corps or PYOLMUBAN, as a special military force separate from the Six Divisions, and along with cavalry and infantry, a unit is heavily manned by Buddhist warrior monks, and named the "Subdue Demons Corps" or HANGMAGUN. The steady growth of landownership and commercial ventures by Buddhist monasteries as well as their places as landlords and slave-owners required that the monasteries train their monks in military arts as well as the Buddhist faith to maintain security for their holdings. Use of these warrior-monks for the campaigns by the government reinforced the relationships between the monarchy and the Buddhist faith. King Ye Jong established the KUK CHA GAM (national university) in 1109 which includes a course in MOO HAK or martial studies, but contention between scholar and military factions allowed this course of studies to decline with time.

Source: Korea: The Mongol Invasions; W.E. Henthorne; EJ Brill, Leiden; 1963


BTW: The following developments in Northern China during this period could not have failed to have had an impact on Korean practices of the time.

Following the fall of the Uyghur Empire in 850AD, and during the Chinese Song Dynasty (960 to 1279AD) the HUI, emigrated from Central Asia and eventually made permanent settlements, intermingling with the various Chinese peoples. As a result Islam to spread to various parts of China. By the 13th Century, the HUI were widely scattered throughout China, but primarily in the northern regions, especially Henan , Hebei , Shangtung, and Shaanxi provinces.
The HUI quickly absorbed Chinese WU WEI (such as Shuai Chiao or Chinese Grappling, Pao Quan, Tong Bei Quan, Liu Ho Quan, Tai Tzu Chang Quan, Ba Ji Quan, Pi Qua Quan, etc.). Eventually they developed their own unique styles of WU WEI such as Cha Quan, Hua Quan, 10 Routine Tan Tui, Liu Lu Duan Quan, Toi Quan, and Yong Chan Quan. The HUI chiefs called upon their people to learn wu shu as a "holy practice" in order to help foster discipline and bravery during their struggle for survival. Many of the HUI joined the Chinese military and had illustrious careers in it, often rising to the rank of General. Also, many HUI were fiercely loyal about supporting the various Chinese Emperors, even though the HUI were of foreign origin. After the Mongolians had taken over China, forming the Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368), many Chinese loyalists schemed to bring back the throne to China. A peasant uprising finally succeeded in uniting the Chinese people against their Mongol invaders. The rebellion was led by Zhu Yuan Zhang, who toppled the Mongolian imperial court and founded the much beloved Ming Dynasty, becoming its first emperor. Fighting with him were some of China's most famous generals (i.e., Chang Yu Chun, Hu Da Hai, Mu Ying, Lan Yu, Feng Sheng, and Ding De Xing), who were all HUI Moslem wu shu experts. Chang Yu Chan became famous for founding a spear fighting method that is still taught today, the famous "kai ping qiang fa".
In addition, about 1116 AD., Aguda of the Jurchen (b. 1068) becomes the first emperor of the JiN Dynasty. He expands and standardizes the MOUKE System. The MOUKE System is the primary organizational structure in which a village community is assessed as 100 households. Each household provides one fighter, sword, armor and two to four horses. Ten MOUKE are taken as MENGAN (lit: "one thousand"). Aguda enlarges the MOUKE to 300 households, though the military numbers stay the same. As the Jurchen give way to the Manchu, this organizational system will become the model for the Manchu "Banner System" organized along decimal lines of 100 - 1,000 - 10,000.

Source: Imperial China: 900 to 1800; F.W. Mote; Harvard University Press, 1999; pp 787 – 789

Just trying to get us back on track.
Best Wishes,
Bruce

[antilie]

Is there objective evidence to prove the fact that there was a holocaust by Japan?

As for the European reporters who resided in Nanjing, nobody looks at the slaughter spot in those days.
They do not hear the scream of people either.

They heard the story from a Chinese and testify that I wrote the article.

In China, the victims in Nanjing increased almost every year whenever I said Nanjing case.
It finally became 760,000 people.
As for the quantity, that's all. the double of then Nanjing inhabitants

Of course China easily withdrew it.

[antilie]

The buck-passing is the Korean proud skill.

At the time of Korean financial crisis, the European bank withdrew from Korea.

The Japanese bank supported Korea till the last.
When a Japanese bank withdrew from Korea, the Korea government cried.
It "is Japanese responsibility to have caused a Korean economic crisis"

For it, it was Kim Daejung to have argued (President of Chino Korea).
"Japan is the country which supported Korea till the last"

Alternatively, there are martial art, rocket, movie, などで, a lot of examples of the buck-passing to another person by Korea.

When a Korean scholar and an intellectual study historical materials and pointed out a lie of the Korea government, the person is criticized socially.

[Bruce W Sims]

Yes... yes.... and it seems that making excuses has become a "Japanese" skill.

In the United States we also have people who want to make it seem like our country never did bad things.

Why don't you just accept that Japan did terrible things and learn not to do those things again?

Its embarrassing for you to try and pretend that terrible things did not happen, or that there was a very good reason for doing such things.

All the people who witnessed what Japan did can't be liars. All the people who saw what Japan did can't be wrong.

Japan did terrible things and you can't pretend that it did not happen.

[Hyeongsa]

Japan was on a war path and raped an entire culture. Thankfully, there were people that were gutsy enough that continued practicing Korean martial arts, which survived to today. There are martial arts such as KONG SOO DO which is Japanese Karate with a Korean name. Is that wrong? No! We're non-Koreans practicing a Korean art, is that weird? What would be weird is if I say that KUK SOOL originated in these United States. LMAO

There are people that lie about some of Korean martial arts, saying it wasn't influenced by anything. But there is more than enough proof saying that our form Woon Ohk Hyung is actually from a temple located in the region of ancient Koguryo and was inspired by Chinese KUNG FU practicioners!

The simple truth is this: Korea has its martial arts, Japan has theirs, and China theirs. To debate over wether or not Japan DID do horrible things (when everyone knows they did) is just ridiculous. Systems such as: Sipalki, Taekyon, Kuk Sool, Hwarang Do, Muye 24 Ban, and others are testemants to Korean training methods, regardless of where it originated.

[antilie]

Is it a thing about Nanjing?

How many eyewitnesses are there?

In reality, I testify that many journalists who resided in Nanjing do not watch a battle.

All the private citizens of Nanjing sheltered to Shanghai.

China insisted that "Japan killed 20,000 Chinese" in a meeting in the League of Nations after Nanjing fell.
However, the League of Nations assumes that there "is not such a fact".

There is that Nanjing case became the topic after WW2.
The photograph carried by NYT regards it as falsehood in U.S.A.

1937. The journalist of NYT which was in Nanjing testifies that there was not the barbarity by Japan then.

It is said that Tokyo trial is a farce in Asia.
As for it, a white man made Japan a criminal one-sidedly.

[antilie]

Japan was on a war path and raped an entire culture.

Then why is there a weak constitution dance in Korea?
It assumed that Japan "insulted the weak" and prohibited it.

There is much traditional culture in Taiwan where the rule by Japan is longer than Korea.

We're non-Koreans practicing a Korean art, is that weird?

Yes.
You please study the right history.

The Korean martial art is connected directly with money-making entirely.
And they add the false history to take out occultness.


YouTube - Martial arts and cult 2 日本語å*—幕

The suspect of this video seems to teach a martial art called ONMUDO（陰陽道） now.
It is Chinese astronomy. "the Yin Yang method＝陰陽道".
In Japan, it increased many things and developed as black art.

It is the evidence that a Korean does not have respect for the traditional culture that use the name of the Yin Yang method (onmudo) irrelevant to a martial art for a martial art.ONMUDO now.

In the origin of "the Yin Yang method＝陰陽道", it is Chinese astronomy.

In Japan, it increased many things and developed as black art.

It is the evidence that a Korean does not have respect for the traditional culture that use the name of the 陰陽道＝Yin Yang method (onmudo) irrelevant to a martial art for a martial art.

[Bruce W Sims]

Is it a thing about Nanjing?

How many eyewitnesses are there?

In reality, I testify that many journalists who resided in Nanjing do not watch a battle.

All the private citizens of Nanjing sheltered to Shanghai.

China insisted that "Japan killed 20,000 Chinese" in a meeting in the League of Nations after Nanjing fell.
However, the League of Nations assumes that there "is not such a fact".

There is that Nanjing case became the topic after WW2.
The photograph carried by NYT regards it as falsehood in U.S.A.

1937. The journalist of NYT which was in Nanjing testifies that there was not the barbarity by Japan then.

It is said that Tokyo trial is a farce in Asia.
As for it, a white man made Japan a criminal one-sidedly.

Thank you for confirming what I had suspected. All thats happening here is that you are doing the same thing for Japan that some Europeans have done for Germany: that is making the arguement that atrocities never happened (IE. The Holocaust in Germnany never took place.) Well, those atrocities actually DID happen.

Japan DID practice Biological Warfare on Chinese villages in Northern China. During those experiments they really DID dissect people while those people were still alive. The Japanese army took pictures and recorded data on these experiments. How come you don't want to look at these experiments?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hOIpDSWySw

Japan really DID march soldiers to their deathes after the fighting on Battaan and randomly executed stragglers. The Japanese army took pictures of these acts. How come you don't want to look at these?

YouTube - Remembering Bataan...segment from For Veterans Only

Japan really DID murder and brutalize Chinese---not just in Nanjing but in a number of other cities. How come you are not looking at the films that the Japanese army took of these crimes? The Japanese army filmed these things. How come you do you don't want to look at those films?

YouTube - The Rape Of Nanking - Trailer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqH47MIpuoA

Japanese army personnel really DID encourage people to commit suicide on Saipan and Okinawa. They encouraged people to throw themselves from cliffs by telling the people that American forces would murder and rape the people. The Japanese took pictures of these suicides for their own records. How come you don't want to look at these pictures and films?

YouTube - Saipan - Suicide and Banzai Cliffs

Japanese forces really DID attack and invade countries all over the Pacific Rim including Hawaii, Indonesia, Phillipines, Malaysia and China and mudered thousands of people doing it. The Japanese took pictures and films of what they did. How come you don't want to look at these?

This is not the reporting of "white", western press people. These are based on the films and documents by Japanese participants who ordered, oversaw and participated in these events. How come you are not reading the military reports of your own people?

[antilie]

About the experiment on a living creature by 731, evidence is vague.

There is not the cruelty by 731 in the dossier which U.S.A. announced.

Soviet Union and China did communism education for a Japanese captive.
In addition, the communist state let a captive promise to perform communism propaganda in Japan as a condition of the early return home.
It is only China and an advice to insist on barbarity by Japan.


The contents of the movie are included in the video which you showed.
And, in Russia, the Soviet Union helped the race which resembled a Japanese in the Soviet Union put on clothes of Japan force for Chinese support at time of WW2 and announced the fact that made a puropaganda movie last year.

[usntfhkdkg]

Ya know it is well documented the brutal torture the japanese did to the Chinese, and Koreans.....genocide, etc. I am not even going to go into the inhumane treatment that Japanese military did to the P.O.W.'s of WWII. So to beautify and make a civilization an object of hero worship in my mind is just ridiculous.

[Bruce W Sims]

About the experiment on a living creature by 731, evidence is vague.

There is not the cruelty by 731 in the dossier which U.S.A. announced.

Soviet Union and China did communism education for a Japanese captive.
In addition, the communist state let a captive promise to perform communism propaganda in Japan as a condition of the early return home.
It is only China and an advice to insist on barbarity by Japan.


The contents of the movie are included in the video which you showed.
And, in Russia, the Soviet Union helped the race which resembled a Japanese in the Soviet Union put on clothes of Japan force for Chinese support at time of WW2 and announced the fact that made a puropaganda movie last year.

Now you are just plain wrong.

The Japanese documented their biological experiments. The Japanese kept track of how many people they cut-up and whether they used anaesthetic. They named dates and what disease they spread and where they spread it. There was nothing vague. It was written down and the results sent back to authorities in Japan.

The Japanese documented their atrocities in China.

These are not films asnd pictures by others. These are films and pictures made by Japanese..

Japanese did these things and took pictures and films of it while they did it.

Those are not people dressed like Japanese. Those ARE Japanese.

I see now what kind of person that you are. These things happened. You just don't want to admit to it. I see you are being very selective about which events you choose to respond.

No matter what facts I say, you will not admit to the terrible things the Japanese did. Are all Japanese people like you? I was taught that Japanese people had a very deep sense of Honor and are very responsible people. You just seem to want to make excuses.

[Bruce W Sims]

Ya know it is well documented the brutal torture the japanese did to the Chinese, and Koreans.....genocide, etc. I am not even going to go into the inhumane treatment that Japanese military did to the P.O.W.'s of WWII. So to beautify and make a civilization an object of hero worship in my mind is just ridiculous.

I think the Japanese are a lot like any other people. If you get away from the cities and the government the people are really neat. But in the government and in the cities the people are very different and see the world differently. For instance, I don't think the typical Japanese citizen really cared about Japan setting-up the same sort of legations as the Europeans did in China. But in the government people began to debate the policy of "Subdue Korea" as far back as 1873. Ultra-nationalist elements in the Japanese government were keen to establish a "sphere of influence" in the Pacific Rim nations after the fashion of the legations established by various European nations in China. With Western nations momentarily distracted by events elsewhere, the Japanese took a pro-active role in forcing the Koreans to open their country to outside influences. (see: The KANGHWA Treaty in 1876). FWIW.

BTW: Did you know that the Pearl Harbor attack in 1941 actually never happened? Those planes were all American planes painted to look like Japanese planes and those 3,000 or more people who were reported killed were actually abducted by aliens!! I think we can get them all back just as soon as Richard Dreyfus and Steven Speilberg can find time. :rolleyes:

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[klaasb]

You see, not all Koreans are bad
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2011/03/23/2011032300710.html

[antilie]

Are you a Chinese? Or Korean?

About death march.
The local person testifies after WW2 that "all captives were transferred by a train".

You must notice it.

A hand having a rope worn to the neck of a person tied up is Chinese cloth.

Barbarity by Japan which allied powers insist on has many cases that grounds are poor.
By the war, the propaganda becomes the one of the strategies.
The white man nation justified an act of oneself by making Japan the devil.

Why would the Asian countries criticize the Allied Forces just after WW2 if Japan really did barbarity in WW2?

The speech of the Asian sovereign whom there is.

On August 15, 1945, Japan and the white war were over.
And the white war began on the day with us.

[klaasb]

オランダ人