Function vs. Flash

[Van Zandt]

"It's not about winning or losing; it's about looking good while winning or losing!"

The above quote was a phrase I created when I was about seventeen years old. At that time, I was your average college student who spent his time working out and trying to pick up girls. My version of working out was training seven nights a week in both ITF and WTF style Tae Kwon Do, with a sprinkling of Kickboxing. For me, at that age, high kicks were the be-all and end-all of martial arts. I had the naive opinion that if you couldn't kick above your head, you weren't a real martial artist. I believed the only way to truly defend yourself on the street was with a sharp roundhouse kick to your opponent's face.

How foolish I was.

I came crashing back down to planet Earth after I got into a fight with another guy. The argument was, typically, over some girl whose name I can't even remember now. My opponent was a rather stocky fellow who towered over me at six-feet three-inches. (I'm not sure how tall - or short - I was, but suffice to say I didn't reach my peak height of five-feet four-inches until I was nineteen.) Considering I spent all my time in the dojang doing nothing but stretching, kicking pads and sparring (95% of the techniques I used were high kicks), it is probably easy to understand why I thought I could teach my opponent a lesson by slapping him up the side of the head with my foot. I discovered the hard way that he actually trained five times a week at a local boxing gym. After dodging my kick (which didn't even come close to his face, even though it went well above my own head height), he pushed me to the floor and broke my nose with a single punch.

Sitting on the ground with blood pouring from my nose and the feeling I'd just been run over by a bus, I struggled to understand how the kicks that worked so well in the dojang failed me in this encounter. I skipped college and training for the next fortnight to recover. I had my nose reset at the local hospital and spent six weeks with panda eyes. I also bruised my shoulder, back and butt in the fall, which took another month to recover. But it was my ego that took the worst beating; I had been humbled for the first time in my life.

During my time off I spent many hours thinking back to the fight and the reasons why my technique didn't work. My Tae Kwon Do instructor had told me that high kicks were the most effective technique, and they worked in every situation. Reflecting back I feel like a complete tit for believing such BS. Needless to say I never went back to those instructors. I researched videos, books and magazine articles by the likes of Dan Inosanto, Bob Breen, Rick Young, Larry Hartsell, Paul Vunak, Jerry Poteet, Ron Balicki and others. I came to the [slow and painful] realisation that while high kicks can and do work, the importance should be placed on functionality and not how good they look.

After my bruises [and ego] healed I paid a visit to every other striking-based martial arts training hall, gym, dojo and dojang within a 15-mile radius of my house. I was surprised, and somewhat disturbed, to see that more than 95% of them emphasised the importance of height over effectiveness in kicking techniques. Even the Muay Thai and Kyokushin practitioners, arts which specialise in devastating low kicks, were making a fuss about kicking above their heads.

On several occasions I approached students at the end of a lesson to ask them if they ever used high kicks effectively on the street. Not surprisingly, most said that clothing and being "cold" (not warming up beforehand) made it much more difficult for them to kick high. They found high kicks easy to do in the training hall, but near impossible on the street. Several students who, like me, had been brainwashed into thinking high kicks were the ultimate self-defence weapon. And, like me, they had ended up on their backsides as a result of trying to kick their opponent's head off.

In my research I found that a lot of instructors who implanted these false beliefs in their students used a lot of psuedo-science to support their reasons for advocating high kicks in every situation. A common theme was the belief that high kicks will keep an opponent further away than a lower-level kick. This belief is flawed. A kick provides the most range when the leg is extended at 90 degrees parallel to the floor. When the angle is increased [raising the leg] or decreased [lowering the leg], the range decreases.

Another belief was that high kicks develop a greater sense of balance. While maintaining balance is more challenging in a high kick, that is not to say a person will be more balanced doing a high kick than when compared to doing a low kick. While this will seem obvious to many of the experienced individuals on this forum, I found during my research [and surprisingly still find today) instructors who believed the opposite to be true. The higher your foot is off the ground, the more likely you can lose your balance and end up on the ground yourself. To an individual who spends most of his/her time kicking, the ground is the last place you want to be. I have also found that the higher the kick is, the easier it is for the opponent to block or grab the leg. I found that this is because most decent fighters have their hands up in a guard position to protect the face and head; in effect, the hands are already in a position to jam or grab the kick.

I found out the hard way during a sparring match with a Muay Thai practitioner who had a vicious low kick that kicking high exposes the groin unnecessarily. Kicking at mid- or low-section reduces the odds of having a toe nail lodged into your scrotum.

Some people, due to certain physical limitations, will never be able to achieve the effectiveness with their high kicks to pull them off in a sparring match or a real fight. I currently stand at five-feet four-inches. I am twenty-five years old, so I will most likely never grow another centimetre in my life. Therefore I had to take a long, hard look at my physiological capabilities and develop a game plan according to my strengths. I've had several street fights since the "broken nose" incident at college, and all of my opponents stood over six feet tall. When considering kicks, the leg and body are more viable targets for me to aim for, rather than try and comb the other guy's hair with my foot.

The same applies to tournament sparring. I fight in the flyweight category [-58kg]. While there are some fighters who are as short as me [some shorter - poor souls :D], the majority of fighters are head and shoulders above me. There is no lighter division, and going heavier is not an option because they get even bigger :eek: So I had to adapt my game plan, which resulted in kicks to the body having a greater scoring percentage than high kicks. Backing this up with a solid boxing game and I haven't done too badly ;)

High kicks, even when practiced correctly, may expose the practitioner to an increased risk of injury to the spine and pelvis. High kicks (those above 90 degrees) produce a strong tension of the muscle on one side of the trunk when the lower back is twisted to this side and pulled forward by the psoas muscle on the same side. This, if done by someone with insufficient lower back strength or any back problem, can lead to lower back strain or intervertebral disc inflammation. Even for persons with a strong back, spasms and pain may result due to pressure being exerted on the spine. Individuals with sacro iliac joint complications can make matters worse even when performing high kicks that are technically correct. [Colt et. al. 1998.]

High kicks can be difficult to execute correctly in a street fight due to the "adrenal dump" placed on the body. Developing a high level of static-active flexibility at hip- to chest-level (e.g. holding the leg out for up to three minutes without discomfort) will produce a high motor function response in a situation of stress than developing just dynamic or static-passive flexibility. [Matveev 1994.]

An interesting observation I made over the years that it tends to be the younger folk who place an importance on high kicks, even when presented with reasons why high kicks should not be used in certain scenarios. Older martial artists place more emphasis on function over "flash", perhaps due to their greater experience. Even the legendary Bill "Superfoot" Wallace, undoubtedly one of the greatest kickers of all time, states that high kicks should be used only when lower kicks are not an option. [Best of Bill Wallace, Black Belt Communications, 2005.] Bruce Lee, considered by many to be the epitome of athletic greatness, supposedly said that "kicking someone in the head makes as much sense as punching them in the ankle". It may be interesting to note that the high kicks that appeal so much to young people were introduced into Karate by Yoshitaka Funakoshi, son of Gichin Funakoshi, without any attention to whether they made sense in combat [Draeger 1974].

Is this article an attempt to dissuade people from practising high kicks? Absolutely not. Even given my experiences I still love to kick people in the head. By all means, work on high kicks. They are a wonderful addition to your repertoire and they can have a devastating effect on the morale of your opponent when they land successfully. But first you should consider your physical make-up and work on those areas where you will excel. I am relatively short in height, so timing, distance, speed and agility will work for me more than any high kick, no matter how much I stretch.

So, no, this article is not intended to deter you from high kicks. Rather, I hope it serves as a warning for those practitioners whose first thought is to end a fight with a flashy kick a la Jean-Claude Van Damme. Ninety percent of the time that stuff only works in movies.

Don't learn the hard way, like I did. My nose and ego are still paying for it.

[Fire-quan]

In hindsight, what a gift that moment was. Did you ever watch 'the magic flute' where a beautiful but spoilt youth has his nose broken to save him? Lol.

[Moi]

Get yourself a gun. Beats the crap out of any headkick.

Otherwise train for fun and fitness

[Van Zandt]

That moment was a turning point in my MA career. The broken nose didn't hurt nearly as much as the realisation that I couldn't actually fight. Funnily enough, the girl my opponent and I fought over chose someone else entirely!

Fate has a twisted sense of humour!

[Martial_Mathers]

Great thread! I relate your experience directly to my experience as a Capoeirista. Capoeira is known for flash, but has a lot of potent self-defense techniques. I focus on the potent stuff 90% of the time, and the flash 10% of the time (..as flash adds thrill and diversity to the game).

[KingNoodle]

Excellent reading, well written.

[Van Zandt]

Capoeira is known for flash, but has a lot of potent self-defense techniques

I met some Capoeristas at Seni in 2005 and took part in an open workshop with them. They were fantastic athletes with plenty of "flash" stuff, but also some rather violent self-defence techniques. I had no doubt they could handle themselves very well.

Excellent reading, well written.

Thank you :cool:

[Su lin]

Definitely function over flash! I often think people get injured far more doing the flashy stuff ,silly jumps and kicks, than people do when sparring full contact! I certainly used to get more annoying injuries when doing kung fu and when trying to use flashy stuff in sparring. All that has gone now though and I feel far more confident fighting! I don't use high kicks much at the moment,but I am working on the power of them in muay thai before I unleash them :D

[Martial_Mathers]

I met some Capoeristas at Seni in 2005 and took part in an open workshop with them. They were fantastic athletes with plenty of "flash" stuff, but also some rather violent self-defence techniques. I had no doubt they could handle themselves very well.






Awesome! Which group were they from?

[Van Zandt]

Association of Capoeira Engenho da Rainha UK

www.capoeiraworld.org

[Mider1985]

That moment was a turning point in my MA career. The broken nose didn't hurt nearly as much as the realisation that I couldn't actually fight. Funnily enough, the girl my opponent and I fought over chose someone else entirely!

Fate has a twisted sense of humour!

so what techniques do you do now? maybe you should look into tai chi or shoulin types they make your body stronger using your chi also wing chun and qigong they focus on speed too. Alot of the combat systems like the fancy ones dont work in street fights try something like the things i said or krav maga or chombac bas krav maga is used by the military in isreal so its for real life stuff, and chombac bas looks very affective.

[Van Zandt]

Mider1985,

I still do high kicks, but limit them to sparring in the dojo. Even though I love the flash stuff like high kicks, 540s, sideswipes etc., I throw 90% of kicks to the legs and body. Since I did that most of my techniques score. I also work on boxing and Muay Thai techniques as my core, but I'm also interested in Taekkyon (for the trips and footwork, not so much the high kicks).

[koyo]

Best with a straight blast between the eyes.. if a girl is watching and he is stunned follow up with a high jumping spinning back kick.


regards koyo

[Yatezy]

Get read mate! I agree high kicks dont have a place in SD but its good to have them in your arsenal.

Not good when you take one either, they hurt like hell :(

[righty]

Hi,
That was a good read.
Thanks for posting.

I'd just like to make a comment on the balance point you made. It's obvious that the higher the kick is, the harder it is to keep your balance and the more vulnerable you become. However I would believe that practising high kicks and balance when performing them can also improve your balance when performing lower kicks. This is the message I get when people say that that high kicks are good for balance.

And also a question out of curiosity really. You always see people in martial arts showing off their flexibility by performing high kicks and doing the splits. Two actions that aren't the greatest assets to a self defense situation. If you are saying this, where does your love of stretching and flexibility coming from?

[Van Zandt]

If you are saying this, where does your love of stretching and flexibility coming from?

I've been doing Tae Kwon Do since the age of 4, so stretching and high kicks are part of my martial arts "psyche". As much as I love them, I need to be realistic if I want to be an effective fighter, both in the ring/mat and on the street. They're fun, and like every other technique they have their place.

[Martial_Mathers]

Hi,


And also a question out of curiosity really. You always see people in martial arts showing off their flexibility by performing high kicks and doing the splits. Two actions that aren't the greatest assets to a self defense situation. If you are saying this, where does your love of stretching and flexibility coming from?


Stretching and flexibility prevents injury, and improves range of motion. There is no question about the benefits of stretching. :cool:

[ap Oweyn]

Good article, Superfoot.

I started out in taekwondo myself. And I reached a lot of the same conclusions. I certainly don't regret taking taekwondo either. I wouldn't say it's my "base style" (i.e., the style through which my thoughts on other techniques and concepts get "filtered"). But the foundations of power generation and kicking technique certainly came from taekwondo.

A couple of other thoughts on high kicking. First, another rationale I've heard for high kicking: If you can kick well high, just imagine how much easier it is to kick low.

Nonsense. The physical experience is sufficiently different that this argument makes no sense. The position of upper body in relation to lower body is totally different. Balance, weight distribution, foot positioning, etc. All different. The people who excel at low kicking are the ones who practice low kicking. Simple as that.

Low kicks also lend themselves better to follow-up from the hands, in my view. Because the time in between your foot hitting its mark and your foot hitting the ground again, in preparation for your hands to come into play, is much shorter with low kicking.

Also, I tend not to lead with kicking of any sort now. I usually lead with the hands. Reason being that I'm not remarkably quick. And if someone sees a kick coming, most of the time they back up. And that's my longest weapon, so I'm out of options. If they back up similarly when I punch, then they're straight into kick range and nicely distracted in the bargain.


Stuart

[Polar Bear]

I wouldn't feel too bad about it. Almost everyone studying martial arts are training complete twaddle.

trained natural fighter > excellent training > natural fighter > good training > poor training > no training.

My view is you need to find out where you are on the scale and work to push your self up the scale. The art itself is pretty irrelevant.

The Bear.

[Van Zandt]

Great posts, thanks guys :cool:

[Flashyboy]

Really good and interesting thread Superfoot! It's nice to see someone be honest about it as well, not many would admit to being humbled so easily! lol... All the points are very good too, I agree with what you are saying with regards to high kicks. I train in Kempo and Jujitsu which aims mainly at joint locks and low striking. My brother in law trains (And is a lot more advanced than myself) in TKD which spends more time on the fancy stuff. He is very agressive and being smaller than me tends to push for fighting all the time cause he wants to prove he is the 'big man'. Whenever we hit the beach etc we always seem to end up sparring, well, him kicking and me blocking! lol No matter how many times I do it, he always falls for the same technique though. He works aggressively with mid range kicks, which I find very easy to parry/block. I back up slowly, allowing him to get in closer and then 'catch' one of his higher kicks and 'tug' at his standing ankle with my free heel. Result? He falls down and I 'tag' him for show lol. He always complains it's not a legal TKD move, but then my answer is that I don 't practice TKD though do I? My point is more that he is always showing off high kicks. When we use the tyres on the local park though, I surprised him with my roundhouse, spinning back kick and double roundhouse kicks. He was also amazed at how I 'chamber' the kick and reach the top tyre (Which is 7 and a half foot high). The upshot is that at 6'4 and being very flexible I can kick powerfully and accurate at ridiculous heights, but I don't! Being flash is cool, and is actually in my nature (The username is a giveaway lol) but it's not practical. I cannot envisage a time when I would use it anywhere other than the dojo, but I know if I did it would have to be erfect timing. Maybe if you stun them enough then yeah, but it's just not practical unless you want to show off or make a point. The splits have never been a problem for me either, but do you know when I did them a couple of weeks ago even my wife was shocked as she had no idea I could do them! Maybe I need to be a bit more flash eh? lol Anyway, good thread bro. :)

[Van Zandt]

Flashyboy, thanks for your comments and input. Great account of sparring your brother on the beach. It certainly sounds like you have your head screwed on the right way! Keep it up :cool:

[mattsylvester]

Function every time. I love getting a head kick in if I'm playing, but I think that a sweep looks even better. Low kicks and knees all the way.

[KingNoodle]

^Agreed. And punches. A good hook or uppercut to the throat will do it.

[MatsunoCj]

very well written and interesting to read, i can completely understand ur points even though i have never even practiced high kicks or attempted to do one. it was interesting for me to hear how ur mind set was whn u were trying to do things like high kicks cause since ive only trained in jujitsu everything with me has alays been trying to get people close to strke or throw or somthing but overall very good and interesting thread

[Van Zandt]

very well written and interesting to read, i can completely understand ur points even though i have never even practiced high kicks or attempted to do one. it was interesting for me to hear how ur mind set was whn u were trying to do things like high kicks cause since ive only trained in jujitsu everything with me has alays been trying to get people close to strke or throw or somthing but overall very good and interesting thread

Thank you for your comment.

[Mitlov]

I agree that the argument that high kicks are always useful is 100% BS.

At the same time, the implied reverse, that high kicks are JUST flash and not function, is equally erroneous. If this was true, you would never see head kicks in kyokushin, muay thai, K-1, or MMA. But you do. They're a useful tool and they have their place.

[Sensei Wolf]

Good post. Entertaining read.


Mike

http://www.jiujitsugis.com
http://www.thecancerhealer.com

[47MartialMan]

High kicks are not effective in a real confrontation. How many real fights have you seen or been in to warrant their use?
Now to really "Blow your Mind"-Do you see high kicks used effectively in Aikido, Judo, Ju Jitsu, UFC, Jeet Kune Do, Boxing, other well-known effective arts that do not use them. These arts that do not have high kicking- Aikido, Judo, Ju Jitsu, UFC(champion fighters-do not use them), Jeet Kune Do, Boxing, other well-known effective arts have many accomplishments without such tactics.

You have to ask your self, what is the TRUE accomplishment of high-kicking?

The Accomplishment of High Kicking:

It is a PERSONAL accomplishment. To be able TO DO IT.

To accomplish balance and a certain "look", per "Look what I can do". Not so much to show others (as with some to fuel a ego), but to say to yourself, that I (you) Can Do It.

It is a goal for yourself. Your personal mindset for accomplishment.


Con of High Kicking:

It accomplishes nothing in a real situation or studying those arts that do not use it

One thing I should probably say at the very onset is that kicking is probably the least effective of all the combative methods. This is because your motion and stability are severely curtailed the instant you take a foot off the floor and you rarely get the space to use kicks, anyway. That is not to say that kicking does not have a role to play, because it does. However, I do want to point out that this role is nowhere near as large as much of modern practice.

To make our kicks as effective as possible, we need to keep them low and deliver them with force. Another component of effective kicking is accuracy. During the chaos of a fight the accurate placement and delivery of strikes becomes extremely difficult. Whilst it is relatively easy to hit a punch-bag, strike a focus-mitt or deliver accurate blows when practicing with a compliant practice partner, it is extremely difficult to deliver an accurate strike to an opponent who doesn't want to be hit.

[ap Oweyn]

If you haven't seen high kicking used effectively in the UFC, it's probably been about a decade since you've seen the UFC. Come on back.

[47MartialMan]

Rare flukes and low percentage of KOs.

[ap Oweyn]

Rare flukes and low percentage of KOs.

Landed head kicks generally end in KOs. And flukes? I'd like to see you make that argument to Maurice Smith.

I don't disagree with your fundamental point. But you're just flat-out wrong here.

[Su lin]

I just watched a great UFC fight actually where the ko came from a great,perfectly executed head kick.Awesome.

[47MartialMan]

Landed head kicks generally end in KOs. And flukes? I'd like to see you make that argument to Maurice Smith.

I don't disagree with your fundamental point. But you're just flat-out wrong here.

I am not stating that no one can get KOed from a high kick. The percentage of KO from high kicks are low. Very low.

High kicking is precarious in self defense siutations.

[WalkingThePath]

Just to add my .02 - first off - great post Superfoot - once again you show great maturity born of experience rather than theory!
Now the brown-nosing is out of the way - I would add that the dangers of high kicks and the type of teaching you describe can be applied to many dojos/dojangs around the world - the problem isn't so much high kicks, as instructors creating a false sense of 'functionality' (is that even a word??) and self-belief in their students...
TKD comes in for a lot of stick, but I've seen judokas and jujitsu exponents, along with people from various styles, who are so sure that what they train is so deadly and perfect, and yet they cannot perform those techniques when it matters!! It doesn't matter what your range or style is - if you are training techniques that are ridiculously complex and/or unfeasible than you will encounter the same bloodied nose-broken end that Superfoot did...
When I was teaching I made a clear distinction between 'street' techniques and 'dojang' techniques...High kicks and flashy technique can be a part of any style, but there needs to be a distinction made when teaching SD aspects - as for me, I have much more faith in a nice simple turning kick to the ribs or even a nice hook or elbow attack to the jaw than I do in any kick to head height...

[47MartialMan]

High Kicks=Competition

Low Kicks=Seld Defense

[ap Oweyn]

I am not stating that no one can get KOed from a high kick. The percentage of KO from high kicks are low. Very low.

The percentage of high kicks that land cleanly are low. But you quoted boxing. Look at punches thrown versus punches landed. Also low. It's easier to land a punch, no question. But this "low percentage shot" argument is one of those catchphrases people bandy around without much real analysis.

The percentage of KOs resulting from landed head kicks is probably actually quite high.

High kicking is precarious in self defense siutations.

I've already stated I agreed with that point, but you backed it up with evidence from the UFC.


Stuart

[Martial_Mathers]

The percentage of high kicks that land cleanly are low. But you quoted boxing. Look at punches thrown versus punches landed. Also low. It's easier to land a punch, no question. But this "low percentage shot" argument is one of those catchphrases people bandy around without much real analysis.

The percentage of KOs resulting from landed head kicks is probably actually quite high.



I've already stated I agreed with that point, but you backed it up with evidence from the UFC.


Stuart


Good argument ap Oweyn.

[Mitlov]

High kicks are not effective in a real confrontation. How many real fights have you seen or been in to warrant their use?
Now to really "Blow your Mind"-Do you see high kicks used effectively in Aikido, Judo, Ju Jitsu, UFC, Jeet Kune Do, Boxing, other well-known effective arts that do not use them. These arts that do not have high kicking- Aikido, Judo, Ju Jitsu, UFC(champion fighters-do not use them), Jeet Kune Do, Boxing, other well-known effective arts have many accomplishments without such tactics.

I can't help but notice that muay thai and kyokushin karate were both missing from your list of "well-known effective arts." And you included Aikido? I've got no beef with Aikido, but since you're distinguishing between "what works with a complying partner" and "what works with a fully-resisting opponent," you should remember that there's no free-sparring in Aikido.

ap Oweyn already explained why you're wrong about head kicks in the UFC, but for the record, the man is dead on.

YouTube - UFC 74: Couture vs. Gonzaga - See it again on VOD!

Watch 0:55-1:00. That's Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic who got KOed, not some novice.

[ArmyCombatives]

good stuff here. I agree that function goes way beyond flash. That is one thing that always made me laugh about people talking about chinese arts, I have been studying chinese arts for about 11 yrs, and people always say "oh that flowery stuff" or "its all circles and flowers" well some of the show stuff is Flashy (mainly Wu-Shu). But the real meat of the art is aggresive and very brutal. I study Lung Jow which is actually not pretty at all, barely no kicks, and it always ends badly.... I have been put on the path of Mantis which has alot of joint locks and breaks, nothing flashy about that. I use alot of Chi-Na pain full and very usefull but not Flashy.... lol I am 5' 11" and about 220lbs, so jumping and kicking is not my thing. I also am in the Army and have studied Army Combatives, which has really brought my ground fight to a new level.

Respects

[47MartialMan]

I can't help but notice that muay thai and kyokushin karate were both missing from your list of "well-known effective arts." And you included Aikido? I've got no beef with Aikido, but since you're distinguishing between "what works with a complying partner" and "what works with a fully-resisting opponent," you should remember that there's no free-sparring in Aikido.

ap Oweyn already explained why you're wrong about head kicks in the UFC, but for the record, the man is dead on.

YouTube - UFC 74: Couture vs. Gonzaga - See it again on VOD! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiZ8ZVUUvAo&NR=1)

Watch 0:55-1:00. That's Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic who got KOed, not some novice.


RARE LOW PERCENTAGE

[Mitlov]

RARE LOW PERCENTAGE

You mean, like all KOs in modern MMA? Most victories I see nowadays are from submission or the ref stopping the fight. Does that mean MMAers should quit training in striking, because winning a match outright with ANY single strike is a rare low percentage?

EDIT: Is Peter Aerts' entire career one big "rare low percentage"?

YouTube - Peter Aerts Highlights

[47MartialMan]

Iit doesnt mean to quit striking. This hread is about function verses flash. And somehow high kicking falls in one of those categories.

[Mitlov]

Iit doesnt mean to quit striking. This hread is about function verses flash. And somehow high kicking falls in one of those categories.

So you think that the first half of that Peter Aerts video isn't functional? It looks pretty functional to me.

[Martial_Mathers]

I can't help but notice that muay thai and kyokushin karate were both missing from your list of "well-known effective arts." And you included Aikido? I've got no beef with Aikido, but since you're distinguishing between "what works with a complying partner" and "what works with a fully-resisting opponent," you should remember that there's no free-sparring in Aikido.

ap Oweyn already explained why you're wrong about head kicks in the UFC, but for the record, the man is dead on.

YouTube - UFC 74: Couture vs. Gonzaga - See it again on VOD! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiZ8ZVUUvAo&NR=1)

Watch 0:55-1:00. That's Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic who got KOed, not some novice.


Damn! Cro Cop's ankle/lower leg was crazy twisted. DAMN!

[47MartialMan]

So you think that the first half of that Peter Aerts video isn't functional? It looks pretty functional to me.

Functional only in that particular moment. Not consistently functional. And not functional in the street. More luck and chance than anything.

[ArmyCombatives]

okay, so we can see that alot of people like high kicks, and some dont. Not sure how the thread got locked on to high kicks. There is alot of other flashy stuff that is basically useless, unless you are just going for the aaawww effect.. Me personally I think sport fighting is flashy, but real worls self defense has no need to be flashy, quick and desicive is the way for me. Just my two cents.

Respects

[Kwan Jang]

So, let me get this straight. Pressure testing by world-class, fully resisiting opponents that can be taken out on a consistant basis by high kicks are flukes. At least according to those who see chin na and aikido as well proven for real fights. Even though both systems are notorius for lacking pressure testing and have a far less positive track record under adrenal stress. Does this about sum it up?

When I say this, I am not even trying to troll. I have quite a bit of skill/training in chin na/kyusho and DO believe that it can be very functional in the right circumstances. I also have a black belt in aikido's parent art of daito-ryu and a 5th dan in it's sister art of hapkido. But neither aikido nor chin na have the best reps or track records under pressure testing under adrenal stress. When presented with evidence that high kicks have achieved a greater success than either of the others have yet to demonstrate under similar conditions, it just seems a bit of an odd response.

My take on it is that high kicks CAN be devastating if the person throwing them is skilled enough despite what some styles or instructors (that don't use them) will argue to the contrary. They can be high risk for self defense/ combative situations though and should be used with care even by those who are very good with them. And can easily be a disaster waiting to happen for someone who isn't skilled with them trying them on the street. I would even agree that they are better reserved for sport applications, but the apparent style bias I'm seeing here needs to be addressed.

[ArmyCombatives]

okay, wow way to start flaming. I do know that Chi Na is very effective in self defense, and if you are trained in Chi Na you would know this. Not all of us are world class fighters, I believe this thread started with a question of Flash or Function? I know for me and for the Art that I study, it is not flashy, but works well in real world applications. I do not believe I ragged on any TKD or other kicky arts when I posted. I do believe in what I know, and have had the unlucky chance to prove it a couple of times, yes I said unlucky. I am not a paid fighter, and do not look to fight, so what I know works just fine for me, and yes Chi Na has been tested and proven. Okay, now that I said all that, just opinions on here, we should not be flaming on anyone or thier chosen style....

respects

[Van Zandt]

Kwan Jang,

I think you hit the nail on the head, Sir. I have always considered myself good at high kicks, but in the example I provided I was not good at throwing them on the street [and received a broken nose for my efforts]. Now I trust these techniques more than in the past, but that is only because I've trained with "street" conditions in mind.

[Bruised Nov]

This was a great post. I've often wondered what would happen in a street fight when it comes to kicking. I haven't been in any fights since I started Muay Thai, and have often been intruiged by the thought of what would happen given the opportunity. However, the reason I haven't been in a fight since beginning martial arts is because most of the people that learned I am now a martial artist are too intimidated to fight me.

That principle makes flash important. If you show a little flash BEFORE the fight you might discourage your aggressor from fighting, but when it comes down to it when fighting actually goes down function seems far more important.

Since I haven't fought out side the gym since I started martial arts I've wondered though what would happen if I threw kicks, not so much high kicks because I don't like to use high kicks because in Muay Thai it's a good way to get your plant leg taken out resulting in a hard landing, at least from my experience. I just wondered because most people's natural reaction to kicks is to grab them and if that happens you're screwed...so I liked reading about your broken nose story which serves as a classic "what not to do" scenario. No offense.

One thing I have to laugh at is the thought of Muay Thai in a street fight situation since most people's initial intimidation technique is to get right up in your face (merely inches exposing you to their awful breath) which is a great place to be for pulverizing them with knees and elbows...


Great post.

[Van Zandt]

Thank you for your comment Bruised Nov :cool:

[New Guy]

However, the reason I haven't been in a fight since beginning martial arts is because most of the people that learned I am now a martial artist are too intimidated to fight me.

That principle makes flash important. If you show a little flash BEFORE the fight you might discourage your aggressor from fighting, but when it comes down to it when fighting actually goes down function seems far more important.

That's an interesting point, my worry would be what if it has other side effect, if you make an aggressor think that you know martial arts, that might make they try even harder with their adrenaline. What if they are a martial artist and spot the flaw in your flashy show?

[JaxMMA]

Wow, that was a long read....

So you're still training taekwondo? Why not take some boxing, kickboxing, mma, or muay thai?

[47MartialMan]

Better to keep the flash in the tournament show

[Kraen]

Wow, that was a long read....

So you're still training taekwondo? Why not take some boxing, kickboxing, mma, or muay thai?

What's wrong with Taekwondo?

[Van Zandt]

So you're still training taekwondo? Why not take some boxing, kickboxing, mma, or muay thai?

Yup, still training in Taekwon-do (ITF and WTF), along with boxing and kickboxing. Done MT for a number of years too, and I'm currently looking around for an MMA gym in my area.

[Moi]

Yup, still training in Taekwon-do (ITF and WTF), along with boxing and kickboxing. Done MT for a number of years too, and I'm currently looking around for an MMA gym in my area.

I spent 12 years working in Blackburn so I see no reason why you can't train in Wales:rolleyes:

[Moi]

What's wrong with Taekwondo?

Most of it is crap. You have to go a long way to find someone you teaches effective TKD. It's a sport, a game of tag usually.
Dumbed down to make it financially successful.

[Van Zandt]

I spent 12 years working in Blackburn so I see no reason why you can't train in Wales

Actually, looking at Russ' website it doesn't seem like such a bad idea!

Most of it is crap. You have to go a long way to find someone you teaches effective TKD. It's a sport, a game of tag usually.
Dumbed down to make it financially successful.

Sadly I have to agree. But I think it's due to the proliferation of poor teachers and not necessarily a poor art. I believe teachers attract the type of students they want, so I usually find only good students and gyms I consider to be legit. There is hope for TKD yet!

[Moi]

Sadly I have to agree. But I think it's due to the proliferation of poor teachers and not necessarily a poor art. I believe teachers attract the type of students they want, so I usually find only good students and gyms I consider to be legit. There is hope for TKD yet!

With people like Stuart, yourself, Mitch and I'm sure many others there will always be a small percentage that makes it something effective.
I doubt you'll change the tide, too much money at stake and it has to be said, semi contact fighting is great fun. Room for everyone.

[JaxMMA]

What's wrong with Taekwondo?

Nothing, just the way it's taught and all the crap that's told to students.

I think MartialDad pretty much summarized it:
Most of it is crap. You have to go a long way to find someone you teaches effective TKD. It's a sport, a game of tag usually.
Dumbed down to make it financially successful.


As for the high kicks, I think they can be very effective when used at a right time (i.e. CroCop).

[Bruised Nov]

That's an interesting point, my worry would be what if it has other side effect, if you make an aggressor think that you know martial arts, that might make they try even harder with their adrenaline. What if they are a martial artist and spot the flaw in your flashy show?

It's possible...if there's one thing I've learned it's that everything has the potential to go horribly wrong...if they were a non fighter and like you said they just experience an adrenaline rush then I wouldn't be too worried. Not to sound cocky but adrenaline doesn't improve technique...not to say they can't hulk out or something to that effect and still win but the probability isn't very good. Besides it seems that things aren't the way they used to be, in my mind the tougher the opponent the better the fight, but many people don't think that way anymore and would rather go for an easy win than a hard well deserved win...like for example the owner of my gym was scheduled to fight in a local event next month but his opponents keep backing out as soon as they find out he's a Pan Am champ. If it were the case of another martial artist spotting flaws and snickering at your attempt to flash things up and intimidate...then you're screwed. Lol. Honestly this isn't a mistake I would make because I am a function fighter. I don't use flash because I'd rather someone be overconfident and think they can beat me because it makes them careless and stupid, the only thing I worry about in a street fight is throwing a kick and having them grab it because at that point you're almost always going to the ground and I'm a Muay Thai fighter so the ground isn't a friendly place for me...Besides that I don't have trouble figuring out other fighters because in my opinion fighters are easy to spot...it's a way we carry ourselves.

[Van Zandt]

Interestingly there was the following advert in this month's issue of Martial Arts Illustrated:

"What does martial arts have to do with looking good?

EVERYTHING!

Choi Kwang Do is much more than just learning self defence.

Our meticulously constructed classes combine Dynamic Martial Arts with fitness workouts and advanced stretching routines. The results are exhilarating!"

This was accompanied by a picture of a pretty blond woman doing a high front kick. They probably meant looking good as in a healthy physique, but it did make me think back to this thread :rolleyes:

[Moi]

This was accompanied by a picture of a pretty blond woman doing a high front kick. They probably meant looking good as in a healthy physique, but it did make me think back to this thread :rolleyes:

This thread is useless without pics!!!!

You didn't think to include a pic??? Come on man:):):)

[New Guy]

This was accompanied by a picture of a pretty blond woman doing a high front kick. :rolleyes:

I like a pic too.:evil:

[Van Zandt]

Click here (http://www.cassaracademy.com)

[Kraen]

Click here (http://www.cassaracademy.com)

She's not as pretty as I was lead to believe. >_>

I want a refund.

-Kraen

[Moi]

She's not as pretty as I was lead to believe. >_>

I want a refund.

-Kraen

I'm glad you said that:rolleyes:

[Kenpo_Amnesiac]

when you are confronted by an attacker something simple like delayed hand/sword while not really "flashy" can be just as effective as something more "flashy". When it is a matter of self defense who cares how flashy or dorky you look.

[New Guy]

When it is a matter of self defense who cares how flashy or dorky you look.

...

But I want to look sexy while defending myself!!

Oh well.. :(

[Donnerschlag]

I recommend checking out the ARMA. (Association for Renaissance Martial Arts)
They may specialize in longsword (which includes grappling as well), but Ringen (Wrestling/grappling) is one of their areas of study, and is a very effective, no-bullsh*t form of combat from what I've seen. Hell it's actually a part of the Army's unarmed combat training.

[47MartialMan]

Any recommendation is nice, but there will be the obstacle of actually studying at a place remotely out the way or in another country.

[Guyin]

Besides that I don't have trouble figuring out other fighters because in my opinion fighters are easy to spot...it's a way we carry ourselves.

Even though it's 2yrs old I'm still laughing my socks off at that comment!! What deluded nonsense.

To sum up - Flash is for the Gym/Dojo. Function is for real.

[47MartialMan]

.

Even though it's 2yrs old I'm still laughing my socks off at that comment!! What deluded nonsense.

To sum up - Flash is for the Gym/Dojo. Function is for real.

Flash is for quick memory access and storage :D

[KenpoCourt]

I have studied both Muay Thai and (a little)Krav Maga as well as TKD and when it comes to flashy head kicks and aerials versus brute practicality, the proof is in the results. I have tried to spar and defend myself in both fashions and the TKD training almost got my butt kicked. After learning Muay Thai and American Kenpo, i learned that the best and most effective means of self defense are the basic, powerful techniques. Knees, Elbows, take downs, all of these prove much more useful than any panty wetting spectacle one could put on. :)

Excellent article and really useful to any new martial artists!