what makes an internal MA?

[shotokanwarrior]

shotokanwarrior here....
what exactly is the definition of an Internal Martial Art? is it one that doesn't involve physical exertion or doesn't do conditioning?

[Andrew Green]

You'll get different answers from different people ;)

It's a fuzzy line, and one that some people don't think really exists.

Think of it this way, internal ones are more like a form of active meditation, focus on breathing and mental focus.

External ones are more sport like, focus on physical movements.

All contain both though.

[God]

actually, you are absolutely 100% wrong. internal arts train your body before they train you martially (for fighting). that is all. internal arts like white crane are very stressful on the body, but most internal arts have a martial side.

taiji is a softer style and is easier on the body. white crane involves a lot of physical exertion in its hard aspects, not even necessarily in it's external side...not sure about taiji though.

yeah, internal arts have martial sides...they're just an after thought. in TKD for example, there is a nearby school that teaches you all about jin once you become a red belt...that's fairly common. but if you went to a local taiji school they would teach you all about jin and when you were a red belt teach you how to do TKD...not exactly true, but that's the idea behind it.

sorry. that was a chaotic post.

[Andrew Green]

Like I said "You'll get different answers from different people"

[God]

i was not telling you that YOU were wrong, but shotokan warrior.

he had some guesses about the distinction for internal and external MA...and they were wrong.

all you need to know is that all (most?) MA have both, but the internal side of the art is making your body into a highly functional machine and the external is learning what to do with your machine. internal arts focus on the internal side, external focus on the external. it has nothing to do with exertion, that would be the distinction between hard and soft styles.

that as less chaotic :)

[bcullen]

Internal arts have a greater focus on economy of motion, small muscle co-ordination, breathing, posture, and for those less inclined to the idea of chi think of it as kinetic-linking. There's less focus on raw physical power, that is, not to say that it's unnecessary for without it the correct postures and positions are not possible.

As to hard and soft those apply more to technique then the art, (CMA has a pretty mixed bag). Hard meets force with force (e.g. Shotokan Karate) A soft style redirects force or just lets it go. (e.g. Aikido)

Tai Chi Chuan (tajiquan) is known for its soft approach while Hsing-Yi (Xing-Yi) is also an internal art but uses more linear hard style moves.

[nzric]

Internal arts can be very physically demanding. If you compare it with doing weights (which it actually is, come to think of it) it's the difference between doing lots of fast reps, or a series of controlled, focused ones.

Internal arts focus on precision of movement - which may or may not mean moving slowly. As bcullen said, it's about focusing kinetic energy in the most economical way and recycling energy that comes from your own or the opponent's movements. A hard style like Karate or Taekwondo will use force on force and expansive movements, but the principles of internal arts is to use as little energy as possible to the greatest effect. That's why most internal arts use spiralling energy of yourself (as in small frame taiji or hsing i) or the opponent (as in aikido).

Breathing methods feature heavily, mainly in order to focus your energy and concentration. Movements in the external arts (like a simple reverse punch or a roundhouse) get more effective the more advanced the person is, but the movements themselves are effective even for the beginner. On the other hand, many movements of the internal arts (fajing or yielding/transforming energy) would be useless for the beginner to use in a real situation. They require a lot more knowledge of your own body mechanics and the opponents movements and psychology (for sticking/following methods) to work.

That is why the internal arts focus on breathing and health-related exercises. They are rooted in qigong and chinese acupuncture (to benefit yourself and also to strike the opponent's weak points) and it's important to have whole-body coordination for the more complicated movements in the forms (which requires health and presence of mind).

I hope nobody takes this the wrong way - external arts can be very complicated and require years of training as well. My point is that while you can be taught a series of external kicks/blocks and have effective weapons in a short time, it takes a lot longer for the weapons of the internal arts to be effective. You can overpower someone with a sloppy roundhouse, but an uncoordinated fajing can end up as just a light slap.

[Terry Matthes]

I think it's all just a useless distinction. What does it really matter. All I have ever gotten out of it is a prejudice from one side to the other. Every art has aspects of each. The only people who seem to argue one about internal and external are those who feel they have something to gain by making the distinction.

[nzric]

Good point, but sometimes you need to make the distinction. When you practice internal forms you need to know the differences because you're consciously trying not to use external methods. The body mechanics is different - of course they cross over but because internal ma is usually so counter-intuitive, it usually helps to make the practice as internal as possible.

[Syd]

I'm getting less interested in distinctions the more involved I become in training, it's almost to the point where the less said about it all, for me, the better. Let those who have questions find their answers by effort of practice and not discussion. This is the only place where those answers can truly be found as the question for every person is different for every person, just as the answer is different; it comes from within.

[Kat]

I think its a distinction that has been badly misinterperted through Language and Culturual differences.I agree with Terry,in modern times people use it to create a distinction so as to claim higher understanding.(just another way of saying I'm better then you because of blah blah) It provided a link for intellectuals(read people who could and did write about MA in the late 1800s in China)to glorify their commitment to MA(as opposed to being a mindless bodyguard,soilder or crim).They highligthed MAs link to health and spiritual/medative practises,We msytified.

I feel there is and was a lot more to it then this (but like many medative disciplines its selfish and subjective) but it can be found in countless other practises like calligraphy,gardening,tea cemormonies,tennis etc.Second Syd,"Find Peace in Practise"

"You'll get different answers from different people;) "

You sure will!!!Unfortunatly most of it is just regurgitation from their own Teachers.Some call that tradition;)

[Terry Matthes]

Amen sister.

[bcullen]

Originally posted by Terry Matthes
I think it's all just a useless distinction. What does it really matter. All I have ever gotten out of it is a prejudice from one side to the other. Every art has aspects of each. The only people who seem to argue one about internal and external are those who feel they have something to gain by making the distinction.

It's more an issue for those thinking of training. The external arts generally are more appealing to a younger crowd. While the internal arts hold a greater appeal to those with a few years under their belt (or hanging over it ;) ) The external arts require strength, flexibility, stamina. Things that start to wane with age. The internal arts require perserverance and patience. Things youth often lacks.

If you need to be able to defend yourself right now or within a couple years, I wouldn't recommend an internal art. If you're lacking in patience you might want to think again.

Internal arts are generally viewed with distain in western culture (esp. the U.S.) as they don't reflect the culture. Which, tends to be one of instant gratification (I want it and I want it now).

I currently train in Baguazhang (Pa Kua Chuan). The first year of training was mostly stationary drills on the eight basic palms, stances and walking drills. Year two moved into performing linear palm changes and nine palace stepping. So two years later and I'm almost ready to start the first form.

[Darren]

Originally posted by bcullen
It's more an issue for those thinking of training. The external arts generally are more appealing to a younger crowd. While the internal arts hold a greater appeal to those with a few years under their belt (or hanging over it ;) ) The external arts require strength, flexibility, stamina. Things that start to wane with age. The internal arts require perserverance and patience. Things youth often lacks.

If you need to be able to defend yourself right now or within a couple years, I wouldn't recommend an internal art. If you're lacking in patience you might want to think again.

Internal arts are generally viewed with distain in western culture (esp. the U.S.) as they don't reflect the culture. Which, tends to be one of instant gratification (I want it and I want it now).

I currently train in Baguazhang (Pa Kua Chuan). The first year of training was mostly stationary drills on the eight basic palms, stances and walking drills. Year two moved into performing linear palm changes and nine palace stepping. So two years later and I'm almost ready to start the first form.

Well said.

I tried to reply to this myself but to be honest it's far easier to buy a good book on the theory of, for instance, tai chi, and read that while considering a hard/external style. Just look on amazon and check out the readers' reviews.

[shotokanwarrior]

God damn the US

[Kat]

"If you need to be able to defend yourself right now or within a couple years, I wouldn't recommend an internal art. If you're lacking in patience you might want to think again. "

I tend to disagree,there is no reason why you can't be effective in a short time in many IMA.Like everything this is probally more relative to the school and individual then the style.

"Internal arts are generally viewed with distain in western culture (esp. the U.S.) as they don't reflect the culture. Which, tends to be one of instant gratification (I want it and I want it now)."

Again I disagree, I have found that not only does the west embrace IMA but that they place it on a pedestal and mystify common language phrases into something that they were never meant to be.Everyone seems to know and love the story of the humble old man taking apart the young hothead through use of his superior IMA style;)
If anything many TMA have lost what many of you would call "IMA
fundamentals" through commericalisation,lack of use,desire to be golbal commodities, cultural displacement and the fact that they probaly don't seem macho enough.

[bcullen]

Originally posted by Kat

I tend to disagree,there is no reason why you can't be effective in a short time in many IMA.Like everything this is probally more relative to the school and individual then the style.

IMA change the way you move and think about movement, this is not something that you change overnight. To be effective in combat the movements must be instinctual (commited to muscle memory) which takes even longer.

So which arts do you train in?

[Orange...?]

Internal martial art is a training of your inner body. I know a martial art called "Iron Shirt". It helps you to train the body to become very hard and strong, and you wont be able to put a spear throw your stomach (after maybe 10 years of training). It also teaches you "balance". I have the book, and there is a picture of five guys pushing one person, but he doesn't even move. This is a one martial art I want to be a part of :p



Colour reset from yellow in the interests of accessibility: Yoda

[Kat]

Originally posted by bcullen
IMA change the way you move and think about movement, this is not something that you change overnight. To be effective in combat the movements must be instinctual (commited to muscle memory) which takes even longer.

So which arts do you train in?
Not that it should matter
BGZ, Yiquan and a soild background in TJQ Yang style.When younger MT.Still love Bjj and Wrestling

You will disagree with me,but I find many boxers and wrestlers move in the format that many good IMA practioners move.There is simply a vast number stlyes of what you would classify as IMA with very different methods of power generation and movement as well as strategy and mindset,all styles change the way you move.
Combat (whatever that is)is a big word,but as I said effectiveness is greatly determined by the school,individual and their associated goals.

[shotokanwarrior]

Originally posted by IVP_Kozak
Internal martial art is a training of your inner body. I know a martial art called "Iron Shirt". It helps you to train the body to become very hard and strong, and you wont be able to put a spear throw your stomach (after maybe 10 years of training). It also teaches you "balance". I have the book, and there is a picture of five guys pushing one person, but he doesn't even move. This is a one martial art I want to be a part of :p
hardly an 'internal' martial art if you do that much conditioning. (i thought they were into softness rather than hardness?)

[Orange...?]

Well it is called an "internal" martial art because it trains the internal parts of your body to become hard and strong, and also healthy.

(well... thats what i know about it...)

[bcullen]

Originally posted by Kat
Not that it should matter
BGZ, Yiquan and a soild background in TJQ Yang style.When younger MT.Still love Bjj and Wrestling

You will disagree with me,but I find many boxers and wrestlers move in the format that many good IMA practioners move.There is simply a vast number stlyes of what you would classify as IMA with very different methods of power generation and movement as well as strategy and mindset,all styles change the way you move.
Combat (whatever that is)is a big word,but as I said effectiveness is greatly determined by the school,individual and their associated goals.

I'll agree that other arts have internal components and internal sides to them. But there's a huge difference between going through the motions (movements) and actually practicing an IMA.

But saying that you can pick them all up in a short time is ludicris. So all the great masters wasted all that time when they could have spent a year or two and moved on?

What IVP is mentioning is a form of Chi Kung (Qi Gong) ~ Here's a tangent I don't want to get into.

[hwardo]

Noticably absent from this discussion is the one thing that really does make a distinction between internal and external martial arts: Chi.

If you aren't aware of, or don't believe in your chi, which many don't, you will see no need for a distinction.

Assuming you do recognize the utilization of chi in fighting, then the distinction is that internal arts are focused on the movement of chi in the body in order to produce a desired effect, whereas external arts do not focus on that.

I'm not trying to start another one of the chi threads either, but it is important to understand that as a alleged component of internal fighting.

[bcullen]

Originally posted by hwardo
Noticably absent from this discussion is the one thing that really does make a distinction between internal and external martial arts: Chi.

If you aren't aware of, or don't believe in your chi, which many don't, you will see no need for a distinction.

Assuming you do recognize the utilization of chi in fighting, then the distinction is that internal arts are focused on the movement of chi in the body in order to produce a desired effect, whereas external arts do not focus on that.

I'm not trying to start another one of the chi threads either, but it is important to understand that as a alleged component of internal fighting.

True very true, and I've been deliberately avoiding that word as it seems to be a major source of pointless arguements.

[Kat]

Originally posted by bcullen
But there's a huge difference between going through the motions (movements) and actually practicing an IMA.

But saying that you can pick them all up in a short time is ludicris. So all the great masters wasted all that time when they could have spent a year or two and moved on?


I can't see where I mentioned complete mastery of an art?I said IMA effectivness is relative to its apporach in training which is usually dependent on school, individual(3rd time).Effective intergration should show itself in a resaonably short period.
As Terry mentioned before,you are setting up a diatcomy, to imply superiority through difference.You believe some people just go through the motions while others actually practise "IMA"(truth).This to me seems a ludicrous belief as does placing Dead "masters" who you will never meet( and only know about through second hand culturaly translated stories) above what you have available around you.
So an old lady practiseing the stardardised 32 move Chen doesn't cultivate Qi because she has no knowledge of the fighting applications????Perhaps her school and goals are different.

Hwardo
Re: Qi
Its often translated as(amongst countless other) Vitality (relating to a healthy functioning body).It is wrong to think that what you class as Wai Jia do not generate or cultivate Qi. Yi (intent) is often argued essential to guide the Qi.Again most Nei Jia and Wai Jia styles train this(as does Boxing,swimming etc).No doubt focus differs,but this is a matter for the school, its traditions and its goals.

Any how I am well aware of the stardard perception of IMA and am trying to point out a different veiw shared by many.

[bcullen]

I can't see where I mentioned complete mastery of an art?I said IMA effectivness is relative to its apporach in training which is usually dependent on school, individual(3rd time).Effective intergration should show itself in a resaonably short period.

This would depend of course on frequency and intensity of training and what you consider a reasonable time period. I'm making the assumption that the practioner is a practicing as a hobby. Maybe the choice of wording is poor but it's been coming off as "that stuff's easy what's taking you so long, you should have already learned all there is to it".


As Terry mentioned before,you are setting up a diatcomy, to imply superiority through difference.You believe some people just go through the motions while others actually practise "IMA"(truth).This to me seems a ludicrous belief as does placing Dead "masters" who you will never meet( and only know about through second hand culturaly translated stories) above what you have available around you.

No I never claimed superiority just illustrating the difference. Your post came off as "If you haven't learned all you need to know in x months it's not worth it" Which is a very common attitude towards MA in general in the west. The internal and external arts compliment each other, Yin/Yang (2-3 rd time, I lost track).

I see people all the time that go through the motions and run through a Yang short form like a hard form kata (usually young male beginners). Why? Lack of patience.

What cultrual stories are you talking about? I'm refering to my own expiriences with MA.
I made the comment to point out that consistantly refering to IMA as "easy to learn" is insulting to all practioners of any MA (as they all contain elements of IMA). It implies that all the time spent in learning and refining the art is/was meaningless.


So an old lady practiseing the stardardised 32 move Chen doesn't cultivate Qi because she has no knowledge of the fighting applications????Perhaps her school and goals are different.


Huh? Even without the martial application it's still effective for health. I never implied otherwise nor did I say training purely for reasons other than self-defense are wrong (exercise, health, self improvement etc...).

What I was trying to illustrate is that if you are traning purely to fight and have need to right now IMA might not be the best choice.

The U.S. military uses BJJ for hand-to-hand combat training not because its the ultimate fighting system but because it can be used effectively with limited training (of course the more the better but...). These are some of the systems strong points. By your reasoning we should be teaching soldiers Tai Chi? (Yeah, only if we start fighting wars with swords again). Why, it takes too long, rapid development is not one of IMA strong points. External arts will almost always prepare a practitioner for fighting faster then internal arts.

[Kat]

Originally posted by bcullen
Maybe the choice of wording is poor but it's been coming off as "that stuff's easy what's taking you so long, you should have already learned all there is to it".
Your post came off as "If you haven't learned all you need to know in x months it's not worth it" Which is a very common attitude towards MA in general in the west. The internal and external arts compliment each other, Yin/Yang (2-3 rd time, I lost track).
Your right maybe I just don't communicate ideas well,as I have no idea how you read that from my posts.

Originally posted by bcullen
I see people all the time that go through the motions and run through a Yang short form like a hard form kata (usually young male beginners). Why? Lack of patience.

This is just your assesment of other practioners,Doesn't that seem a tad arrogant to you?Their reality might be quite different.(hence the reference to you infering superiority)


Originally posted by bcullen
I made the comment to point out that consistantly refering to IMA as "easy to learn" is insulting to all practioners of any MA (as they all contain elements of IMA). It implies that all the time spent in learning and refining the art is/was meaningless.).

Sorry,again I am not sure how you read that into my post.I didn't refer to IMA as easy to learn,although I do feel that all MA require simular dedication.If you are insulted by such a reference,then I am sure other MA people would find your sterotyping of External MA people as lacking patience just as insulting.

Originally posted by bcullen
What I was trying to illustrate is that if you are traning purely to fight and have need to right now IMA might not be the best choice.
Why, it takes too long, rapid development is not one of IMA strong points. External arts will almost always prepare a practitioner for fighting faster then internal arts.

Understood that point,and disagreed.Its pretty clear we come from different prepectives of MA.I would say my main point is that I give more value to the training, school and individual then the style.I have found that many fundamentals, that some recognize as IMA, are common to most indepth studied fighting styles.There are more simularities then differences,whether people train them is up to them.

[soggycat]

Internal Versus External
In addition to Tai Chi, Bagua and Hsing I, some of the other lesser known Internal Arts are:

# Liu He Ba Fa
# Tang Lang Chuan ( only one variant, dunno which one)
# Nine Little Heavens
# Southern White Crane
# Aikido ( the only Japanese Internal Art)
# Kul Suk Won ( Korean )
http://kuksool.home.texas.net/our_martial_art.html

# Tang Soo Do ( Korean )
http://www.tangsootao.com.au/pages/about.htm

…….and many many others I’m not aware off.


Here’s my non-comprehensive list of diffs betwn Internal & External Martial Arts:

INTERNAL

1. No stretches and warm ups
2. Reliance on Chi
3. Blending with an attack
4. Yielding / Redirect a punch, no hard blocks
5. Power comes from within
6. Mostly Relaxed
7. Fluid
8. Slow forms ( during practise)
9. Finesse
10. Indirect
11. Circular
12. Accepting what is
13. I wait for you to attack and borrow your energy
14. Acknowledging the limitations of the self
15. Winning without fighting is best
16. Hard vs Soft and Soft Vs Hard
17. Deflect a force
18. Meditative training
19. One move flows into another, a strike is rarely singular and
usually followed by 2-3 other follow up strikes to “ finish up
the attacker” Eg . Redirect,Grab, strike, Lock then Throw
20. Few High Kicks ( hence stretches not required)
21. Effect for fighting well into 70’s, enhance health & longevity



EXTERNAL:
1. Stretches and warm-ups mandatory or self injury results
2. Reliance on muscle power
3. Stopping an attack
4. Struggling / Hard blocks against a punch instead of redirection
5. Power comes from outside
6. Always Tense
7. Defined
8. Fast kata
9. Power
10. Direct
11. Linear
12. Fighting against it
13. I attack you, and rely solely on my own energy
14. Denying any vulnerabilities
15. Destroying your opponent
16. Hard Vs Hard
17. Force Vs Force
18. Pain/Endurance training
19.Moves are disjointed, and tend not to flow into next strike
20. Many High kicks , stretches required
21. Arthiritis sets in by 50, if not muscular tremors due nerve damage to “smashing one’s hands and feet”, and multiple join/ back problems

Sorry did I sound a bit biased ?
I mean to be...I came from Shaolin and now headed to Wudang

[soggycat]

Bcullen,
I agree with your views . You're the man!
Many people here make comments without the benefit of having trained in External Arts ( Shaolin , Karate , TaeKwondo) and as such lack any first hand experience of the inefficiencies /inadequacies inherent to most External Martial Arts.
Their opinions are therefore at best academic.

[Kat]

LOL:D
Great more generalisations
Here's some more styles you might want to track down
ZiranMen, Tongbiquan, Pigua, Baji, Dagongli, Sanhuangpao, Meihuaquan, Niantui, Wushizhuang, Lianquan, Liuhebu, Xinyibu.

OMG:eek: they are all regularlly classified as Neijia.Could it be that the term Neijia is used in a less concise way in Chinese language.Yes it seems its manily westerners who place such an emphasis on the distinction.Perhaps there are linguistic and cultural misunderstandings occuring.

I would highly recommend the writing's of Wang Xiang Zhai(Yes a Chinese guy).Who was very against not only the terms of Neijia and Waijia but also the traditional master student training style of China.
Some translations can be found at
www.yiquan.com.pl

[Syd]

Discussions based around distinctions of this art and that art rarely lead to consensus, but rather further divisions. These (divisions) are inextricably brought about by the failure of the medium, by way of semantics, to adequately define the topic. The irony is that there is no way to achieve a consensus of something which is entirely personal. A Martial Art is unique to every individual; what is and is not for one person may have no relevance to another. Does this mean it is not valid? No, it is just another mans/womans path... there are no absolutes.

Train and be happy...

[Kat]

Find Peace in your Practise.Thats what it is about.
Syd
Just to be a sh*t Stirer
Theories of relativity sort of fall flat for if there is no absolute truths, then this must surely mean that there is at least One Truth,that there is no absolute Truths:rolleyes:

I would like to say that there really is no need for a consensus,nor for people to fear divisions.Sharing different preceptions should not be seen as negative but hopefully positively expanding and questioning of your own veiws.

[Syd]

Kat, :)

Truth is also one of those personal things which will frequently defy any and all absolutes. The irony is that there are absolutely no absolute truths, let alone one big truth defining other kinds of truth. There is only experiential reality which may or may not be based on what is or is not true. The problem is the the idea that things that are thought to be validated are supposedly couched in concepts of truth! Words will continue to fail us until the day comes when one man can walk in another mans shoes.

BTW* Did you not get my email asking about Sun Dafa?

I would like to say that there really is no need for a consensus,nor for people to fear divisions.Sharing different preceptions should not be seen as negative but hopefully positively expanding and questioning of your own veiws.

I agree with this sentiment from a personal perspective. The problem for me is one of prospective outcomes and probable outcomes. What is achieved when we look objectively at many of these discussions and take them to their logical ends? Most of the time people aren't discussing to broaden their horizons, but rather to reinforce a position.

Many times the discussions degenerate into something more akin to egotism than an open forum dedicated to learning and openess. Myself? I agree with your thoughts but have come to a point within myself where I am comfrotable to assert nothing much, because it's not relevant to anyone else but me. What else can be achieved other than to listen rather than speak? :) I find the less I say on these things the better, that's all.

Best, Syd

[Kat]

So True:D
Beautiful Post

[Syd]

Kat,

The e-mail I sent you mate, did you get it? I wanted to know if you knew anything about Master Sun Dafa in China Town? I don't care if you have no info, just would apreciate a confirmation either way, if you have a moment. :)

Best, Syd

[RubyMoon]

This seems like a pretty silly thread. It's really easy to define internal and external martial arts!

When you practice inside a dojo, dojang, kwoon, or any other enclosed space, you are doing an internal martial art. When you practice outside in an empty lot, park, driveway, or in your own backyard, that's an external martial art. Simple! :D

The only real confusion sets in when you practice under a gazebo. Internal or external?? Will we ever agree?

[Orange...?]

Originally posted by RubyMoon
When you practice inside a dojo, dojang, kwoon, or any other enclosed space, you are doing an internal martial art. When you practice outside in an empty lot, park, driveway, or in your own backyard, that's an external martial art. Simple! :D


Ahh.. No. Internal and external martial arts have nothing to do with practicing inside or outside. I'm no expert at this, but I know that it is not named after the practice place.

[RubyMoon]

Originally posted by IVP_Kozak
Ahh.. No. Internal and external martial arts have nothing to do with practicing inside or outside. I'm no expert at this, but I know that it is not named after the practice place. Apparently they don't have sarcasm in Canada. Sorry, my mistake! ;)

[Orange...?]

It's okey. We all are humans and make mistakes.

[Darren]

Originally posted by RubyMoon
The only real confusion sets in when you practice under a gazebo.

No confusion at all. White crane is considered a soft-hard style vis a vis an internal-external style. And we trained under a big tree a few times thus keeping up appearances :D

[shotokanwarrior]

Originally posted by IVP_Kozak
Internal martial art is a training of your inner body. I know a martial art called "Iron Shirt". It helps you to train the body to become very hard and strong, and you wont be able to put a spear throw your stomach (after maybe 10 years of training). It also teaches you "balance". I have the book, and there is a picture of five guys pushing one person, but he doesn't even move. This is a one martial art I want to be a part of :p



Colour reset from yellow in the interests of accessibility: Yoda
IVP Kozak, could you tell me some more about Iron Shirt? it sounds kick-ass. i'd love to be that hard, i wouldn't mind having to spend half my life conditioning.
shotokanwarrior

[Darren]

It's about focusing the chi at the point you're going to be hit. This means cultivating chi for a long time (years) and being able to guide it.

I know someone who lies in ironbridge position (two chairs about 1.5m apart, feet on one, head on another, so the body is a bridge between the two chairs) and someone attempts to chop him in half with an axe. (The axe is a proper fireman's axe... 3ft handle, nice sharp head.) They do this sort of thing in Chinatown (London) every year for Chinese New Year.

Other 'tricks' include having spears pushed into neck without penetrating skin, breaking huge vases on the head (I recall some 85 yr old man used to do this), washing the face with smashed glass (obviously without removing nose, the odd iris, etc) and standing on hands with legs spread apart while a colleague takes a plank of wood and hits between legs (apparently a real crowd pleaser, this, and no, the guy didn't speak with a squeaky voice ;) ).

[Orange...?]

Originally posted by shotokanwarrior
IVP Kozak, could you tell me some more about Iron Shirt? it sounds kick-ass. i'd love to be that hard, i wouldn't mind having to spend half my life conditioning.
shotokanwarrior

Sure. I can't tell you much about it, I only began to read the book, but I found a website about a book I have. I can't get the link to work, so just go to www.google.ca and type in:
iron shirt martial art
the third link would be it. I hope this was helpful.

[Shade]

someone attempts to chop him in half with an axe. (The axe is a proper fireman's axe... 3ft handle, nice sharp head.) They do this sort of thing in Chinatown (London) every year for Chinese New Year.

They do it every other day of the year as well, except that its the Triads killing each other. :D

[soggycat]

Iron Shirt , more accurately Iron Cloth Shirt (Teet Poh Sam) Kung Fu, is a specialised area of Internal Martial Art.
Basically one trains to develop Chi to " insulate" the body from severe external blows, and to speed up the healing of any residual injuries.
There are 2 known teachers in Sydney and they charge something like $60 -75 ph
www.yangmian.com ( Master Yang)
and
http://www.invisiblemaster.com/ ( Sifu Marko Vesse)

Marko was Yang's senior student until they parted on bad terms , and Marko set up his own school.
Yang claims Marko did not complete training, and is therefore limited in skill.
Who knows, I'm not taking sides.
I'm told Yang forbid his students from communicating / fratenising with other students
Go figure.
There are some really fascinating video clips on both websites that show " feats" of strength.
Like crushing rocks by pounding with bare nands, absorbing baseball bat / sledghammer blows , and having a truck roll over one's body.


Does Iron Shirt work .
YES !
What's wrong with it ?
It shortens your life, because everytime one " turns on the power" to abosorb the blows or perform a " stunt", one is draining one's Chi at a phenomenal rate.
And remember Chi is " lifeforce"
In other words , use too much of it, and you have less of it to live on.
Even daily meditation / Chiking may not be able to "recharge" you up sufficiently.

This information can be found on the internet, and is confirmed by INTERNALMartial Artists whoare trained in Traditional Chinese Medicine.
My own Taoist master, who has Iron Shirt ability , confirms this.
In other words, if you should train in Iron Shirt, use it sparingly, might like to keep that in mind when you're showing off as a party trick.

[Orange...?]

Wow thanks soggycat. You know more than I do... :p
Nice webs.

[nzric]

Great post soggycat.

As far as I know, iron shirt is not so much a martial art, as health and conditioning training used to complement your martial art.

[Darren]

Originally posted by soggycat
Does Iron Shirt work .
YES !
What's wrong with it ?
It shortens your life, because everytime one " turns on the power" to abosorb the blows or perform a " stunt", one is draining one's Chi at a phenomenal rate.
And remember Chi is " lifeforce"
In other words , use too much of it, and you have less of it to live on.


Interesting, except surely you're not draining chi so much as moving it to concentrate one part of your body (then letting it dissipate/circulate away later)? If you expel chi for striking then maybe that's different but in terms of iron shirt (as opposed to iron palm) surely the chi isn't being lost?

Maybe I just don't know enough about chi mechanics... any good books to read?

[Jeffrey Quinn]

The meaning of internal and external in martial arts, and which styles belong in which, has changed a lot over the centuries.

The terms neijiaquan and waijiaquan come from Huang Zongxi's "Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan" (1669) Huang Zongxi was a respected historian, so this book has been given a lot of attention over the following centuries. However, this book is a political satire criticizing the then new Qing dynasty, which he saw as a foreign conqueror. [Stanley Henning, Academia Encounters the Martial Arts, University of Hawaii Press, 1999]

Huang used the terms to mean domestic and foreign. Wudang styles were neijia or domestic. "Buddhist" styles were waijia or foreign. (Whether or not any buddhist monasteries ACTUALLY had any historical association with martial arts is another subject . . . ;) As an aside, what we now call Taiji was, if it actually existed at this time, pretty much unknown, and not included in "internal".

Prior to this book, the terms had no martial significance. As time passed, everyone wanted to classify their style as one or the other, and the meaning of the two terms changed.

At the present time, the major neijia styles in China are Xingyi, Bagua, Taiji & Tongbeiquan, as well as all styles derived from them. Serious neijia students often practice more than one of these. Xingyi and Bagua are usually taught together. Several lesser-known styles also self-identify as neijia.

The definition of external or waijia, as far as I can tell, is anything that isn't specifically neijia :) Most family styles and so-called "Shaolin" are usually waijia.

Most of the really tough guys in China belong to the various neijia styles. Xingyi and Bagua were common styles for bodyguards. However, lots of "waijia" people were famous for being great fighters. Hung Gar / Hong Family Quan and Hongquan (different Hong) spring to mind.

My personal opinion is that the separation into internal and external was probably detrimental to Chinese martial arts. Sometimes I suspect that different styles in one region tend to resemble each other more than they resemble the same style in a different region. All the tough old guys I've met have certain things in common. That is to say, the "external" guys move and act more like what I associate with "internal".

As to what these terms mean in contemporary China, the above postings explain fairly well.

Applying these terms to non-Chinese martial arts is (in my humble opinion) a waste of time unless you are registering in an open martial arts tournament.

[gerard]

Kudos for your post Jeffrey. Good to see genuine people (amongst others) posting in a land populated by TROLLS.

Gan bei.

[Jeffrey Quinn]

Thanks. I was fortunate enough to get a scholarship to study Chinese in Shandong Province for two years, so I got to see a lot of Chinese martial arts stuff firsthand. There's a lot of confusion even there, especially regarding internal / external & MA history.

The best English-language information on CMA history that I've been able to find is an author called Stanley Henning. Some of his articles are available on the internet, but some require a trip to your local university library and inter-library loans. My favourite is "Academia Encounters the Martial Arts", which I think was published by the University of Hawaii Press.

This is a little but of a digression on this thread, but for information on martial art weapons, I recommend http://www.swordforum.com . They require an actual name, not nicknames, and have a very low tolerance for badly informed posts. They expect new members to thoroughly read through and search existing forums and threads before posting, in order to learn the rules and to avoid duplication of posts. Their moderators are very active. Some of the members are also very knowledgeable about the history of military activity & martial arts in Asia.

[shotokanwarrior]

he had some guesses about the distinction for internal and external MA...and they were wrong.


SHE had some guesses.

[AAAhmed46]

Ive noticed the main response from this thread is 'breath' goes with 'internal'

[ZillaBilla]

With regards to the Iron Shirt being bad for you, by draining your 'Qi'. In internal 'Iron Shirt' training, there are 'QI Gong' exercises that replenish the 'Qi', these should really be done after any 'Qi Gong' that depletes ones 'Qi'. Thus, maintaining a balance.

Plus, I've also heard that the hitting actions done for 'Iron Shirt' actually pack 'Qi' in to the outside of the body, though I would think if you’re manifesting expansive 'Qi' to ward off the hits, thus emitting Yang 'Qi', you would in turn be receiving Yin 'Qi' from the hits, this would probably make your body weaker. I’m not at all sure about this Yin/Yang exchange though, but I would think that’s how it works and it being the reason that 'Iron Shirt' is bad for you, if you don’t replenish your 'Qi'.