The beginner's guide to flexibility

[Van Zandt]

A lot of the same questions regarding flexibility development are asked repeatedly, even though many have been already been answered. To save time for newbies (and some oldies) using the "search" function or posting the same questions again and again, I have prepared this thread with answers to some of the most common questions on stretching. Follow the steps in this thread and be prepared for awesome splits and that all-time classic party trick of kicking yourself in the head. The information contained here is not just beneficial to kicking-orientated arts, but to other styles (hip flexibility in particular will be useful to BJJ and wrestling exponents) and to your general well-being also. Hopefully you will find this resource useful. Enjoy.

Why is flexibility important?

It makes life easier and saves trips to the chiropractor. Why? Well, sufficiently developing your flexibility means that learning and perfecting athletic skills is so much easier. Even some of the most basic techniques demand a moderate level of flexibility. Many martial arts techniques leave the skeleto-muscular system prone to fatigue and trauma (injuries), therefore being flexible will help greatly reduce the risk of buggering yourself up. "How?" you might ask... Well, if you can't get your body into an optimal position during a technique, you will negatively impact on your coordination. Your body, being the fine machine that it is, will compensate for this by increasing the demands on other available muscles that can be recruited into the technique. I.e. the wrong muscles are being contracted and you're on your way to starring in the "Hunchback of Notre Dame" musical as the title role. As you become more flexible (properly) your strength, speed and coordination will improve. A lack of flexibility will impair these qualities, all of which are fundamental to the correct execution of so many techniques.

Why will stretching help me?

It will make you more flexible. Duh! But stretching can also speed up the rate of recovery following an intensive workout. It won't prevent muscle soreness. The phenomenon that causes muscle soreness is no why related to increasing flexibility. But it can have something to do with decreasing flexibility. After training your muscles can be shortened by intense contractions in the epimysium (muscle belly). The average time required for muscles to return to their normal length (that is, their length before training) is 3 to 5 hours. Performing stretches immediately following your main workout can help reduce this time, thus limiting the amount of metabolic damage to the muscle cells. In a sense, it helps speed up recovery. As mentioned above, stretching to increase flexibility will reduce the likelihood of injury. Your muscles shorten after workouts that cause muscle soreness, so imagine how much they shorten following an injury? A heck of a lot. Not only does a muscle heal at a shorter length, the affected muscle is also more susceptible to the same injury. Think of stretching as a preventative measure; it's easier to gain and keep flexibility when you are healthy than it is to regain lost flexibility through injury. Stretching also prepares your body for the demands imposed during the workout; but pay attention to the SAID principle (Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands). Your stretching must meet the requirements of your workout - that is, it must closely simulate the skill you will be performing. That's where you need to know about types of flexibility and their related stretching methods.

What are the types of flexibility?

There are three types of flexibility you should be concerned with, which are defined by the action of the agonist muscle (the one that does all the work during a movement) and whether or not there is an external force acting to hold or increase the range of motion. The three types of flexibility are as follows:

1. Dynamic flexibility

"Dynamic" means "vibrant" or "energetic". It is flexibility in motion. You perform dynamic movements through a full range of motion permitted by the joints, for example, leg raises. Dynamic stretching is used to develop dynamic flexibility. You are essentially relaxing the extended (antagonist) muscles while simultaneously contracting the moving (agonist) muscles through a plane of motion. In the front leg raise, the hamstring group (biceps femoris, semimembranosus and semitendinosus) are the antagonists (they relax) while the quadriceps (rectus femoris, vastus medialis, vastus lateralis, vastus intermedius and sartorius) are the agonist (they contract). Dynamic flexibility is fundamental to many martial arts techniques, not least the high and powerful kicks that feature in many combat systems. You can develop your maximum level of dynamic flexibility without doing the splits!

2. Static-active flexibility

You ever seen those awesome gymnasts who hold their leg vertical with seemingly little effort? Well, they're displaying a high level of static-active flexibility. This type of flexibility involves extending a limb and holding it using only the tension of the agonists, while simultaneously stretching the antagonists. If you were to hold a front kick at head height, the quadriceps are the agonists and the hamstrings are the antagonists; you hold the leg up using only the tension of the quadriceps while at the same time stretching the hamstrings. And, yup, you guessed it: you develop static-active flexibility through static-active stretching. This type of flexibility is not necessary for a lot of martial arts styles. Most techniques are dynamic in nature without pausing during the technique or combination of techniques. This does not mean it is not useful, however. It is great for developing strength, and is handy for performing high-grade Tae Kwon-Do forms such as Moon-Moo Tul. It's also handy if you want to become the next Jean-Claude Van Damme as this type of flexibility seems to impress non-martial arts bods more than any other.

3. Static-passive flexibility

This is the oldest and most common form of flexibility - taking up a stretch and just holding it. What is the most awe-inspiring stretch you can think of? The splits! (Although some of the more disturbed members will more than likely be thinking of ladies who can lick certain orifices that shouldn't be anatomically possible...) This is the only type of flexibility that doesn't involve stretches that share the same namesake, and is the only type of flexibility that has more than one method for its development. The two types of stretching are: relaxed (also called static) and isometric (also called PNF). If you paid attention to the bit about the SAID principle, you might be asking "Why bother with static-passive flexibility if the techniques in my martial art are dynamic?" The answer: Dynamic and static-passive flexibility share a unique relationship and each has an indirect effect on the other. You can consider yourself sufficiently flexible when your maximal range of motion exceeds the requirements of your sport by at least 20%. The difference between your flexibility and the requirements of your sport is called the flexibility reserve. The range of motion in your dynamic stretching depends upon, and is affected by, the range of motion in your static-passive stretches, and vice versa. Static-active stretching does not feature in this relationship.

What happens when I stretch?

When you stretch, the nervous system activates the myotatic reflex. Also called the stretch reflex, this mechanism is your body's natural defence against muscle tears. It is essentially reigning your muscles in when it feels they have gone too far. The good news is that you can train this reflex to fire much later, thus improving your pre-tensile range of motion (i.e. how far you can stretch before your muscles tense up. This equals deeper splits and higher kicks). Research has shown that connective tissues (tendons, ligaments and fascia) also lengthen over many applications of stretches, which can delay the onset of age-related reductions in flexibility.

Do my genes affect my flexibility?

Kind of. Trying to understand the factors affecting flexibility is a complicated issue and I have neither the time nor space to go into great detail here. But I will cover the bare essentials for your entertainment pleasure. First off, the anatomy and physiology of your joints affect flexibility, as do the elasticity of ligaments and tendons. Good news if you're female: you have a genetic advantage in the Great Flexibility Race. Females often have a greater amplitude of movement in the hips due to anatomical differences in bone structure. Females have a high reservoir of the chemical Relaxin, which decreases resistance in the flexion of ligaments (for when that baby is due). Females (apart from those who enjoy a cocktail of steroids with their evening meal) tend to have less muscle mass around the joints, thus decreasing the amount of meat they have to lug around in a stretch. Age is possibly the most important factor to consider because it has the greatest impact on flexibility. Small children are, generally, very flexibility, which decreases until puberty, then picks up again during adolescence. Once they hit adulthood, however, flexibility declines with age. This decline can be delayed through regular physical exercise (particularly strength training). It is possible to still perform full splits at any age - even in your 80s and 90s. Your state of mind also affects your flexibility. The simple way to think of this is: happy thoughts = nice splits, unhappy thoughts = bad splits. Don't stretch if you're in a mood. Best to stretch when you're happy. But don't try to stretch when you're in the middle of pleasing your lady/man friend as they won't be too happy if you attempt a front split during fornication. The time of day when you stretch will determine the gains you make in range of motion; you will generally make better gains in the evening than in early morning. The sequence of efforts in a workout have a big impact on how far you can stretch - get it right and you can have full splits and high kicks very quickly; get it wrong and you'll be at the same level five years from now. Strength has a direct effect on flexibility. A lack of strength means your body is not strong enough to support itself in various positions. The stronger a muscle is, the less activation is required to support a given load. The stronger you are, the more flexible you can become. So hit those weights.

How do I arrange my stretches in a workout?

Dynamic stretching first (during the warm-up), isometric stretching after the main part, followed by relaxed stretching. It's that simple. So many people get this wrong and still wonder why they are sore after every workout and see little or zero progress after years of training. Here is a more detailed explanation:

1. General warm-up. Start with rotations to loosen up the joints, then follow this with light cardiovascular exercises. Marching, jogging on the spot and skipping rope are great examples. Don't do strength exercises here. Lay off the press-ups, sit-ups, squats, burpees and other callisthenic exercises until the strength portion of your workout. And don't do jumping jacks. Ever.

2. Specific warm-up. Now is the time to do your dynamic stretches. Follow these with milder versions of the skill you will be attempting in the main part. If you're throwing high kicks in the main part, your specific warm-up should consist of dynamic stretches followed by low- and medium-height kicks.

3. Main part. Do technique before speed. Do speed before strength. Do strength before endurance. Always.

4. Cool-down. Do isometric stretches followed by relaxed stretches. Did isometric stretches yesterday? Lay off them today and do only relaxed stretches. Isometric stretches are a strength exercise and should be treated as such. Leave at least 24 hours between applications.

What if all I want to do is increase flexibility?

Skip the specific warm-up and just do dynamic stretches, static-active stretches, isometric stretches and relaxed stretches in that order. Take out the ones you don't want/need.

My coach makes us do static stretches at the beginning of a workout. Why not now?

Change your coach. No offence, but any "instructor" who makes you do static stretches before dynamic actions has no clue about correct principles of sports training. Static stretching decreases strength by impairing activation of the stretched muscles for up to five minutes following the stretch, and contractile force for up to one hour. If the goal of your workout is to display high, powerful kicks, then why would you want to do stretches that temporarily reduce force production, enhance drowsiness, and do not adequately prepare you for the skill in question? The methodology of your training must change to adhere to the correct principles of sports training if you want good results fast.

I buggered various body parts in my last injury. Should I still stretch?

So you're sore, huh? If you want to increase flexibility, don't stretch. You'll only compound the problem. Face up to the fact you're injured (I know, it can be a hard pill to swallow) and focus on relieving pain and preventing excessive loss of flexibility. Follow the advice of your doctor/physician until you are sufficiently healed, then get back on the right track and train properly and sensibly. Keep your chin up and you'll soon be well again.

The least you need to know:

- Dynamic and static-passive stretching are essential if you want to be great at kicking and other skills.

- Dynamic stretching, static-active stretching, isometric stretching and relaxed stretching, in that order.

- Don't do isometric or relaxed stretches before your main workout.

- Your genes will not prevent you from doing the splits.

- Be happy = greater gains in flexibility.

- Maintain correct alignment, or you may end up with your big toe in your ear.

- Strength is essential for flexibility.

- Flexibility will be greater later on in the day.

So how do I do dynamic stretches?

Dynamic stretching involves moving your limbs while gradually increasing the velocity and range of the movement. It doesn't involve stopping or holding the limb in the stretched-out position. You do not bounce or jerk. The movement should be controlled throughout the full plane of motion. Russian researcher Matvyev (Matveev) explained that 12 repetitions is the optimal number per set. Do enough sets until you reach your maximum for that stage of training. A decrease in height is an indication to stop. Don't do dynamic stretches when you are sore or tired. Doing so will reduce your dynamic flexibility, which is something I'm sure you don't want. The following guide has proven useful to many people in achieving maximal dynamic flexibility:

Set 1: knee height / 25% maximal velocity
Set 2: waist height / 50% maximal velocity
Set 3: chest height / 75% maximal velocity
Set 4: shoulder height / 85-90% maximal velocity
Set 5: head height / 100% maximal velocity

Dynamic stretching is very convenient. It forms part of your warm-up and only takes 15 minutes tops to develop an increase in flexibility. The optimal frequency is twice a day, every day. It is possible to display your maximal dynamic flexibility in just 8-10 weeks of applying dynamic stretches. Do them in the morning upon waking (before breakfast) and at the beginning of your workout in the evening. Dynamic stretches do not fatigue; if you get tired doing them, you're doing too many (use the guide I outlined above) or you need to see a doctor! The morning routine helps reset the nervous regulation of the length of your muscles for the rest of the day. You don't need to do actual combat techniques (such as kicks) in the morning workout. You also don't need to do a cool-down. If you have time, do relaxed stretches after your dynamic stretches. Personally, I don't bother because once per day is the optimal frequency for performing relaxed stretches (more on that later). But if it makes you feel better, then do them.

Do dynamic stretches to the front, side and to the rear, on each leg. Alternate sides between sets, i.e. do leg lifts to the front on your left leg, then on your right leg, (or vice versa if you want to be pedantic), before doing lifts to the side and rear. Note that I said "lift". You start the movements slowly and gently, gradually increasing the height and velocity of the stretch. You do not throw or force them! Keep your breathing as normal as possible. If you're breathing like a thirteen-year old kid watching his first ever porno, you're doing them too hard and/or too fast. I'll say it again: Start slowly and gently. After the first couple of sets you should have nearly reached your full range of motion. When you reach this point, begin increasing the velocity of the movements. The last few inches will be less controlled but they should never be sudden. Stretch at no less than 75% maximal velocity used in your actual skill after the first few sets of dynamic stretching.

Demonstration of the front lift: http://parisi.squarespace.com/storage/wasserman18.JPG

Demonstration of the side left: http://www.fightingarts.com/content00/graphics/yokohand.jpg

Demonstration of the rear lift: http://www.kungfula.com/new-photos/EO-Back-Kick-Michael-large.jpg

The least you need to know:

- Dynamic stretches are easy and convenient.

- You can develop maximal levels of dynamic flexibility in a short time, and the time needed to maintain these levels will gradually decrease.

- You don't need to do a warm-up for the early morning dynamic stretching session. Joint rotations, dynamic stretches and (if you have time) relaxed stretches are sufficient.

- The sooner you do them, the sooner you see results.

Cool, I got the dynamic stretches down. How do I do isometric stretches?

Ah, isometrics. The fastest method for increasing static-passive flexibility. In fact, they're 267% more effective than relaxed stretches. They're beautiful. No really, they are. They not only improve passive flexibility but active flexibility also, as well as strength in concentric, isometric and eccentric actions. They can cause longitudinal growth of muscle fibres and you don't have to do them every day! Down side is, they hurt like hell if you're not used to them. Only attempt them if you regularly train strength for the muscles you wish to stretch.

Isometric stretching is easy. You add strong tensions during static stretches, which induce a post-contractive stretch reflex depression and allow you to move into a greater range of motion. All you do is stretch, tense, relax and stretch again, repeating this up to your maximum. Not surprisingly it's also referred to as Contract-Relax Stretching. It's also known as Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation, which if you can spell then splits should be easy! PNF stretches were developed as a rehabilitation technique for stroke patients to recover normal functional movement. But here we'll refer to them as isometric stretches because you apply isometric tensions.

Do isometric stretches two to three times a week. Once you achieve your desired level of flexibility you need only do them once per week for maintenance. Isometric stretches are great for breaking through plateaus, which usually occur at 10-12 inches from the floor (in the side split). Only do isometrics when you are ready. I'm psychic so I already know what you're going to ask. How do you know when you're ready? Try them. If you're sore the day after, you ain't ready. You should be able to squat a load equal to your own body weight and run 2 to 3 miles without getting sore before you ready to REALLY do them. Don't do them if you're a child or going through the growth spurt. If your body isn't ready for them, you will get sore. If you're really unlucky, you can cause a complete tear in the muscle - something you definitely don't want. Preparation will take time, I know, but suck it up and do the job properly or you'll never get your splits. Better to take you time and get it right than rush things and end up going to the physiotherapist for a year, right?

If you're really, really, really sore (i.e. for 3 or more days) then strength (or lack thereof) is the issue. Hit the weights and try isometrics after two or three months. It's a trial-and-error thing. It's something we all had to go through (unless you're a mutant), so think of it like a rite of passage. If you're sore for more than 7 days, you're injured. Go see a physician.

Right now you're probably thinking how you build strength for isometrics, eh? See, told you I'm psychic. Ideally you want to build strength through a full range of motion. In your workout do basic exercises such as the squat, lunge, deadlift and good morning, followed by dynamic-strength exercises such as hamstring/adductor flies and pulldowns.

Do isometric stretches at the end of your main workout (ideally straight after your strength training). A solid session of isometrics should take 30 minutes tops, which isn't all that long if you think of the rewards you're going to get (lovely, lovely splits... ooh, I just love the splits). Stretch as far as comfortably possible (don't worry, comfort will end soon) and tense up the stretched muscles. Tense for about 5-7 seconds, gradually increasing the tension until about the third or fourth second when you reach your maximal tension. The last one or two seconds should be held at 100% of your maximal voluntary contractile strength. Then release the tension and immediately (i.e. without delay) increase the stretch. Don't wait more than a second after releasing the tension before increasing the stretch; waiting longer than five seconds means you're wasting your time. Repeat the process until you reach your maximal limit for that stage of training. When you're at your maximum hold one final tension for 30 seconds. Come out of the stretch, rest a few minutes, then repeat for 3 to 5 sets.

Eventually you will hit a plateau. When this happens, tense harder, or longer, or both. Eventually the strength gains you make will translate into a greater stretch. And remember: never, ever do isometric stretches when you are sore. You only need one exercise per muscle group so front splits and side splits will do. Here are photographic examples:

http://www.drillsandskills.com/images/stretches/sp004.jpg

http://www.stadion.com/gif/oliver_klettner.jpg

Without the chairs, obviously.

Get a pain in the top of your hips when you do the side split? Rotate your pelvis more. That pain is you jamming the top head of your femur (thigh bone) into your acetabulum (hip socket). Bye bye cartilage, hello hip replacement! Seriously though, you got to rotate your pelvis if you want to touch your crown jewels (if you have them) to the floor.

The least you need to know:

- Do isometric stretches at the end of your workout following your main strength routine, and leave at least 24 hours between applications.

- Never do isometrics when you are sore.

- If experience soreness for several days following every application of isometric stretches, you are tensing too hard, too much, or both, or you are not yet ready for them.

Great, so how do I do relaxed stretches?

Simple - just don't tense up when you stretch. Focus on complete relaxation. Stretch as far as comfortably possible then wait patiently until the tension dissipates. Then "pick up the slack" by moving into a greater range of motion. When you start to fidget (a sign you're not relaxing) or get muscle spasms, slowly get out of the stretch. Relax and repeat once more. The optimal frequency for relaxed stretches is once per day. Hold the stretch at its maximum for thirty seconds, or a minute if you like. No need to hold it for longer because it achieves nothing. Important point alert! Waiting out the tension on the way to your maximum can take several minutes. So as long as you feel the tension start to disappear after 30 seconds and the stretch becomes easier to hold, you're doing fine. If the tension doesn't start to fade after 30 seconds, you start to sweat or your muscles start to tremble, hit the big red ejector button and get out of the stretch.

Do relaxed stretches in place of or after isometric stretches. Relaxed stretches are slow so you must do them every day for them to be effective. But, you can them any time of day without a warm-up and they do not make you tired. Remember to be patient with relaxed stretches, during applications and over the longer term. You only need one exercise per muscle group - the front and side splits demonstrated above should be sufficient.

The least you need to know:

- You can do relaxed stretches any time, any where and without a warm-up.

- You must be patient when doing relaxed stretches - don't time yourself!

- Never bounce in any type of stretch.

- Do relaxed stretches at the very end of your workout(s).

- Once per day is the optimal frequency for relaxed stretches.

- Rotate your pelvis to prevent pain occurring at the top of your hips.

How do I develop static-active flexibility?

It is difficult to develop static-active flexibility to the level of your dynamic or static-passive flexibility. The best way to develop this type of flexibility is to use a combination of both isometric tensions (isometric stretching) and dynamic strength exercises (hamstring and adductor pulldowns, flies, etc). One example is you can continually raise and lower your leg to the side in one slow continuous motion, followed by holding your leg at the maximum height for 5-10 seconds. Your level of static-active flexibility depends mostly on your static-passive flexibility and static strength.

To perform these stretches simply extend your leg to the front, side and rear and hold it for as long as possible. I'm not going to insult your intelligence by including pictures. Don't use your hands to support the stretch. Remember you're trying to build the strength of the agonists (the muscles at work) so by using your hands you will be cheating yourself out of a good workout. It's tough, it's designed to be tough for a reason - because only those who try hard and put in the work will reap the rewards. There are no shortcuts to achieving great flexibility.

The least you need to know:

- You don't need to do static-active stretches if all you're interested in is high kicks and splits.

- Holding your leg to the side can stress the vertebrae of the spine. After every set of holding your leg to the side do some forward bends to release this build-up of pressure.

- For a decent-enough static-active flexibility workout all you really need to do is three sets of holding your leg to the front, side and rear, for 10 seconds per set on each side.

How long will it take me to achieve the splits?

That depends on your initial levels of strength and flexibility. It can take anywhere from 2 weeks to 6 months, but it definitely takes less than one year to display full splits. If it takes longer than this, then your method of stretching is wrong.

My hip pops when I do leg raises. Why is that?

Increased flexibility may cause greater frequency of joint clicking or popping, resulting from an enhanced leverage of the joint's bones. Painless clicking or popping is usually harmless, especially if followed by the feeling of release of tension and by increase mobility. If in doubt, consult a qualified medical practitioner.

What books or DVDs do you recommend?

Stretching Scientifically (book) or Secrets of Stretching by Thomas Kurz. That's where I got all my information from. You really will not find a more qualified authority or extensive resource on the science of stretching.

Should I use a stretching machine?

You don't need one. But, they can be useful for performing relaxed side splits (toes-up version) if your knees are too weak to support your body weight in the toes-forward side split. I explain how and why in the article that can be found by clicking on the following link:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10578119

My martial arts instructor insists on doing static stretches during the warm-up. What should I do?

Find a new instructor. One who knows the correct principles of sports training.

Is it possible to display a full split without warming up first?

Yes. This usually occurs one to two months after you first achieve a full split. Eventually you can work your way up to a hanging or suspended split between two chairs.

Should I use partners in stretching?

No. Partners do not know when you have gone too far in a stretch. By the time they respond and ease off on the stretch, it might be too late. Anything you can do with a partner or machine you can do just as well (sometimes better) with a nice, solid floor.

Well, there you have it folks. A beginner's guide to flexibility and (hopefully) the most common questions answered. If you can think of any questions not raised here, feel free to post and I (and others) will do our best to answer. Promise we'll lay off the sarcasm. (Well, at least a little bit.)

[Gary]

Seriously good stretching post, stickied. ;)

[Omicron]

Great post! :D

And props for recommending Stretching Scientifically. My personal favourite stretching book, as well. Consider the recommendation seconded ;)

[Vimtoforblood]

This might be a VERY stupid question....
but - why no star jumps?

[Van Zandt]

There is no technique in sports that is similar to and can be improved by doing jumping jacks, but what is more important jumping jacks can neurologically disorganize a person. Jumping jacks, even for normal persons, can cause regression to an out-of-sync, homolateral pattern of locomotion (left arm swings forward with the left leg, right arm with right leg) and a vague feeling of confusion. An instructor who makes athletes do jumping jacks shows ignorance of exercise physiology, proper methods of training, and pedagogy. Jumping jacks raise the blood level of lactate before the main part of the workout and they are not a lead-up exercise for any technique.

[Vimtoforblood]

Worth knowing.
Thanks for all the information in the OP.
Time to start thinking about things differently...

[Vimtoforblood]

Interestingly despite most people slating TMA classes as not following any of these priciples, my TKD classes used to follow this general plan.

1. General warm-up. Loosening exercises followed by light cardio.
2. Dynamic stretches - leg raises. Front, side mainly.
3. "Main body" of class.
4. Cool-down. Isometric stretches, followed by relaxed stretches.

[Van Zandt]

Interestingly despite most people slating TMA classes as not following any of these priciples, my TKD classes used to follow this general plan.

1. General warm-up. Loosening exercises followed by light cardio.
2. Dynamic stretches - leg raises. Front, side mainly.
3. "Main body" of class.
4. Cool-down. Isometric stretches, followed by relaxed stretches.

Then yours is one of the few! Lucky you ;) :cool:

[bphan002]

Hi Superfoot,

I know a million of people are going to argue with me about jumping jacks being bad for you and I've been trying to find a source with proof. Do you have it by any chance?

[Van Zandt]

http://www.stadion.com/column_stretch12.html

[Patrick Smith]

Hi. I watched Tomas Kurz's DVD about stretching and apparently it works very well. Most customers get a full side and front split within 2-3 months.

My only problem is that I don't want to build so much muscle mass... I want to get the flexibility and the strength but if I can, I'd prefer to avoid as much muscle mass as possible.

My questions:

Can I do his entire routine without developing so much muscle mass?

Can I do his stretching routine without using so many weights? or without weights at all?

Can I do his stretching routine even if I have weak knees (I'm trying to strengthen them with Hindu Squats)?

Can I possibly do his stretching routine without all the workout?

Thanks.

Edit:

These people did Kurz's routine but apparently didn't get all the bulk...

http://stylestash.com/split_1.png

http://stylestash.com/split_2.png

http://stylestash.com/split_3.png

What did they do differently? Sorry...I'm very confused right now...

[Van Zandt]

Can I do his entire routine without developing so much muscle mass?

Yes. In fact, it is near impossible to significantly increase muscle mass with the program Kurz offers (high rep, low weight). Note that strength does not necessarily mean size, and vice versa.

Can I do his stretching routine without using so many weights? or without weights at all?

Yes. You can achieve maximum flexibility through body weight exercises alone.

Can I do his stretching routine even if I have weak knees (I'm trying to strengthen them with Hindu Squats)?

Keep up with the Hindu squats and you will be fine.

Can I possibly do his stretching routine without all the workout?

Yes, but don't expect quick progress.

[Patrick Smith]

Superfoot to the rescue! :)

Yes. In fact, it is near impossible to significantly increase muscle mass with the program Kurz offers (high rep, low weight). Note that strength does not necessarily mean size, and vice versa.

Good. Then I'll do his program completely.


Yes. You can achieve maximum flexibility through body weight exercises alone.

Great! I'll do all his exercises without weights for now. I don't think my knees simply aren't up to it.


Keep up with the Hindu squats and you will be fine.

The arch supports in my feet have collapsed some and that caused my knee to get twisted out of it's natural position. That's why I'm cautious about doing any knee intense exercises.

My doctor gave me some shoe inserts (that I wear in my training shoes as well as regular shoes) and that's stopped it from getting any worse. It's also corrected most of the twist. I'm using Hindu squats to hopefully build them back up.

I actually have two questions about Hindu squats: should I do more then 100 a day, and when I do them, should I let my heel come off the floor or not? I've heard both ways are right but also that letting your heel come off the floor is bad for you knees... ?

Back to Kurz, does his book have a written routine for the average workout? His DVD had so much stuff in it that I was a little overwhelmed..

[Van Zandt]

This video should help:

YouTube - Hindu push-ups and Hindu squats

He starts doing squats around the 3:00 mark.

[Mitlov]

Great thread, Superfoot. I learned a ton already.

A question about side lifts. It's not clear to me from your illustration whether the torso should be tilted slightly forward or kept vertical in that direction. Also, whether it should be tilted slightly to the side (away from the lifting leg) or kept vertical in that direction. Finally, should the toes of your standing foot be pointed forward (in the direction your navel is pointing), away from the lifting leg, or halfway in between?

Thanks!

[xie zhenwu]

Hi Superfoot,

Ini thread baru berguna. This is a useful thread.

[Van Zandt]

Xie Zhenwu,

Terimakasih. (Thanks :D)

[Van Zandt]

Mitlov,

It's inevitable your upper torso will want to lean over when you do side lifts. This is fine,. However, try to lean back (away from your leg) rather than to the side.

Regarding pointing your toes of the supporting foot: short answer, "whichever direction is most comfortable for you." As long as you're not in pain or fall over when you do the lifts, where you point your feet doesn't matter all that much.

[Ninja Monkey]

how to get last 3 or 4 inches on center split how to incress the height of my side kicks just follower the stretch plan?

i wana do teakwondo and Hung gar and gymnastics

[Van Zandt]

how to get last 3 or 4 inches on center split how to incress the height of my side kicks just follower the stretch plan?

In your isometric stretches tense harder, longer, or both. Wear a rucksack containing weights. Do strength exercises through the full range of motion. Focus on the strength gains; in time this will translate into greater flexibility.

For increasing the height of your kicks do dynamic stretches twice a day.

[Matt B]

I've read the beginners guide to flexibility a few times now but due to my low mental capacity most evenings these days (work is hards at the moment lol) I'm sure i'm not getting it. So like so many others i thought i would post up a cobbled together work out and beg for feedback...

Currently i exercise 6 days a week first thing in the morning at the work gym and outside on a Sat morning. Typically 45 mins after i wake up (time to have breakfast, drive to work etc. Within this i do weights (body part split) Mon/Wed/Fri and cardio (nasty anaerobic stuff!) the other days. Currently I do 10 mins at a slow to medium pace warm up on either the treadmill or cross trainer then some basic stretches you see 99% of people doing in the gym.

What i hope to add to the above is as follows (think i stole this from Superfoot somewhere!):

1. Rotate all of your joints 10-20 times in each direction.
2. Lift your legs up and down to the front at knee height 12 times on each leg. Repeat to the side and to the rear.
3. Lift your legs up and down to the front at waist height 12 times on each leg. Repeat to the side and to the rear.
4. Lift your legs up and down to the front at chest height 12 times on each leg. Repeat to the side and to the rear.
5. Lift your legs up and down to the front at shoulder height 12 times on each leg. Repeat to the side and to the rear.
6. Lift your legs up and down to the front at head height 12 times on each leg. Repeat to the side and to the rear.
7. Slide into a front split until you feel tension. Wait in the position until the tension disappears (may take several seconds to several minutes). When the tension disappears slide further. Repeat this cycle until you can't go any further. Repeat with the other leg forward.
8. Repeat #7 with the side split stretch.

Then with a bit of a warm up do this again in the evening.

What i'm not sure on is 2 things (i think)...

1. Is this a good stretching routine to do twice a day every day to get all round results (e.g. can kick higher, harder, hold leg out longer etc)?
2. Where to fit this in with my warm up - weights/cardio - cool down :rolleyes:

I havent been to kickboxing much of late (again a work club) but I'm going to make a real effort to go once my instructor and I are both back from hols (in late September). When i go back I'd quite like to 'wow' him by kicking him in the head :P I've worked off about 4kg of body fat with my new routine over the last couple of months and have much stronger lungs to go with it, so this would be a good addition i think. Even if he will just step up a gear and batter me :D

[bphan002]

I will try to answer your question hopefully I've gained enough knowledge about stretching from all the wonderful people here on this forum. The stretch routine you mentioned is good and they can be done twice daily. The last part wth the splits are relax stretching and you only really need to do it once a day.

I would add isometric stretching into your routine 3-4 times a week. This is where you do the splits. Tense your muscles for about 5 seconds. Rest for a second go a little bit further tense up again and repeat till you get to your farthest position and hold for 30 seconds tensing up. Repeat 2-3 reps.

With your question on kicking higher this will definitely make you kick higher. In terms of strength well since your kicking it'll increase it a little bit, but kicking a bag would increase it more and doing squats/lunges.

If you want to hold your leg out more I believe this is static active stretching. In order to do this just practice holding out your leg for say 30 seconds and do a couple reps of that and than try to increase the time as you progress.

Hope this helps.

[Van Zandt]

1. Is this a good stretching routine to do twice a day every day to get all round results (e.g. can kick higher, harder, hold leg out longer etc)?

The dynamic stretches must be done within fifteen or so minutes upon waking, otherwise they're just not effective. If you find after a few weeks you're not making much progress, you might want to add mild relaxed stretches beforehand (so long as you don't push it too hard).

2. Where to fit this in with my warm up - weights/cardio - cool down

Generally speaking, you should try to structure your workouts as such:

Morning
1) Joint rotations
2) Dynamic stretches
3) Relaxed stretches

Evenings
1) Joint rotations
2) General warm-up (jogging or marching on the spot, etc)
3) Dynamic stretches
4) Strength exercises
5) Isometric stretches
6) Relaxed stretches
7) 1 hour later, cardio (running, cycling etc.)
8) Relaxed stretches

The two sets of relaxed stretches in the evening workout (parts # 6 and # 8) are done for different reasons. # 6 augments the gains you make in the isometric stretches; # 8 returns your muscles to their pre-training length after running, and enhances recovery. You must wait an hour between doing # 6 (relaxed stretches) and # 7 (running) because you can't display your maximal contractile strength for up to an hour following relaxed stretches (even mild ones).

I'll post a new thread in this forum on an example workout on increasing kicking height, so stay tuned for that ;)

Keep up with your training mate and I wish you luck.

Yours in health,

Dan

[Matt B]

I really can't train properly in the evenings. Just don't have the energy and/or motivation. I'm very much a morning person! Could i flip that schedule around (so do the morning bit in the evening and vice versa)? I also don't do cardio and weights on the same day so i guess I'd simply omit that depending on the day?

[Van Zandt]

Could i flip that schedule around (so do the morning bit in the evening and vice versa)?

Yes, as long as you do dynamic stretches in whatever workout within 15 minutes of waking up. That's the key to being able to kick high, cold, at any time throughout the day is to do dynamic stretches immediately.

I also don't do cardio and weights on the same day so i guess I'd simply omit that depending on the day?

Yes, that is fine. Just make sure you do isometric stretches whenever you do your other strength exercises, and not cardio.

[Matt B]

Cheers. I will digest that over the weekend and crack on. Im creature of habit (to the obsessive extent!) so changing my routine to do the dynamic stretching soon as i get up is going to be very painful (mentally) indeed. I'll give it a go though!

[Matt B]

oh, do Isometric stretches work just fine if i have done strength work but not anything on my legs (as i dont do full body weights)?

I think the gives me....

Morning (Mon/Wed/Fri only)
A. Get up and do numbers 1-6 is described above in my post
B. Have breakfast, drive to gym at work and....
1) Joint rotations
2) Warm up
3) Strength exercises
4) Isometric stretches
5) Relaxed stretches

Morning (Tues/Thurs/Sat only)
A. Get up and do numbers 1-6 is described above in my post
B. Have breakfast, drive to gym at work and....
1) Joint rotations
2) Warm up
4) Relaxed stretches
5) Cardio work out
6) Relaxed stretches

Evenings
1) Joint rotations
2) Dynamic stretches
3) Relaxed stretches

Guess i will do my core work ummm on the evening i do the cardio?

RE relaxed and isometric stretches are we essentially talking about the same actions (e.g. spread legs on the floor as wide as possible) but with the isometric you then tense the muscles once you reach as far as you can go?

[Van Zandt]

Yes, isometric stretches will work fine if you don't do strength exercises for your legs. However, doing strength exercises for your legs will make them more effective by, a) reducing your body's reaction to them (making you less sore afterwards), and b) increasing your rate of progress.

[Matt B]

Not sure if i confused you at all. I do strength training on my legs, but only once a week.

[Van Zandt]

RE relaxed and isometric stretches are we essentially talking about the same actions (e.g. spread legs on the floor as wide as possible) but with the isometric you then tense the muscles once you reach as far as you can go?

Bingo :D

[Alek]

Generally speaking, you should try to structure your workouts as such:

Morning
1) Joint rotations
2) Dynamic stretches
3) Relaxed stretches

Evenings
1) Joint rotations
2) General warm-up (jogging or marching on the spot, etc)
3) Dynamic stretches
4) Strength exercises
5) Isometric stretches
6) Relaxed stretches
7) 1 hour later, cardio (running, cycling etc.)
8) Relaxed stretches



Can this evening workout be performed every day? I mean strength training everyday?Or is it better to perform speed training everyother day and strength training with isometric stretches the other days?

[Van Zandt]

Ideally you should take a rest day between strength days.

Do isometric stretches on whatever day you train strength for your legs.

Go check out the "Stretching for high kicks" thread as it might explain structuring your workout a bit more clearly.

[Matt B]

Nearly got my full weeks work out finished. I've been doing it in Excel like a geek! Get a few things sorted tonight then it begins with dynamic stretching at 5:30am tomorrow.

[Van Zandt]

Best of luck to you mate! :cool:

[SpikeD]

Hi Dan, Some advice please. I have had pain in my left lower leg for some time now, I am seeing a physio (pah) and have been for a few months. I'll get to that in a mo.

The pain started about 5 months ago and i noticed after a lesson that i had been doing a fair amount of jumping kicks in. The pain was specifically in the shin to the left of my tibia along side the bone and was quite sharp and i had a residual duller pain around the outside of the shin muscle.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_y2mha1-SdME/SokWD7SQAsI/AAAAAAAAA18/GqY6lv1cb0s/s400/shin+pain.jpg
So i was referred to physio who after an examination told me i have tight calf muscles. He thinks that because the calf muscles are tight, as they are being stretched through exercise that they are being 'pulled' from the tendon/bone at the front on my shin where they connect and this is giving me my pain. He recommended anti-inflamatory and stretching http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_y2mha1-SdME/SokXScEMQiI/AAAAAAAAA2E/TijsZZqAv2A/s400/claf+stretch.jpg
(small note, when doing this stretch relaxed, if i bring my chin to chest i get a sharp shooting pain down my calf)
I did as he said for about 7 weeks and it made absolutely no difference. I was ill just after the 7 weeks for a good 10 days and did no stretching and found the pain subsided quite a bit and i only got pain when climbing stairs or dipping the clutch in my car. This seemed counter-intuitive to what he had suggested.
Anyhoo i then read your post about relaxed-stretching and realised that i was not doing a relaxed stretch (Physio never mentioned that at all) and so i started again with relaxed stretching. I have not been able to train for a few weeks because of an op on an abscess and as such have not put a lot of strain on the area and yet it still hurts and pulls the same. I also have some discomfort around the calf muscle now that i didn't really have before.
So, finally, i come to the questions. Why would my leg suddenly start hurting after all these years of kung-fu and jumping kicks, climbing stairs and driving. The short calf muscle problem or whatever has always been there and i suspect it is genetic as my son, sister and niece all walked on their toes for a few years and my son (11) has terrible flexibility, he can barely touch his thighs let alone his toes (and he is a lazy git that won't stretch every day). Also, any ideas as to how i can rectify this pain as it hampers my kung-fu training when i go.
If you can suggest anything that may be of use i will be eternally grateful and promise not to hurt kittens anymore. Thanks for reading this ramble, I hope that somewhere in it there is some sense of english. Regards, Lee.

[Matt B]

Well I've done the evening portion of the workout and I'm going to do my morning stretching in a min (yes i'm doing it backwards!). So thoughts so far...

1. I think i should probably be doing at least 1 leg exercise in every weight session so i can do the isometric stretches. My further thought was my muscles always ache after doing leg weights as i do train them pretty hard. I read (correctly I think) that isometric stretching shouldnt hurt afterwards. How will i know if it is or not?! If that makes sense!

2. The rest really doesnt take long!

3. I could actually hit my hand at (top of) head height on the dynamic stretching (done at 5:30am straight after i got out of bed!)... which surprised me greatly. Now if only i could get to that height on the first swing of the leg eh!

EDIT: Evening (morning lol) shift now done. I've been doing the relaxed stretches against the pics shown in the high kicking thread along with the dynamic stretches in this thread. OUt of interest, what is the progression on the dynamic stretching? Do you stick to the same routine but aim to get the end poiunt higher faster? Presumably this keeps it safe (i.e. without a warm up)? My front is quite good as i can get toe height above my head. Back isnt too bad (leg bends though?) but side is pretty poor tbh. Chest height at best. I do have a weakness (i feel) in my leg side on for this sort of thing so shoudl feel the most gain there i hope!

[Van Zandt]

SpikeD/Lee,

If the physiotherapy hasn't worked then it's usually a sign of misdiagnosis. I certainly don't think tight calves is the cause, as a reduction in flexibility is usually gradual. The fact that it occurred immediately following a lesson (particularly one with jumping jacks - always a bad idea!) leads me to believe it's a trauma injury. Shin splints immediately come to mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_splints

Other causes of your pain may be stress fractures or Compartment Syndrome. My advice would be to go back to your doctor and request a second diagnosis. Be sure to tell him that the course of physiotherapy has had no effect. He should then at least put you in for an MRI scan of the area - if he doesn't, then ask for one. It's probably the only sure-fire way to get to the root of the problem (bear in mind I had to make a fuss five or six times with my GP before he put me in for a scan on my hip, which led to the discovery I needed a new one!).

I fear I shouldn't advise you any more than that (at least before you identify the cause of the problem) in case it aggravates your injury. I would strongly suggest raising the issue with your kung fu instructor, and avoid any high impact activities such as running, jumping and skipping rope. You may want to use a stationary cycle or swimming to build and maintain your fitness while you get sorted out. Be sure to do relaxed stretches that don't hurt, as it's so easy to lay off them and allow your flexibility to worsen.

Good luck to you, post back if you have any other questions. Please keep us posted on your progress :cool:

Matt B,

1. I think i should probably be doing at least 1 leg exercise in every weight session so i can do the isometric stretches. My further thought was my muscles always ache after doing leg weights as i do train them pretty hard. I read (correctly I think) that isometric stretching shouldnt hurt afterwards. How will i know if it is or not?! If that makes sense!

Set one session aside so you are doing only isometric stretches in your workout. If you get no signs of soreness the day or two afterwards, then you're strong enough to do them. Ideally you should do activities such as weight lifting (squats, deadlifts etc) and running to augment your progress and prevent plateauing.

OUt of interest, what is the progression on the dynamic stretching? Do you stick to the same routine but aim to get the end poiunt higher faster? Presumably this keeps it safe (i.e. without a warm up)? My front is quite good as i can get toe height above my head. Back isnt too bad (leg bends though?) but side is pretty poor tbh. Chest height at best. I do have a weakness (i feel) in my leg side on for this sort of thing so shoudl feel the most gain there i hope!

When you're able to reach your head height (or over) in all directions during your dynamic stretches, then you can try knocking off a set or two and try reaching your max height earlier/in fewer sets. Ideally you should still build the speed and range of movement over several sets to maintain safety.

[SpikeD]

Thanks Dan, I was unconvinced with the diagnosis from the start but it's good to have other opinions. I will speak to my physio when i see him in a month but will talk to my doc before then (if i can actually get to see him). I have spoken to my sifu whom has offered to put me in contact with TCM practitioners but i fear i will not be able to afford their services. Oh and it was a jumping kicks not jacks session. Jumping jacks are for navy seals dude, SEALS. LOL.

[Matt B]

Set one session aside so you are doing only isometric stretches in your workout. If you get no signs of soreness the day or two afterwards, then you're strong enough to do them. Ideally you should do activities such as weight lifting (squats, deadlifts etc) and running to augment your progress and prevent plateauing.

Cheers Dan. I'll swap out the relaxed stretches for isometric on a Friday when i do my legs weight session then. Then that's 3 days of running (2 sprint days and 1 a bit more middle distance) and one day of weights with 1 day of isometrics. We'll see on Sat how that feels!

My legs felt weaker (best i can describe it) this morning when i did my cardio. Not anything close to sore, just like they have been used! I can see why doing it every day (twice!) is the way to go though.

[shinobi#x]

thanks for this great info.

[Van Zandt]

thanks for this great info.

More than welcome :cool:

[Alvaro92]

Great guide! But I got two questions.

First, in the guide you mentioned that the isometric stretches are not for children, or for people going trough growth spurt. Since im 16 years old I am still groing ( uhm well I hope so).
I really want to become more flexible, should I tense the isometrics less or just dont do isometrics at all. Or will skipping these ruin the whole flexibility workout?

Second, when attempting a side split, I feel my knees are hurting a little bit. Can I reduce this by doing strength exercises like squats and leg curls?

[Van Zandt]

I really want to become more flexible, should I tense the isometrics less or just dont do isometrics at all. Or will skipping these ruin the whole flexibility workout?

Isometric stretches are very effective for increasing flexibility, but you can increase flexibility without them. At 16 you're technically still growing, so if I was you I would avoid them until you're a year or two older.

Second, when attempting a side split, I feel my knees are hurting a little bit. Can I reduce this by doing strength exercises like squats and leg curls?

Yes :cool:

[Alvaro92]

Thanks for this fast reply.
I'll start my stretching routine tomorrow and skip the isometrics.
I bought a benchpress with leg curles so I'll be fine :cool:

[Van Zandt]

You're welcome, and best of luck :cool:

[zcrowley]

Wow! Such great information. You should write a book. I will try the advice you have posted here, but don't be surprised if I have questions!

Regards,
Zack

[Van Zandt]

Thank you for your kind words -- and all the thanks :cool:

[righty]

Err I was going to write a really complex background to a really simple question. But I'll go with simplicity.

With the rear leg raise, exactly which muscles are being targeted?

Presuming it's the quads, is it OK to modify it a bit to more target these muscles, if I don't think I can feel it well. For example, I may bent the knee to my heel comes towards my butt to targer the quads. Or to bend the supporting leg more if I find myself bending over forward and stretching the hamstrings in the supporting leg before the quads in the raised leg.

[simon s]

I have been able to do the splits since the age of 19. Probably because when I started training at 17 I used to stretch all the time.
Well, years have passed and although I am still fairly flexible, I am nowhere near where I was (can just still do the splits though). I do not have the feeling of fluidity I had as a yougster when I stretched all day everyday.
I was looking to start a stretching programme, not for kicks so much, but for my health and feeling of wellbeing as I get older.
I would like to extend my thanks to Dan for an excellent post, which I have shared with both my Instructor and other Instructors in our school.
Not only will the information help me, but also the way I teach flexibility.

Thanks for an excellent post Dan.

[Van Zandt]

I appreciate your kind words.

[takahura19]

i need help. Now I am for few months doing relaxed streeches but it doesn't help. My legs are ****in strong. I can do side split for my height I am 186cm tall, quite easily now, and sometimes I can do 10 cm more, but I am kind of a stuck. My problem is that I train cycling and taekwondo, I have to train cycling 4-5 times a week, and taekwondo from monday to friday one hour. My daily training is like that. I wake up. Than in 45 min time it depends, sometimes earlier I go jogging for 15 minutes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwtM7ZArGxU Than I do this streeching exercises for 30 min, than I do relaxed slide split. I sometimes go to school or If I go cycling I rest for an hour than go cycling. I come home at 15 from cycle, than I rest for 2hrs and half and Have taekwondo lesson. After taekwondo I do either, horse stance 2 a week and press my muscles or I do like kurz's exercise, when you lie on your back, lift your legs 90 degree than you do side splits, like repetitions up and down. After I come home i rest for 30min or 45min than I do relaxed stretches. What is wrong with my routine as I see no evidential progress and I really have to do splits, and what should I do after cycling training as I have to train cycling lol, I can't abandon this sport. regards

[takahura19]

And also What I noticed is that I am very inflexible after my taekwondo lesson I don't know why?

[liero]

Its probably fatigue...thats a lot of work load!

Even though you don't want to abandon either sport, you need to work out a better training schedule

[Van Zandt]

Now I am for few months doing relaxed streeches but it doesn't help.

Relaxed stretches take time; incorporate isometric tensions and your balls will touch the floor in 8-12 weeks tops. (Assuming you're a dude.)

I have to train cycling 4-5 times a week

This is your biggest problem. Cycling works your muscles through a narrow range of motion and decreases your flexibility. Cut back on your cycling or do more stretching.

What is wrong with my routine

You're doing: 1) too much, 2) the wrong exercises, or 3) doing things in the wrong order. Until you change your routine (you need to drop something other than stretching or you will stay as you are - or get worse - permanently).

[takahura19]

Well I'll tell more about my cycling training schedule, I get it in April, but in Taekwondo coach said I improved but it's still far. I think I should do isometrics but my problem is that after my workout I don't have time, to stay in gym to do them. So I cycle 1.5 mile to my home and should I do them Imediately when I come home? Another thing is that I really would need your help about routine, as my coach is not that expert. He told me do easy in mroning so I just jog and do static streeches like master kang, than cycle than little streech, than 3 hrs rest than taekwodno workout and when I come back home after one hour I do relaxed streeches, and sometimes I do little bit of isometrics but just for few min, not 30 min. Guys I really need your advice, only flexibility is missing otherwise I have very good speed and body for taekwondo :D But if I work too much how than professional athlets can train for 6hrs every day :D

[Van Zandt]

Pro athletes usually break up their routine into bite-size chunks, e.g. 3 x 2-hour workouts with correct nutrition and plenty of rest (they often take "power naps" during the day), in addition to access to a professional sports team (physiotherapists, strength training experts, etc).

That is why they are professionals.

[YouKnowWho]

Has anybody ever tried the door frame stretching method? One leg on one side of the door frame (above your head), use both hands to pull the door frame until your groin area also touch the door frame.

One UT coach invented this stretching method many years ago. Ask your opponent to hold on your legs as tight as he can. You try to open your legs as hard as you can. After you get almose exhausted, your opponent lets go his holding, now you can do a perfect split on the ground with comfort. I think the theory here is if you force an object to bend into one direction, when you release it, that object will bend into the opposite direction.

[takahura19]

I know about professional sport, and I kind of a use their technique. I do morning exercise than nap, than cycling, than rest and taekwondo at last. Should I do every day streeching at least Relaxed, or Can I have day off. Because I do them every day streeches, and really what kind of streeching should I do after cycling and is good to wait for an hour in evening and than do relaxed streeches. regards

[takahura19]

Hi guys. I want to say that since I started doing running (10-15min)+master kang streeches in morning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwtM7ZArGxU), than in evening after workout relaxed streeches I am doing well . Even though I cycle I am getting more and more into side split. Today I reached 2m and I am 1 86cm high and around 30cm are missing to the floor. My problem is that when I do that my hips are not in line but left is like more in front than right. What to do about that, and once I was doing isometrics than I had for few days pain around my right groin, after that I stoped with isometrics. All the best regards

[Patrick Smith]

Van Zandt, I have a question regarding isometric stretches.

Because I am still recovering from Patellofemoral Syndrome, doing isometrics in the standard upright (standing) position is not an option. My knees aren't stable enough yet. However, I have been advised to do them while sitting against the wall (spreading your legs and then pushing yourself against the wall) to reduce pressure on my knees. This removes the pain entirely, but if feels like my muscles are too flexible for my hips (if that makes any sense). Even when I don't feel any tension in my adductors I still can't get into a deeper stretch because my hips hurt. I tried to replicate this situation while supporting myself with a chair in the standing side split position and despite how I twisted and turned I still had the pain. Even if I rotate my pelvis to the greatest extreme I still experience it strongly. Another problem is that my hip joints stayed sore for a day afterwords. Have you ever experienced something like this before?

I know you said:

Get a pain in the top of your hips when you do the side split? Rotate your pelvis more. That pain is you jamming the top head of your femur (thigh bone) into your acetabulum (hip socket). Bye bye cartilage, hello hip replacement! Seriously though, you got to rotate your pelvis if you want to touch your crown jewels (if you have them) to the floor.

I don't want cartilage damage and a hip replacement!

Thanks!

Patrick

[Van Zandt]

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for your question. The problem with PS (also called Runner's Knee) is that it can be caused by just about anything, including muscle tightness, bursitis, overuse, fatigue, skeletomuscular imbalances, and so on. What cause did your physician diagnose?

And as you know, if you're still growing you want to avoid isometrics altogether. You would be better served by doing full ROM strength exercises like adductor flies and pulldowns. But until you tell me what your doc said (about the cause of your condition), I can't really advise you on the isometrics part of your question.

All the best,

Dan

[Patrick Smith]

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for your question. The problem with PS (also called Runner's Knee) is that it can be caused by just about anything, including muscle tightness, bursitis, overuse, fatigue, skeletomuscular imbalances, and so on. What cause did your physician diagnose?

And as you know, if you're still growing you want to avoid isometrics altogether. You would be better served by doing full ROM strength exercises like adductor flies and pulldowns. But until you tell me what your doc said (about the cause of your condition), I can't really advise you on the isometrics part of your question.

All the best,

Dan
I am not yet 18 years old (almost 17), and I have not performed any steady isometrics (besides a *very* light tension once or twice) since I learned I should not perform them.

Before I started therapy (and also before I learned about not doing isometrics), I would get a sharp pain in the medial meniscus area during and after the tensions. After discussing it with you, I stopped doing isometrics entirely, but my knee pain (which was accompanied by popping and clicking) just got worse. I had a sharp pain under the knee cap a few times which was so bad that I had trouble walking for a few days at a time.

After reading Thomas Kurz's article about PS, I went to a orthopedic doctor and he examined my knee, said he found no basic problems, but just in case, arranged for me to have an MRI done. The MRI did not show any major damage or problems either, so the orthopedic doctor set me up with a therapist for a few months. The therapist diagnosed me with PS, and I started doing a few weekly sessions with him. If it helps, the sessions consisted of things like wall squats, short lunges, knee extensions, squats (on an incline machine), short step ups/downs/overs, hamstring curls, and a fun exercise where I balanced on one foot (on various platforms) and threw and caught a 2 lb. medicine ball. Later on, as I progressed I began doing marching with bands (forward, side, back), good mornings and full squats with 20 pounds, squat jumps and hamstring curls on an incline machine.

My therapist told me that the pain on my inner knee was caused by a lack of strength in the stabilizing muscles of the knee and that as I got stronger the pain would dissipate. This seems to be the case so far.

As you say, the best thing for me to do since I cannot do isometrics is to full ROM exercises like adductor flies and pulldowns, and I am incorporating them into my program. I doubt that I will be able to do adductor pulldowns for a while, though, because I think it would put a lot of stress on my knees.

I want to get as flexible as I can, as fast as I can, and I can arrange my daily schedule to match practically anything that it would require. That said, besides doing dynamic stretches in the morning and evening, relaxed stretches in the evening (2x30 seconds per stretch), and working through full the full ROM, is there anything that I can do? Would holding relaxed stretches for half an hour or a full hour have an effect?

And my last question (I hope you don't mind). When doing relaxed stretches for the side split, I often do not feel that my adductors are really being that stretched, although my hips feel as if they've gone as far as they can go. Is that normal? Are my muscles simply a little further ahead of my hips? For that matter, even if my hips do not feel like they are being stressed, sometimes they hurt a little when I'm coming out of the side split stretch.

Thanks for all your help, Van Zandt.

[Van Zandt]

Take your time mate.

Honestly, it sounds like you're doing pretty much everything you can. Holding relaxed stretches for longer than you're doing now won't give you any additional benefit, so you're best off investing that time elsewhere. As much as a pain in the ass that it is, you just need to be patient buddy (which can be difficult when you're so eager to drop to the floor like roadkill).

Sort out your strength issues first. Make sure your knees are solid and worry about your flexibility later. Don't do like one client I'm working with at the moment, who ignored his doctor's advice and rushed into his splits. Like you, he had weak knees. He also ended up dislocating his during a stretch.

The fact that you're not feeling the stretch in your adductors but feeling a "stop" in your hips suggests two potential problems:

1) Your posture. Use a mirror to check you have your ankles, knees and hips in alignment and that you're fully rotating your pelvis. A lot of folk think they've rotated as much as possible but haven't actually done it enough. If you wish, PM me a photograph (side on) of you doing a split stretch at your max so I can assess your posture and alignment.

2) An underlying problem with your hips. Are you able to do the Tom Kurz side split potential test? (Leg up to the side on a chair)

If you need anything else, just post back.

All the best,

Dan

[Alansmurf]

Van Zandt will get you this flexible !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=BNR74UCidBI&feature=player_embedded

Smurf:):)

[Van Zandt]

I would sell my kidney for a night with those sisters :love:

Just noticed this thread has hit 10,000 views. Awesome :)

[Patrick Smith]

Take your time mate.

Honestly, it sounds like you're doing pretty much everything you can. Holding relaxed stretches for longer than you're doing now won't give you any additional benefit, so you're best off investing that time elsewhere. As much as a pain in the ass that it is, you just need to be patient buddy (which can be difficult when you're so eager to drop to the floor like roadkill).

Sort out your strength issues first. Make sure your knees are solid and worry about your flexibility later. Don't do like one client I'm working with at the moment, who ignored his doctor's advice and rushed into his splits. Like you, he had weak knees. He also ended up dislocating his during a stretch.


You're right. :bang: There's no point in rushing into the splits if I end up injured, possibly permanently, and have to wait even longer in the long run. I'll concentrate on getting as strong as I can and slowly improving flexibility with relaxed and dynamic stretches. I do the relaxed stretches that you list in your "Stretching for high kicks" thread every evening.

Another positive of the situation is that I'll be building a lot of static-active flexibility and that will improve my kicking skills too.


The fact that you're not feeling the stretch in your adductors but feeling a "stop" in your hips suggests two potential problems:

1) Your posture. Use a mirror to check you have your ankles, knees and hips in alignment and that you're fully rotating your pelvis. A lot of folk think they've rotated as much as possible but haven't actually done it enough. If you wish, PM me a photograph (side on) of you doing a split stretch at your max so I can assess your posture and alignment.

2) An underlying problem with your hips. Are you able to do the Tom Kurz side split potential test? (Leg up to the side on a chair)

If you need anything else, just post back.

All the best,

Dan

I don't think it's a problem with my hips, since I've gotten down to 1 ft from the side split and 4 inches from the front. I can do the Tom Kurz side split potential test easily.

I mostly get that feeling when I perform the stretch like this:

http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/i11.jpg

But since I'm only doing dynamic and relaxed stretches, my regular side split stretch is either like this:

http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/s37.jpg

Or this:

http://www.chinese-swords-guide.com/images/sitting-groin-stretch2.jpg

Except I keep my back straight and I don't hold onto my feet on the last one.

When doing the first relaxed stretch (for the side split) I have to be careful that I don't let my stretch go too far, because it may not feel uncomfortable at the time but when I get out my hips feel a little sore. Are there any specific guidelines about hip angle doing the sitting (or lying) side split stretch or am I simply stretching too hard?

Thank you very much, Van Zandt.

Patrick

[Van Zandt]

The key to relaxed stretches is to give your muscles enough time to relax. It could be that by timing yourself in the stretch you're causing them to tense up, which is the opposite of what you're trying to achieve.

[Patrick Smith]

I wouldn't be surprised if that was it. I've been concentrating less on time, and more on getting the muscles to relax. It feels better.

[MaxZ]

Hi, I'd like to ask what is considered strength training - as in when to avoid PNF.

Are calisthenics considered strength training? And what if one was to do bodyweight squats, crunches etc. on a daily basis. Is it still safe to do isometrics on the same day?

I'm asking from a 'newbie' point of view :) Thanks in advance.

[Van Zandt]

My rule of thumb is to leave at least 48 hours between strength workouts. This includes free weights, calisthenics (bodyweight exercises) and isometrics. Just because you don't feel sore doesn't mean your body isn't still adapting to the loads imposed upon it in the previous workout. If you do too much too often, you will just hurt yourself. Unless you are a sick puppy and that is your goal :D. Try to do all your strength exercises in a single workout.

[PASmith]

OK Flexi peeps.

I flat out can't do the dynamic stretches in the morning. I have a young daughter that I can't ignore in the morning which means I can't get straight out of bed and do some stretching (not unless I want to do it to the sound of a hungry crying baby). She doesn't wake to a set time so I can't set the alarm 20 minutes earlier to get them in before she wakes up.

Can I increase my flexibility without them?

I manage to train in the evening OK as she is in bed at that time so is there anything I can do then?

As the morning stretches seem to be the bedrock of the flexibilty programme is it the end of flexibilty training if you can't do them?

For context I've always been naturally flexible and can kick to head height when cold easily enough. However I'm finding my effective ROM is getting less as I get older and my natural flexibiity is fading. I've never worked my flexibilty before (never needed to to be honest) but now I'm noticing that my form is suffering on certain kicks as I can't quite get my legs where I know they need to go.
Is there anything I can do to maintain what functional flexibility I already have?

[Van Zandt]

I was saving this for my book, but here it is anyway: dynamic stretches are old news. So are relaxed stretches. One of the recent breakthroughs my associates and I recently made was that all you need is full ROM weight lifting and isometrics. And you only need do them two times per week, three at most, to increase your flexibility in the quickest time.

Your flexibility is decreasing as you age because you probably relied on elasticity of connective tissues. This elasticity relies on a combination of elastin and collagen; as you age, the ratio changes in favour of collagen. There is nothing you can do to reverse this process. Thus if you rely on tissue elasticity for your flexibility, you will eventually become as stiff as a board. This explains why there is a myth that old people can't stay flexible (they can).

The bottom line is: you need splits. Your kicking ROM is determined by your flexibility in splits. Work on your strength drills (especially isometrics!) to decrease resistance in your kicking antagonists (hamstrings and adductors) and slow kicks to increase strength in your kicking agonists (hip flexors, abductors and core). The good news is that once you achieve full splits you can maintain them with just one or two applications per month.

Dynamic flexibility, and dynamic stretching, is a fallacy. It is no more safe or effective than ballistic stretching, which is a big no-no. Don't use methods which rely on tissue extensibility for flexibility, but those which focus on building strength in extended positions.

Hope this helps.

PS. Strength training - and isometrics - is best done in the evening anyhoo. ;)

[PASmith]

Cheers man.
Damn the world of flexibility training changes more often than I change my duvet cover.

So...isometrics are when you take your legs to a stretched point, tense them against resistance for a certain amount of time and then relax while taking them further apart? Then repeat for something like 3 sets?
That right?
How do you do this with the hams?
Where do dynamic stretches fit in now?

I know you are endeavouring to make flexibility easier to understand (and achieve) but I have to say I feel I don't have a clue now. :(
Your book can't come soon enough.

[Van Zandt]

Hence why my book is taking so damn long - there is so much BS and confusion out there that I want to nuke away all the crap. The book will show you how and why there is only one way to properly increase flexibility, quickly and injury free - and keep it until the day you die. I won't reveal too much more at this stage (hey, gotta sell you guys something, right? :)), but other topics include why you never need to warm up and how men actually have greater flexibility potential than women.

To do isometrics, move into the position (eg side split) until you feel tension. Contract the affected muscles for 7-10 seconds, relax and immediately increase further into the position. Hold the new range for a couple of moments before contracting again. Repeat until you can't go any further, then hold one final contraction (for that set) for 30 seconds. Rest a few minutes then repeat for 3-5 sets. Do this at the end of your strength workout.

For the hamstrings, just use the front split. Add the side split and you've got all the positions you will ever need.

Drop dynamic stretching altogether. Do slow kicking at the start of your strength workout and that will build the height of your kicks. Bill Wallace never used dynamic stretches and look how well he can kick. He also didn't achieve FULL side splits until he was 30.

I know this is probably confusing and contradicting as hell. But when my book is done you'll smile when it becomes clear :)

[MaxZ]

My rule of thumb is to leave at least 48 hours between strength workouts. This includes free weights, calisthenics (bodyweight exercises) and isometrics.

I never realized - I thought calisthenics were safe to do frequently without rest days.

So, in order to do PNF, I must have a rest day?

dynamic stretches are old news.

And you can still achieve good results without catching that 15 minute period in the morning?

Thanks :)

[simon s]

I have a question Dan if you can help.

Old school (like me) used to hold a stretch for 5-10 seconds. I am led to believe that there is a receptor in the brain that holds onto the tension in a muscle for the first 8-10 seconds of a stretch, meaning old school is hardly stretching at all. I now hold a stretch for 30 seconds to allow for the time it takes the receptor to let go of the tension.

Thanks.
Simon.

[Van Zandt]

I never realized - I thought calisthenics were safe to do frequently without rest days.

Any form of strength training requires a sufficient period of rest for adaptation (to the training load) to occur. In the case of calisthenics, your bodyweight is the load. If you do the exercises every day, without giving your body enough time to rest, repair and rebuild itself, you're going to stagnate at best and get injured at worst.

So yes, in order to do PNF/isometrics, you need to have a rest day (maybe more) between workouts.

The fifteen minute morning rule applies to dynamic stretching only. This is because the first fifteen minutes after waking is when muscle tonus is easier to reset. But you don't need them (see my previous post for an explanation). You will do just fine with one or two strength workouts per week.

[Van Zandt]

Simon,

There is no average time it takes to wait out the stretch reflex (the goal of relaxed stretches). Recent studies have shown that relaxed stretches are in fact counterproductive to flexibility training because they actually enforce the stretch reflex over a long period of time. Increasing flexibility should always be done in direct relation to building strength. It is the nervous system which prevents you moving into a greater ROM so you have to teach it to accept the new ROM as being safe. Strength training is the best way to do this. Relaxed stretches impair your strength in extreme ranges - kinda the opposite of what you're trying to achieve.

[MaxZ]

The fifteen minute morning rule applies to dynamic stretching only. This is because the first fifteen minutes after waking is when muscle tonus is easier to reset. But you don't need them (see my previous post for an explanation). You will do just fine with one or two strength workouts per week.

Could you still drop "balls to floor" without a warmup, without using dynamic stretching?

[Van Zandt]

Yes. Dynamic stretches were never designed to make you do splits anyway.

[fabrizio]

Hi,

I've been doing thai boxing for about 3 years and my flexibility has improved very very slowly. I can't kick at all cold, feel like my lower back would give way and even when I've warmed up and done some dynamic stretching I still need to go a few rounds on the pads until I feel comfortable with my kicks.
I tried to do dynamic stretching in the morning (cold) but this caused me to pull a muscle in my lower back.. I couldn't walk for about 3 days. Isometric stretching maybe the answer but I'm not sure if I'm strong enough. I do a side split stretch as part of my routine but I can’t keep my body up because it's causes a lot of pain and pressure on my lower back… would you have any clue about what this could be?
The front split is a complete disaster; again pain in my lower back like it’s going to be split apart and also I feel I’m overstretching the ligaments behind my knee.

[Patrick Smith]

Dynamic flexibility, and dynamic stretching, is a fallacy. It is no more safe or effective than ballistic stretching, which is a big no-no. Don't use methods which rely on tissue extensibility for flexibility, but those which focus on building strength in extended positions.

WHAT???

My life... my purpose... gone... all gone... :'(

Realistically, does that mean that we should stop doing dynamic and relaxed stretches and only use isometric and full ROM strength training? Now we really need your book! :)

[Patrick Smith]

Hi,
I've been doing thai boxing for about 3 years and my flexibility has improved very very slowly. I can't kick at all cold, feel like my lower back would give way and even when I've warmed up and done some dynamic stretching I still need to go a few rounds on the pads until I feel comfortable with my kicks.

Don't forget, it's good to be able to kick cold (for self defense reasons or simply because it's cool), but in the long run, YOU SHOULD WARM UP. It's like a last resort (or next to last resort). Warm up properly for any training session.


I tried to do dynamic stretching in the morning (cold) but this caused me to pull a muscle in my lower back.. I couldn't walk for about 3 days. Isometric stretching maybe the answer but I'm not sure if I'm strong enough. I do a side split stretch as part of my routine but I can’t keep my body up because it's causes a lot of pain and pressure on my lower back… would you have any clue about what this could be?
The front split is a complete disaster; again pain in my lower back like it’s going to be split apart and also I feel I’m overstretching the ligaments behind my knee.

It sounds like you have a back problem. A good chiropractor could help you.

[PASmith]

Is there such a thing as a good chiropractor? Aren't they all basically peddling rubbish?

[Late for dinner]

Lots of back problems occur when your hips are tight and you use your back to try to gain the range that isn't in your hips. Its amazing how much easier it is on your back when your hips are loose!

powchoy

(oh yeah.. chartered physio :' )

[Van Zandt]

Fabrizio,

A weak back is a common cause of problems in people who are trying to do splits, particularly in the muscles which stabilise the spine and pelvis. You need to get on a first name basis with deadlifts.

Patrick,

Yes, drop dynamic and relaxed stretches. (I can hear Thomas Kurz shouting for me to be burned at the stake :D). Dynamic stretches have been found to be as useful and safe as ballistic stretches. Most people just do not have the ability to control them as Kurz directs. Microtears were evident after dynamic stretches too. Besides, Kurz contradicts himself when he says high kicks are possible by dynamic stretches alone, but that dynamic flexibility is determined by passive flexibility.

There is also no need to use all the different labels for flexibility. As you have correctly assumed, stick with full range ROM strength exercises and isometrics. It's all you need. In my book I also state why it isn't necessary to warm up. Ever.

[adscottie]

Van Zandt, first I want to say thanks for an immensely useful thread. However I am interested to find out where the information about dynamic stretching being bad etc comes from? (Please note I am not doubting you just with so many changes in views it is difficult to follow). Does the general changes in views of flexibility come from empirical research and if so from any particular sources? And what is the current position on static active stretches? (if some of this is going to be in your book don't worry, I plan that anyhow).

Also are you saying that the dynamic stretches themselves are bad for you or that most people don't have the control to stop them from becoming a ballistic stretch?

Many thanks.

[Van Zandt]

Adscottie,

I appreciate your stance on this as flexibility training has always been a contradictory subject and no doubt people are now thinking, "WTF?"

My statement is based on a number of very recent studies in which athletes were subjected to both ballistic and dynamic stretches for a number of weeks. Following this they underwent magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans, which detected multiple muscle microtears in each athlete. These occurred in all the areas targeted by the two forms of stretching, particularly in the hamstrings. There was little difference in the severity of trauma between those who used ballistic stretching and those who used dynamic stretching. Dynamic stretches are as bad as ballistic stretches. Kurz states that controlling the movement will stop it from becoming a ballistic exercise, but even controlling it as he suggests does not prevent this. The level of control he requires from his readers is very difficult for most anyway.

I will cite the studies in my book when it is published. I'm releasing this information now because a lot of people (no-one from MAP) have asked how my material is different to that which exists already.

In terms of static-active stretching, which is not actually a form of flexibility development but strength training, it is helpful on developing the ability to lift and control the limb during kicking. It features heavily in my book and I demonstrate numerous exercises for developing it.

[adscottie]

Thanks for you reply, it has certainly helped me get things a bit clearer in my head. At least I don't have to feel guilty about missing my morning routine now!

Looking forward to the release of your book.

Adam

[Patrick Smith]

Is there such a thing as a good chiropractor? Aren't they all basically peddling rubbish?

Definitely not. Chiropractors are becoming quite common in the care of athletes, elite and non-elite. For example:


As more athletes discover the benefits of chiropractic care not only for injuries but additionally for increased performance, more athletes and teams are using chiropractic to gain an important edge. A recent study published in the March/April 2002 issue of the Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, (JMPT) examined the usage of chiropractic care by National Football League teams throughout the US.

The Journal article reported on the results of a survey of NFL trainers on their usage and referral to chiropractic care. Participants of the survey were head athletic trainers of the 36 National Football League teams. They were all men, and all had at least 17 years of experience and had served with their present team in their current position for a minimum of 1 year .

The results of the survey showed that 45% percent of the trainers themselves have been treated by a chiropractor. Presently 31% of NFL teams use chiropractors in an official capacity as part of their staffs. However, even though not necessarily on the staff of the NFL team a full 77% of the trainers have referred to a chiropractor for evaluation or treatment. Probably the most telling result of the survey is that 100% of trainers agree that some players use chiropractic care without referral from team medical staff.

Several other questions were also asked in the survey and the answers were as follows:

* Should trainers refer players with suspected spinal subluxations to chiropractors? - Five percent of trainers strongly agree, 48% agree, 24% disagree, and 19% have no opinion.
* Is there a role for the doctor of chiropractic in the NFL? - Eighty-one percent agree that there is a role for the chiropractor in the NFL, 5% strongly agree, 14% have no opinion, and none disagree.
* Is the role of the sport chiropractor different from that of the team physician? - All (100%) of the trainers see these roles as different from each other.

In addition to NFL players, many athletes from many sports depend on chiropractic care. One such athlete is John Stockton, a professional basketball player and future hall of famer with the Utah Jazz. In an April 2, 2002 article that appeared in the Toronto Star, writer Doug Smith asks and answers the question concerning John Stockton's longevity, "What is the secret to John Stockton's continued success on the NBA basketball court at age 40? A Good Chiropractor." When asked to explain his usage of chiropractic John's response was, "I'm not a good enough expert on what that (chiropractic) entails, but it's not just adjustments, it's balancing muscles and overall health." John then added, "it's been great for me, and for my family." The article reports that along with chiropractic, Stockton says that a love for the game and fun with his family are two other secrets to his continued success.

Source: http://www.houstonchiropractic.com/templates20/article/1108.html




In a July 15 PR-Newswire release from Denver is a story of two local chiropractors recently hired as team chiropractors for the two-time NFL champion Denver Broncos. Dr. Dan Hill and Dr. JT Anderson became the official team chiropractors after being appointed by the team trainer Steve Antonopulos. The two doctors had been taking care of several of the players for several years in their private practice. Last year head coach Mike Shanahan integrated chiropractic into the Broncos full-time fitness regime. From the results, it obviously helped, so the decision was made to have the chiropractors with the team again this year. Drs. Hill and Anderson will provide chiropractic to the players at least twice per week during the regular season and off-season.

Source: http://www.houstonchiropractic.com/templates20/article/1212.html



From the May 19, 2006 issue of the Lawrence Journal-World from Lawrence, Kansas comes a story of a chiropractor, Dr. Michael Stuart, who has won the trust of some elite track and field athletes. One in particular is Justin Gatlin, who is the world's fastest man. According to the article, Gatlin, tied the world record in the 100-meter dash less than a month after getting his neck, middle back and lower back adjusted by the chiropractor.

Dr. Stuart started caring for Gatlin, Maurice Greene and other top notch athletes during the Kansas Relays. Director of the event, Tim Weaver is the one who facilitated Dr. Stuarts entrance into the event. Weaver, a former track athlete, had been a patient of Stuart for over a year, stated the importance of chiropractic for these athletes by saying, "These athletes, their body is everything, and getting it to perform at a high level is everything." He went on to stress how chiropractic helps the athletes perform, "They've taken their bodies to extremes and are doing things on the edge of what evolution is meant to do here in 2006. They're constantly looking for things to keep their bodies moving, and this is another way to keep that engine fine-tuned."

It was sprinter Maurice Greene who originally requested that Dr. Stuart come help him at the event. According to the story, it was not long before word started to spread among other professional athletes that a chiropractor was around.

Weaver tells the story, "They liked him so much they brought him back the next day. He's working on once and future world-record holders, and that's of great value to the meet. It gives us the added respect, that the Kansas Relays takes better care of superstars than any other meet in the U.S."

Dr. Michael Stuart, pictured left, with sprinter Justin Gatlin before the Gold Zone II competition at the Kansas Relays.

Source: http://www.houstonchiropractic.com/templates20/article/1143.html


From: http://www.houstonchiropractic.com/index.php?file=/nyk/templates20/shared/articles2.html&cat=69

And as a side note... next year I enter college to study preparatory courses for entering a chiropractic college in a few years! Hah! I definitely support the proper use of chiropractors in sports and regular life. :D

Fabrizio,

A weak back is a common cause of problems in people who are trying to do splits, particularly in the muscles which stabilise the spine and pelvis. You need to get on a first name basis with deadlifts.

Patrick,

Yes, drop dynamic and relaxed stretches. (I can hear Thomas Kurz shouting for me to be burned at the stake :D). Dynamic stretches have been found to be as useful and safe as ballistic stretches. Most people just do not have the ability to control them as Kurz directs. Microtears were evident after dynamic stretches too. Besides, Kurz contradicts himself when he says high kicks are possible by dynamic stretches alone, but that dynamic flexibility is determined by passive flexibility.

There is also no need to use all the different labels for flexibility. As you have correctly assumed, stick with full range ROM strength exercises and isometrics. It's all you need. In my book I also state why it isn't necessary to warm up. Ever.

I thought isometric tensions were a form of strength training, and that you should always warm up for strength training. Is isometric stretching an exception?

Edit/

Do dynamic stretches done cold cause microtears or is it just dynamic stretches in general? Are dynamic stretches still an important part of a kicking sessions warm up?

[Van Zandt]

Patrick,

Yes, isometrics are one form of strength training. But research indicates that warming up is only necessary for those who believe they need it. Your body functions according to how you train. So if you always warm up prior to your main workout, your body comes to expect it. Studies have shown that there is no difference in athletic performance or rate of injury between those who warm up and those who stopped warming up a long time ago. This is nothing new; even Pavel Tsatsouline mentions the same. My book teaches you how to wean yourself off warm ups gradually so you can safely exercise without them.

It is the action of dynamic stretches which causes damage whether you are warmed up or not. In both cases you are forcing the limb past the point when the stretch reflex activates. You should not rely on methods which rely on tissue extensibility for increasing flexibility (which dynamic and ballistic do). Aside from hurting you, dynamics are not necessary for kicking so you can drop them altogether.

[proteinnerd]

Definitely not. Chiropractors are becoming quite common in the care of athletes, elite and non-elite. For example:




Sorry Patrick, I have to disagree with your opinion of chiropractors. The true Chiropractic method rejects the theory that Germs cause disease, identifies vaccinations as poison and discourages their use and at its core has zero scientific validity as a legitimate method of health care. Plus there are some alarming studies appearing now regarding chiropractic manipulation and stroke.

A Canadian study by the Institute of Clinical Evaluative Sciences in Ontario found that patients younger than 45 who had experienced stroke related to posterior circulation are "5 times more likely than controls to have visited a chiropractor within a week of the event" (Stroke 2001;32:1054-60).

Another study states, "The researchers reported that patients under age 60 who had strokes or transient ischemic attacks from tears in the vertebral artery were six times more likely to have had spinal manipulative therapy in the 30 days prior to their stroke than patients who had strokes from other causes."

Scary stuff.

The study you cited wasn't really a study, it was a survey that asked who used it...big difference.

You can find a decent skeptical analysis of chiropractic here.http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php?dir=articles&article=chiropractic.php

Sorry for Hi-Jacking the thread...back to Flexibility

[Patrick Smith]

Patrick,

Yes, isometrics are one form of strength training. But research indicates that warming up is only necessary for those who believe they need it. Your body functions according to how you train. So if you always warm up prior to your main workout, your body comes to expect it. Studies have shown that there is no difference in athletic performance or rate of injury between those who warm up and those who stopped warming up a long time ago. This is nothing new; even Pavel Tsatsouline mentions the same. My book teaches you how to wean yourself off warm ups gradually so you can safely exercise without them.

It is the action of dynamic stretches which causes damage whether you are warmed up or not. In both cases you are forcing the limb past the point when the stretch reflex activates. You should not rely on methods which rely on tissue extensibility for increasing flexibility (which dynamic and ballistic do). Aside from hurting you, dynamics are not necessary for kicking so you can drop them altogether.

Okay, that's going to dramatically change my schedule! :D

For my own knowledge, would good full ROM exercises for the front split and side split would include the following?

Front oriented:

• Lunges (all kinds)
• Split squats
• Good mornings
• Deadlifts
• Squats

Side oriented:

• Adductor flies
• Adductor pull-downs

I'm concerned about this, because I can't do isometric stretches yet (still only 16 years old), so the only option I have is to do full ROM strength training.

Proteinnerd,

I'd like very much to discuss this with you, but I need a little bit of time getting my argument ready (I'm a little slow with research). I'll post back.

[proteinnerd]

Patrick,
But research indicates that warming up is only necessary for those who believe they need it. Your body functions according to how you train. So if you always warm up prior to your main workout, your body comes to expect it. Studies have shown that there is no difference in athletic performance or rate of injury between those who warm up and those who stopped warming up a long time ago. This is nothing new; even Pavel Tsatsouline mentions the same. My book teaches you how to wean yourself off warm ups gradually so you can safely exercise without them.



To clarify, are you saying that research now shows you can go from cold to 100% maximal effort with no transitional/warmup phase??

WOW!

any links for that study?

[Van Zandt]

Patrick,

Yes, those exercises would be appropriate. You can also do slow kicks to increase the strength of your kicking agonists. My research has shown that individuals who are still growing respond well to just full ROM strength exercises and kicking strength exercises. Adductor pulldowns are especially useful, as I know a chap who managed to slide into a split using just those, squats and holding the horse stance. Might work for you too. Heck, you could even try a light isometrics session and see how your body reacts. I said to wait until 18 to give yourself time to finish growing, but I haven't grown any since I was 15. It's up to you: play it safe and wait until you are eighteen, or give them a careful try now. If you decide to try then, let me know how you get on (by PM if you prefer) and we can discuss what to do next.

[Van Zandt]

Proteinnerd,

The bottom line is: yes, you can safely go from resting to all out effort without warming up. I am not disputing that people perform better with a warm up; my point is that they do so because that is the way they have trained and so they have programmed their bodies to respond better with a warm up. By unlearning the habit of warming up, they can achieve the same level of performance without one.

As a sports therapist I have authored a couple of studies myself, which will be cited in my book upon publication. But I am not the first person to state that warming up is unnecessary. In his book Beyond Stretching, Pavel Tsatsouline cites a study by Dr Judd Biasiotto in which he tested the batting speeds of players from the Kansas City Royals. He found that 47 out of 50 players tested produced faster batting speeds without a warm up. In another study, Biasiotto found that elite powerlifters performed better in the bench press and squat without a warm up five times out of six.

[PASmith]

And as a side note... next year I enter college to study preparatory courses for entering a chiropractic college in a few years! Hah! I definitely support the proper use of chiropractors in sports and regular life.

Im with proteinnerd and how he answered that. If you are serious about getting into a form of helpful therapy then I would advise getting into proper sports physiotherapy.
Chiropractors have migrated into mainsteam physical therapy over the years (so some are better than others) but at its core it's a full on pseudo-science crock of...faecal matter.
"Innate inteligence" and all that. It has no scientific basis at all as it was founded before health science properly got underway.
Check out the recent Simon Singh case in the UK for how chiropractors respond to criticism. Not with evidence but with litigation.
Sports people are notorious for being superstitious so it's easy to see how something that is placebo like chiropractic can get wide acceptance.

End of thread hijack. :)

[Patrick Smith]

Patrick,

Yes, those exercises would be appropriate. You can also do slow kicks to increase the strength of your kicking agonists. My research has shown that individuals who are still growing respond well to just full ROM strength exercises and kicking strength exercises. Adductor pulldowns are especially useful, as I know a chap who managed to slide into a split using just those, squats and holding the horse stance. Might work for you too. Heck, you could even try a light isometrics session and see how your body reacts. I said to wait until 18 to give yourself time to finish growing, but I haven't grown any since I was 15. It's up to you: play it safe and wait until you are eighteen, or give them a careful try now. If you decide to try then, let me know how you get on (by PM if you prefer) and we can discuss what to do next.

I haven't grown since I was 15 either (I'll be 17 within 40 days), so I'm not very concerned with that. I'll try them next workout and let you know how it goes. I still have a little of PPS, so instead of using a standing side split that puts a lot of pressure on my knees, I'll probably this stretch:

http://www.aculife.com.au/images/stretches/groin-7.jpg

Not sure what stretch I'll use for the front split, though.

[Patrick Smith]

Proteinnerd,

The bottom line is: yes, you can safely go from resting to all out effort without warming up. I am not disputing that people perform better with a warm up; my point is that they do so because that is the way they have trained and so they have programmed their bodies to respond better with a warm up. By unlearning the habit of warming up, they can achieve the same level of performance without one.

As a sports therapist I have authored a couple of studies myself, which will be cited in my book upon publication. But I am not the first person to state that warming up is unnecessary. In his book Beyond Stretching, Pavel Tsatsouline cites a study by Dr Judd Biasiotto in which he tested the batting speeds of players from the Kansas City Royals. He found that 47 out of 50 players tested produced faster batting speeds without a warm up. In another study, Biasiotto found that elite powerlifters performed better in the bench press and squat without a warm up five times out of six.

How does that work? I thought the warm up was to raise the heart rate and core temperature, and prepare the body for intense activity. Alwyn Cosgrove, Joe DeFranco, Mike Boyle, Eric Cressey, David Tate, Lou Simmons, and a horde of other world class coaches stress the importance of the warm up.

Alwyn Cosgrove (alwyncosgrove.com) uses a system called MAMP: Mobility, Activation, and Movement Preparation. He even uses tools like the foam roller and The Stick to improve the quality of tissue before it is stressed.

I trust you Van Zandt, but maybe these coaches know something we don't.

Patrick

And as a side note... next year I enter college to study preparatory courses for entering a chiropractic college in a few years! Hah! I definitely support the proper use of chiropractors in sports and regular life.

Im with proteinnerd and how he answered that. If you are serious about getting into a form of helpful therapy then I would advise getting into proper sports physiotherapy.
Chiropractors have migrated into mainsteam physical therapy over the years (so some are better than others) but at its core it's a full on pseudo-science crock of...faecal matter.
"Innate inteligence" and all that. It has no scientific basis at all as it was founded before health science properly got underway.
Check out the recent Simon Singh case in the UK for how chiropractors respond to criticism. Not with evidence but with litigation.
Sports people are notorious for being superstitious so it's easy to see how something that is placebo like chiropractic can get wide acceptance.

End of thread hijack. :)

Hi PASmith.

I started a thread for this topic at: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=34144365#post34144365

[Van Zandt]

How does that work? I thought the warm up was to raise the heart rate and core temperature, and prepare the body for intense activity. Alwyn Cosgrove, Joe DeFranco, Mike Boyle, Eric Cressey, David Tate, Lou Simmons, and a horde of other world class coaches stress the importance of the warm up.

The SAID (Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands) principle determines that your body functions according to how you train. A warm up does do those things you say - I'm not disputing that fact. But my point is that people who need a warm up do so only because they have always trained that way, thereby programming themselves mentally and physically to need and expect it. It is possible to unlearn the habit of warming up and train safely & effectively without one. My guess is that the coaches you referenced probably stress the importance of a warm up because that was the way they were taught, and they haven't made the time to look into the possibility of training without one or they're so regimented in their ways that they refuse to accept it is possible. One thing I have found in this industry is that "experts" don't like being proven wrong. :)

[Patrick Smith]

The SAID (Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands) principle determines that your body functions according to how you train. A warm up does do those things you say - I'm not disputing that fact. But my point is that people who need a warm up do so only because they have always trained that way, thereby programming themselves mentally and physically to need and expect it. It is possible to unlearn the habit of warming up and train safely & effectively without one. My guess is that the coaches you referenced probably stress the importance of a warm up because that was the way they were taught, and they haven't made the time to look into the possibility of training without one or they're so regimented in their ways that they refuse to accept it is possible. One thing I have found in this industry is that "experts" don't like being proven wrong. :)

That sounds logical to me. I sure can't wait to read your book. :cool:

[Van Zandt]

No worries Patrick. Promise to get it finished ASAP. :)

[Patrick Smith]

No worries Patrick. Promise to get it finished ASAP. :)

Great! It'll be a public service, and ye shall be richly rewarded! :D

[mskreis]

So, it sounds like dynamic stretching may be unnecessary or am I misinterpreting your earlier statement?

[Van Zandt]

Dynamic stretches are unnecessary and potentially harmful.

[PASmith]

You change your mind more often than my wife.
Dynamic stretches were the mutt's nuts two months ago.

How do ballet dancers get flexible?
I bet they know what's what.

[Van Zandt]

The removal of dynamic and relaxed stretches from the original post in this thread is the only major change. If anything, it's a good change because it means you don't need to put in as much effort to your flexibility training.

Besides, it was a theory I had for a while and took me a while to get the resources together for the research study.

Ballet dancers, like gymnasts, get flexible because their coaches manipulate the length of connective tissues before the growth spurt. This leads to problems later in life (bursitis is common in adult dancers) and the flexibility is lost with age as the elastin-collagen ratio in connective tissues changes more in favour of collagen. So yah, doing what ballet dancers do isn't a hot idea.

[PASmith]

I see.
I think I'll stick to leg kicks. Easier to do and more practical.
Flexibility is a minefield.

[mskreis]

The removal of dynamic and relaxed stretches from the original post in this thread is the only major change. If anything, it's a good change because it means you don't need to put in as much effort to your flexibility training.


So before a good kick workout should I only perform joint rotations? And what about relaxed stretching after the workout?

[Patrick Smith]

Van Zandt, would it be too much of a bother for you to quickly look over a strength training program I'm designing for myself? It's 16 weeks long (4 phases), and I plan on using two unique full body workouts per week for each phase. The workouts will stay the same through each phase/month except for the loads. If you have the time to look over the two alternating workout days for the first phase I'd appreciate it. It's just one page total. I just want to make sure I wasn't making any big mistakes. If you're too busy with your book, don't worry about it, I understand.

Thanks,
Patrick

[liero]

Wait...

No more dynamic stretches.

No leg raises immediatly on waking?

Am i reading this right?

[simon s]

Wait...No more dynamic stretches.
No leg raises immediatly on waking?
Am i reading this right?

I know, we all sat on every word Van Zandt said, only for him to tell us he was wrong.

Over 12,000 readers of this thread.

Thousands of uneccessary pulled muscles, torn tendons, strained ligaments.

I see a massive lawsuit.

Wait........................................was that him I just saw leaving the country?:evil:

[Moosey]

OK, I'm confused. You now recommend not doing relaxed or dynamic stretching. What's left? All you need is to improve your leg strength and, whop, splits ahoy?

[Van Zandt]

I see.
I think I'll stick to leg kicks. Easier to do and more practical.
Flexibility is a minefield.


This sudden u-turn might be confusing at first, but it makes the process of learning to do splits and high kicks easier and less time consuming.

[Van Zandt]

So before a good kick workout should I only perform joint rotations? And what about relaxed stretching after the workout?

Continue with the joint rotations as previously instructed. If you don't yet have the ability to display your maximal flexibility cold (without a warm up) start off with your kicks at waist height and increase their range over several sets. If you are doing your kicks as part of a strength workout, do your compound strength exercises (squats, deadlifts etc) followed by isometrics. You do not need relaxed stretches.

[Van Zandt]

Van Zandt, would it be too much of a bother for you to quickly look over a strength training program I'm designing for myself? It's 16 weeks long (4 phases), and I plan on using two unique full body workouts per week for each phase. The workouts will stay the same through each phase/month except for the loads. If you have the time to look over the two alternating workout days for the first phase I'd appreciate it. It's just one page total. I just want to make sure I wasn't making any big mistakes. If you're too busy with your book, don't worry about it, I understand.

Post away my friend. Send it by PM if you wish or post it on the forum to get others' perspectives.

[Van Zandt]

Wait...

No more dynamic stretches.

No leg raises immediatly on waking?

Am i reading this right?

Yes.

[Van Zandt]

Wait...

No more dynamic stretches.

No leg raises immediatly on waking?

Am i reading this right?

Yes.

[Van Zandt]

I know, we all sat on every word Van Zandt said, only for him to tell us he was wrong.

Over 12,000 readers of this thread.

Thousands of uneccessary pulled muscles, torn tendons, strained ligaments.

I see a massive lawsuit.

Wait........................................was that him I just saw leaving the country?:evil:

Me going to the States for three months at the end of June has nothing to do with an impending lawsuit. Honest :evil:

[Van Zandt]

OK, I'm confused. You now recommend not doing relaxed or dynamic stretching. What's left? All you need is to improve your leg strength and, whop, splits ahoy?

Yes, you should drop dynamic and relaxed stretches. In principle, increasing strength is all you need to do. Specifically:

1. Increase strength in the muscles that stabilise the hips, knees and ankles by doing compound lifts such as squats and deadlifts.

2. Override the stretch reflex through the use of voluntary muscular contractions (isometrics) to bring about further increases in ROM.

3. Increase strength in the muscles which resist during splits and high kicks through isolation exercises such as pulldowns and flies.

[Moosey]

Interesting stuff! Isn't the splits (as in, where you sit on the floor with your legs out sideways, as opposed to standing high kicks etc) fundementally a static passive exercise? So you're saying that to get good at the splits, you shouldn't practice the splits?

(I'm not being facetious, I've just always found theories on flexibility difficult to understand)

[righty]

Hang on, I'm confused now.

Would it be too much to ask to let it be known exactly which parts of the original post should be disregarded or changed?

[Frodocious]

WORLD TURNED UPSIDE DOWN! :bang:

Brain now hurts.

Actually, I'm really glad I don't have to get up earlier to do dynamic stretches!

A couple of questions...

How does this relate to general flexibility, say for grappling?

How does it relate to flexibility issues caused by lifestyle or injuries, e.g. tight hip flexors due to sitting at a computer all day or poor back posture etc. Should passive stretching/mobility drills still be used to improve these, or would weight training (e.g. lunges, face pulls etc) be better?

[simon s]

20248

[Patrick Smith]

Post away my friend. Send it by PM if you wish or post it on the forum to get others' perspectives.

Splendid!

I'm designing it to be part of a complete 16 week progression. These are the two days that will done each week for the first month.

http://www.coldfusiongames.com/June_STP.001.png

Notes:

• The warm up will most likely be slowly reduced after I read your book.

• As you will probably notice, the sets are slightly reversed in the second day from the first day. The first exercises in the workout are the ones that get the most benefit, so I don't want to restrict a certain type of movement to the end (when I'm tired). I'm trying to find a good balance between horizontal push/pull, vertical push/pull, quad dominant exercises (bilateral and unilateral), hip dominant exercises (bilateral and unilateral), and core (stabilization, rotation, etc.).

• The total may look long, but it can be completed within an hour including warm up + cool down. The warm up is around 6 minutes, the main body is around 20-25 minutes, and the flexibility training and regeneration will probably come to around 10-13 minutes combined.

• Next phase (July) will probably be working with more unilateral hip and quad work and within the 12-15 range. The third phase (August) will work within 6-8 rep range, and the fourth phase (October) will be in the 10-12 range. This is Nonlinear periodization, and I've read that it is typically the best for most lower level to intermediate athletes.

I look forward to hearing your response! :)

Edit

The template for my set up was made in a Macintosh Application called Keynote. If anyone wants the template, I'd be happy email him/her the file.

[Van Zandt]

Interesting stuff! Isn't the splits (as in, where you sit on the floor with your legs out sideways, as opposed to standing high kicks etc) fundementally a static passive exercise? So you're saying that to get good at the splits, you shouldn't practice the splits?

(I'm not being facetious, I've just always found theories on flexibility difficult to understand)

Heh :D I understand where you're coming from.

Splits are a static passive exercise if you just sit there and try to wait out the tension. This is called relaxed stretching, which is now seen as bad practice because relaxed stretches have a negative effect on your strength.

Flexibility should only be increased by methods which develop strength. To get good at splits, do isometric tensions in that position (referred to as isometric stretching or PNF).

[Van Zandt]

Hang on, I'm confused now.

Would it be too much to ask to let it be known exactly which parts of the original post should be disregarded or changed?

To summarise:


Do squats, lunges and deadlifts 2-3 days per week, to strengthen the muscles which stablise the hips and knees.
Do isometric front and side splits after your strength exercises. Follow the guidelines in the original post.
If you practice kicks, do these before the strength portion of your workout. Fast kicks (in the air, and on pads and bags) come before slow kicks (which are a strength exercise).
If you insist on warming up, do joint rotations followed by the kicks you will practice in the main part. These kicks should be done at a gradually increasing range and velocity over several sets.

[Van Zandt]

WORLD TURNED UPSIDE DOWN! :bang:

Brain now hurts.

Actually, I'm really glad I don't have to get up earlier to do dynamic stretches!

A couple of questions...

How does this relate to general flexibility, say for grappling?

How does it relate to flexibility issues caused by lifestyle or injuries, e.g. tight hip flexors due to sitting at a computer all day or poor back posture etc. Should passive stretching/mobility drills still be used to improve these, or would weight training (e.g. lunges, face pulls etc) be better?

The principles of flexibility training remain the same for all sports. Grapplers would use isometric tensions in positions specific to their sport, targeting areas such as the hip flexors and abductors more than a kicker would.

Poor posture is due to flexibility imbalances is best corrected by strength training. Most cases of poor posture that I come across are actually due to lack of/improper strength training in the first place.

[Van Zandt]

20248

http://smalldog.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/thumb-owltards.jpg

;) :D

[fabrizio]

This is great stuff Van zandt... can't wait till your book comes out.

I always do relaxed stretching once I have finished my muay thai lesson... do I carry on with this or should I do isometric stretching instead ?

You talk about slow kicks for strength training, how do you do this if your tight , Even when I have warmed up, shadow boxed where I find it difficuly to kick, did dynamic stretching, it can take me a few rounds on the pads for my kicks to become ok.

[Van Zandt]

My advice would be to stop doing relaxed stretches and stick with isometric splits.

Slow kicks are exactly as they sound; whatever kicks you practice in class, do them at half or one-quarter normal speed. Don't worry so much about height for now - focus on technique and the height will come as your splits improve.

[fabrizio]

Thanks again,

If relaxed stretching isn't needed what do you do about stretching your arms, shoulders and back.
Also with isometric stretching; I have done this with the butterfly stretch and that was after I had done about 6 or 7 relaxed stretches before. I tried to do a side split with out any relaxed stretching before and it was very painful and couldn't really do it.
The front split is pretty impossible at the mo, not sure what I can do about that.

Is all this down to not enough strength training?

[Van Zandt]

Thanks again,

If relaxed stretching isn't needed what do you do about stretching your arms, shoulders and back.
Also with isometric stretching; I have done this with the butterfly stretch and that was after I had done about 6 or 7 relaxed stretches before. I tried to do a side split with out any relaxed stretching before and it was very painful and couldn't really do it.
The front split is pretty impossible at the mo, not sure what I can do about that.

Is all this down to not enough strength training?

Use the isometric method in positions which you would traditionally use to "stretch" those parts of your upper body.

Yes, it is a sign of weakness in extended positions. Your muscles tense up because your nervous system does not feel safe in that range.

[Patrick Smith]

Do you see any major problems with my first two days of the month, Van Zandt? I complete the first day yesterday, it was great! I sweated buckets, drank even more, and then collapsed for the rest of the day. The weights that are in that screenshot are actually not the final weights that I used, just so you know. I used more weight, (40lbs for the lunge) and my knees were able to handle it without any problem. ( :banana: ) My adductors are mildly sore, but it's hard to tell whether that is because I lowered the rep range and upped the weight on my adductor flies or because I did isometrics. I'll give it another 2 sessions and see how it goes. Feels great!

[Patrick Smith]

By the way, you say that relaxed stretches aren't necessary and may be harmful. I've read that studies showed that doing relaxed stretching actually increased the strength gain by 30%. I read it in Alwyn Cosgrove's program design book, but I can't quote it online.

Also, if we don't do relaxed stretching, what can we do as part of the cool down after a workout? I do light isometric stretching right after my last strength exercise and then massage and foam roller. Any suggestions?

[Van Zandt]

By the way, you say that relaxed stretches aren't necessary and may be harmful. I've read that studies showed that doing relaxed stretching actually increased the strength gain by 30%. I read it in Alwyn Cosgrove's program design book, but I can't quote it online.

Also, if we don't do relaxed stretching, what can we do as part of the cool down after a workout? I do light isometric stretching right after my last strength exercise and then massage and foam roller. Any suggestions?

On the days you don't do isometrics, you can end your workout with just the massages you currently do.

I also (partly) answer your first query in my latest blog entry.

All the best,

Dan :)

[Patrick Smith]

On the days you don't do isometrics, you can end your workout with just the massages you currently do.

I also (partly) answer your first query in my latest blog entry.

All the best,

Dan :)

Thanks, Dan! Great entry, by the way!

As an update, my training is going very well. My knees have been holding up great, and the isometrics are doing great as well. After the first day my legs were sore (not extremely so, but it was definitely there) and it lasted for 2-3 days. After the second application of isometrics, my legs were barely sore at all!

I'm going to add hamstring pulldowns to my workout too, although I think adductor pulldowns would put too more pressure on my knees then they could handle right now.

Patrick

[proteinnerd]

What sort of resistance loads are we talking about for adductor and hamstring pulldowns? With me as an example, as I weigh 80kg should I be looking to do adductor pulldowns of at least 40kg per leg? What sort of rep range are we talking about as well? I think Kurz recommends the standard sets of about 10-15 per leg. Does that sound about right?

Also with hamstring pulldowns, what sort of range of motion should we be using? Is waist high enough, or should we be allowing the leg to go as high as possible?

Thanks

[Patrick Smith]

What sort of resistance loads are we talking about for adductor and hamstring pulldowns? With me as an example, as I weigh 80kg should I be looking to do adductor pulldowns of at least 40kg per leg? What sort of rep range are we talking about as well? I think Kurz recommends the standard sets of about 10-15 per leg. Does that sound about right?

Also with hamstring pulldowns, what sort of range of motion should we be using? Is waist high enough, or should we be allowing the leg to go as high as possible?

Thanks

I'm going to wait for VZ's answer to your first question. I don't know for sure.

As for the height, I think for both adductor pulldowns and hamstring pulldowns you allow your foot to raise to your waist height but no higher. Thomas Kurz says that any higher will activate other muscles and not isolate the muscles targeted (in this case, hamstrings and adductors).

[zooka]

How to perform hamstring pull downs, adductor flies and adductor pull downs? Because the Internet doesn't seem to know.

[PASmith]

Rope, weight and a pulley I think.

[fabrizio]

can Isometric stretching be included with relaxed stretching?

I was always told that stretching different muscle groups should be done in a particular order.

Isn't doing a isometric side split a risk if you haven't done any other stretches.

Also is there a limit to the number of isometric stretches you can do. So, instead of doing two can you do 5 or is this a risk as well?

[Patrick Smith]

How to perform hamstring pull downs, adductor flies and adductor pull downs? Because the Internet doesn't seem to know.

We need a video tutorial for this, but for now I hope this helps.

Regarding hamstring and adductor pulldowns, this is how you set up to do it:

1. Find 10-15 ft of strong rope/cord/cable.

2. Get a strong little pulley that matches the above.

3. Get some weight plates or dumbbells (maybe two 5lbs, two 10lbs, one 15lb, etc. Enough to mix them around for different weights).

4. Attach the pulley to the ceiling. Make sure that it is VERY WELL ATTACHED! It should be pretty high too, probably around 8-10 feet high (this is important).

5. Put the rope through the pulley and run one end through the weight plates and tie it (use a good tight knot, but one that you can undo in the future*). Leave the other end of the rope free for now.

* Here's a link to a page that shows how to tie some good knots: http://www.animatedknots.com/indexclimbing.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

And this is how you do them and adductor flies:

I couldn't figure out how to explain verbally how to do them so I resorted to making an image! :D

[zooka]

Can adductor pull downs and hamstring pull downs be replaced with lying leg curls and leg extensions? Which are easier to perform, since there will be no need to build an alien mechanism on my sealing. Both of these exercises has the same meaning, which is to isolate hamstrings and adductor, or am I wrong?

[Patrick Smith]

No, I'm afraid that you can't replace them with those exercises. However, you can try using an open door (with a few books crammed under it to steady it) as a pulley. Just loop the rope over the door instead of through the pulley. Of course, there could be substantial damage to your door...paint loss, scratches, etc. Adductor pulldowns CAN be replaced with adductor flies, however. Wear ankle weights to increase resistance!

[Patrick Smith]

Van Zandt, I'm looking at some of the strength programs of some of the top strength and sports coaches (like Joe DeFranco, Alwyn Cosgrove, Mike Boyle, Louie Simmons, Zack Even - Esh, David Tate, etc.), and I'm trying to figure out how their programs can be used for maximal flexibility as well as strength.

What I mean is that some of them work the lower body only once per week and use body part splits instead of full body workouts. After reading Cosgrove's manual, I believe that 2-3 full body workouts are more effective then 2-4 body part splits workouts in general, but Joe Defranco and other people like him use body part splits very successfully.

Flexibility depends on the strength of the muscles involved at their extreme range of motion and overriding the stretch reflex, right? And these workout programs with only one day lower body a week have been very successful at getting people REALLY strong.

The workout that I'm really questioning is one by Joe Defranco.

Here: http://www.defrancostraining.com/ask_joe/archives/ask_joe_03-09-05.htm

What are your thoughts about this style of training?

<hr>

[Patrick Smith]

lol! I was editing my previous post and it cut me off because the editing time limit was exceeded! :D

Anyway,

I have not been getting sore from light isometrics, and my flexibility has increased only very slightly so far (as expected, since I am not using my full body weight). However, my dynamic flexibility has decreased to a certain extent, and it takes a warm up to get me to be able to kick easily. I can kick to the head+ cold, but it doesn't feel safe or easy.

It's possible that doing relaxed stretching after workouts and isometrics would help with my recovery as well. All I do after my workout (besides isometric stretching) is a tennis ball message on my legs. I'm not a good massager, though, and I don't have a foam roller yet. Are you sure that the cons of doing relaxed stretching after a workout (or any time) outweigh the pro's?

Thanks.

[Coges]

No, I'm afraid that you can't replace them with those exercises. However, you can try using an open door (with a few books crammed under it to steady it) as a pulley. Just loop the rope over the door instead of through the pulley. Of course, there could be substantial damage to your door...paint loss, scratches, etc. Adductor pulldowns CAN be replaced with adductor flies, however. Wear ankle weights to increase resistance!

Hey Patrick,

What about substituting with bands? You could potentially loop them around a beam, door, etc and the other end around your ankle. This may save on damage. I know you probably won't get the same resistance that you will with weights but I do know some bands can be quite resistant.

[Patrick Smith]

Hey Patrick,

What about substituting with bands? You could potentially loop them around a beam, door, etc and the other end around your ankle. This may save on damage. I know you probably won't get the same resistance that you will with weights but I do know some bands can be quite resistant.

Hi Coges,

That could work but I don't know how you could gauge your strength with it and it sounds a little hard position. Personally, I think it would be easier to just:

A) get a little pulley and some rope or
B) go outside with a few weights and rope, attach the rope to one of your feet, throw the rope over a thick tree branch (height doesn't matter as long as it is higher then 7-8ft), and tie weights on the other end.

[proteinnerd]

Hey Patrick,

What about substituting with bands? You could potentially loop them around a beam, door, etc and the other end around your ankle. This may save on damage. I know you probably won't get the same resistance that you will with weights but I do know some bands can be quite resistant.


I've tried bands in the past, the big problem with them is the resistance changes depending on how stretched the band is...the further along with ROM of the exercise the more resistance there is. In either of these two exercises they would offer the least resistance where you want it most, it would be better than nothing and there is a youtube video from Elastic Steel for this.

YouTube- SPLITS STRETCHES EXL

I found it a bit awkward but luckily I have easy access to a pulley weight stack so can use that, this would probably be your second best option though.

[Coges]

Guys, any substitute for flyes and pulldowns? I don't use a gym and won't have access to any form of pulleys. I deadlift, squat, lunge, etc so I have most bases covered. Side lunges, GHR, reverse hypers or something like that? I'm actually not that far from the splits but want to maximize my ability in this area.

[Patrick Smith]

Guys, any substitute for flyes and pulldowns? I don't use a gym and won't have access to any form of pulleys. I deadlift, squat, lunge, etc so I have most bases covered. Side lunges, GHR, reverse hypers or something like that? I'm actually not that far from the splits but want to maximize my ability in this area.

Why can't you do adductor flies, Coges?

Either way, the exercises you listed are great exercises, however, it's hard to substitute for adductor flies/pulldowns. If you can't do adductor flies (?) then try holding a horse stance for 2 sets of 3-4 minutes. That will activate and strengthen the adductors. Van Zandt once told me about somebody that he knew who got the splits just by doing squats and horse stances. Try it.

[righty]

Get yourself a thighmaster!

[Coges]

Why can't you do adductor flies, Coges?

Either way, the exercises you listed are great exercises, however, it's hard to substitute for adductor flies/pulldowns. If you can't do adductor flies (?) then try holding a horse stance for 2 sets of 3-4 minutes. That will activate and strengthen the adductors. Van Zandt once told me about somebody that he knew who got the splits just by doing squats and horse stances. Try it.

Sorry. Flies I can do. I was thinking more of pulldowns.

Haha. I'm sure a thighmaster would be a great addition to the arsenal.

[takahura19]

OK VAN ZANDT I NEED UR HELP!!! As u know I am cycling and taekwondo. Before I was doing a lot relaxed streeches now I stoped sometimes I do them if I feel sore after cycling. So really I plan now to go to train taekwondo at Keimyung university in korea in februar so I shld improve a lot flexibility of my hips and I have to train hard so I can resist their workouts like 3-4 hrs a day. As I cycle only hils I started to use lighter gears so I make more rounds per minutes and I figured out I became little bit more flexible. Can you just tell me what to do after my taekwondo and cycling workout(cycling morning or afternon, taekwondo in evening) I usually hold my kicks in air and do relaxed side kick. When shld I incorporate isometrics as I have workouts every single day for 3-4hrs and I dont feel that much fatiuge as last time I work a lot on my stamina on cycle and not on power and strength. When shld I do isometrics after my strength cycling or after taekwondo lesson??? really I need some advice and help as only flexibility is ruinign me to desired goals as I am otherwise physical very fit. Now I climb mountains like 14km uphill (1200m altittude) in 1 hour 10min and also at taekwondo I am one of best just need better kicking technique. reagrds

[Patrick Smith]

OK VAN ZANDT I NEED UR HELP!!! As u know I am cycling and taekwondo. Before I was doing a lot relaxed streeches now I stoped sometimes I do them if I feel sore after cycling. So really I plan now to go to train taekwondo at Keimyung university in korea in februar so I shld improve a lot flexibility of my hips and I have to train hard so I can resist their workouts like 3-4 hrs a day. As I cycle only hils I started to use lighter gears so I make more rounds per minutes and I figured out I became little bit more flexible. Can you just tell me what to do after my taekwondo and cycling workout(cycling morning or afternon, taekwondo in evening) I usually hold my kicks in air and do relaxed side kick. When shld I incorporate isometrics as I have workouts every single day for 3-4hrs and I dont feel that much fatiuge as last time I work a lot on my stamina on cycle and not on power and strength. When shld I do isometrics after my strength cycling or after taekwondo lesson??? really I need some advice and help as only flexibility is ruinign me to desired goals as I am otherwise physical very fit. Now I climb mountains like 14km uphill (1200m altittude) in 1 hour 10min and also at taekwondo I am one of best just need better kicking technique. reagrds

Van Zandt is away in the U.S. right now, and won't be back until August some time I think. In the meantime, maybe I can help you.

It's hard to get a feeling for what you do every day or what your weekly training program looks like from what you've written (a big wall of text...). It would help if you organized it better.

It looks like you're doing a LOT of cycling, and since cycling doesn't strengthen the hamstrings in the full ROM it's going to have a negative effect on your hamstring flexibility. If you do isometric stretches 2-3 times a week (with 1-2 days between) and relaxed stretches directly after your cycling, that should help. Honestly, I think you should decide whether you want to cycle or do Taekwondo, because you're doing a LOT of cycling and no matter how you look at it cycling will take away from your Taekwondo training. You don't have to get rid of all of it, but 3-4 hours a day of cycling is too much for anyone not training to be a cyclist (cycler???) in my opinion.

I'll be able to help you more if you answer these questions.

• Exactly how many hours do you cycle a day and how many days a week?

• Exactly how many hours of Taekwondo training do you do a day and how many days a week?

• What do your Taekwondo sessions include? Please describe in an organized manner.

• What are your goals in Taekwondo?

• What are your goals in cycling?

Patrick

[takahura19]

Thx for your kind reply. I will explain u in organazied way.
Cycling workouts:
winter- no cycle as snow and cold, maybe few times a week easy ride or hiking hils
spring- 4,5 times a week overall less than 10 hours a week
summer- lots of cycling, every day. Now I have a plan of stamina workout that means easy rides in hills lower than 170 bpm hear rate, wit the program of
one day 2h, next 3h, next 4h day off and again like this for 2 weeks, than some intervals next 2 weeks, so that means around 15-25hrs per week of cycling
Goals: hmm. Doing it just for pleasure and as I'm boreda t home, becoming better and better climber on hills and mountains

Taekwondo:
Whole year 5 times a week 1 hour.
Taekwondo session: warm up, some streeching than mits kicking, or technique or sparing, and end also some streching or push ups and so.
Taekwondo goals:Huge confusion. Now I plan to train hard taekwondo as I wanna go to korea on exchange in februar 5 months to train there like 3-4hrs a day of taekwondo. I cant train it here more as we rent a place so I can be just 1 hour in gym. I would like to compete on olympic games but I dont like competitons as u can get seriously hurt and injured, so I realy dont know wheter to compete or not I just like it as sport, of scoring points but not hurting opponents.
WHAT I WANT?
So I would like to combine both sports to get better and better but I give more priority to taekwondo. So with cycling I got great stamina and speed, only what is lacking is flexibility but even bofore I wasnt flexible as I am 186cm tall now I have 71kilos as I lost 4 kilos since winter. all the best Hope u will help me

[Patrick Smith]

Thx for your kind reply. I will explain u in organazied way.
Cycling workouts:
winter- no cycle as snow and cold, maybe few times a week easy ride or hiking hils
spring- 4,5 times a week overall less than 10 hours a week
summer- lots of cycling, every day. Now I have a plan of stamina workout that means easy rides in hills lower than 170 bpm hear rate, wit the program of
one day 2h, next 3h, next 4h day off and again like this for 2 weeks, than some intervals next 2 weeks, so that means around 15-25hrs per week of cycling
Goals: hmm. Doing it just for pleasure and as I'm boreda t home, becoming better and better climber on hills and mountains

Taekwondo:
Whole year 5 times a week 1 hour.
Taekwondo session: warm up, some streeching than mits kicking, or technique or sparing, and end also some streching or push ups and so.
Taekwondo goals:Huge confusion. Now I plan to train hard taekwondo as I wanna go to korea on exchange in februar 5 months to train there like 3-4hrs a day of taekwondo. I cant train it here more as we rent a place so I can be just 1 hour in gym. I would like to compete on olympic games but I dont like competitons as u can get seriously hurt and injured, so I realy dont know wheter to compete or not I just like it as sport, of scoring points but not hurting opponents.
WHAT I WANT?
So I would like to combine both sports to get better and better but I give more priority to taekwondo. So with cycling I got great stamina and speed, only what is lacking is flexibility but even bofore I wasnt flexible as I am 186cm tall now I have 71kilos as I lost 4 kilos since winter. all the best Hope u will help me

You're welcome, my friend. I'm glad to help you, but it is hard to when you have so many misspellings and lack of organization. Still, it's an improvement.

In my opinion you are doing way too much cycling. I am not a cyclist, but I do not see how you could cycle for two hours a day and then do an hour of Taekwondo training that evening every day without some sort of recover issue. If you're already doing five hours of Taekwondo training a week, then I suggest you cut down the cycling to an hour per day max, and increase your Taekwondo specific training.

Your Taekwondo sessions don't seem very intense if you can do 1-2 hours of cycling before without difficulty.

• How intense are your Taekwondo sessions
• How intense are your cycling sessions
• Do you ever feel too tired to go to class
• Do you get tired easily at class
• Do you ever train when you're sore?

The main thing is that if you want go to Korea to do a lot of TKD training you need to do a lot of TKD training now (or at least prepare for it). I'm not saying more, necessarily, since more is not necessarily better. However, if you take away most of your cycling then you will probably get better results from your TKD training. The important thing to remember is that you will not improve if you do not recover from your sessions. You don't get better from training, you get better from recovering from your training.

Patrick

[takahura19]

Well last time I started to do very intesive on my taekwondo workouts and as I said my cycling workouts are now under level of lactact producing tht means below 170 heart rate what is for increasing ur stamina. I am sore many times but usually I take days when I just cycle very easy to recover my muscles and clean my body. I would love to do more taekwondo but really I can't as coach rent place so I can do just one hour a day. I am used to such tempo for almost 2 years now so I dont have that much problems with soreness or maybe I am just so overtrained I dont feel it anymore. I am working cycling with a plan professional cycling coach gave me. I think I shld talk with the pro who is familar with both sports but really I would like to take day off but I cant I am so bored at home and its so hot now I live in small flat hehehe. My workouts are not that intesive as I dont like intesive workouts they are to demanding. enjoy
Sometimes I come my taekwondo lesson I can barely stand I am all tired because of sun, but at the end of workout its better. THat day I dont work intesive on taekwondo

[Patrick Smith]

Well last time I started to do very intesive on my taekwondo workouts and as I said my cycling workouts are now under level of lactact producing tht means below 170 heart rate what is for increasing ur stamina. I am sore many times but usually I take days when I just cycle very easy to recover my muscles and clean my body. I would love to do more taekwondo but really I can't as coach rent place so I can do just one hour a day. I am used to such tempo for almost 2 years now so I dont have that much problems with soreness or maybe I am just so overtrained I dont feel it anymore. I am working cycling with a plan professional cycling coach gave me. I think I shld talk with the pro who is familar with both sports but really I would like to take day off but I cant I am so bored at home and its so hot now I live in small flat hehehe. My workouts are not that intesive as I dont like intesive workouts they are to demanding. enjoy
Sometimes I come my taekwondo lesson I can barely stand I am all tired because of sun, but at the end of workout its better. THat day I dont work intesive on taekwondo

I don't know much about you, so the advice I can give you is limited. However, as I said earlier, I suggest you decide what you want to do. Is it Cycling or is it Taekwondo?

If it's cycling, then research how to train for cycling and if it's Taekwondo, research how to train for Taekwondo, however, whichever you do, focus on that one thing. Cycling and martial arts are very different, and what works for one will not often work for the other.

There are many things you can do at home to practice for martial arts. You don't need to go to the dojo or training area to train. Strength training can be done at home, speed training can be done at home, technique training can be done at home, balance training can be done at home, etc. You can practice and train for Taekwondo from home and alone, easily.

Good luck

[AL0n3']

Hello everybody, i was reading this post and found out its very interesting, but i have few problems and questions to ask, first of all about this:

"Get a pain in the top of your hips when you do the side split? Rotate your pelvis more. That pain is you jamming the top head of your femur (thigh bone) into your acetabulum (hip socket). Bye bye cartilage, hello hip replacement! Seriously though, you got to rotate your pelvis if you want to touch your crown jewels (if you have them) to the floor."

what do you mean by rotating pelvis, i get this kind of pain and it hurts like hell and limits my kicks and side splits tremendously, so a little help with that.

And next about horse stance [kiba dachi] 3-4 min's thats a bit hard for starters, but i guess i'll get there in time.

And for the adductor fly's, when i do them mostly i feel my abs working, is that normal or mybe i do them wrong??

For isometric that hurt like hell at starters im on the same page :D

[Patrick Smith]

Hello everybody, i was reading this post and found out its very interesting, but i have few problems and questions to ask, first of all about this:

"Get a pain in the top of your hips when you do the side split? Rotate your pelvis more. That pain is you jamming the top head of your femur (thigh bone) into your acetabulum (hip socket). Bye bye cartilage, hello hip replacement! Seriously though, you got to rotate your pelvis if you want to touch your crown jewels (if you have them) to the floor."

what do you mean by rotating pelvis, i get this kind of pain and it hurts like hell and limits my kicks and side splits tremendously, so a little help with that.

Hi, ALOn3.

Van Zandt explains this on his blog.

"The problem is caused by a lack of pelvic rotation, which is a common trait in people who start flexibility training or martial arts training in adulthood. The sticking sensation is certain ligaments resisting against abduction (spreading of the thighs) and the pain is the top head of the femur (thigh bone) jamming into the acetabulum (hip socket). Rotating the pelvis permits proper alignment of the hips so that the ligaments can relax (thus ceasing the resisting against abduction) and prevents the top head of the femur jamming into the acetabulum.

To rotate your pelvis properly, try tilting it forward (hip flexion). Point your groin to the floor and lift up your coccyx (tailbone) toward the ceiling. It might help to imagine that a rope is attached to the ceiling and it has been hooked into your coccyx, pulling your butt upwards (a bit like the action that occurs when your big brother or sister gave you a wedgie as a kid). You will know when you do it right because you will immediately go lower in the side split and the outside of your hips will not hurt when you throw high side kicks."
Source: http://danvanzandt.blogspot.com/2010/05/hip-pain-in-splits-and-high-side-kicks.html


And next about horse stance [kiba dachi] 3-4 min's thats a bit hard for starters, but i guess i'll get there in time.


Try starting with 1-2 sets of 45 seconds to 1 minute and work up from there. Horse stances are great (in fact, Van Zandt told me he knew someone who got the splits by just doing horse stances and isometrics). :cool:


And for the adductor fly's, when i do them mostly i feel my abs working, is that normal or mybe i do them wrong??

That depends your answers to these questions.

• Are your feet directly above your hip sockets?

• How many reps do you do at a time/set?

• How many sets do you do?

• Do you wear ankle weights?

• Are you doing them quickly or slowly?


For isometric that hurt like hell at starters im on the same page :D

What kind of pain do you get when you do isometrics? The "pain" from isometrics should feel like muscular fatigue and not joint pain. If your hips are hurting then stop isometrics temporary until you get the right form. Also, are you sore after isometrics?

[AL0n3']

Could you post a video, because im not sure if i get it, but i'll try my best. As for horse stance i guess i don't have any other option other than start from beggining :D

I use 1kg weights on my ankles, and i try to get my feet as straight above hips as possible and i belive that puts the pressure on my abs, don't know

Well when i do isometrics, i try to maximize the split that hurts and when i tens-up it hurts like muscle pain, i had a bit pain in the hips mostly because of that "lack of pelvis rotation pain", but there was no sorness

Thanks for replys man :)

[Patrick Smith]

Could you post a video, because im not sure if i get it, but i'll try my best. As for horse stance i guess i don't have any other option other than start from beggining :D

As long as you're doing them the way they are shown in this image you're doing them right. Remember, do them slowly (around 3 seconds per rep).

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=20319&stc=1&d=1277144092

I use 1kg weights on my ankles, and i try to get my feet as straight above hips as possible and i belive that puts the pressure on my abs, don't know

That's good. Your abs are probably activated because they're stabilizing your trunk, hips, and legs. My abs activate during my flies too.

Well when i do isometrics, i try to maximize the split that hurts and when i tens-up it hurts like muscle pain, i had a bit pain in the hips mostly because of that "lack of pelvis rotation pain", but there was no sorness

How old are you, AL0n3? You should be *very* cautious about doing isometrics if you're younger then 18.

As far as I know, your muscles should not hurt during isometric stretching (or any kind of stretching). I think that Van Zandt meant by saying they hurt is that they are not comfortable/they don't feel good. They should probably just tense up and maybe cramp a little, but not hurt in a bad way. Your hips should not hurt at all. If your muscles only feel uncomfortable during the stretch then it's probably okay. There is very likely a problem if they hurt though the stretch and then afterwords as well.

I'll research that and let you know what I learn.

Thanks for replys man :)

No problem, my friend. High kicks and the splits are goals that a lot of people have, me included. Not too long ago, I had no idea how to reach those goals but thanks to Van Zandt and his articles and posts here I am well on my way--despite being only 16. I enjoy sharing what I've learned. :cool:

[AL0n3']

Im 20 :) so i guess im old enough :) i read this whole thread and saw how you try to help people, ur a good guy. As for Van Zandt he's a god!! :D
I was always dreaming about splits and high kicks too, now i am determinated to go for them and do my best! with your help ofcourse!! :D

Now i must do something about my hip pain and rotating pelvis, thats what was bothering me for almost 2 years now. I knew i can stretch my legs further apart but that hip pain blocked my legs :/ so i guess with theese exercises ill put the pain away!?? :o and i'll be finnaly able to kick some head!! :D

[Patrick Smith]

Im 20 :) so i guess im old enough :) i read this whole thread and saw how you try to help people, ur a good guy. As for Van Zandt he's a god!! :D
I was always dreaming about splits and high kicks too, now i am determinated to go for them and do my best! with your help ofcourse!! :D

Now i must do something about my hip pain and rotating pelvis, thats what was bothering me for almost 2 years now. I knew i can stretch my legs further apart but that hip pain blocked my legs :/ so i guess with theese exercises ill put the pain away!?? :o and i'll be finnaly able to kick some head!! :D

About rotating your pelvis (during stretching and kicks), use this image as a reference for the side split:
This!
http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/i11.jpg

Not This...
http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/i10.jpg

Or This
http://www.trickstutorials.com/images/i12.jpg

;)

[takahura19]

Can some give me tips how to do strength exercises. I would like to strenghten muscles which we need for flexibility. regards

[Patrick Smith]

Can some give me tips how to do strength exercises. I would like to strenghten muscles which we need for flexibility. regards

The information is easily available to you, Takahura, all you need to do is read the thread and Van Zandts articles at his website (HERE: http://danvanzandt.blogspot.com/2010_05_01_archive.html) You should also read the "Stretching for High Kicks" thread.

[Caleb Demarais]

An excellent thread. I have a keen interest in flexibility training (I have all of Kurz and Tsatsouline's books), particularly with how it relates to kicking. Thank you for this information Van Zandt.

[proteinnerd]

While most of the info here relates to increasing your ROM and doing the splits, i have a question regarding general stretching as part of a cooldown or to reduce DOMS the next day.

I went snowboarding yesterday and when I got home was a bit stiff and was about to do some relaxed stretches to hopefully reduce any soreness the next day, then I remembered that relaxed stretches are now the devil. I wasn't about to launch into a 30 minute isometric session especially considering I had done them the last 2 days as part of my flexibility training.

Do they still have a place as a general cooldown which is not part of specific flexibility training designed to increase your ROM or are they to be avoided completely?

What's the latest consensus?

[TaeAno]

thanks, this is really helpful!

[Van Zandt]

While most of the info here relates to increasing your ROM and doing the splits, i have a question regarding general stretching as part of a cooldown or to reduce DOMS the next day.

I went snowboarding yesterday and when I got home was a bit stiff and was about to do some relaxed stretches to hopefully reduce any soreness the next day, then I remembered that relaxed stretches are now the devil. I wasn't about to launch into a 30 minute isometric session especially considering I had done them the last 2 days as part of my flexibility training.

Do they still have a place as a general cooldown which is not part of specific flexibility training designed to increase your ROM or are they to be avoided completely?

What's the latest consensus?

First thing to remember that no amount of relaxed stretching will reduce post exercise soreness. PES (also called DOMS) is due to training too hard, too often, or too soon (unaccustomed exercise, particularly eccentric contractions), or a combination of all three.

I say relaxed stretches are a bad idea because the first hand evidence I've seen is that they are potentially harmful and may impair your progress ( compared to just using isometrics alone). Flexibility is best developed by building strength in the full range of movement.

My advice to you, however, is to try a three phase approach. Phase one consists of doing only relaxed stretches. Phase two consists of doing isometric stretches and relaxed stretches. Phase three consists of doing only isometric stretches. Each phase should last several weeks (but the same length of time for each phase), and you should record your progress during each phase. Then compare the results at the end. Whichever gives you the greatest gains is the method which works best for you.

At the end of your workout, a massage or foam roller will facilitate recovery better than any type of stretching.

[Caleb Demarais]

Van Zandt, I normally hold my isometric stretches for 15-20 seconds. Is this long enough? Thank you.

[Van Zandt]

For overcoming the myotatic reflex (that tensing you feel when your muscles are saying "uh-uh" to the new ROM), I'd say tensions lasting 7-10 seconds will do. For building long-term strength (so your muscles instead say "aaah" - in the nice way!), tensions lasting 30 seconds are sufficient. Funnily enough, there is a limit to how long you should tense during isometrics and longer than 30 seconds just seems to tire the muscles out without actually building strength. Weird, eh? :)

[Caleb Demarais]

But you say if a person hits a plateu in their stretching they should tense harder and longer. how do they do this if they can only tense for max 30secs?

[Patrick Smith]

For overcoming the myotatic reflex (that tensing you feel when your muscles are saying "uh-uh" to the new ROM), I'd say tensions lasting 7-10 seconds will do. For building long-term strength (so your muscles instead say "aaah" - in the nice way!), tensions lasting 30 seconds are sufficient. Funnily enough, there is a limit to how long you should tense during isometrics and longer than 30 seconds just seems to tire the muscles out without actually building strength. Weird, eh? :)

I wouldn't be surprised if that had something to do with the TUT (Time Under Tension) concept. Basically, instead of counting reps you figure out how long each set lasts (in TUT) to see how many actual seconds your muscles are being stressed.

Someone actually designed a chart that showed the rough ranges of TUT. If I remember correctly, they should be somewhere along these lines: 1-20 sec. (pure strength), 21-39 sec. (strength-hypertrophy I think), 40+ sec. (strength-endurance).

In fact, it would explain why lifting heavy weights are so effective for strength gain. Lifting a 2-3 rep max is pretty close to an isometric tension, and I suppose the heavier the weight the closer it gets.

[Van Zandt]

But you say if a person hits a plateu in their stretching they should tense harder and longer. how do they do this if they can only tense for max 30secs?

Like Patrick said, the key is total time under tension. Pavel Tsatsouline touches on this in his book, Relax into Stretch. If you've hit a plateau, simply do more 30-second tensions in your sets. Example: as many 10-second tensions as it takes to reach your limit for that set, then do a 30-second tension as per previous instructions, relax for several seconds (but remain in the position) and then do another 30-second tension (without increasing the stretch).

Patrick, any idea where I might be able to view a copy of that chart? Great info by the way. :)

[Caleb Demarais]

Ok thanks i think I understand more now. Excellent thread, please keep posting.

[Patrick Smith]

Like Patrick said, the key is total time under tension. Pavel Tsatsouline touches on this in his book, Relax into Stretch. If you've hit a plateau, simply do more 30-second tensions in your sets. Example: as many 10-second tensions as it takes to reach your limit for that set, then do a 30-second tension as per previous instructions, relax for several seconds (but remain in the position) and then do another 30-second tension (without increasing the stretch).

Patrick, any idea where I might be able to view a copy of that chart? Great info by the way. :)

Thanks. :)

I'm still trying to find a chart from a more familiar and reliable source of info (like T-Nation or BB.com), but here is one that looks good: LINK (http://www.webefit.com/articles/article_72_timeundertension.html)

Also, here's an article on T-Nation that discuss partial reps (which would decrease the ROM and the intensity of T.U.T. to some degree): LINK (http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/midrange_partials_for_the_best_pump_of_your_life)

[Van Zandt]

No problem. Any further questions, feel free to post away.

<shameless plug> Also check out my blog. ;) </shameless plug>

[proteinnerd]

My advice to Caleb is don't rely on isometrics alone to build enough strength in your adductors and Hamstrings. I did that back in the early 90's and didn't get very far. Now I'm focusing on building strength using adductor pulldowns and Stiff leg deadlifts and leg curls in conjunction with isometrics and am getting much better results. 30 second tensions should be enough if you are doing other resistance exercises as well imo

[Van Zandt]

Thanks. :)

I'm still trying to find a chart from a more familiar and reliable source of info (like T-Nation or BB.com), but here is one that looks good: LINK (http://www.webefit.com/articles/article_72_timeundertension.html)

Also, here's an article on T-Nation that discuss partial reps (which would decrease the ROM and the intensity of T.U.T. to some degree): LINK (http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/midrange_partials_for_the_best_pump_of_your_life)

Thanks for the links, Patrick. There's still a lot of research to be done on creating effective variations to isometric contractions, like developing equivalents of partial and negative reps like you get in standard weight lifting.

[Caleb Demarais]

Ok Van Zandt I read your blog. You said that if people want to keep doing relaxed stretches it is up to them. I want to keep doing them because I feel more comfrtable with them in my routine. How should I do them? Thanks.

[Van Zandt]

If you want to do them, stick to the instructions in the original post of this thread.

[takahura19]

Ok guys me again. Hahah. I finished with cycling season this year, last week on mountain time trial finished 10th place of 40 ppl. As I go probably in februar to korea, now I will just train for taekwondo. My cycling coach gave me workouts for stamina and agility, which consists mix of cycling and running. So I will have them like 3-5 times a week in morning. During week day, I will have from 16 30 with 30 min break to 19 taekwondo, and some days in morning athletics. Weekend one day normal training one day just recovery ride or sth like tht. So I have to fit in my schedule workout for flexibility. I started to listen van Zandt advise so if I do streching I just do isometrics, thats like 2-3 times a week. Prolbem is when I do axe kick I sometimes feel pain in my hip, like it became more flexible, but its never so strong I cant perform kick just once happened to me. Any advise what could tht be, and really I have to put flexibility and most important thing how to prevent injuries. Now my friend, has to take surgery as bone bruised hip.....
Van Zandt why I train so much. Well I think I should if I wanna practice on one of the best taekwondo universities in korea heheh :D

[Van Zandt]

Do you feel pain in the hip of your kicking leg, or your supporting (standing) leg? Where in the hip do you feel the pain? Can you describe the pain in more detail (dull or sharp, constant or occasional, etc)?

[takahura19]

Its like occasional, its in groin, between my leg and balls if u know where I mean. I feel in my kicking leg always only with axe kick, or front dollyo chagi. Its like something is pumping like bone cracking. hehe

[Dizzyj]

A quick question regarding leaving 48 hours between strength workouts:

Does high intensity work on a rowing machine count? I often find after a short sharp interval session my muscles ache, most notably in my left (weaker) arm. Should I be leaving a day between doing this and doing my isometric stretches?

Many thanks.

[cavallin]

I get that pain at the top of my hips, and keep telling everyone i'll need a hip replacement by the time im 30.
what do you mean by rotating your hips more? i'd really rather avoid the hip replacement if possible...

[cavallin]

Pleeease somebody help me with my hips, they are really bad :( i want to be good and not start a new thread.

[Van Zandt]

Will reply to all unanswered posts later tonight. :)

[Van Zandt]

Its like occasional, its in groin, between my leg and balls if u know where I mean. I feel in my kicking leg always only with axe kick, or front dollyo chagi. Its like something is pumping like bone cracking. hehe

Hmm... not 100% sure what you mean. The muscle group you indicated is (at a guess) the adductors, but these aren't the primary movers in an axe kick. Is it always the same spot which hurts when you do axe kick and front dollyo chagi*? Is it one leg or both? Is there ever an audible sound?

* For the non TKD readers, dollyo chagi is a roundhouse kick (maewashi geri in Karate).

[takahura19]

Ok last week I didnt have any problems only thing I noticed is tht my left leg is now more strecheble, but still my dollyo with left hand is much weaker and suck more than with the right, i dont know why. But my rigt leg in side splet is less streched then my left one, its so funny. I dont know what to do and please van zandt tell me, how to include flexibilty workouts in my taekwondo schedule now next week I have just 3-4 intersive workouts cycle or runnin, and from mon to friday 2hrs of taekwondo. Cyclin coach told me I have to cut cycling a lot and another issue it's possible if I will improve enough I can go to represent my country on world championship as I will be tht time in korea, so no costs for my federation. And I noticed after intesive sparring workouts I can streech the most, but sometimes after pads kicking I can't streech at all I am so fixed, tough hehe. regards
P.S Otherwise yeah its just on my left leg this pain but really this week no problems,and I really dont know the cause.

[Van Zandt]

A quick question regarding leaving 48 hours between strength workouts:

Does high intensity work on a rowing machine count? I often find after a short sharp interval session my muscles ache, most notably in my left (weaker) arm. Should I be leaving a day between doing this and doing my isometric stretches?

Many thanks.

The rule of thumb re: isometrics is to wait however long it takes to recover from your previous workout (until you're no longer sore).

A good way to test if you are ready for your next workout, assume one of your usual stretches and tense the target muscles lightly (about 30% max effort). If you feel pain or any other "tingle" which isn't usually there after two weeks of complete rest, then you need to wait a bit longer.

If you are sore from a previous isometrics session and you proceed with a high intensity rowing session, you will impair your recovery. You shouldn't exercise a muscle in any way (training for skill, speed, strength etc) until the soreness (if any) has gone. If you're not sore, I'd say to still leave a full day between applications to ensure you're getting optimal recovery. If you need to train lots of different attributes in your sport, you should be implementing periodisation strategies into your training schedule, or at the very least, splitting your workouts during the day (i.e. skill in the morning, strength in the evening).

Do you do isometrics for your shoulders? Generally, these aren't required as the natural mobility of the shoulder joint means that normal strength exercises performed through the full ROM are enough to maintain optimal flexibility standards for most sports.

[Van Zandt]

I get that pain at the top of my hips, and keep telling everyone i'll need a hip replacement by the time im 30.
what do you mean by rotating your hips more? i'd really rather avoid the hip replacement if possible...

Do you get the pain only when you kick? Is it one or both sides?

There are usually 5 reasons people get pain when kicking:

1) Improper technique.
2) Insufficiently rotating the pelvis (often caused by #1).
3) Lack of flexibility.
4) Lack of strength.
5) Fatigue, injury or an undiagnosed disorder.

You've obviously been training in TKD a very long time so I highly doubt it is number 1.

Not rotating the pelvis enough during kicks, particularly in movements when the kicking leg lifts to the side (yop chagi, goro chagi etc), essentially causes your thigh bone to ramrod into your hip socket. The resulting pain is often felt on the upper-outside side of the joint. It's a common problem in people who start training after puberty. Rotating your pelvis creates space for your thigh bone to move without hindrance. To rotate your pelvis, imagine a cable has been hooked to your tailbone and is attached to a pulley on the ceiling. As the cable lifts your tailbone, your pelvis rotates. It should feel like your hips are rolling in their sockets. If you're wearing your dobok and belt, the knot of your belt should start to descend down between your legs (albeit just a couple of inches). A good way to train this is to stand with your back to a wall, your tailbone resting against your hands and your hands touching the wall (hands on top of each other). Like you're in the relaxed stance when lined up in class and listening to your instructor. Try to move your hands up the wall by moving only your tailbone. Does this help?

If you try to kick at speed beyond your comfortable ROM you may experience pain in various places, likewise if your leg muscles are not strong enough to support the limb when extended. It will help if you do your full speed kicks within your static flexibility range (i.e. how far you can stretch in the splits) and practice slow kicks often.

Only a doctor can diagnose your condition if it is an injury. If the above advice does not help, and the problem persists, consult your GP. He or she may refer you to a radiologist for scans. If you have a previous condition which is flaring up again, speak to MAP's own Powchoy. He is a chartered physiotherapist and far more knowledgeable about injury rehabilitation than I.

On a final note... as a 26 year old who has already had a hip replaced (and is getting the other one done soon), I can tell you it ain't all that bad. And if the pain isn't there when you're walking, you won't need one.

[cavallin]

Just want to say thanks before I reply. I'm off to get some pictures to explain fully what I mean. It's difficult to explain stuff in writing so I don't understand all of it, but I'm sure we can remedy that.
But thanks so much for taking the time out to write!

[takahura19]

Van zandt can u explain I understand like we stay in line in sql so u r up to wall, but than u move in side split or what. I dont understand what u mean by moving tailbone and hands up the wall. regards. Otherwise I was doing tht day. I had one workout and in between I waas doing holding kicks in air, and than on the another workouts with dollyo chagi and nerjo chagi I felt pain. I think tht was because of sore muscle. all the best enjoy

[cavallin]

Do you get the pain only when you kick?

No, i generally get it worst after i have been stretching. I have only recently been getting it when i kick, mostly when i haven't stretched though.

Is it one or both sides?

It hurts on both sides as indicated by the arrows on this pic (both arrows both sides). it hurst mostly on the outside though. the front only hurts sometimes.

http://www.photobox.co.uk/my/photo?album_id=497456542&photo_id=500560214#500560603

There are usually 5 reasons people get pain when kicking:

1) Improper technique.
2) Insufficiently rotating the pelvis (often caused by #1).
3) Lack of flexibility.
4) Lack of strength.
5) Fatigue, injury or an undiagnosed disorder.

You've obviously been training in TKD a very long time so I highly doubt it is number 1.

Not rotating the pelvis enough during kicks, particularly in movements when the kicking leg lifts to the side (yop chagi, goro chagi etc), essentially causes your thigh bone to ramrod into your hip socket. The resulting pain is often felt on the upper-outside side of the joint. It's a common problem in people who start training after puberty.

This makes a lot of sense, i started training at 15 so it would correlate with that too.

Rotating your pelvis creates space for your thigh bone to move without hindrance. To rotate your pelvis, imagine a cable has been hooked to your tailbone and is attached to a pulley on the ceiling. As the cable lifts your tailbone, your pelvis rotates. It should feel like your hips are rolling in their sockets. If you're wearing your dobok and belt, the knot of your belt should start to descend down between your legs (albeit just a couple of inches).

I always tell beginners to do that "twist their bum round, point the bum at the target more" is this what you mean? trouble is, the pain i think is a result of stretching and i am not sure how to rotate my pelvis more. when i do these stretches, it really hurts my hips, especially if we're asked to hold the stretch, i just slide down and don't have the strength to hold it. could this be the problem?

http://www.photobox.co.uk/my/photo?album_id=497456542&photo_id=500560214#500560469
http://www.photobox.co.uk/my/photo?album_id=497456542&photo_id=500560214#500560337

A good way to train this is to stand with your back to a wall, your tailbone resting against your hands and your hands touching the wall (hands on top of each other). Like you're in the relaxed stance when lined up in class and listening to your instructor. Try to move your hands up the wall by moving only your tailbone. Does this help?

I understand this, i happen to have a really curved back, so i actually find this pretty easy. trouble is, my back is so curved it sometimes causes me pain too!

If you try to kick at speed beyond your comfortable ROM? you may experience pain in various places, likewise if your leg muscles are not strong enough to support the limb when extended. It will help if you do your full speed kicks within your static flexibility range (i.e. how far you can stretch in the splits) and practice slow kicks often.

it's likely then that my legs aren't very strong? they're pretty strong, but maybe not the right kind? dunno...

Only a doctor can diagnose your condition if it is an injury. If the above advice does not help, and the problem persists, consult your GP. He or she may refer you to a radiologist for scans. If you have a previous condition which is flaring up again, speak to MAP's own Powchoy. He is a chartered physiotherapist and far more knowledgeable about injury rehabilitation than I.

don't think i've got an injury, it's come on gradually more than anything else. there is this stretch also, which i've never been able to do, for the fear that whenever someone pushes on my knees, even myself, it feels like my hips are gonna do a massive pop and rip out their sockets, it's horrible. i have to lie down and pop my hips by lowering my leg to relieve the pain, but even that doesnt really work

http://www.photobox.co.uk/my/photo?album_id=497456542&photo_id=500560214#500560214

On a final note... as a 26 year old who has already had a hip replaced (and is getting the other one done soon), I can tell you it ain't all that bad. And if the pain isn't there when you're walking, you won't need one.

on that note, i did get really bad pain when i was waiting at the airport. every time i stood up to go from one place to the other, my hips were so stiff and sore i was walking without bending my knees and waddling about. bit awkward explaining why on here Lol, but let's just say i hadn't seen my bf for a few months and went to visit for a few days...i'm sure all that doesn't help.

[Van Zandt]

No, i generally get it worst after i have been stretching. I have only recently been getting it when i kick, mostly when i haven't stretched though.

What is your "cold" kicking flexibility like?

It hurts on both sides as indicated by the arrows on this pic (both arrows both sides). it hurst mostly on the outside though. the front only hurts sometimes.

Couldn't see any arrows on that pic? :confused: (Nice trophies though :) )

I always tell beginners to do that "twist their bum round, point the bum at the target more" is this what you mean? trouble is, the pain i think is a result of stretching and i am not sure how to rotate my pelvis more. when i do these stretches, it really hurts my hips, especially if we're asked to hold the stretch, i just slide down and don't have the strength to hold it. could this be the problem?

The symptom you're describing certainly sounds like you're not getting enough rotation in your pelvis. Can't see so much from those pics... can I ask, was that the deepest you could go in a side split? If so, it's certainly indicative of some kind of obstruction, whether you're rotating your pelvis or not. Tell you what - when I get time over the next few days I'll post an instructional video on how to fully rotate the pelvis.

[Caleb Demarais]

i hope your hips get better soon cavalin

[cavallin]

What is your "cold" kicking flexibility like?

I tried it just now and i could kick a little bit heigher than my head height with no pain doing a turning kick and side kick. but it's the 45 degree kick, i could get that head height no problem, but now it's really hard. and technically, if i rotate my foot more (therefore i guess my hips) i can do a turning kick fine. so now i know i just wasn't rotating my foot enough with that one... :rolleyes:

Couldn't see any arrows on that pic? :confused: (Nice trophies though :) )

hmm strange, well it's the front of my hips and the side of them, at the same level. yeah, that bit of space is like the only room i have in my pokey flat so i do apologise if it seemed like a blatant showy background, i nearly explained that first thing lol.

The symptom you're describing certainly sounds like you're not getting enough rotation in your pelvis. Can't see so much from those pics... can I ask, was that the deepest you could go in a side split? If so, it's certainly indicative of some kind of obstruction, whether you're rotating your pelvis or not. Tell you what - when I get time over the next few days I'll post an instructional video on how to fully rotate the pelvis.

that was cold so i could prob have pushed it another couple inches but certainly nothing more. warmed up i can do another couple inches, but the best results i get it when we do this horrible stretch where we're against the wall and someone pushes your legs, then you lift your bum up, they push your legs out, and then you sit back down and it's like OOOww, but i got quite far that way.

i was thinking of seeing a chiropractor to see if he can do anything or if i need popping back into place, as i really want to deal with this before it gets any worse. what do you think? is a chiro the right route though?

PS: the one with the arrows is photo number 4, just realised the link just takes you to the album rather than the actual photo refering to the text...

[Van Zandt]

My guess is you're kicking beyond your static flexibility range; that is, the angle between your thighs (relevant to each other) is greater during kicking than it is when you attempt the splits. A simple remedy would be to bring your kicks back into your static flexibility range and increase the height as you increase the depth of your splits. A simple way to compare the two ranges is to take a photo of you doing a split and one of you doing a high kick, then look at the angle between your thighs in both pictures.

I'm not all that experienced with chiropractors or their field of study. Someone who is, however, is Patrick Smith (that's his username on MAP). Maybe drop him a PM for some advice? I prefer the traditional route of GP > Referral to radiologist > X-ray, ultrasound or MRI scan > Physio, or in a worst case scenario, surgery.

Nice pigtails by the way. :)

[cavallin]

My guess is you're kicking beyond your static flexibility range; that is, the angle between your thighs (relevant to each other) is greater during kicking than it is when you attempt the splits. A simple remedy would be to bring your kicks back into your static flexibility range and increase the height as you increase the depth of your splits. A simple way to compare the two ranges is to take a photo of you doing a split and one of you doing a high kick, then look at the angle between your thighs in both pictures.

I'm not all that experienced with chiropractors or their field of study. Someone who is, however, is Patrick Smith (that's his username on MAP). Maybe drop him a PM for some advice? I prefer the traditional route of GP > Referral to radiologist > X-ray, ultrasound or MRI scan > Physio, or in a worst case scenario, surgery.

Nice pigtails by the way. :)

Makes a lot of sense really. So if i start to try and improve my splits but keep my kicks low, won't it still hurt when i stretch?
cheers about the hair lol, best way to stop it getting horribly knotty when i train...
thanks again for the advice, i'll take it on board and give pat a PM!

[Van Zandt]

Makes a lot of sense really. So if i start to try and improve my splits but keep my kicks low, won't it still hurt when i stretch?
cheers about the hair lol, best way to stop it getting horribly knotty when i train...
thanks again for the advice, i'll take it on board and give pat a PM!

I have a feeling the pain you're feeling is associated with rotation of the pelvis (or lack thereof), because it seems to be only in stretches which push your leg to the side. Tell me, do you get the same pain in hamstring stretches like the ones below?:

http://www.health.com/health/static/hw/media/medical/hw/h5551179.jpg

http://www.weightlossforall.com/images/alternate%20hamstring%20stretch.JPG

http://www.concept2.com/us/images/training/hamstring_bench.jpg

Regarding the stretch you do sat against a wall and your partner pushes your legs open (never do this type of stretch.....), do you lean your upper body forward (towards your partner) or back (away from your partner)?

[Dizzyj]

The rule of thumb re: isometrics is to wait however long it takes to recover from your previous workout (until you're no longer sore).

A good way to test if you are ready for your next workout, assume one of your usual stretches and tense the target muscles lightly (about 30% max effort). If you feel pain or any other "tingle" which isn't usually there after two weeks of complete rest, then you need to wait a bit longer.

If you are sore from a previous isometrics session and you proceed with a high intensity rowing session, you will impair your recovery. You shouldn't exercise a muscle in any way (training for skill, speed, strength etc) until the soreness (if any) has gone. If you're not sore, I'd say to still leave a full day between applications to ensure you're getting optimal recovery. If you need to train lots of different attributes in your sport, you should be implementing periodisation strategies into your training schedule, or at the very least, splitting your workouts during the day (i.e. skill in the morning, strength in the evening).

Do you do isometrics for your shoulders? Generally, these aren't required as the natural mobility of the shoulder joint means that normal strength exercises performed through the full ROM are enough to maintain optimal flexibility standards for most sports.

Thanks a lot for the information. No, I am just doing isometrics for my legs splits-wise (my arm flexibility is fantastic, and my inward leg flexibility is enough to stick both legs behind my head :p ); but I thought that the strain on my arms was indicative that the training might be overall strength-based, and that my legs might suffer if I didn't leave a day even though they specifically weren't hurting.

Oh, and thanks for the Isometric splits workout you posted on your blog/in this forum, I'm going to be giving that a go when I can work up the courage! :hat:

[cavallin]

I have a feeling the pain you're feeling is associated with rotation of the pelvis (or lack thereof), because it seems to be only in stretches which push your leg to the side. Tell me, do you get the same pain in hamstring stretches like the ones below?:

http://www.health.com/health/static/hw/media/medical/hw/h5551179.jpg

This one does a little on the front of my hip

http://www.weightlossforall.com/images/alternate%20hamstring%20stretch.JPG

http://www.concept2.com/us/images/training/hamstring_bench.jpg

these two don't really hurt my hips

Regarding the stretch you do sat against a wall and your partner pushes your legs open (never do this type of stretch.....), do you lean your upper body forward (towards your partner) or back (away from your partner)?

there is a point in the stretch were we are asked to lean forwards. why never? i am sure there is a fair amount of stuff we do that is pretty bad...

PS: Patrick did recommend the chiropractor, although just realised the guy i was talking about that i know is an osteopath, not sure of the difference. either way he's fixed a lot of my family and friends

[Patrick Smith]

PS: Patrick did recommend the chiropractor, although just realised the guy i was talking about that i know is an osteopath, not sure of the difference. either way he's fixed a lot of my family and friends

With a few words of caution. :)

[Van Zandt]

there is a point in the stretch were we are asked to lean forwards. why never? i am sure there is a fair amount of stuff we do that is pretty bad...

PS: Patrick did recommend the chiropractor, although just realised the guy i was talking about that i know is an osteopath, not sure of the difference. either way he's fixed a lot of my family and friends

That stretch would typically be classed as a "relaxed" stretch. I'm no longer a fan of relaxed stretches these days anyway, but if you choose to do them, you need to assume positions which help you to completely relax (hence the name :)). Having a partner forcefully push your legs open is contrary to the aim of the method you're using. The added downside to using a partner is that he or she may push beyond your safe limits before you can tell them to stop. Result: Painful injury. Stretches such as the one you describe reinforce the myotatic reflex.

[cavallin]

i generally don't have any issues with people overstretching me. we're all used to partner stretches so we're all really careful with each other and give plenty of warning to the other person - although i certainly cannot say the same about the juniors who quite frankly should all be crippled and injured by now.

[Van Zandt]

The only issue might be that overstretching you doesn't give you full splits without a warm up. ;)

[cavallin]

interesting...

[mkultra]

Would these work for a 6'4 bulky endomorph?

[Van Zandt]

Can you increase your strength through weight training? If so, then yes it will work.

[tyciol]

I am wondering, I have seen RVD do jumping jacks in his workout videos (including front/back not just in/out laterally) and he's got excellent flexibility, so I'm wondering if it's more of a contraindication for the unconditioned but once people get to that crazy level of fitness they can handle the stresses? He does lateral running on the treadmill, I wonder if that helps?

I don't really care about doing them, but it feels annoying to avoid them out of fear when they're so common in a lot of classes, I wonder if doing things like adductor flies, horse stance, heavy squatting would make the legs prepared for the impacts.

[Seventh]

I started to do the dynamic stretches. there is 2 things I want to clear up. The first is I do throw a little force to get my leg up, though I am not throwing in full power like I'm trying to kick something. Is that okay?

2nd is that my legs do get a little tired but more breathing is normal for the most part. Should I be concerned.

Also, since I'm a teenager, I'm not doing the isometric stretches. Will dynamic and relaxed stretches do for the time being?

Thanks in advance.

[Patrick Smith]

I started to do the dynamic stretches. there is 2 things I want to clear up. The first is I do throw a little force to get my leg up, though I am not throwing in full power like I'm trying to kick something. Is that okay?

2nd is that my legs do get a little tired but more breathing is normal for the most part. Should I be concerned.

Also, since I'm a teenager, I'm not doing the isometric stretches. Will dynamic and relaxed stretches do for the time being?

Thanks in advance.

Hey, Seventh. Sorry for not replying sooner. I hope this helps you.

1. That's perfectly fine. It's hard to explain exactly how to do dynamic stretches more than what you've already read in this thread. My best advice to you is pay attention to how your muscles feel, and start using a foam roller all over your legs and glutes daily. A foam roller is a tool for soft tissue myofascial release. It helps break up scar tissue and restore proper muscular function. In other words, it's vital that you use it if you are serious about training.

2. I think the slight fatigue after or during dynamic stretches is normal, but probably the best course of action right now is for you to stop when you start getting tired. This basic endurance will increase very quickly. You don't necessarily have to do dynamic stretches twice a day or the second you wake up to benefit from them, either. Depending on when you usually train in the day (morning, afternoon, evening, etc.), it may be unnecessary to do them as a separate session. For example, if you plan to train in the evening of a particular day, you could wake up, do your foam rolling/soft tissue work and then some light relaxed or dynamic stretching (I find that either type helps). Later that day when you do your training session, you could simply include some light dynamic stretches in your warm up.

The whole "waking up early and immediately doing dynamic stretches" thing is not necessary for developing the full splits, over-splits, cold splits, whatever. Assuming Dan is right that isometrics are all that are required to achieve full, cold splits,* than waking up early to trick the nervous system into a deeper stretch is a waste of time.

* I believe Dan is right that people can very successfully achieve full splits, cold or otherwise, with his method of iso's only; however, I do not believe that it is the optimal way and I believe relaxed stretches and dynamic stretches (as well as other types of stretching) play an important role in developing a healthy and injury free athlete. :)

3. Relaxed and dynamic stretches are great, but you are incorrect in thinking that they are your only tools for increasing your flexibility a general kicking ability. There are other things you can do to greatly increase your flexibility (similar to isometrics) as well as wildly improving your kicking abilities.

You know what isometrics are, right? An isometric contraction is when you tense your muscles as hard as you can without any result. For example, if you were to put a hook into a 5000lb block of steel and then, while holding onto the hook, try to pull the 5000lb block of steel across the street it would be an isometric contraction. Why? Because you can't move the block. Your body is trying as hard as it can, but it is not making any progress. Now, when properly applied, isometrics greatly increase muscular strength, and because they make muscles so strong, your nervous system feels very safe about letting your muscles stretch out. Therefore, not only does your nervous system feel safe about it, it really and truly is safe.

As you can probably guess, that kind of maximal effort and dying will contraction is pretty hard on your body IF you're not prepared. This is why you, being a teenager, should not start isometrics until you are quite strong and out of your growth spurt.

Okay, on to what your other tools are.

Number 1 is strength training. You can do adductor flies, adductor pulldowns, and horse stance holds to greatly increase your full ROM strength. Try doing the horse stance holds for 5 minutes total (taking short 3-10 second breaks where necessary, but being sure to complete the full 5 min.). As for the adductor flies and pulldowns, I suggest you follow this type of routine as you're just getting into it.

Week 1-3
Adductor flies - 3 sets of 30-50 reps (repetitions) with or without ankle weights (if you wear ankle weights, be sure they do not prevent you from completing the prescribed reps).

Week 4-6
Adductor flies - 3 sets of 15-20 reps w/ enough ankle weight to prevent you from doing more than 2-4 reps over the prescribed number.

Week 7-9
Adductor pulldowns - 3 sets of 8 reps w/ as much as weight as you need to prevent you from being able to do more than 1-2 reps over the prescribed number.

At this point, you may want to bring the weight up just a little and switch to a sets/reps system of 4 sets of 6 reps each per workout. Adductor flies can work with higher weights, but it is harder to manage without iron boots. I recommend adductor pulldowns because of their ease.

As for the kicking strength, one thing that has helped my tremendously is doing slow, slow kicks. These kicks are done freestanding so they don't just "isolate" the leg lifting muscles but actually the whole blinking kicking process. Your feet, ankles, calves, and muscles everywhere have to work together to balance yourself and hold the various positions. You may want to do roundhouse kick, side kick, and front kick each workout with a set/rep system of 3-5 sets of 1 minute each (per side). Try lifting the kick up for a count of 3, holding for a count of 3-5, and then lowering it for a count of 3. Concentrate on form and balance. Doing this with your other lower body strength work 3 times a week will explode your kicking abilities.

The whole thing would look something like this, and you can and should replace or add kicks that you particularly like to use. Keep in mind, however, that these three kicks cover basically ALL the other kicks possible, and thus form a very solid basic program.

Rest 30-40 seconds between 1's and 2's. For example, rest between A1 and A2, and cycle through them until you've completed the set count required.

A1 Roundhouse kick (right leg) - 3-5 sets of 1 minute each
A2 Roundhouse kick (left leg) - 3-5 sets of 1 minute each

B1 Front kick (right leg) - 3-5 sets of 1 minute each
B2 Front kick (left leg) - 3-5 sets of 1 minute each

B1 Side kick (right leg) - 3-5 sets of 1 minute each
B2 Side kick (left leg) - 3-5 sets of 1 minute each

When you turn 18 or so, I assure you, you will be so strong that you'll get the splits from isometrics in less than a month. Plus, you'll probably get really close just by doing this kind of strength training and stretching.

Hopefully this post will clarify a number of questions beginners have when they first start their flexibility education. :)


Patrick

[Patrick Smith]

I am wondering, I have seen RVD do jumping jacks in his workout videos (including front/back not just in/out laterally) and he's got excellent flexibility, so I'm wondering if it's more of a contraindication for the unconditioned but once people get to that crazy level of fitness they can handle the stresses? He does lateral running on the treadmill, I wonder if that helps?

I don't really care about doing them, but it feels annoying to avoid them out of fear when they're so common in a lot of classes, I wonder if doing things like adductor flies, horse stance, heavy squatting would make the legs prepared for the impacts.

The forwards and backwards jumping jacks that you are talking about are sometimes called seal jumps. I put jumping jacks and seal jumps into my warm up every once in a while, and I find them both enjoyable and effective -- as long as I keep my knees bent and my legs and arms loose. I usually think of jumping jacks as being rigid and hurting my back, but that's no longer a problem if you stay loose.

You're right, though. There's no point in avoiding them. Although this argument rarely stands up to criticism, in this situation, I think that if you don't feel any negative effects from them, just don't worry about them. I kind of like them... :D

[Seventh]

Thanks a lot Patrick. I really appreciate it. One thing, I lack any equipment (except for a treadmill) and I am going to be dead broke for a while (spending money on both birthday and Christmas gifts). Any suggestions?

[Patrick Smith]

Thanks a lot Patrick. I really appreciate it. One thing, I lack any equipment (except for a treadmill) and I am going to be dead broke for a while (spending money on both birthday and Christmas gifts). Any suggestions?

Sure.

First of all, you don't need much equipment to do adductor flies or adductor pulldowns. For adductor flies, you can fill socks with rocks, wrap them around your feet and voila, you have "ankle weights." :D

For adductor pulldowns, if you can fill a few 1-3 gallon juice/water containers with water then you can tie a rope to it, throw the rope over a tree branch or door, then you can make a loop on the other end to put your foot in. Voila, you have a relatively well working adductor pulldown set up.

For just weights in general (for things like deadlifting, squatting, etc.), just see if you can find a bunch of containers and fill them with water or concrete. Something like this:

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_132/11744232818MO92Y.jpg

Personally, the more I get into things like basic acrobatics and parkour, the more I find myself loving a primarily bodyweight approach to training (except for certain LB lifts). If you don't want to make/buy a bunch of weights, check out Coach Christopher Sommer's website and forum: http://www.gymnasticbodies.com/ and http://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum.

Coach Sommer is a national gymnastics coach and is a brilliant man. If you doubt his training abilities, I suggest you here about some of the things his athletes can do!

Patrick

[Seventh]

Thanks so much for the advice Patrick!

[Patrick Smith]

Thanks so much for the advice Patrick!

You're welcome, my friend. It's a pleasure to help.

[The Wiseman]

TOTALLY STOKED AND READY TO GO

[The Wiseman]

and whats wrong with jumping jacks?

[slobajudge]

I dont know, that assumption comes from Thomas Kurz, so belive in him or not. I found no problem with that exercises, and never annoy me, so if someone have some scientific approach about why its bad, bring it on.

[Van Zandt]

Jumping jacks are contraindicated as a warm up because there is no technique in any sport that is similar to or can be improved by doing these outdated exercises. This activity causes a neurological disorganisation in an athlete by causing a regression to an out of sync, homolateral pattern of locomotion resulting in a vague feeling of confusion. Additionally, jumping jacks raise the level of blood lactate before the main workout and are not a preliminary exercise for any lifting technique. If you want to know more of the science behind this "assumption" or why your warm up exercises should be sport-specific, you should read "The Science of Sports Training" [Kurz T., 2001, Stadion Publishing] and "Your Body Doesn't Lie" [Diamond J., 1983, Warner Books].

Bear in mind that no exercise is universally good or bad. All exercises can be bad for somebody at some time. I don't do jumping jacks because they're not specific to the needs of my workouts. The general rule of thumb is that pain, feeling of joint instability, or abnormal sensations during or after exercise are signs that either you are doing it wrong or you are doing it too much. If you feel good during and after the exercise then it's probably not going to hurt you. Just pay attention to the signs your body is telling you.

[slobajudge]

Jumping jacks are contraindicated as a warm up because there is no technique in any sport that is similar to or can be improved by doing these outdated exercises.

Agree, we can all live without it, but thats not mean that exercise should be avoided at all cost, but ok, I will read the book about scientific approach (Thomas Kurz) and then I say my opinion about it because I want to know on what kind research is based on. For me, I dont need that exercise at all, nor I love it nor I hate it.
Thank you for your answer and sorry if my english is not ok.:)

[Patrick Smith]

Agree, we can all live without it, but thats not mean that exercise should be avoided at all cost, but ok, I will read the book about scientific approach (Thomas Kurz) and then I say my opinion about it because I want to know on what kind research is based on. For me, I dont need that exercise at all, nor I love it nor I hate it.
Thank you for your answer and sorry if my english is not ok.:)

The Science of Sports Training is a fine book, but very dense. Do not expect to read through it in just a few days!

I use jumping jacks, seal hops (or whatever they're called), and jog in place for a few minutes before I start my primary and workout. I always feel better doing these. At the same time, I concentrate on keeping my knees bent, minimizing landing impact, and staying relaxed. I blend them in and out of shadow boxing as well.

[gasolino]

You know what isometrics are, right? An isometric contraction is when you tense your muscles as hard as you can without any result. For example, if you were to put a hook into a 5000lb block of steel and then, while holding onto the hook, try to pull the 5000lb block of steel across the street it would be an isometric contraction. Why? Because you can't move the block. Your body is trying as hard as it can, but it is not making any progress. Now, when properly applied, isometrics greatly increase muscular strength, and because they make muscles so strong, your nervous system feels very safe about letting your muscles stretch out. Therefore, not only does your nervous system feel safe about it, it really and truly is safe.


Patrick

Hi guys, I must have missed something here but when you tense up do you try and pull your legs further open or just tense them up without trying to increase the stretch ?

[Patrick Smith]

Hi guys, I must have missed something here but when you tense up do you try and pull your legs further open or just tense them up without trying to increase the stretch ?

Just think of it as pinching the floor. Just to squeeze your legs together as if you could slide out of the stretch were you on a slippery surface.

[Lau]

I've been reading this article with great interest,but am left with a few questions.

I'm now 4 months into Wushu and my flexibility seems to have progressed very little. I train approx 4 times per week and always stretch for approx 10 minutes before every class. No splits or anything like it, just your regular stretch n hold for 30 seconds.

I want to start doing additional training at home to improve my flexibility, high and smooth kicks is what I'm interested in (for now, work towards splits after), but I'm a bit overwhelmed by all the technical terms in the original article.

In a simple list, what should I do and do I need a warmup (limited possibilities @ home)?

Thanks!

Lawrence.

[Patrick Smith]

Hi, Lawrence! What you should do has already been written out for you in the first post; however, a more functional (and simpler) article by Dan is the high kicks thread. It's probably somewhere below this one in the thread list.

A warm up is necessary. Look up Ido's Squat Clinic, it's a good one.

[ArthurKing]

Me again folks. Last time i was here i was having super pain in hamstrings on one leg when stretched for forward splits. I rested several days, went back to previous level in Dan's programme, did one set then next time i tried, too much pain! My hamstring tightens up at first go and if i try to push out to reasonable stretch ouch! Side stretches are ok, as are left leg front, so what should i do? If i just do side for the moment and continue with strengthening exercises (squats etc- on same day or rest day) will that help?
Any ideas welcome.
Many thanks to Patrick and Dan for all their help so far.

[Patrick Smith]

Me again folks. Last time i was here i was having super pain in hamstrings on one leg when stretched for forward splits. I rested several days, went back to previous level in Dan's programme, did one set then next time i tried, too much pain! My hamstring tightens up at first go and if i try to push out to reasonable stretch ouch! Side stretches are ok, as are left leg front, so what should i do? If i just do side for the moment and continue with strengthening exercises (squats etc- on same day or rest day) will that help?
Any ideas welcome.
Many thanks to Patrick and Dan for all their help so far.

By "My hamstring tightens up at first go and if i try to push out to reasonable stretch ouch!" do you mean that your hamstring cramps up? If so, there are vitamins you can take to help that.

A few questions that pop into my mind at first:

1) Exactly where is the pain located?
2) Are you 100% sure it's muscle pain?
3) Does it stop hurting the instant you stop tensing up or is it a steady pain?
4) Did you warm up thoroughly before starting your stretches?

It's more than likely that you could benefit from some serious, daily soft tissue work. A foam roller, lacrosse ball, tennis ball, or even baseball would probably do you a world of good. I suggest you take a look a the website in my signature (Mobility WOD). The owner of that website is a doctor of physical therapy and really, really knows his stuff about rehab and prehab.

[ArthurKing]

Thanks patrick, yes, i'm pretty sure it's muscle pain, my 'semitendinosus' i think. The pain starts as soon as i start stretching out my right leg in front, i can feel the length of the muscle start to tighten and get rigid. It's not spasmodic, like a cramp, it's just hot, tight and painful. It's usually still 'achey' when i've finished all the stretches i can manage, and for a couple of hours afterwards. Next day it's usually ok, but comes back as soon as i try to stretch again. I've rested it now for 3/4 days but i am going to try again tonight- with warming up!
I'll let you know how it goes.
Ill check out that website too.
Thanks again.
p.s. should i be doing my squats/lunges/slow kicks on same day/same session as my isometrics, or on rest days or what?

[Van Zandt]

p.s. should i be doing my squats/lunges/slow kicks on same day/same session as my isometrics, or on rest days or what?

The same day. Those exercises develop strength, as do isometrics. Do your isometrics at the end. A rest day should be exactly that.

[The Wiseman]

Hi! I have started from level one isosplits and I did level 6 most resently. I wondered am I supposed to get all the way up after a set? Or am supposed to still have my legs spread but take pressure off? Or is relaxing the stretch simply to stop the tension and just sit there for a little. How long should my rest be?

Also, before I get to full potential the first time, my legs shake. Not horribly but just enough to make me want to quit. (or a little more than everything else in this workout does) Are my legs not strong enough or is this normal? My target muscles are stiff but they aren't that uncomfortable. It is kind of hard to breath but that's not bad. It's to a degree that is to be expected and I can still breath properly.

All that and I believe I'm already seeing some progress and thanks for making my life really difficult. I hope your hips are going ok. Seeya!

[ArthurKing]

Thanks Dan, i'm getting the 2 stretching threads confused, took your advice and last nights stretches were much better. I may give foam roller stuff a go too
Cheers.

[The Wiseman]

Oh and did I mention I'm doing them tonight, so.. Kinda be good to have that info. So anyone who knows?

[Patrick Smith]

Hi! I have started from level one isosplits and I did level 6 most resently. I wondered am I supposed to get all the way up after a set? Or am supposed to still have my legs spread but take pressure off? Or is relaxing the stretch simply to stop the tension and just sit there for a little. How long should my rest be?

Also, before I get to full potential the first time, my legs shake. Not horribly but just enough to make me want to quit. (or a little more than everything else in this workout does) Are my legs not strong enough or is this normal? My target muscles are stiff but they aren't that uncomfortable. It is kind of hard to breath but that's not bad. It's to a degree that is to be expected and I can still breath properly.

All that and I believe I'm already seeing some progress and thanks for making my life really difficult. I hope your hips are going ok. Seeya!

I think that when your legs are shaking uncontrollably it means that they are too tired/weak to safely hold the position they are in. Also, it is probably very taxing on your Central Nervous System (CNS) to force your limits very often. Make sure you can lift moderately heavy with lunges, squats, and deadlifts before you go to wild with the isometrics.

Regarding the sets/tensions, I think you're supposed to get up after each set, shake your legs out, circle your hips, and get ready for the next set. Does Dan's program prescribe a certain amount of resting time after each set? If it does, follow it. If it doesn't, a minute or two is probably fine.

One way of doing the contract/relax method is to maximally contract for 5 seconds, relax for 10 while slipping into a deeper stretch IF POSSIBLE (don't force it if you haven't done the heavy strength preparation), and repeat until you reach a range of motion (ROM) that hasn't increased since the last contraction (for example, if you contract and relax, can't slide any deeper, hold for 10 seconds, contract and relax again, still can't slide any deeper, get out of stretch and rest a minute or two).

I hope this helps.

[The Wiseman]

Thanks pat!

[ArthurKing]

:cool:Thanks a lot people, did stretches last night, no pain! Felt good, have started strength exercises, warm ups and some joint rotations as part of the set and i'm feeling confident!

[Patrick Smith]

:cool:Thanks a lot people, did stretches last night, no pain! Felt good, have started strength exercises, warm ups and some joint rotations as part of the set and i'm feeling confident!

Great to hear, Arthur! :)

[Cameron Avery]

A flexible body can perform exercise in better way, and
secure from the injury. the above mention
information is quite right.

[ShouBox]

So.. my TKD class does;

cardio warm ups, joint warm up, isometric stretching, and then the main

Should I consider quitting?

[Patrick Smith]

Sounds good! Stick with it! :cool:

[proteinnerd]

Sounds good! Stick with it! :cool:


I think he is referring to the bad sequencing of exercises ie: of doing isometrics before the main part of his class which would involve dynamic movements.

Its a tough situation to be in. I suggest evaluating the class as a whole. Is the quality of instruction high in all the other areas? and subsequently worth the effort of essentially questioning your instructors knowledge?

If it is, it might be an idea to tell him you had heard that you get better flexibility gains by doing isometric stretching at the end of a class and see what he says, it can be a hard thing to do but I think if the guy is clued up enough to know about isometrics, he probably knows they should be done at the end of a class but does them when he does out of ease of structuring a class.

It can be a pain in the ass to keep your eye on the time and stop all the fun stuff 15 minutes early to go into isometrics at the end.

If of course the rest of his instruction isnt great, it might be worth it to look around and see what else is available.

The other option is of course to fake doing isometrics when he runs the class through them and do them on your own at the end of class by yourself....

[Patrick Smith]

I see what you mean, but I don't actually think that doing isometrics before class is a bad thing at all as long as the isometrics are not extreme enough to be exhausting and the following class material is not too technical for the fatigue to be detrimental. Remember that maximal strength training should precede endurance and light technical stuff. Light to mildly extensive isometrics for the adductors and hamstrings should not be overly fatiguing before the class. They could be done before or afterwards, but it really is such a minor issue. Not at all worth leaving the class for.

[ShouBox]

Thank you guys I feel so much more relieved.

Oh yea, yesterday I did the routine recommended on page 2. It worked great, my thighs were smiling after. Thank you for posting this.

[Patrick Smith]

Thank you guys I feel so much more relieved.

Oh yea, yesterday I did the routine recommended on page 2. It worked great, my thighs were smiling after. Thank you for posting this.

Good! :)

By the way, nice avatar. :cool:

[ArthurKing]

Just keeping you guys posted, kicked someone (and drew blood- more to do with his zits than my savagery) on the chin for the first time ever last friday! Cheers peeps!