What was your face before your parents were born?

[Charbodan]

Ok, I know I stole this from the "What is the sound of one hand clapping? thread.

I cannot face this question.

[YODA]

It is found in an experience.

It is always present - often missed.

[Charbodan]

and for you Yoda does the experience reveal anything?

I comprehend it as an experience...

How are you affected by it?

For myself, I put aside any interpretation and found only an emotion.

Not that this was a solution. It was just my experience.

Your thoughts?

[YODA]

Originally posted by Charbodan
and for you Yoda does the experience reveal anything?

Oh yes. A mere fleeting glimpse of why and what.

[Charbodan]

lol I hope you do better then I did.

[Kwajman]

This question makes my head hurt...

[nzric]

And do people who have plastic surgery have to get a new passport??

[Brad Ellin]

Originally posted by Charbodan
Ok, I know I stole this from the "What is the sound of one hand clapping? thread.

I cannot face this question.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

My face was as it is now, only it did not exist.

[Merlin]

The answer to this question, and many others like it, is in science and logic.

To ask such a question would be to set yourself a challenge you cannot complete, and to realise such before you ask yourself the question, helps you answer it.

Confusing I know.

Scientifically, you wouldn't have a face before your parents were born. You only have a face once you are born, because you don't exist until that moment. You could ask yourself what you would've looked like, had your grandparents been your parents... Now that would be a real mindbender!

Getting down to the sound of one hand clapping. There is no such thing; one hand cannot clap, clapping envolves two hands. The correct phrase is "The sound of a one armed man attempting to clap", with the answer being "The noise of his clothing and the movement of the air". Yet again, to suggest that one hand on its own can clap is the pitfall. If you assume right from the beginning that this isn't possible, you've already answered the question.

But what would it sound like if you could clap with only one hand? Well the answer is in the question, it would sound like a clap! Whose to say it would ever make a different noise? There is only one noise that defines a clap, even if there were to be one hand envolved, and that hand waving in the air could only be called a clapping hand, if it eminated a clapping noise.

And that is what I got after about a week of meditating on the subject!

[YODA]

Getting down to the sound of one hand clapping. There is no such thing; one hand cannot clap, clapping envolves two hands.

As I've said MANY times in the post about this - the question is NOT about one hand clapping. :rolleyes:

[Merlin]

Originally posted by YODA
As I've said MANY times in the post about this - the question is NOT about one hand clapping. :rolleyes:

No but it demonstrates a general trend in asking such questions. Setting yourself challenges you cannot overcome in the conventional way.

[Tireces]

My face before my parents were born? I think I'll show my irreverance for the topic by saying it was 1ONEFighting's avatar.

[snailfist]

This particular koan i feel lacks the depth of the one hand...

I can't locate substance to back up the mystery, so i just find it pretentious.

[RubyMoon]

Originally posted by Merlin
And that is what I got after about a week of meditating on the subject! Meditate more.

[Kosh]

I dont really understand the point of this question, its like ansking what my third ear looks like. Plus i dont understand the relavence of it including your parents... i mean what did you look like before you were existed? is that not as cryptic?

But you need to re-address what you call your face.

Someone said that your face doesnt excist untul you are born...thats not true, unborn babies have faces. But if you go back further, at what point does the collection of cells cease to be defined as a face?

Whats more the face you where born with isnt the face you have now, obviously it doesnt look much like it, but more fundamentally the cells that made up you face when you where a child are long since dead ... your entire body is renewed every 8 years.

but i think that all these points are pretty much surperfluous to the point of the question and i think the question boils down to a much more fundamental one...

what was i before i existed?

Which has just brought me to a very stark realisation...

[Merlin]

Originally posted by RubyMoon
Meditate more.

How obnoxious. It's rude to just demand something of someone you don't even know, especially when it's something that is usually left up to personal choice. Perhaps you should meditate on that one for a while.

[Greg-VT]

Originally posted by Merlin
And that is what I got after about a week of meditating on the subject!

Wrong subject.

[Merlin]

Originally posted by Ving Tsun
Wrong subject.

For gods sake what is it with this forum and two word answers? Do you have problems with english or something?

And why the hell can't you just keep it to yourself and save us all an argument?

[Greg-VT]

You like arguments, huh?

[Merlin]

Originally posted by Ving Tsun
You like arguments, huh?

What?

[Greg-VT]

What? What do you mean what?
Do you have problems with english or something??


You seem to be the type of character that arguments follow around.

[Merlin]

I'm getting a distinct feeling of deja vu. Or more precisely, Deja Moo, the feeling I've heard this bull before.

Keep it on topic or mods/admins might close the thread.

[Greg-VT]

Exactly.:rolleyes:

[RubyMoon]

Originally posted by Merlin
How obnoxious. It's rude to just demand something of someone you don't even know, especially when it's something that is usually left up to personal choice. Perhaps you should meditate on that one for a while. I was simply trying to help. If you are interested in finding the answer to the question, you will have to meditate more. Your premise that, "The answer to this question, and many others like it, is in science and logic," is incorrect. The answer is not scientific, nor logical. It is experiential. What I mean by that is it cannot truly be related to another person in language; it must be experienced. Your answer suggests you have not yet experienced it.

I'm not claiming to have experienced any of these insights myself, and I certainly don't have all the answers. I will say, however, I have spent most of my life thinking and meditating on these kinds of questions. I believe I have may have a bit of insight to offer on the subject. You may accept it or reject it as you see fit.

Either way, my suggestion remains the same. If the worst thing that happens to me all week is being called "rude and obnoxious," I must be doing something right! ;)

As an aside...

And why the hell can't you just keep it to yourself and save us all an argument?Merlin, message boards are all about dialogue. Argument and debate invariably arise. If this were not true, this forum would not be flooded with hundreds of new messages every day. If everybody agreed about everything, not only would the world be incredibly dull, we'd never make any progress. What if everybody agreed that the world was flat? What if nobody ever stood up and said slavery was wrong? Where would we be?

I think you would benefit from growing thicker skin and accepting the fact that people are going to argue with you, doubt you, and maybe even provoke you. It happens; try not to take everything so personally. I have viewed three other threads which have been locked at least in part due to your participation. What does that tell you?

Try to remember that behind every post is a real person, not so different from yourself. Just because people disagree with you doesn't make them the enemy.

[Merlin]

OK look, I'm not going to argue, but my point here is, why set yourself the impossible task of answering a question that requires you to experience, when experiencing itself is impossible? Only science and logic can take this question and give a literal answer that makes at least some sense, hence my premise.

I can't travel back in time, and look at my face before I was born, mainly because I can't travel back in time. Even if I could travel back in time, it still would make me no better or worse having answered this question.

[Adrift_Quasar]

Well if my parents weren't born yet, how could I have a face?

[Tireces]

Originally posted by Merlin
For gods sake what is it with this forum and two word answers? Do you have problems with english or something?


Not really.

[Greg-VT]

Originally posted by Merlin
OK look, I'm not going to argue, but my point here is, why set yourself the impossible task of answering a question that requires you to experience, when experiencing itself is impossible? Only science and logic can take this question and give a literal answer that makes at least some sense, hence my premise.


Please, NO ONE show him the thread.


:D

[Kosh]

To say that logic doesnt apply to the question seems ... inaccurate and science is applied logic; so the question can be answered using logic. The question is flawed and void, like 'what is the sound of on hand clapping?", which as yoda pointed out is a popularised version of the 'real' question.

The 'What was your face..." question is impossible to answer

what was (X) before (X) existed?...self defeating

It can however be resolved when you realise that it is impossible to pinpoint a moment in time when your face came about and its just as impossible to pinpoint a moment in time when you came about (i challenge anyone to find the exact moment they came into existence).

Likewise its impossible to find a point in space where you begin, you cant point at a map of the universe and say " that area there is me". So the logical conclusion of this is that the concept of self is an illusion, there are no boundries between 'self ' and the 'everything else'.

[Tireces]

Purple monkey dishwasher.

And so ends any further contribution from me to such a lame debate.

[RubyMoon]

Originally posted by Merlin
Only science and logic can take this question and give a literal answer that makes at least some sense, hence my premise.There is an ancient zen riddle, "When you seek it, you cannot find it." If you focus too much upon the answer, you will never discover the true meaning behind the question. I realize this sounds rather circular and vague, but that is the nature of a koan. Koans aren't meant to be answered with logic. They are intended to expand your consciousness, to change the way you think about things.

Imagine you're a carpenter and an expert with a hammer. One day, your kitchen sink gets backed up. No problem! You get under the sink and start banging away with your hammer. You give it your best strokes, but to no avail. You are a brilliant carpenter, but your knowledge seems useless against this problem. Hours later, you've made no progress at all, until suddenly...a flash of inspiration hits you. What you need is a wrench! So you go find a wrench and fix the sink in a matter of minutes.

Silly, perhaps, but this is the kind of profound change in thinking a koan is designed to facilitate. Often this change involves a shift from the rational to the abstract, from intellect to intuition.

So, let's "face" it...maybe it's time to get a wrench.

[RubyMoon]

Originally posted by Tireces
Purple monkey dishwasher. You do have a way with words, Tireces... :D

[Shade]

No doubt some deep and meaningful meditation will result in enlightnment on a spiritual level by pondering this question.

On a more basic level, my own face before my parents were born was that of my maternal grandfather.

Looking at pictures of him as a young man is almost like looking in a mirror for me.

According to my mother, I have some of his habits. Also he apparently always wanted to go and live in New Zealand, and I have been there (and lost my virginity to a Kiwi) so find it a little spooky.

[Merlin]

I see your point Ruby, and I happen to agree. On questions that would have an answer that made no sense, it's probably best to focus on the question more than the answer.

[RubyMoon]

Originally posted by Shade
Also he apparently always wanted to go and live in New Zealand, and I have been there (and lost my virginity to a Kiwi) so find it a little spooky. I'm finding the phrase, "lost my virginity to a kiwi," more than a little spooky...

:eek:

[Shade]

I'm finding the phrase, "lost my virginity to a kiwi," more than a little spooky...

Well it could have been worse.

There was a kid at my secondary school who had the nickname 'Melon Man'......made me think about him when I saw American Pie i can tell u :D

[RubyMoon]

Originally posted by Shade
There was a kid at my secondary school who had the nickname 'Melon Man'...... Wow. I'll never look at a melon the same way again! (Or a kiwi for that matter...) :eek:

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the garden...

[Shade]

U do know i wasnt talking about a small brown hairy fruit dont you.

Its not THAT small :eek:

[RubyMoon]

Originally posted by Shade
U do know i wasnt talking about a small brown hairy fruit dont you.

Its not THAT small :eek: Must be a British thing. Here in the states, a kiwi is a small brown hairy fruit. But hey, I'm just a silly yank. For all I know, maybe in the U.K. a kiwi isn't the only thing that's small brown and hairy.... :Angel:

[Greg-VT]

lol

A Kiwi is a New Zealander.

It's just a nickname, like Yank, Pom, and Aussie.

:D

[Shade]

Thanks VT :D

And Ruby dont be so hard on yourself...your not JUST a silly yank :p

[RubyMoon]

Originally posted by Ving Tsun
A Kiwi is a New Zealander.
It's just a nickname, like Yank, Pom, and Aussie.Wow. Ya learn something new every day! I'm finding the "lost my virginity to a kiwi" statement MUCH less distressing now. So, I got kiwi...yank...and aussie...

...but what's a Pom??

[Shade]

...but what's a Pom??

That would be where I come in.

Havent u heard those aussie's going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about us whinging poms?

See here for an interesting discussion on poms

http://discussions.bbcamerica.com/thread.jspa?threadID=8798&tstart=75

[Greg-VT]

That would be where I come in.

Havent u heard those aussie's going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about us whinging poms?


HahahaHA!!

:p :D

It's 11.30pm and that gave me my first smile of the day :)

hehe

[Shade]

Hey VT glad u took it how it was intended :D

I cant remember now who it was, but some comedian did a sketch a while back about an Aussie sitting there talking about Poms, saying things like 'they just whinge and moan and whinge and moan and moan and whinge' etc for ages. Of course it was really funny.

;)

[Kosh]

Originally posted by RubyMoon
There is an ancient zen riddle, "When you seek it, you cannot find it." If you focus too much upon the answer, you will never discover the true meaning behind the question.

Thats riddle has an answer

There are probably alot of things that you cant find if you look for them but i think in the case of this riddle the thing it is refering to is the answer to this riddle.

Im still a bit cautious of this 'logic doesnt work' thing, seems like a get out clause.