Lesnar vs Couture

[Patrick_baji]

david vs goliath battle here....although a rather technical david

I personally think couture is just too experienced and too good for someone so new to the sport (despite their unbelievable strength and size)


any thoughts?

[Yohan]

I think lesnar is going to win.

[Errrm]

I think Lesnar will win, he's in a period of steep learning curve so I think he will have improved his striking, submissions (including avoidence/escape) and tactics will have improved dramatically.

[Studude67]

To just look at the two i would say Lesnar, but then Randy's experience changes everything.

looking at the pro picks on Sherdog.com the results when asked who will win tomorrow are as follows:

Pros who picked Couture: 28
Pros who picked Lesnar: 6
No pick: 10

that being said it is interesting when i look on betfair.com at the odds on the fight:

Randy Couture to win currently 2.22 (6/5)
Brock Lesnar to win currently 1.77 (4/5)

this shows Brock to be the favourite but the money is evenly spread with around 10 000pounds on each fighter.

...interesting

[CKava]

I hope Couture wins... but it will certainly be interesting to see what Lesnar comes up with.

[old palden]

Lesnar.

[callsignfuzzy]

I won't be surprised if Lesnar wins, but I'm predicting that Couture's experience and game-planning will get wim the win. I think he'll use his strikes to set up his takedowns, and put Brock on his back, where he's never been before, and either get the UD or a TKO stoppage. If Brock wins, it'll be a short fight; if Couture wins, it'll be a longer fight.

[narcsarge]

I'd like to see Randy win but as I said on another thread I think that Lesnar is younger, stronger, and faster then Couture. Couture is experienced and very intelligent and will probably come up w/ a good game plan for Lesnar. When I first heard of this match up I thought that Couture's experience would be way too much for Lesnar. I thought, just like the Mir fight, that Randy would school Lesnar and exploit his weaknesses. But I have been following the training, the interviews, the "all access" crap and I forget that Lesnar has improved tremendously since his first bout and he continues to improve. He is a quick learner. I really don't think that he should be given a Title shot w/ only 3 fights under his belt but hey, he is a name that pulls the crowd. Sure he beat Herring and his striking started it off but he finished on the ground. Couture is familiar w/ the ground as much as Lesnar so I think that is draw. Randy has the edge in intelligence and experience in MMA but Brock has youth and power. I will not be paying for the P4V but I certainly think this will be and interesting fight.

[Patrick_baji]

:(

[callsignfuzzy]

Let's keep the discussion going, but remember to use spoiler tags 'til 24 hours after the event.

I didn't get to see it, but kept refreshing the Sherdog play-by-play page. I guess Couture stuffed a few Lesnar shots before getting hit? From the sound of it he tried to play the clinch game. I think that was a mistake.

I was also picking Stevenson to beat Florian, but apparently Milhouse has turned into a beast. It'll be interesting to see him vs. Penn. I'm even starting to wonder if he might take Sherk in a rematch.

Hazlett is someone to keep your eye on. He gave Koscheck a hard time, pulled of a whizzer-into-an-armbar against Burkman, and now pulled off another unorthodox submission. If he keeps this up he may get a title shot by early 2010.

Am I the only one who still wonders when being best friends with Rich Franklin won't be enough to save Gurgel from the chopping block?

I was also a little disappointed to hear Alvin Robinson lost. Not a particularly big fan, but he's a decent figher in a gatekeeper sort of way.

[Marauder]

I didn't get to see it, but kept refreshing the Sherdog play-by-play page. I guess Couture stuffed a few Lesnar shots before getting hit? From the sound of it he tried to play the clinch game. I think that was a mistake.

It's a pity that Couture lost. After the first round I actually thoght Couture would win. Lesnar, while being much bigger really strunggled with Couture. It wasn't until the 2nd round and Lesnar connected with a sledghammer that it was over for Couture. Too big and too powerful. I also though Couture seemed a bit lethargic. His lateral movement wasn't great.

[Patrick_baji]

dw...nogueria will submit lesnar, wait and see

[callsignfuzzy]

We'll see. Nog's fought bigger guys, like Sapp. The thing is, unlike Sapp, Lesnar seems to know what he's doing. That said, I'd still like to see Nog win.

[Yohan]

I'm going to have to go with lesnar being the undisputed HW champ after beating the winner of Nog vs. Mir.

It was messed up that Couture actually lost out when he tried to box lesnar - not in the clinch or on the ground. Couture's decision to clinch up with him and use the dirty boxing was the best thing he could have done. I just about jumped up out of my chair and cheered when Couture almost took him down at the end of round one, or when he reversed the mount and almost got on top of Lesnar - it was freaking fantastic!

[old palden]

Like him or not, Lesnar is bigger, faster and stronger than anyone else in the game. Add to that a tremendous work ethic and a solid (and expanding) skill set, and you have a guy who's going simply overpower all but one or two guys, and I'll bet on him against ANYONE.

I've said it on other threads, and I'll say it here. Lesnar's going to dominate the UFC heavyweight division for the next few years.

[Oversoul]

It's a pity that Couture lost. After the first round I actually thoght Couture would win. Lesnar, while being much bigger really strunggled with Couture. It wasn't until the 2nd round and Lesnar connected with a sledghammer that it was over for Couture. Too big and too powerful. I also though Couture seemed a bit lethargic. His lateral movement wasn't great.

Yeah, Couture looked slow in the first round. He picked it up in the second and I thought that he was going to successfully execute a gameplan of wearing Lesnar down. Both guys actually looked kind of sluggish the whole time though.

I disagree about "too big and too powerful." Couture played around with head movement just like he developed a propensity to do ever since coming back out of retirement, and got hit with a hard shot right on the temple. Lesnar being a huge, strong guy was obviously going to matter. But that shot didn't look like something that could only have come from a huge, strong guy. Lots of heavyweights can easily put that much power behind a punch. And if it lands where that one landed, it's probably going to be the end of the fight.

We'll see. Nog's fought bigger guys, like Sapp. The thing is, unlike Sapp, Lesnar seems to know what he's doing. That said, I'd still like to see Nog win.

I haven't really seen the evidence for this, other than in the takedown department, where Lesnar is clearly much, much better than Sapp was. I'd think he's better at other stuff too, but I haven't really seen it demonstrated in his four fights. It really still seems like he's untested.

Like him or not, Lesnar is bigger, faster and stronger than anyone else in the game.

Choi Hong-Man is definitely bigger. Lots and lots of fighters are faster. Especially if the fight against Couture is a good indication of his speed. Not sure about stronger...

I've said it on other threads, and I'll say it here. Lesnar's going to dominate the UFC heavyweight division for the next few years.

I doubt he'll win his next match. Mir spanked him like a baby once and can in all probability do it again in the event that it's Mir he faces next. Same with Nogueira, only moreso.

[old palden]

I doubt he'll win his next match. Mir spanked him like a baby once and can in all probability do it again in the event that it's Mir he faces next. Same with Nogueira, only moreso.

You probably doubted that he'd win his last match too, and we all know how that turned out.

[sliver]

Didn't know how to call this one myself. I'm a bit disappointed that Coture lost, but only because I've always liked Randy. I'm still trying to bring myself to accept the idea that some guy who came from pro wrestling of all places can be a serious competitor. I'm nowhere near ready to crown him king yet, but after beating Harring and Coture, he does have to be taken seriously now, he's earned at least that. I'll be intersted to see him fight big Nog.

[Oversoul]

You probably doubted that he'd win his last match too, and we all know how that turned out.

I did pick Couture, if that's what you mean. But I wasn't shocked that he was taken out. It's happened to him before and he's only gotten older. Nogueira, on the other hand, has never been taken out.

I'm still trying to bring myself to accept the idea that some guy who came from pro wrestling of all places can be a serious competitor.

So Kazushi Sakuraba used to give you nightmares or what?

[aaron_mag]

Didn't know how to call this one myself. I'm a bit disappointed that Coture lost, but only because I've always liked Randy. I'm still trying to bring myself to accept the idea that some guy who came from pro wrestling of all places can be a serious competitor. I'm nowhere near ready to crown him king yet, but after beating Harring and Coture, he does have to be taken seriously now, he's earned at least that. I'll be intersted to see him fight big Nog.

He didn't really 'come from pro wrestling'. The guy is a former NCAA wrestling champion. Yes he did a stint in pro-wrestling (took the money), but the guy competed as a top level athlete on a national level as well.

I am not a Lesnar fan. Nothing I'd like better than to see Crocop knock him out with a left high kick.

That being said I don't think that would happen if they were ever matched up. The guy is good. I still think Nog and Fedor are the biggest threats to him (due to their submission game).

I think he beats Mir if they meet again. He was pounding the heck out of Mir in their first meeting. When they stood it back up because Lesnar was hitting Mir in the back of the head you have to remember that Mir was turning the back of his head to Lesnar because he was taking a pounding. It was a beautiful kneebar, but up till that point he was getting dominated. If they meet again Lesnar will be more cautious and Mir does not have a granite chin like Nog (who can take a beating forever yet still pull out that submission).

[aaron_mag]

So Kazushi Sakuraba used to give you nightmares or what?

Ha ha!!!! Good point. Never thought of that!

[JaxMMA]

Why so much hate towards Lesnar? Sure he used some HGH in the past, but he's still very athletic. Couture is and has been one of my favorite fighters, but you got to give some respect to Lesnar.
Why do people say Mir spanked Lesnar? Lesnar was OWNING him until Mir got a shot at his ankle and submitted him. If anything, Mir was the one who was getting spanked and taken down to the ground every time. Only thing that saved him was Lesnar's mistake of trying to step over him.
Cro Cop vs. Lesnar? Serioiusly? If he could beat Couture, then he can beat Cro Cop.
Now Nog vs. Lesnar, Fedor vs. Lesnar, or Fedor vs. Couture would be some damn good fights to see.

[roninmaster]

Why so much hate towards Lesnar? Sure he used some HGH in the past, but he's still very athletic. Couture is and has been one of my favorite fighters, but you got to give some respect to Lesnar.
Why do people say Mir spanked Lesnar? Lesnar was OWNING him until Mir got a shot at his ankle and submitted him. If anything, Mir was the one who was getting spanked and taken down to the ground every time. Only thing that saved him was Lesnar's mistake of trying to step over him.
Cro Cop vs. Lesnar? Serioiusly? If he could beat Couture, then he can beat Cro Cop.
Now Nog vs. Lesnar, Fedor vs. Lesnar, or Fedor vs. Couture would be some damn good fights to see.

the reason lesner gets no respect is:
1.) his victories arent really out of skill, sure he can wrestle; but most of his victories are out of the fact that he is freeking huge and just lays on his opponent while he ground and pounds them.( thats not skill, and alot of people hat that).
2.) u have people who fought for years before a title shot, and after his 4th fight he gets one!!:mad:
3.) i watched the replay 3 times and i still think coutor took a dive.
4.) plus hes a bad winner. he acts worse than tito. people hate seeing those people win
5.) oh and when he fought mir i wouldnt consider him owning him. sure he got some hits in and a takedown. but he hit him more than once in the back off the head, and when they got back up it was obvious mir new what he was doing.

[aaron_mag]

the reason lesner gets no respect is:
1.) his victories arent really out of skill, sure he can wrestle; but most of his victories are out of the fact that he is freeking huge and just lays on his opponent while he ground and pounds them.( thats not skill, and alot of people hat that).
2.) u have people who fought for years before a title shot, and after his 4th fight he gets one!!:mad:
3.) i watched the replay 3 times and i still think coutor took a dive.
4.) plus hes a bad winner. he acts worse than tito. people hate seeing those people win
5.) oh and when he fought mir i wouldnt consider him owning him. sure he got some hits in and a takedown. but he hit him more than once in the back off the head, and when they got back up it was obvious mir new what he was doing.

It is not just size that makes him good. There are plenty of big guys out there that have had very short careers. Lesnar is big, quick, agile, etc.

Again I'm not a fan of his. But when I saw the Mir fight I was just shaking my head at how much potential he had.

[Oversoul]

the reason lesner gets no respect is:
1.) his victories arent really out of skill, sure he can wrestle; but most of his victories are out of the fact that he is freeking huge and just lays on his opponent while he ground and pounds them.( thats not skill, and alot of people hat that).

Wrestling is a skill. And he's very good at it. He does lack skill in some other areas, but his victories really have been at least partially out of skill.

2.) u have people who fought for years before a title shot, and after his 4th fight he gets one!!:mad:

Yeah, it's ridiculous and should be embarrassing for them. Nog is the real champion (and I said so before the Lesnar won and I'd say so if Couture had won instead).

3.) i watched the replay 3 times and i still think coutor took a dive.

This is a serious accusation and I really doubt that you have anything to back it up. Don't fighter-bash.

4.) plus hes a bad winner. he acts worse than tito. people hate seeing those people win

Worse than Tito? That seems like an exaggeration. I don't know. It might be part of the reason for the hate...

5.) oh and when he fought mir i wouldnt consider him owning him. sure he got some hits in and a takedown. but he hit him more than once in the back off the head, and when they got back up it was obvious mir new what he was doing.

Mir dominated him. Those illegal shots weren't doing anything anyway and they were, well, illegal.

Lesnar is big, quick, agile, etc.

I've seen this claim numerous times, but I'm still skeptical. He looked almost lethargic against Couture (but both guys looked slow in that fight--it was weird). He didn't seem to be outspeeding Herring (just outwrestling him and overpowering him). And the only thing he did quickly against Mir was get kneebarred (okay, okay, he also had fast takedowns there, but it's not like they were particularly special for a wrestler of his caliber).

[ray8285]

Lots of heavyweights can easily put that much power behind a punch. And if it lands where that one landed, it's probably going to be the end of the fight.

Choi Hong-Man is definitely bigger. Lots and lots of fighters are faster. Especially if the fight against Couture is a good indication of his speed. Not sure about stronger...

Mir spanked him like a baby once and can in all probability do it again in the event that it's Mir he faces next. Same with Nogueira, only moreso.

Please name these HW fighters....

Being taller is not the same. Again name a fighter who is as big AND fast AND strong as Lesnar. You can cherry pick a fighter who is faster OR stronger OR bigger, but they won't have all three.

Mir was having his butt handed to him by Lesnar when he made a mental mistake and got caught. I doubt Lesnar makes the same mistake in a rematch.

For those who think Brock won by luck...he has hit three opponents in the UFC with the same right hand and all three went down, I wouldn't call that luck. If it was one time occurrence yes but not three consecutive fights.

[Doublejab]

Choi Hong-Man is definitely bigger. Lots and lots of fighters are faster. Especially if the fight against Couture is a good indication of his speed. Not sure about stronger...


Choi is both bigger and and probably stronger but as he's not a HW, he'd never make the division limit (265) so its pretty pointless comparing the two.

Personally I think Lesner is probably the biggest and strongest and one of the quickest HW's in the world. He was quicker than Herring, Coulture and Mir and none of them are slow. Herring in particualar is actually very quick for his size and Brock was noticably faster and more explosive.

I doubt he'll win his next match. Mir spanked him like a baby once and can in all probability do it again in the event that it's Mir he faces next. Same with Nogueira, only moreso.

By his own admission Mir was getting battered before he got the sub and that was Brock's SECOND fight, and the first against decent opposition. He's got better since then and I don't think a rematch with Mir is a foregone conclusion at all.

I agree with you about Nog though, I think he'll armbar or RNC Lesner. He'd better do anyway, if he loses I'll feel like I did when CC got KOed by Gonzaga :(

[Oversoul]

Please name these HW fighters....

Being taller is not the same. Again name a fighter who is as big AND fast AND strong as Lesnar. You can cherry pick a fighter who is faster OR stronger OR bigger, but they won't have all three.

Who said anything about "taller"? Are you saying that because I brought up Choi? He's definitely bigger than Lesnar too. AS for your triple threat of bigger, stronger, and faster, two of those are harder to measure if not at least a little bit subjective. I could say that I think a fighter is bigger, stronger, and faster, but you might disagree. I don't see why it matters though. A fighter doesn't need to be all three of those to beat Lesnar decisively. Actually, a fighter doesn't need to be even one of those to beat Lesnar decisively.

Mir was having his butt handed to him by Lesnar when he made a mental mistake and got caught. I doubt Lesnar makes the same mistake in a rematch.

Again with this blaming Lesnar's loss solely on Lesnar? As I said before in another thread, this could be applied to literally anyone. I don't know why people only use it for him. Give credit where credit is due. That kneebar was awesome.


Choi is both bigger and and probably stronger but as he's not a HW, he'd never make the division limit (265) so its pretty pointless comparing the two.

The thing I'd call pointless is the cap on the HW division.

Personally I think Lesner is probably the biggest and strongest and one of the quickest HW's in the world. He was quicker than Herring, Coulture and Mir and none of them are slow. Herring in particualar is actually very quick for his size and Brock was noticably faster and more explosive.

He didn't look at all quicker than Couture to me. Or Mir, for that matter. Herring is sometimes very explosive and sometimes lazy, though.

By his own admission Mir was getting battered before he got the sub and that was Brock's SECOND fight, and the first against decent opposition. He's got better since then and I don't think a rematch with Mir is a foregone conclusion at all.

He can be "battered" for two and a half rounds before the sub and still win the match. If Lesnar's G&P had been so incredibly effective, it would have been, well, effective. I do think that he's improved, though. I'm just skeptical that it's enough already. It's not like the kneebar from that position is the only way for Mir to win. He does do other subs and Lesnar will need truly solid submission defense...

I agree with you about Nog though, I think he'll armbar or RNC Lesner. He'd better do anyway, if he loses I'll feel like I did when CC got KOed by Gonzaga :(

Yeah.

[callsignfuzzy]

I'm still trying to bring myself to accept the idea that some guy who came from pro wrestling of all places can be a serious competitor.

Brock has been doing amateur wrestling since he was five, and was the US college (NCAA) wrestling champion in 2000. He had a choice to either train for the Olympics, or go into pro wrestling. Pro wrestling pays much better, so...

Why so much hate towards Lesnar? Sure he used some HGH in the past,

With all due respect, there's been no proof of this, or even claims from anyone who's known him. Lesnar's always been a big boy.

1.) his victories arent really out of skill, sure he can wrestle; but most of his victories are out of the fact that he is freeking huge and just lays on his opponent while he ground and pounds them.( thats not skill, and alot of people hat that).

Wrestling is a skill. So is ground-and-pound. He doesn't "lay" on his opponent, he uses good possitional skills from wrestling (riding, as opposed to the guard pass-side control-mount game played by BJJ) to control his opponent and limit their offensive options. And he's really not that much bigger than the other heavyweights.

2.) u have people who fought for years before a title shot, and after his 4th fight he gets one!!

This is a sentiment I can agree with. I don't think he earned his shot. I don't think he's paid his dues yet. But, let's be honest, this match probably made the UFC more money than all but maybe one or two shows. I can see why they'd do it. I just think Werdum, Carwin, or someone like that was more deserving.

3.) i watched the replay 3 times and i still think coutor took a dive.

Well, you're entitled to your opponion, but I think the fact that he got hit with a fist so big that they have to custom-make gloves for it probably had something to do with it, too.

4.) plus hes a bad winner. he acts worse than tito. people hate seeing those people win

Again, I'd have to disagree. Tito flipping off the cornermen, wearing T-shirts that disrespect his opponent, and making grave-digging motions is far worse than Brock pointing and laughing at Herring. They had some history, too. Herring had basically said that Brock wasn't worthy of him. And they did shake hands after the match...

5.) oh and when he fought mir i wouldnt consider him owning him. sure he got some hits in and a takedown. but he hit him more than once in the back off the head, and when they got back up it was obvious mir new what he was doing.

Lesnar was winning 85 out of 90 seconds of that fight. That's how long it took Mir to get a single offensive move in. Now, it was the fight-winning move, and hats off to him. He had a bad possition and ended up winning. But not only was Lesnar getting "some hits in and a takedown" (I mean, how else do you quallify dominance when the opponent can't do anything back?), but early on he did a good job of staying out of Mir's guard, using his scrambling and riding abilities to move around to his head.

And in fairness, even though it's illegal, it's hard to blame Lesnar entirely for hitting the back of Mir's head. Mir had rolled over and wasn't doing much to defend himself. When Mazagatti stepped in, I thought he was going to stop the match. But my point is that if Mir had been able to better control Lesnar, he wouldn't have just rolled over and hid his face.

I've seen this claim numerous times, but I'm still skeptical.

The man moves fast in a scramble. And he moves relatively fast for a guy who would eat his way to 300lbs in a sitting. I wouldn't say he's fast, exactly, but explosive. Short bursts of speed.

The thing I'd call pointless is the cap on the HW division.

However pointless you think it is, the fact remains that Choi isn't a HW under any rules that the UFC would use.

And for argument's sake, if you're not going to put a cap on the HW division, why not take away the caps for other divisions? Go back to when the UFC had Heavyweight (200+) and Lightweight (199 and under). After all, if you could have a 325lb Choi fight a guy he outweighs by 100lbs, why not have Miguel Torres fight a guy who outweighs him by 50lbs or 70lbs? Come on. Weight caps are there for the fighter's safety.

[Pitfighter]

Man I wish I was on this thread before the fight. I coulda told y'all the outcome before it happened. Course saying after the fact don't matter.
the reason lesner gets no respect is:

3.) i watched the replay 3 times and i still think coutor took a dive.


Look dude your totally wrong. That is the standard bull everyone says when their fighter loses.

The truth is that Couture got his ass beat by Dana white being sued for 15 months. Being trapped in litigation isn't the ideal situation for a fighter in the twilight of his career.

Couture was making an honest effort to unify the HW division against Fedor Emelianko and when the UFC got in the middle it messed everything up.

Couture was left to rust and couldn't train properly cuz he was trying to see the litigation through.

He wasn't running out of options and racing against father time. Unfortunately Dana White had enough money and suits to throw at Couture to wear him down into taking a fight against Lesnar, A fight he wasn't motivated for.

[Oversoul]

However pointless you think it is, the fact remains that Choi isn't a HW under any rules that the UFC would use.

Which only reflects poorly on the UFC. If Choi did happen to be dominating everywhere else, the UFC would simply be saying, "Sorry, but you're too big to be a fighter as far as we're concerned." That just seems bad for the sport. If they don't have a weightclass for guys like him, they should let them in the biggest weight class.

And for argument's sake, if you're not going to put a cap on the HW division, why not take away the caps for other divisions?

Because they're not the biggest one?

Go back to when the UFC had Heavyweight (200+) and Lightweight (199 and under). After all, if you could have a 325lb Choi fight a guy he outweighs by 100lbs, why not have Miguel Torres fight a guy who outweighs him by 50lbs or 70lbs?

That's not a lack of caps. That's just putting caps in different places. And the weight difference when you get up there doesn't have same effect. If Choi's enormous size made him so impossible for other fighters to beat, why is he 1-1?

Come on. Weight caps are there for the fighter's safety.

Is there any data showing that the cap on the heavyweight division specifically provides safety? The other divisions have nothing to do with it.

[Doublejab]

Which only reflects poorly on the UFC. If Choi did happen to be dominating everywhere else, the UFC would simply be saying, "Sorry, but you're too big to be a fighter as far as we're concerned." That just seems bad for the sport. If they don't have a weightclass for guys like him, they should let them in the biggest weight class.

Well he's not so thats hypothetical.


Because they're not the biggest one?


Offically fighters over 265 are super HW. Here is a list: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder.php?firstname=&lastname=&search=yes&nickname=&association=&weight=265.1+AND+999.0

There was actually a SHW fight in the UFC, Tim Sylvia vs Gan Mcgee. Since then they have discontinued the division simply because there is not enough talent to supoort one.

Is there any data showing that the cap on the heavyweight division specifically provides safety? The other divisions have nothing to do with it.

No but MMA is still illegal in some countries and even some states in the US, including NY, and sports commisions do not like large weight differences. If a huge fighter like Choi came in and beat a small HW it would do the UFC's campaign to prove that MMA is a legitimate sport considerable damage.

[Oversoul]

Well he's not so thats hypothetical.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

Offically fighters over 265 are super HW. Here is a list: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder.php?firstname=&lastname=&search=yes&nickname=&association=&weight=265.1+AND+999.0

Officially according to the UFC? I don't see why that would matter. They don't have a superheavy weight class anyway.

There was actually a SHW fight in the UFC, Tim Sylvia vs Gan Mcgee. Since then they have discontinued the division simply because there is not enough talent to supoort one.

And any talented fighters who happen to be that heavy are left to fight in other organizations. Which they've done.

No but MMA is still illegal in some countries and even some states in the US, including NY, and sports commisions do not like large weight differences. If a huge fighter like Choi came in and beat a small HW it would do the UFC's campaign to prove that MMA is a legitimate sport considerable damage.

Campaign? Oh, come on. What is this? The 90's?

[callsignfuzzy]

Which only reflects poorly on the UFC.
Officially according to the UFC?

This isn't the UFC's doing. Well, not directly. The separation of weight classes was created under the Unified Rules, which were put together by the various state athletic commissions. It's not like Dana White and the Ferttita brothers were standing in front of a giant dry-erase board and trying to figure this out. If the UFC hadn't abided by the Unified Rules, there's a good chance that it wouldn't exist today, and that MMA in the US would have all but disappeared.

That just seems bad for the sport. If they don't have a weightclass for guys like him, they should let them in the biggest weight class.

So it's bad for the sport that we'll never have a Sapp-Nogueira rematch? As Snoop said, there's already a SHW division. Only a handful of guys actually have the tallent to be watchable above that weight, and most of them could cut to 265 if they wanted: Bigfoot Silva (already done so), Tom Erikson, Mark Hunt... Brock Lesnar...

And the weight difference when you get up there doesn't have same effect.

If Hong Man Choi fought Randy Couture or Brandon Vera, he'd have a 100lbs weight advantage. That's rougly 1/3rd of their body weight. If two guys fight at 155, and one walks around at 160, and the other at 185, which is huge for that weight class, there would still only be roughly 15% of a "natural" weight difference between them. And some of that would be diminished by having to weigh in at the same weight. Nobody is going to go from 155 to 185 overnight. Percentage-wise, there's far less of a difference at the lower weight classes than in the extreme case of Couture-Choi.

Choi's enormous size made him so impossible for other fighters to beat, why is he 1-1?

I don't recall anyone saying he was impossible to beat. However, the fact that the guy who beat him is considered not only the best HW in the world, but one of the best fighters, doesn't help your case much. But think about this: as good as Fedor's takedowns are, he still ended up underneath Choi, twice. If Choi had any submission defense other than "fling arm around", how do you think that fight would have gone?

Is there any data showing that the cap on the heavyweight division specifically provides safety?

Well, the flip side of the argument is that weight doesn't matter in a fight. Surely you don't believe that. How do you think your average welter weight, say Josh Burkman, would handle your average LWH, say Thiago Silva? With a mere 35lbs separating them, what chance do you think Burkman would have of winning? How about HW vs. LW: Assuero Silva vs. Clay Guida? Would you really consider that anything close to a fair fight? At what point does size difference no longer become a factor? Bigger guys will hit harder, are harder to take down, are stronger, and carry more mass in a ground battle. Do you honestly believe that any other heavyweight, besides maybe Lesnar, could have manhandled Nogueira like Sapp did? Do you believe any other heavyweight could have tossed Fedor around in the air with one arm like Choi did? I don't think we need any studies to show that fighting a bigger, stronger, harder-hitting opponent places you in a riskier situation than fighting one your own size.

Campaign? Oh, come on. What is this? The 90's?

Don't kid yourself. MMA is still illegal in places like New York State and Ontario Province. It's still seen as barbaric, human "rooster"-fighting by a lot of the public, and worse, by a lot of politicians. MMA has come a long way since the days when it was taken off of TV, but it's not out of the woods yet.

[Doublejab]

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

lol, that takes me back to my school days! Obvious it may have been, but it still didn't strike you that the point you were making, was...pointless.

And any talented fighters who happen to be that heavy are left to fight in other organizations. Which they've done.

There are very very few 'talented' fighters who weigh more than 265. Care to name a couple? Choi has had 2 MMA fights and is not talented at MMA, he was a threat to Fedor due to his size, not his skill.

Campaign? Oh, come on. What is this? The 90's?

If you don't know about the UFC's high profile campaign to legalise MMA in NY then you should read more and educate yourself before writing comments like that.

[Yohan]

There are very very few 'talented' fighters who weigh more than 265. Care to name a couple?

"Giant" Silva, although I think he can fight at 265 since he got his tumor taken out.

[callsignfuzzy]

Are you thinking of Antonio "Bigfoot" Silva, who's only lost to Eric Pele? Because he's actually fought at 265 before. http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Antonio-Silva-12354

Paulo Cesar de Silva, AKA "Giant" Silva, weighs closer to 400lbs, has only won twice, and quite frankly sucks more than a Hoover. http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Paulo-Cesar-Silva-9400

[Doublejab]

"Giant" Silva, although I think he can fight at 265 since he got his tumor taken out.

Damn I forgot him. Silva's club hands FTW!

[Oversoul]

This isn't the UFC's doing. Well, not directly.

True. It still sucks. But the UFC has pretty much been at the mercy of athletic commissions.

So it's bad for the sport that we'll never have a Sapp-Nogueira rematch? As Snoop said, there's already a SHW division. Only a handful of guys actually have the tallent to be watchable above that weight, and most of them could cut to 265 if they wanted: Bigfoot Silva (already done so), Tom Erikson, Mark Hunt... Brock Lesnar...

Also true, but I don't see any good reason that they should have to cut down to 265 (maybe they fight better without having to cut weight). And the even smaller group of talented fighters who cannot cut down to that weight are left out entirely. I don't think it matters too much right now, but in principle, it's a bad thing.

If Hong Man Choi fought Randy Couture or Brandon Vera, he'd have a 100lbs weight advantage. That's rougly 1/3rd of their body weight. If two guys fight at 155, and one walks around at 160, and the other at 185, which is huge for that weight class, there would still only be roughly 15% of a "natural" weight difference between them. And some of that would be diminished by having to weigh in at the same weight. Nobody is going to go from 155 to 185 overnight. Percentage-wise, there's far less of a difference at the lower weight classes than in the extreme case of Couture-Choi.

This assumes that all that weight is always an advantage. I'm not arguing that it isn't an advantage at 185 vs. 155. But the same doesn't necessarily apply with heavier fighters. The human frame has limits.

I don't recall anyone saying he was impossible to beat. However, the fact that the guy who beat him is considered not only the best HW in the world, but one of the best fighters, doesn't help your case much.

What is it that you think my case is? Fedor being "one of the best fighters" shouldn't matter if the massive weight difference is such an advantage and the bigger fighter is relatively competent.

But think about this: as good as Fedor's takedowns are, he still ended up underneath Choi, twice. If Choi had any submission defense other than "fling arm around", how do you think that fight would have gone?

If Fedor had thought taking it to the ground wasn't good enough and that he needed to land on top, he probably wouldn't have gone for the exact same move again. He was apparently content to fight off his back there. Also, I'm not so sure Choi's armbar defense was THAT bad. His arms being so long undoubtedly made pulling off the armbar quite awkward, but probably also made defending difficult. I'm not sure. Fedor has armbarred a lot of people in any case, and surely not all of them were because the opponents sucked at submission defense...

Well, the flip side of the argument is that weight doesn't matter in a fight. Surely you don't believe that.

Of course not. I've said as much. How is it the "flip side" of anything I said?

How do you think your average welter weight, say Josh Burkman, would handle your average LWH, say Thiago Silva? With a mere 35lbs separating them, what chance do you think Burkman would have of winning? How about HW vs. LW: Assuero Silva vs. Clay Guida? Would you really consider that anything close to a fair fight? At what point does size difference no longer become a factor?

It's always a factor. But the fact that heavyweights, many of them on the small side of the weight class, are able to beat huge opponents, ones that would be superheavyweights, on a pretty regular basis suggests that the comparison between such fights and fights between the other weight classes is flawed somehow. I don't need to be able to say what the "somehow is." But I believe I do know...

Like I said, the human frame has limits. A 150-pound man going up against a 185-pound man faces an opponent who is likely to be considerably stronger, with more powerful strikes (more weight behind them), and harder to control in grappling. A 230-pound man who goes up against a 350-pound man faces the same problems (and the weight difference is clearly greater). But the amount by which the 350-pounder is actually stronger isn't going to be proportional to the difference with those smaller fighters. The huge guy is also likely to be considerably slower and to have less stamina.

There are advantages and disadvantages in both cases, but it seems that in the 150/185 case, the advantages for the bigger man are very important factors and the advantages for the smaller man are either negligible or simply not enough to compensate. But in the 230/350 case, at least when both men are skilled, the bigger man doesn't have such a prominent advantage and might even be at a disadvantage.

Bigger guys will hit harder, are harder to take down, are stronger, and carry more mass in a ground battle. Do you honestly believe that any other heavyweight, besides maybe Lesnar, could have manhandled Nogueira like Sapp did?

His "manhandling" was ineffective and he ultimately lost.

Do you believe any other heavyweight could have tossed Fedor around in the air with one arm like Choi did?

Didn't work, though, did it?

I don't think we need any studies to show that fighting a bigger, stronger, harder-hitting opponent places you in a riskier situation than fighting one your own size.

So, in other words, you're saying that such studies don't exist? Or do you think that a few cases of anecdotal evidence in which the outcome was the OPPOSITE of what it should have been to properly make such a case is seriously a substitute for serious studies?

Don't kid yourself. MMA is still illegal in places like New York State and Ontario Province. It's still seen as barbaric, human "rooster"-fighting by a lot of the public, and worse, by a lot of politicians. MMA has come a long way since the days when it was taken off of TV, but it's not out of the woods yet.

I agree, but what can you do? Add headgear and pads? Maybe a ball of some sort? Gaudy uniforms? If big fighters simply can't compete in U.S.-based organizations because of an "image" problem, well, I guess that's too bad for them. But it IS bad. Which was my point. If I remember correctly...

[Oversoul]

lol, that takes me back to my school days! Obvious it may have been, but it still didn't strike you that the point you were making, was...pointless.

Don't confuse hypothetical with pointless. They're quite different.

There are very very few 'talented' fighters who weigh more than 265. Care to name a couple? Choi has had 2 MMA fights and is not talented at MMA, he was a threat to Fedor due to his size, not his skill.

Wait a minute. Any fighter that big could be written off as a threat because of his size, not his skill. And I'd certainly consider being able to use size to your advantage as skill in the first place. But who's the arbiter of whether a fighter is actually skilled? You? There are some superheavyweights who have done well in MMA. None of them have been the best, but that's sort of my point (the smaller heavyweights have been able to beat them). But some of them do have winning records and have held their own. And I wouldn't yet put Choi in that group. His loss against Fedor is no mark against him, but he does still only have one win and it was a quick knockout against a guy who was 2-1.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you won't simply dismiss them all and name some superheavyweights who have shown talent in MMA. Mark Hunt (I think he lost enough weight to comfortably compete in the UFC if he wanted to, but in his PRIDE fights he was well over 265), Rob Broughton, Tom Erikson, Eric Pele, Ron Waterman, and Antonio Silva. That's all I can think of right now, but that's the gist of it. Not particularly dominant fighters. But they can definitely fight and they should be allowed to.

If you don't know about the UFC's high profile campaign to legalise MMA in NY then you should read more and educate yourself before writing comments like that.

I don't care if they have a high-profile campaign to legalize it in every single one of the 50 states. It has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I was criticizing the notion that a fighter shouldn't be allowed to fight at all because he's big and people are afraid of the reaction if something goes wrong.

Not that it will matter in Choi's case anyway. He seems to be focusing on kickboxing full time last I heard and since that's going well for him, he might not even return to MMA at all.

[Doublejab]

I agree, but what can you do? Add headgear and pads? Maybe a ball of some sort? Gaudy uniforms? If big fighters simply can't compete in U.S.-based organizations because of an "image" problem, well, I guess that's too bad for them. But it IS bad. Which was my point. If I remember correctly...

No, they can impose weight divisons:rolleyes:

[Oversoul]

No, they can impose weight divisons:rolleyes:

That, of course, has already been done. I don't know how my assertion that there should be no cap on the heavyweight division keeps getting associated with other weight classes. It has nothing to do with those weight classes. And it's not like this is something particularly novel or bizarre. PRIDE FC had lightweight (under 73 kg), welterweight (under 83 kg), middleweight (under 93 kg), and heavyweight (no limit).

[aaron_mag]

... if he loses I'll feel like I did when CC got KOed by Gonzaga :(

I know just how you felt! I'm still not over it!

;)

[callsignfuzzy]

Well, since the Choi-Fedor match is the subject of so much debate:

YouTube - Emelianenko Fedor vs Hong Man Choi

Fedor wasn't trying to pull guard, he was going for a throw and ended up in half guard. Twice.

Choi's sub defense pretty much does amount to, "fling arm around". The guy is a 2-fight rookie with no ground game. He didn't try to pass half-guard, didn't try to prevent Fedor from getting full guard, and did exactly the opposite of what one should do when defending the arm bar: he straightened up instead of stacking.

Most SHW's with any skill can drop to 265. Many have already, even Eric Pele, who's normally listed as 340lbs.
http://beat.bodoglife.com/sports/weigh-in-results-for-bodog-fight-russia-vs-usa-67949.html

Certainly it's got to be better for these guys, health-wise, if they get on the treadmill more and cut out the burgers?

That pretty much leaves Cesar "Giant" Silva, Bob Sapp, Hong Man Choi, Akebono, Zuluzinho, and Butterbean. They have a collective record of 27-25-2. Most of those wins were over much smaller opponents. So were a few of their losses. And many of their opponents had records of 0-1, 4-7, and the like. They ONLY thing they have going for them is size, not skill. They're freakshows, and that's all. Freakshows damage the legitimacy of the sport. I mean, look how much grief people are giving Lesnar, and the UFC for giving him a title shot. At least that guy has some legit credentials.

As for how the assertion that the weight difference between a 265lbs guy and a 400lbs guy is negligible... well, I'm going to ask to see a study that says that ;) I'm not saying that the raw strength difference is going to be massive, but if Fedor, who tossed Nogueira around like a child and even threw Olympic Judo silver medalist Ogawa, couldn't move someone the size of Choi, then that should be a good indicator at what the difficulties are when facing a legit SHW fighter. They carry more mass. They have greater punching potential, are much harder to move in the clinch and on the ground, and don't tell me you wouldn't notice the difference between being in the side control of a guy the size of Couture and a guy the size of Butterbean. When dealing with absolute weight, it's like a lightweight fighting a heavyweight. When dealing with proportional weight, it's still like having a LW fight a LHW. Sometimes, when the smaller fighter is better, they can win, but it's still an uphill battle. One of the things the athletic commissions tries to ensure is that a fight is as fair as possible. Having no cap for the HW division would lead to gross mismatches in size and power, which would run contrary to that principle.

Most of the tallented SWH's are around 300lbs, max. If Anderson Silva can cut 35lbs to fight, so can they. If they want a shot at wearing that big gold belt, then they'll have to. If it's not worth that much to them, they can go play in Japan, in the UK, in Russia, or in US promotions with a SHW division. But right now, if you want to get into the UFC, you have to be male and weigh between 155-265.

[Oversoul]

Fedor wasn't trying to pull guard, he was going for a throw and ended up in half guard. Twice.

Who said he was pulling guard? Actually, I used to think that maybe because he almost got the armbar the first time and did ultimately get it with the second attempt, maybe he was comfortable with the throw attempt doing what it did, and that was why he went for it again. Watching it closely, I see that this was probably not the case at all because on the first attempt it REALLY looks like Fedor tripped. I think I didn't see it before because the ref moved in front of the camera and his right foot, which is the one that would have tripped, is a bit obscured. If he didn't trip, he was forced down by Choi, who was driving in that direction and who obviously has a lot of power. But he definitely didn't throw Choi on top of himself. But it really looks like he tripped at about 0:19 on the video.

As for the second one, I was wrong in a different way. Choi was the one who threw Fedor there. I didn't remember it that way at all, but I'm watching it again and again and it's obvious now. Fedor drove Choi into the ropes while holding a bodylock and they rebounded off the ropes a lot, possibly more than Fedor expected, which might have been the problem for him there. But as they're doing that, he's bringing his right leg out to either sidestep (and possibly attempt to sweep Choi's foot) or circle counterclockwise, but they were moving backwards (for Fedor) too quickly and his leg came out at an awkward angle that off-balanced him and couldn't do anything for him. Meanwhile Choi capitalized on Fedor's being off-balanced. It's almost unmistakable.

Choi's sub defense pretty much does amount to, "fling arm around".

I watched for the arm fling and never saw it. Where did you see him fling his arm around? On the first armbar he was (successfully) trying to slip his elbow joint to the outside. I don't think it worked solely because he's huge either. I've escaped numerous armbar attempts from people my size or larger doing exactly what he did there. He may not be an expert in submission defense (and neither am I, for that matter). But that was clearly "slip elbow to the outside" and not "fling arm around." On the second one he didn't appear to do ANYTHING to escape because the armbar was sunk in so well. Man, that armbar was beautiful too. I wish I could do that...

The guy is a 2-fight rookie with no ground game. He didn't try to pass half-guard, didn't try to prevent Fedor from getting full guard, and did exactly the opposite of what one should do when defending the arm bar: he straightened up instead of stacking.

Fedor stacked himself to get the first armbar attempt and Choi's defense did work. He didn't straighten his arm on the second one. It looked like if he did anything it was desperately try to grab his own arm to pull it back in.

Most SHW's with any skill can drop to 265. Many have already, even Eric Pele, who's normally listed as 340lbs.
http://beat.bodoglife.com/sports/weigh-in-results-for-bodog-fight-russia-vs-usa-67949.html

I thought I said something like that, but if not, I do agree. Most of them can drop to 265. My claim was that they SHOULDN'T have to if they're more comfortable at a higher weight because there's no size at which they're magically too big to fight other people out of just being so big and dangerous. This is, if anything supported by the fact that there are so few guys that big who can compete with the smaller/normal heavyweights. It seems like the problems with my claim that there shouldn't be a cap are either "none of the guys who can't cut to 265 are any good anyway" AND "they have too much weight advantage." It can't be both. Those two contradict each other. Furthermore, the former isn't an actual justification for a cap and the latter is unsupported by what data we have.

Certainly it's got to be better for these guys, health-wise, if they get on the treadmill more and cut out the burgers?

It's probably better for their health to not fight at all, but that's not the point and I'm sure you know that.

They ONLY thing they have going for them is size, not skill. They're freakshows, and that's all. Freakshows damage the legitimacy of the sport. I mean, look how much grief people are giving Lesnar, and the UFC for giving him a title shot. At least that guy has some legit credentials.

But if they're such bad fighters, they won't make the cut in the UFC anyway.

As for how the assertion that the weight difference between a 265lbs guy and a 400lbs guy is negligible... well, I'm going to ask to see a study that says that ;)

Me too. Who made that assertion? I don't recall seeing it before...

I'm not saying that the raw strength difference is going to be massive, but if Fedor, who tossed Nogueira around like a child and even threw Olympic Judo silver medalist Ogawa, couldn't move someone the size of Choi, then that should be a good indicator at what the difficulties are when facing a legit SHW fighter.

He moved him quite a lot. He didn't put him on his back, but he sure did move him. I don't remember him putting Coleman on his back either though. It was usually Coleman who took him down. And yet Fedor still won like he always does.

They carry more mass. They have greater punching potential, are much harder to move in the clinch and on the ground, and don't tell me you wouldn't notice the difference between being in the side control of a guy the size of Couture and a guy the size of Butterbean. When dealing with absolute weight, it's like a lightweight fighting a heavyweight. When dealing with proportional weight, it's still like having a LW fight a LHW.

But if a LW fought a HW or LHW, we'd expect the the LW to lose. The opposite seems to happen quite often when it's a smallish heavyweight fighting a SHW.

Sometimes, when the smaller fighter is better, they can win, but it's still an uphill battle. One of the things the athletic commissions tries to ensure is that a fight is as fair as possible. Having no cap for the HW division would lead to gross mismatches in size and power, which would run contrary to that principle.

If it would lead to "gross mistmatches in size and power" why don't we see that in organizations without the cap? Why do the SHW fighters still lose so much?

[Doublejab]

To sum up:

a) Its better for the UFC's continuing campaign to legitimise the sport of MMA if they don't hold matches with huge weight differentials. Hence why they cap their HW division at 265lbs.

b) This cap makes very little difference in any case as most fighters who have fought at more than this are either A) capable of making 265, or B) are not very good fighters.

Personally I think its a far greater pity that theres no oppotunity for female fighters in the UFC rather than 300lb guys.

[Oversoul]

a) Its better for the UFC's continuing campaign to legitimise the sport of MMA if they don't hold matches with huge weight differentials. Hence why they cap their HW division at 265lbs.

b) This cap makes very little difference in any case as most fighters who have fought at more than this are either A) capable of making 265, or B) are not very good fighters.

This implies that the cap is, as I've been saying, bad. But you seem to be saying that it's a necessary evil. In some sense, I'm sure that's true. It's going to take a major change, not in the UFC, but in the athletic commissions really...

Personally I think its a far greater pity that theres no oppotunity for female fighters in the UFC rather than 300lb guys.

Oh, I'm with you there.

[Southpaw535]

out of interest has anyone seem female mma? they are mental!!

[Yohan]

out of interest has anyone seem female mma? they are mental!!

So what else is new? Have you seen female ANYTHING?

[Southpaw535]

hmm do i take this as an opportunity for a sexual pun?

[Yohan]

hmm do i take this as an opportunity for a sexual pun?

I can only hope.

[Southpaw535]

hmm hope seems all it'll be. i got nothing this time.

[Oversoul]

hmm hope seems all it'll be. i got nothing this time.

How anticlimactic.

[Doublejab]

out of interest has anyone seem female mma? they are mental!!

YouTube - MMA queen Satoko Shinashi

This one especially.

[old palden]

Wow.

[Southpaw535]

How anticlimactic.

that what she said