What to do? What to believe?

[MucKSW]

Hello everyone!
I have been doing martial arts for 1.5 years, and like most of the people, I want to get high kicks. My kicks are at normal height, but with kicks like roundhouse kick, i've got those Hip joint problems.

I've been on the internet, searching for information about how to get flexibility. At the moment, im doing everyday ''sidesplits'' to my maximum, and try to go further and further. Recently, I have found out that sidesplits are not the way to solve the problem in the hips. I have found some good stretches for that, but here comes the part that gave ???'s in my head.
I have read that static stretching can be bad. And im kind of worried, because im doing every 6 days a week sidesplits, for 2 months already, but were they for nothing? Did i just injure my knees?

I'm getting confused, some sites say that it's good, some not. My MA club uses static stretching(sidesplits, hurdle stretch). I've also found out that dynamic stretching is the best way to get those high kicks, so i will look for good dynamic stretches.

my question: Should i continue my ''every-6-days-sidesplits'' routine, and put dynamic stretching and hipjoint stretches into my routine?

And if the sidesplit thing is bad, are all the static stretches bad? If not, which one should we continue doing(which helps for high kicks) ?

Thanks a lot in advance!! :cool: Hope somebody can remove those questions in my head. I want to make a good routine to stick with, to gain high kicks. I am motivated enough to do it everyday, but im confusing about what's good and what's not.

Btw, i also have this dvd of Thomas kurz, called ''stretching scientifically''. He shows some good dynamic stretches, which i will/can use, but he also shows static stretches(including sidesplits). Like i said, i have read here on the forum(and other site's) that sidesplits can be bad for our knees etc...

[Knight_Errant]

Personally I think you should junk your current routine and replace it with a program of dynamic stretches and passive stretches, and maybe including isometric stretches. There's nothing wrong with side stretches, and static stretching isn't necessarily 'bad', it just needs to be done at a sensible point in your routine and for sane lengths of time. Dynamic stretching is the best way to get your kicks up there. The ones you should start doing immediately are leg swings. The word 'swing' is a misnomer though; rather you should lead with the foot. Then again, you know that, you've sensibly got the one man who is god of stretching, Thomas kurz's DVD. Well done. Superfoot should be along in a second.

[davefly76]

i was going to say the same thing, leg swings are the way forward (and backward, and sideways)...

[MucKSW]

About the leg swings: Is this a proper way to do them ?
YouTube - Leg Swings

It kind of looks like he is trowing it, which is not the way it should be done?
Do we just need to do them slowly?

[PlasmaShock]

www.elasticsteel.com

'Nuff said :ninja2:

[davefly76]

when i do them i don't let my leg swing past my standing leg

[Van Zandt]

If you follow Kurz's DVD religiously then you will see the results he promises.

Relaxed stretching is perfectly safe for increasing flexibility. I have used it for years and it has done me wonders. Take a look at my avatar if you want further proof.

You can do relaxed stretches six days a week as you are doing without any problems. You can even do them seven days a week if you wish. I do, and like I already pointed out, it helped me a great deal.

Don't pay attention to articles on the Internet. They are confusing and mostly full of horse radish. How do you feel when you do relaxed stretches? Do you feel good when you do them? If so, keep doing them. If you don't feel good, you're probably doing them wrong. Stretching should feel good. If you have pain in your knees, a steady course of strength training for the muscles that stabilise the knees will remedy that problem quite quickly.

If you are really worried about the health of your knee joints but still want to do relaxed stretches for side splits, then do the toes-up version. Maybe invest in a stretching machine too. Follow the link in my signature to read an article I wrote about the pro's and con's of using stretching machines.

Do dynamic stretches twice a day, at the start of your routine. Do them as Kurz demonstrates in the DVD.

Don't bother with Elastic Steel. Paul Zaichik's products won't help you as much as those of Kurz. Zaichik has very poor grammar and doesn't know how to properly structure workouts.

Go with the expert who has taught thousands of customers to do what he demonstrates in his books and DVDs - so far Kurz is the only one to do this.

Regards,

Dan

[Van Zandt]

Superfoot should be along in a second

LOL just noticed that :D

[Custom Volusia]

From my experience...as long as static stretches are done AFTER your body has warmed up, they are fine. Seems that most of the AUTHENTIC experts (not random people on the 'net that say they are experts) hold the same view.

[Van Zandt]

From my experience...as long as static stretches are done AFTER your body has warmed up, they are fine. Seems that most of the AUTHENTIC experts (not random people on the 'net that say they are experts) hold the same view.

No need to do a warm-up beforehand.

Kurz states in Stretching Scientifically that, "Relaxed stretches can be done at any time of day without a warm-up, even when you are tired."

Although warming up will increase your blood flow and can bring about very slightly quicker gains in range of motion in the same set. But doing them without one is perfectly fine and very safe.

Remember - when you do relaxed stretches (just another name for static stretches) you are not literally stretching the muscle fibers. You are waiting out the tension and then picking up the slack.

I actually find it easier to do relaxed stretches "cold". I want my muscles to relax. If I do a 5-10 minute warm-up I become more alert and aware, whereas I want the total opposite. I can't be relaxed if I'm sweating. The more relaxed state-of-mind I have, the quicker I find the tension disappears.

Regards,

Dan

[MucKSW]

@Superfoot,
I like to do the sidesplits toes forward, and I don't feel any pain in my knees. After every sidesplit session i can kick better then before the stretching, so it really does feel good for me, but i already read your article(which is very good!), but at point 4, it says: ''Performing side splits can place injure the hip and knee joints. Look at the image below of the “toes forward” side split''
You meant it's bad when you do your toes forward?

Anyway, let me make a begin:

Hipjoint strethcing, butterfly stretch & variations (5min)
Dynamic strechting, leg swings: front, side, back (5 min)
Sidesplit session (5 min)
Frontsplit session, right & left (5 min)

you think that's a good routine to keep up with?

[Van Zandt]

You meant it's bad when you do your toes forward?

Yes - the toes-forward side split can be bad [for your knees] if your knees are too weak to support your body weight. If you are able to squat ten times with more than your own bodyweight, then they should be strong enough. If you can do this but continue to get pain in the knees, do isometric stretches and focus the tensions on those spots of pain. Just focus on strength gains; don't increase the stretch until the pain has gone. Most knee pain (in side splits) is caused by excessive strain on the knee ligaments because the muscles aren't strong enough to adequately take up the load.

Hipjoint strethcing, butterfly stretch & variations (5min)
Dynamic strechting, leg swings: front, side, back (5 min)
Sidesplit session (5 min)
Frontsplit session, right & left (5 min)

Re-arrange this workout as follows:

1. Dynamic stretching
2. Hipjoint stretching / butterfly stretch (as pre-stretches to the splits)
3. Front split
4. Side split

When you do dynamic stretches, do 12 repetitions per set and do enough sets until you reach your limit (for that stage of training). Start slow and low and gradually build up the height and velocity. In the intial stages you will probably go no higher than waist height, but a few weeks down the line and you will be able to kick as high "cold" as you do now with a decent warm-up.

Regards,

Dan

[MucKSW]

Yes - the toes-forward side split can be bad [for your knees] if your knees are too weak to support your body weight. If you are able to squat ten times with more than your own bodyweight, then they should be strong enough. If you can do this but continue to get pain in the knees, do isometric stretches and focus the tensions on those spots of pain


Till now I didn't feel any kind of pain in my knees, but I guess i will do them pointed out.


1. Dynamic stretching
2. Hipjoint stretching / butterfly stretch (as pre-stretches to the splits)
3. Front split
4. Side split


I have got a question about dynamic stretching: Are 3 sets x 12 reps enough for one leg?
And the video i posted back in this topic: Is that a proper way to do it? It looked like he throws his legs, or is that just the proper way?

(i appreciate your help ;) )

[Van Zandt]

If 3 sets of 12 gets you to your daily limit, then its enough ;)

I would do enough sets until you feel like you're not going any further. A decrease in height is a sign to stop.

The gentleman in the video is doing a ballistic stretch - avoid this type of movement.

As Knight Errant pointed out, lead the foot. Or lift it. Don't swing it wildly. Make sure you pause at the bottom of the movement. Don't let your foot swing past your standing leg on the way down. It should be a clean, controlled movement. Place a hand out for a target if you wish. You can also hold on to a support to help with balance. Again, Kurz's DVD is your best bet for a visual aid.

Just post again if you need any more info.

Regards,

Dan

[MucKSW]

Ok. I picked up a vid of youtube, which only shows a warming up and leg rises( Starts at 2:18). So that's the proper way(srry, just want to be 100 % sure :P)
YouTube - Thomas Kurz - Stretching Scientifically

One more question: As you can see at the side rises, Kurz keeps the supporting feet straight forward. When i point my feets straight forward, and f.e. i rise my right leg as high as i can, to the side, my supporting feet turns 90 degree outside. I guess this is NOT the proper way?
When i keep my feet straight, and do this side rise, i really feel it in my hips & back! ;O

Also, when performing any kind of leg rises, i should keep my feets on the ground( and not going on my toes) , and extend my supporting leg?

Im actually shocked, to see how low my side rises actually are. I was always turning out my feet 90 degrees, and that way i can do them high. But think that was the wrong way

The fact that i can't rise my side high: Is that due to my hipjoints?

[Van Zandt]

Wow. That is an old (and in a way, slightly pornographic) video lol.

Yes. That is the correct way to do them. It is ok to turn your supporting foot to the outside. Kurz makes this point in the latest edition of Stretching Scientifically. Remember that in this video Kurz was already uber flexible and so had no problem keeping his supporting foot pointing forwards. You will be able to do this too, in time.

But yes, keep your supporting foot flat. If you go on your toes, you're going too high and too fast.

It is best to do leg raises low and right than high and wrong. Stops you cheating yourself and causing potential injuries.

Make sure you rotate your pelvis when doing leg raises. This will stop any pain in the top of your hips.

Regards,

Dan

[MucKSW]

Wow. That is an old (and in a way, slightly pornographic) video lol.

haha yea that's true ;P

I will start my new routine right now.
Thanks a million!!!

[Arnoo]

Yes - the toes-forward side split can be bad [for your knees] if your knees are too weak to support your body weight. If you are able to squat ten times with more than your own bodyweight, then they should be strong enough. If you can do this but continue to get pain in the knees, do isometric stretches and focus the tensions on those spots of pain. Just focus on strength gains; don't increase the stretch until the pain has gone. Most knee pain (in side splits) is caused by excessive strain on the knee ligaments because the muscles aren't strong enough to adequately take up the load.


how much extra weight are you talking about and what i'm getting from it is that its better to do the split with toe's forward if you bent over forward (lay your chest on the ground)

[Van Zandt]

how much extra weight are you talking about and what i'm getting from it is that its better to do the split with toe's forward if you bent over forward (lay your chest on the ground)

If you weigh 160 lbs, then the absolute minimum you want to be able to squat with (for ten repetition) is 160 lbs. Kurz states that, generally, you should be able to squat ten times with twice your body weight (i.e. 320 lbs for a 160 lbs person) before you are ready to do full side splits.

Strength is an important factor to consider when increasing flexibility.

Arnoo, it is possible to lay your chest on the ground in both the toes-forward and the toes-up side split. In the toes-forward version you are stretching mostly your low back muscles; in the toes-up version you are also bringing your hamstrings into play.

Regards,

Dan

[MucKSW]

Superfoot, why do some site's say that static stretching weakens our muscles?

And on the dvd of Kurz, when coming to the sidesplit/frontsplit section, he says this:

Tense your leg muscles, then relax, then spread the legs again. When you can't stretch anymore, tense them again, and relax. Keep repeating this cycle of reputation, till you really can't stretch anymore. At this point, tense the muscles for 30 sec.

I'm doing that to, and it feels like it's stretching it better/faster, but for what is that exactly? That tense and relax thing?

[Van Zandt]

Superfoot, why do some site's say that static stretching weakens our muscles?

I think "weaken" is a misnomer, and a lot of sites are misinformed. For several seconds or even minutes following any kind of static stretch, you cannot display your top agility or maximal speed because your muscles are less responsive to stimulation - your coordination is off. Static stretches reduce the force production of the stretched muscles. This was shown by subjecting calf muscles to several 30-second stretches and measuring their force afterward (Rosenbaum and Hennig 1995). Maximal force production is impaired for several minutes after strenuous static stretching (Kokkonen, Nelson, and Cornwell 1998). If you try to make a fast, dynamic movement immediately after a static stretch, you may injure the stretched muscle. I think this is what those sites are trying to explain. Kurz explains this in further detail in Stretching Scientifically.

I'm doing that to, and it feels like it's stretching it better/faster, but for what is that exactly? That tense and relax thing?

This tense-relax cycle is what Kurz calls "isometric stretching". You use a combination of isometric tensions and relaxed stretches to increase flexibility. It works on two basic principles: 1) overriding the stretch reflex by inducing a post-contractive stretch relfex depression, thereby enabling you to stretch further (your muscles cannot resist to their maximum immediately following an isometric tension), and 2) developing strength in the stretched out position. Generally speaking, the stronger a muscle is, the less it needs to tense to support a given load (like your body weight). In essence, it feels more comfortable in the stretched-out position.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Dan

[newy085]

Wow, it amazes me how much you know on this topic, it's like an encyclopdia of strectching at our fingertips. You are a true asset to this forum.

Just a little tip I have picked up along the way. I have found that breathing out really helps me to relax into a stretch, especially stretches that allow me to use my bodyweight to increase the stretch.

[Van Zandt]

Wow, it amazes me how much you know on this topic, it's like an encyclopdia of strectching at our fingertips. You are a true asset to this forum.

Just a little tip I have picked up along the way. I have found that breathing out really helps me to relax into a stretch, especially stretches that allow me to use my bodyweight to increase the stretch.

Newy085, thanks man. The breathing you describe is similar to the Contrast Breathing technique outlined in Relax into Stretch by Pavel Tsatsouline. Basic guidelines are as follows:

- When leaning forward, exhale when increasing; when leaning back, inhale when increasing

- Breath as normal as possible when holding the stretch (some trainers will advise long, deep breaths when holding a stretch; this can increase the tension in your muscles, which is the opposite of what you're trying to achieve)

You may want to try this breathing technique to bring about further gains in your stretch: inhale deeply, clench you fists and scrunch up your face, hold it for a second, then exhale and relax your face and hands. You should find your body relaxes more this way.

Regards,

Dan

[MucKSW]

Super Foot, what do you think of PNF stretching? I heard and readed that it's the fastest way to gain flexibility.
That's also with tensing the muscles etc. Is it the same thing that Kurz does?

[Van Zandt]

The method of PNF stretching for increasing flexibility is as follows:

1. Stretch as far as possible
2. Hold the position (without tensing) for 20 seconds
3. Tense the target muscles
4. Relax and immediately increase the stretch
5. Hold the new position (without tensing) for 20 seconds
6. Repeat to maximum

PNF stretching was developed in the mid-20th century as a rehabilitation exercise to help victims of stroke and paralysis, among other ailments. Kurz describes three methods of performing isometric stretches, and PNF is one of them. Pretty much the same thing only with very minor differences (read Stretching Scientifcally for a better explanation from Kurz).

Studies by Holt and Travis showed isometric/PNF stretches to be 267% more effective than traditional static/relaxed stretches.

Regards,

Dan

[MucKSW]

I was wondering, when we stretch f.e. for the split, we reduce the reflex-muscle thing, but what happens when we try to stretch our Hip joints? I've tried to do this tense-relax thing when stretching the hip joints, but it didn't work so well.

[Van Zandt]

MucKSW,

The techniques described above should work for all muscle groups. Remember there are a lot of muscles that make up the hip joint, so you will need to be a bit more specific. Are you able to describe, or even post a photo, of the stretch you are trying to accomplish? Perhaps you alignment and/or posture is wrong.

[MucKSW]

Well, for example with a butterfly stretch. My knees are high up, im really unflexibel when it come's to that.
Picture:
http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=butterflykn5.png

As you can see, my knees are high up. This is probably why I can't throw proper roundhouse kicks. I know a roundhouse kick is not only about the knee but it's always good to pull your knee up. I can't even keep it on my belly height

It's different then a sidesplit stretch. With the sidesplit stretch I always manage to come further and further. With the butterfly stretch the pressure is way more. It kind of feels like I can't go any further that day. It's like im stuck there.

[Van Zandt]

If you were trying to squeeze into that hole in the wall the no wonder your knees are up high! Just kidding ;)

Try this routine when doing the butterfly stretch:

1. Sit upright and pull your knees to the floor with the strength of your legs along. When you've pulled them as low to the floor as you can, hold for 10-30 seconds.
2. Keeping your knees where they were in #1, push down on your thighs with your elbows and hold again for a count of 10-30 seconds.
3. Keeping your knees where they were in #2, lean your chest (not your head, or else you will round you back) toward you feet as far as possible and hold for another count of 10-30 seconds.

Another way to do this stretch is simply to sit in the position (back straight) and just hold it. Don't pull or push your legs down. Best with your back to a wall. Do it while watching TV. Eventually, when you have waited out the tension, your legs will gradually lower by themselves.

Remember - this is a very mild stretch for the adductors. I personally don't do it all that often because there are more effective stretches. Besides, even though it can be good to do basic stretches before your splits, you really only need one stretch per muscle group. I find the front split and side split enough to keep up a relatively high level of (passive) flexibility.

Use this as a precursor to your side splits (or other adductor stretches), but don't judge your overall flexibility on one stretch. I know people who can do full splits but are the same as you in the butterfly stretch - I'm one of them! And don't forget that even if you have the ability to put your knees to the floor, or do full splits, you still might not be able to do high roundhouse kicks. Two different types of flexibility so two different types of stretching are required.

Also the height of the knees from the floor is the biggest misconception with the butterfly stretch. It is more important to get your heels closer to your groin. You have good adducter flexibility if you can get your heels 5-10 centimeters from your groin. Being able to lower your knees to the floor is a display of flexibility in the iliopsoas group (hip flexors).

Regards,

Dan

[MucKSW]

wow, thanks a lot for that. I will try out that routine of yours!

And I don't do the butterfly stretch for the sidesplit, just for my hip joints when pulling up the knee, for example when doing roundhouse kick. I asked my instructor why they sucked, and he said I wasn't really able to keep my knees high. I asked him a good stretch to solve this and he said that the butterfly stretch is a good one for this.


Remember - this is a very mild stretch for the adductors. I personally don't do it all that often because there are more effective stretches. Besides, even though it can be good to do basic stretches before your splits, you really only need one stretch per muscle group. I find the front split and side split enough to keep up a relatively high level of (passive) flexibility.


Which are effectiver then?

----------------------------

This is my actual problem:
http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=roundhousejo7.png

Ye i want my knee higher up. This is the maximum of my knee coming up. And when i try to throw a nice, slow roundhouse kick, from that position, it actually goes lower.
And I tought the butterfly stretch could be a solve for that?

[Van Zandt]

just for my hip joints when pulling up the knee

So you wish to increase the height of your knee in the chamber position? Then lift your knee as high as possible as though preparing to kick, place your hand over or under your knee (whichever is easier) and lift your knee up higher. When you've gone as high as you can, hold for 10-30 seconds. You can also do this stretch with a partner.

[MucKSW]

I will work on that.

But now I came up with an other question:
When I hold my knee up, in the roundhouse position (like in the last picture), and I kick out really slow, f.e. with kicking with the right, I feel this pain in my right hip joint, somewhere around my right ass ;p
Which muscle is that, and what stretch is the best to solve that?

[Van Zandt]

Your problem is more of a strength one than a stretching one.

You have three muscles in that area: gluteus maximus, gluteus medius and gluteus minimus.

The pain you are feeling is your body telling you that these muscles are not strong enough to support the weight of your leg in the roundhouse position.

You should strengthen them using the following exercises:

1. Squats.
2. Deadlifts.
3. Leg raises to the side.

Also practice extending your leg out slowly and holding it there for as long as possible.

[MucKSW]

Thanks a lot, I heard that before, but this is a good confirm!

So these exercises are also important for kicks?

[Van Zandt]

So these exercises are also important for kicks?

Yes, conditioning is very important for kicking. Stretching alone is not enough.

[MucKSW]

1. Squats.
2. Deadlifts.
3. Leg raises to the side.


Btw, what are the best sets & reps for these exercises?

[Van Zandt]

Generally speaking three to five sets of six to ten repetitions for squats and deadlifts will suffice. Three to five sets of ten to fifteen repetitions for leg raises to the side. These amounts may differ for other people.

[MucKSW]

Ok, thanks a lot again, gonna work on that Strength.

If I want to do these strength training and stretching to gether, should I first start with the stretching, or first strength training?

[Van Zandt]

Start with strength first, then stretching. Don't do any type of static stretching (relaxed or isometric) before dynamic or strength exercises in your workout. Thomas Kurz explains why in his book Stretching Scientifically which is available from www.stadion.com

[MucKSW]

I recently heard that squats may shorten our leg muscles. Has this effect on the flexibility?

[kez56]

I recently heard that squats may shorten our leg muscles. Has this effect on the flexibility?

No. Look at Olympic weightlifters. They perform squats in almost every training session as it is the basis of their two lifts. They have enormous leg size but are also very flexible.

[MucKSW]

Ye you got a point there. Because I heard it only shortens the front upper-leg muscles, which probably aren't important for flexibility.

[wires]

Hello everyone!
I have been doing martial arts for 1.5 years, and like most of the people, I want to get high kicks. My kicks are at normal height, but with kicks like roundhouse kick, i've got those Hip joint problems.

I've been on the internet, searching for information about how to get flexibility. At the moment, im doing everyday ''sidesplits'' to my maximum, and try to go further and further. Recently, I have found out that sidesplits are not the way to solve the problem in the hips. I have found some good stretches for that, but here comes the part that gave ???'s in my head.
I have read that static stretching can be bad. And im kind of worried, because im doing every 6 days a week sidesplits, for 2 months already, but were they for nothing? Did i just injure my knees?

I'm getting confused, some sites say that it's good, some not. My MA club uses static stretching(sidesplits, hurdle stretch). I've also found out that dynamic stretching is the best way to get those high kicks, so i will look for good dynamic stretches.

my question: Should i continue my ''every-6-days-sidesplits'' routine, and put dynamic stretching and hipjoint stretches into my routine?

And if the sidesplit thing is bad, are all the static stretches bad? If not, which one should we continue doing(which helps for high kicks) ?

Thanks a lot in advance!! :cool: Hope somebody can remove those questions in my head. I want to make a good routine to stick with, to gain high kicks. I am motivated enough to do it everyday, but im confusing about what's good and what's not.

Btw, i also have this dvd of Thomas kurz, called ''stretching scientifically''. He shows some good dynamic stretches, which i will/can use, but he also shows static stretches(including sidesplits). Like i said, i have read here on the forum(and other site's) that sidesplits can be bad for our knees etc...

Fighters want yoga. Yoga is the best thing going - preferably Astanga Yoga.

[Van Zandt]

MucKSW,

Squats can actually improve your range of motion because they are performed through a full range of motion.

Wires,

Yoga will only be beneficial to a fighter if a specific yoga discipline includes exercises specific to the fighter's goals. If the fighter just wants to kick high, then all they need is dynamic stretches and a few static stretches. Most yoga disciplines do not include dynamic stretches or the correct way of doing them.

Regards,

Dan

[MucKSW]

Squats can actually improve your range of motion because they are performed through a full range of motion.


Really? Glad to hear that. But what's the principe behind sprinters or footballplayers get unflexibel legs (because of the little explosiveness of the legs). That's ******** too?

[Van Zandt]

Any strength exercise worked through a full range of motion will contribute to gains in flexibility. If you exercise through a narrow range of motion (e.g. like basketball players or cyclists) you will make the muscles stronger, but not in their full range of motion. It is this (strengthening in a short range of motion) that can cause a reduction in flexibility. So as long as you are working strength exercises through a full range of motion, and supplementing the exercises with stretches, you will be fine.

[MucKSW]

I see, thanks a lot again :)

Btw, do you have any knowledge by stretching our lowerback? I'm also working to have a flexibel lowerback, since im doing a sport called tricking, which includes flips. A flexibel back can help a lot.
I have been doing the Cobra stretch, seen at this site http://www.howtostretch.com/backstretches.html

But what actually happens when stretching our back? Because it has nothing to do with tension as in our legs, right? We stretch our spine?

In general, does it take long to stretch our lower back?

Thanks in advance.

[Van Zandt]

For tricking you will need strength more than flexibility in your back. Twisting at an awkward angle is a common trait in a lot of trickers, and as a result back pain is common. By far the most common cause of back pain is muscle strain. The back muscles can usually heal themselves within a couple of weeks, but the pain can be intense and debilitating. Other common injuries to the back (in tricking) are disc problems, such as limbar disc herniation (imagine squashing a jam donut with a brick... yeah, that's your spine!) and even fractures, such as an osteoporotic fracture.

So I would advise you definitely focus more on strength than stretches if you're into tricking.

I would follow the guidelines listed by howtostretch.com.

You are right, there is a difference when it comes to stretching your back and stretching your legs. When you stretch your legs you can hold the stretch all day long. When you stretch the back (e.g. standing toe touches) you do not want to hold a stretch any longer than 30 seconds. This is because the spine is held together by sheets of thin ligaments, and stretching these can cause your spine to become loose. Something you most definitely do not want!

But remember to build up that strength in your back, and balance it out by building strength in your abdominals and obliques too.

Regards,

Dan

[MucKSW]

So I should let the back stretching aside, and concentrate on the strenght in my back?

Do you know some good exercises for my back, which will help me in tricking?

[TheAngle]

If you follow Kurz's DVD religiously then you will see the results he promises.

Relaxed stretching is perfectly safe for increasing flexibility. I have used it for years and it has done me wonders. Take a look at my avatar if you want further proof.

You can do relaxed stretches six days a week as you are doing without any problems. You can even do them seven days a week if you wish. I do, and like I already pointed out, it helped me a great deal.

Don't pay attention to articles on the Internet. They are confusing and mostly full of horse radish. How do you feel when you do relaxed stretches? Do you feel good when you do them? If so, keep doing them. If you don't feel good, you're probably doing them wrong. Stretching should feel good. If you have pain in your knees, a steady course of strength training for the muscles that stabilise the knees will remedy that problem quite quickly.

If you are really worried about the health of your knee joints but still want to do relaxed stretches for side splits, then do the toes-up version. Maybe invest in a stretching machine too. Follow the link in my signature to read an article I wrote about the pro's and con's of using stretching machines.

Do dynamic stretches twice a day, at the start of your routine. Do them as Kurz demonstrates in the DVD.

Don't bother with Elastic Steel. Paul Zaichik's products won't help you as much as those of Kurz. Zaichik has very poor grammar and doesn't know how to properly structure workouts.

Go with the expert who has taught thousands of customers to do what he demonstrates in his books and DVDs - so far Kurz is the only one to do this.

Regards,

Dan

I was reading this Post and have to disagree with you Superfoot. Zaichik knows what he is talking about. He puts videos on youtube from time to to time. I suggest you look at them. They are very helpful. I am also taking his flexibility seminar and it covers way more then Stretching Scientifically.
I am very surprised to hear someone say something negative about him, that's why I have to reply.
Have you tried any of his streching dvds or watched his youtube video?
He does deserve the credit when it come to being informed about flexibility.

Peace

[Van Zandt]

Do you know some good exercises for my back, which will help me in tricking?

Go to www.trickstutorials.com for all your tricking pleasures :D

I was reading this Post and have to disagree with you Superfoot. Zaichik knows what he is talking about. He puts videos on youtube from time to to time. I suggest you look at them. They are very helpful. I am also taking his flexibility seminar and it covers way more then Stretching Scientifically.
I am very surprised to hear someone say something negative about him, that's why I have to reply.
Have you tried any of his streching dvds or watched his youtube video?
He does deserve the credit when it come to being informed about flexibility.

Zaichik is very flexible. I won't take that away from him. But the quality of his products is very poor (from a grammatical and even spelling point-of-view). He often contradicts himself in his writing and his material leaves too many questions unanswered. In my opinion he is nothing more than a flexible guy telling others how to do exercises that may not be at all benficial.

Now let's compare him to Kurz. English is not Kurz's first language (he is Polish) yet he writes with perfect grammar and spelling - an indication that he is as educated as he claims to be. His products are not only backed by sound scientific evidence, but also with unsolicited customer testimonials. Just look at his website (www.standion.com) compared to that of Zaichik (www.elasticsteel.com) - Kurz has dozens of photographs from customers who have achieved maximal flexibility through the Stretching Scientifically method, yet where are the photo testimonials from Zaichik's customers? I will believe in Zaichik's method when his customers demonstrate the same results as those of Kurz. And this is not even taking into consideration the research I have done on both methods (I have bought and tried the books and DVDs from both individuals), and I have found Kurz's method to be the most effective (not only for myself, but for my students too).

In my opinion, Zaichik has done nothing more than attempt to repackage what Kurz has taught all along. And Zaichik does it in a very poor way, too.

Kurz has videos on Youtube too. He also has an excellent column on stadion.com in which he discusses the different types of flexibility and their associated stretching methods, the correct sequence of efforts, optimal training loads, micro- and macro-cycles, rest and recovery, injuries, and lots more.

If you have found Zaichik's material useful then all the power to you friend.

Kind regards,

Dan

[TheAngle]

Do you

Go to www.trickstutorials.com for all your tricking pleasures :D



Zaichik is very flexible. I won't take that away from him. But the quality of his products is very poor (from a grammatical and even spelling point-of-view). He often contradicts himself in his writing and his material leaves too many questions unanswered. In my opinion he is nothing more than a flexible guy telling others how to do exercises that may not be at all benficial.

Now let's compare him to Kurz. English is not Kurz's first language (he is Polish) yet he writes with perfect grammar and spelling - an indication that he is as educated as he claims to be. His products are not only backed by sound scientific evidence, but also with unsolicited customer testimonials. Just look at his website (www.standion.com) compared to that of Zaichik (www.elasticsteel.com) - Kurz has dozens of photographs from customers who have achieved maximal flexibility through the Stretching Scientifically method, yet where are the photo testimonials from Zaichik's customers? I will believe in Zaichik's method when his customers demonstrate the same results as those of Kurz. And this is not even taking into consideration the research I have done on both methods (I have bought and tried the books and DVDs from both individuals), and I have found Kurz's method to be the most effective (not only for myself, but for my students too).

In my opinion, Zaichik has done nothing more than attempt to repackage what Kurz has taught all along. And Zaichik does it in a very poor way, too.

Kurz has videos on Youtube too. He also has an excellent column on stadion.com in which he discusses the different types of flexibility and their associated stretching methods, the correct sequence of efforts, optimal training loads, micro- and macro-cycles, rest and recovery, injuries, and lots more.

If you have found Zaichik's material useful then all the power to you friend.

Kind regards,

Dan

Dan,

Let's see. There were a few gramatical errors in Zaichik's book. I won't argue that. He is very flexible himself, that is true. I got Kurz book in early 90's. Soon after that I got his VHS. They did not work for me. Few years ago I got Zaichik's material, which did help me to get flexible and get a all three splits. (Zaichik recognizes 3 splits)

I really don't think that Zaichik is repackaging Kurz material, because he he gives so much unique information in his seminar and it is very different from what I got out of Kurzs book and VHS. (Yes, back then it was VHS lol )

Don't get me wrong Kurz method obviously works for many people. All those people sitting in splits on his webpage are a proof. I don't argue against that. His method did not work for me. I needed more then what I got from Kurz material.

Zaichi's emphasis on massage, conditioning, split specific warm up, etc. helped me to get splits. Kurz doesn't talk about those. Obviously many people got their splits without them. Who knows if they would have done even better if they used Zaichik's material in addition to Kurz's.

Anyway. I am not trying to say one system is better then other. It's just that one worked for me and one did not.

[Arnoo]

On what do Kurz and Zaichik differ ?

[Van Zandt]

Kurz and Ziachik pretty much provide the same information, only Kurz backs it up with hard scientific research and photographic testimonials from his customers.

Oh, and he can spell.

;)

[TheAngle]

On what do Kurz and Zaichik differ ?

I can compare the Kurz VHS and Zaichik's DVD on splits.

Conditioning Kurz with Weight Zaichik Bodyweight and Elastics
Posture$ breathing Kurz Non Zaichik Does that
Target specific muscles Kurz. With cables Zaichik Bodyweight and Elastic
Massages Kurz Non Zaichik. Shows them
Split specific warm Kurz non Zaichik big section on it
Strech Progression Kurz non Many streches for all groups
Spelling lol Good Mistakes

So if I want to learn to spell I'll buy Kurz stuff, If I want flexibility I'll buy Zaichik's stuff.

[Van Zandt]

I can compare the Kurz VHS and Zaichik's DVD on splits.

Conditioning Kurz with Weight Zaichik Bodyweight and Elastics
Posture$ breathing Kurz Non Zaichik Does that
Target specific muscles Kurz. With cables Zaichik Bodyweight and Elastic
Massages Kurz Non Zaichik. Shows them
Split specific warm Kurz non Zaichik big section on it
Strech Progression Kurz non Many streches for all groups
Spelling lol Good Mistakes

So if I want to learn to spell I'll buy Kurz stuff, If I want flexibility I'll buy Zaichik's stuff.

Kurz advocates becoming proficient with bodyweight before adding external resistance. Example: adductor flies. Using freeweight over resistance bands ("elastics") is that you can add more resistance with freeweights once your body has adapated, whereas resistance bands have a limit on their resistance.

Kurz emphasises correst alignment of the joints in all positions ("posture") as well as correct methods for breathing when stretching. He states this clearly on the DVD as well as in his book.

Target specific muscles Kurz. With cables Zaichik Bodyweight and Elastic
Massages Kurz Non Zaichik. Shows them

Couldn't grasp the essence of what you were saying there.

A 'split specific' warm-up is highlighted by Kurz when he explains the correct sequence of efforts in a workout, and when he demonstrates stretches leading to the front and side split.

By the way, there are only two types of split: the side and the front. The other types (toes-up and toes-forward side split, and left or right leg forward front split) are just variations.

Kurz emphasises stretch progression quite a lot in his materials (books and DVDs), i.e. stretches leading up to the splits and his notes on limitations.

Additional pro's/con's:

Kurz explains the science behind stretching. Zaichik doesn't.
Kurz provides example routines for various sports disciplines. Zaichik doesn't.
Kurz provides an immense section on typical Q's and A's (in the book). Zaichik doesn't.
Kurz cites references of well known and proven scientific studies. Zaichik doesn't.

Kurz has been teaching this stuff for 20+ years. Zaichik (and Tsatsouline) have been around 5, maybe 10 years tops. Look more carefully and you will see everything Zaichik et al teach was already being taught by Kurz.

If you want repackaged flexibility training, buy Zaichik. If you want to learn to spell AND have phenomenal flexibility, buy the proven and original Kurz material.

[TheAngle]

Kurz advocates becoming proficient with bodyweight before adding external resistance. Example: adductor flies. Using freeweight over resistance bands ("elastics") is that you can add more resistance with freeweights once your body has adapated, whereas resistance bands have a limit on their resistance.

Kurz emphasises correst alignment of the joints in all positions ("posture") as well as correct methods for breathing when stretching. He states this clearly on the DVD as well as in his book.



Couldn't grasp the essence of what you were saying there.

A 'split specific' warm-up is highlighted by Kurz when he explains the correct sequence of efforts in a workout, and when he demonstrates stretches leading to the front and side split.

By the way, there are only two types of split: the side and the front. The other types (toes-up and toes-forward side split, and left or right leg forward front split) are just variations.

Kurz emphasises stretch progression quite a lot in his materials (books and DVDs), i.e. stretches leading up to the splits and his notes on limitations.

Additional pro's/con's:

Kurz explains the science behind stretching. Zaichik doesn't.
Kurz provides example routines for various sports disciplines. Zaichik doesn't.
Kurz provides an immense section on typical Q's and A's (in the book). Zaichik doesn't.
Kurz cites references of well known and proven scientific studies. Zaichik doesn't.

Kurz has been teaching this stuff for 20+ years. Zaichik (and Tsatsouline) have been around 5, maybe 10 years tops. Look more carefully and you will see everything Zaichik et al teach was already being taught by Kurz.

If you want repackaged flexibility training, buy Zaichik. If you want to learn to spell AND have phenomenal flexibility, buy the proven and original Kurz material.


That's a lot of stuff. I just came home from work.

But, here goes.

Kurz explain in his book, not in his DVD. Zaichik explains the basics in his book as well. He does explain a lot in his youtube videos. Do you want to read about stretching or learn how to stretch? Kurz put a lot of ink in there, probably to fill the pages.
Kurz can write? I am not sure about that. It seems like he just got a good editor. That is not the point though, it's about flexibility.
I will give you one thing. Zaichik doesn't go into various sports in his book, Kurz does. If you want the splits, then it doesn't matter which sport you want them for. Again more ink to fill the pages.

Kurz have been around for 20 years and Zaichik probably 5 or maybe less. So does that mean old is better then new? Why have airplanes, we can ride horse. ;)

Do you have Zaichiks splits DVD? Yes or no?

Zaichik has a very specific split specific warm up. Which gave me a great leap into a side split. If Kurz had that I probably would not get Zaichik's material.
Zaichik covers which muscle should be stretches in correlation to the other. Kurz does not.
Zaichik covers pressure point massage and oil massage. Another part of his DVD which worked great for me when I used it. I don't use it now.

What do you have to say now? :)

[Van Zandt]

Kurz explain in his book, not in his DVD.

Anyone I know who has used Kurz's DVD agrees that he explains the same concepts and principles as he does in his book. Only he explains them in more detail in the book. But they are still there in the DVD.

Do you want to read about stretching or learn how to stretch?

Turns out you can only read about stretching from Kurz because Zaichik's messages are all jumbled up. ;) But seriously though, Kurz explains the what/how/why/when of stretching in greater detail than Zaichik does, and this is a serious advantage over the Elastic Steel method.

Kurz can write? I am not sure about that. It seems like he just got a good editor.

So he got an editor to reply to all the e-mails I've sent him? Not sure about that. Plus if you see him in person at a seminar you will discover he is a very articulate and educated individual, one capable of writing in the context found in Stretching Scientifically.

That is not the point though, it's about flexibility

His books and DVDs are all about flexibility. They are presented in a clear and professional manner to get the message across clearly. Zaichik's are quite messed up, especially the books.

Zaichik doesn't go into various sports in his book, Kurz does.

Perhaps an indication of who is the more knowledgeable individual?

If you want the splits, then it doesn't matter which sport you want them for.

If you knew anything about proper physiology of exercise you would know this is not true. Kurz talks about which stretches are required for various sports, which is important when considering optimal performance and injury prevention. If you're a kicker and all you want to do is kick high, then you don't need the split. You just need the dynamic stretches Kurz describes. If you're a gymnast then you would obviously focus on the split specific training methods. The correct sequence of efforts is a major theme through Kurz's material and is one of the main reasons why so many athletes fail to achieve their full potential. Zaichik doesn't even come close to covering this aspect in the same detail as Kurz. Zaichik's is more of a 'stretch and hope' concept, like I said, he's a very flexible dude who is just teaching a series of stretches that may not actually be beneficial for a lot of people. I am happy Zaichik's methods worked for you; but more people say that Kurz's method worked for them which counts for something.

Kurz have been around for 20 years and Zaichik probably 5 or maybe less. So does that mean old is better then new? Why have airplanes, we can ride horse.

I don't think you understood what I wrote. No it does not mean the old is better than the new. It means the new is the same as the old, just with a different (and rather shoddy) packaging. To use your analogy of horses and airplanes: Kurz introduced the airplane to the world of stretching two decades ago, whereas Zaichik is just a different airline. Kurz would be the Beoing 777 and Zaichik would be a paper airplane - a very cheap and ineffective imitation.

Do you have Zaichiks splits DVD? Yes or no?

Yes, I did. I tried it for a while. Like I said, nothing new. I was pleased when I got my refund.

Zaichik covers which muscle should be stretches in correlation to the other. Kurz does not.

Agonists, antagonists and synergists. It's all in Kurz's material. If you don't understand this terminology then read/watch Kurz's material again, or google it.

Zaichik covers pressure point massage and oil massage.

Kurz doesn't cover this because it isn't necessary for developing flexibility. Sounds like, what did you call it? Oh yes, "a lot of ink to fill out the pages".

I think I've said enough. I do quite enjoy our debates :D

[MucKSW]

How about Pavel Tsatsouline :D ?

[straightline]

I know you are just clowning around. You can possibly think that Thomas Kurz is more informed then Paul Zaichik about flexibility. That is just absurd.
Mr. Kurz is an old man who still selling the same things thing he sold in the 80's through Black Belt Magazine ads. Mr. Zaichik looks and talk like Adam Sandler, but when it comes to stretching he is top notch.
I know for a fact that you are not familiar with his work and methods. IF you were, you would not say what you say.

And you the other guy. Don't bother with this debate. It's stupid. Let him believe what he wants.

[straightline]

How about Pavel Tsatsouline :P ?

He should stick to selling the kettlebells and brain washing the American public that dumbells are evil.

[Van Zandt]

I know you are just clowning around. You can possibly think that Thomas Kurz is more informed then Paul Zaichik about flexibility. That is just absurd.
Mr. Kurz is an old man who still selling the same things thing he sold in the 80's through Black Belt Magazine ads. Mr. Zaichik looks and talk like Adam Sandler, but when it comes to stretching he is top notch.
I know for a fact that you are not familiar with his work and methods. IF you were, you would not say what you say.

And you the other guy. Don't bother with this debate. It's stupid. Let him believe what he wants.

I almost thought you were serious for a moment there.

[straightline]

I almost thought you were serious for a moment there.

Looking at your picture there, it doesn't look like you have a full split.
Good luck with a very effective ;) Kurz method.

[Van Zandt]

I know you are just clowning around. You can possibly think that Thomas Kurz is more informed then Paul Zaichik about flexibility. That is just absurd.
Mr. Kurz is an old man who still selling the same things thing he sold in the 80's through Black Belt Magazine ads. Mr. Zaichik looks and talk like Adam Sandler, but when it comes to stretching he is top notch.
I know for a fact that you are not familiar with his work and methods. IF you were, you would not say what you say.

Yes, Mr. Kurz is an 'old man'. He's 52-years old. Oh, wait - I see you're 53. Kettle calling the pot black, maybe? And even though he's getting on a bit, maybe you should check out this video of him at 50:

YouTube - 1-minute side split and front split flexibility routine

I completely agree with you that he is still selling the same stuff as he did back in the 80's. The fact that two decades later people are still achieving great results as when it first came out speaks volumes for the quality of his material. He hasn't changed his stuff because it still works as well now as it did back then. So thank you for making this point in support of Kurz, my friend!

Looking at your picture there, it doesn't look like you have a full split.
Good luck with a very effective Kurz method.

*Changes avatar*

Satisfied?

Like I said, I will believe that Zaichik's method is more effective than Kurz's when:

1) I find it more effective for myself. I haven't yet.
2) My students and clients find it more effective. They haven't yet.
3) He demonstrates as much knowledge of exercise physiology and kinesiology as Kurz. He hasn't yet.
4) He [Zaichik] can prove his method works for most of his customers. He hasn't yet.+

On the contrary, when considering Kurz on the above 4 points:

1) I found Kurz's method more effective than Zaichik's.
2) Kurz's method has worked very well for all of my students and clients.
3) Kurz is possibly the most knowledgeable individual when it comes to stretching. He demonstrates this in all of his material.
4) Kurz's books and website are full of photographic testimonials of customers who have achieved great flexibility thanks to his method. And where are Zaichik's photographic testimonials?

Also Kurz only sells one or two products which are sufficient to get the job done. Whereas Zaichik has way too many products for the same goal. For example, on the FAQ section of his website he states: "There are differences between the Strength & Flexibility Manual and the Splits & Flexibility DVD. If you are looking to strictly learn how to do the splits and get flexible, then you should probably purchase the DVD which goes into details and gives you absolutely all the necessary information on how to safely achieve splits and get flexible. While the book covers flexibility and splits as well, it also contains a section on how to get high, powerful kicks." How are strength and flexibility different from splits and flexibility? For one, the quickest way to achieve full splits is to make the muscles stronger in the stretched-out position. Why? Because a stronger muscle generally requires less activation to support its load. I.e. the stronger it is, the more flexible it is. And aren't splits and flexibility the same thing? I think so. It seems (to me at least) that Zaichik is just trying to flog more products.

Think I'll stick with Kurz.

Like I said before. If Zaichik works for you, great. If Kurz works for you, great also.

[TheAngle]

I know you are just clowning around. You can possibly think that Thomas Kurz is more informed then Paul Zaichik about flexibility. That is just absurd.
Mr. Kurz is an old man who still selling the same things thing he sold in the 80's through Black Belt Magazine ads. Mr. Zaichik looks and talk like Adam Sandler, but when it comes to stretching he is top notch.
I know for a fact that you are not familiar with his work and methods. IF you were, you would not say what you say.

And you the other guy. Don't bother with this debate. It's stupid. Let him believe what he wants.

Um, Straightline while you and I are both sort of agree on Zaichik vs Kurz issue. I don't think it's "stupid" to have this debate. Superfoot like Kurz and he expresses why he does. I like Zaichik and I express why I do.

I was purchasing yogurt the other day and thought. Hm so many different brands. So the same thing here.

I will how ever post some of the Zaichik's video's which helped me a lot with my training. Super Foot, I recommend that you look through them, maybe they will help you too.

YouTube - Mastering the Side Kick Form Focus on Side Kick Core Form
Exercises for good posture when kicking.

YouTube - Front Split Explanation and Comparison
This is in regards to 3 splits or 2 splits.

YouTube - ButterFly Stretch
Helped me with butterfly stretch. His grappling video, which I got few months ago is packed with this. Which is why it's great that he came out with this video.

YouTube - Hamstrings Flexibility
Great for the hamstrings. One of the best hamstrings stretches I ever encountered.

YouTube - ElasticSteel High Side Kick Training
This is classic. The best little program I encountered for side kick height training.

YouTube - 5 minute side split flexibility routine.
Quick Routine for A side split. Try this.

There are more videos of coarse which I like, but you can subscribe to his channel if you like.

Happy Holidays.

[Van Zandt]

Some good videos there, but Zaichik is wrong (in the fourth video, "Hamstring Flexibility") where he states that the hamstrings get shorter when standing. In a normal standing position the leg is straight; the quadriceps contract and the hamstrings relax. Therefore it is not possible for the hamstrings to get 'shorter' when you are standing, because they are relaxed and not contracting.

[TheAngle]

Some good videos there, but Zaichik is wrong (in the fourth video, "Hamstring Flexibility") where he states that the hamstrings get shorter when standing. In a normal standing position the leg is straight; the quadriceps contract and the hamstrings relax. Therefore it is not possible for the hamstrings to get 'shorter' when you are standing, because they are relaxed and not contracting.

I am glad you did not start bashing his videos. lol

In terms of the hamstrings video. I don't what he meant. I am sure he has a reason for saying what he said.

[MucKSW]

Like I said before. If Zaichik works for you, great. If Kurz works for you, great also.


I think that said enough ;p

Anyway, I'm getting more into my stretching, but I also start to feel a little slighty thing in my knee. Not pain, but something like I'm stretching them too(especially when doing front splits with my back-leg turned). But as shown on the Dvd of Kurz, I started doing deep squats, with a straight back, and dumbbells in my hands. Those should be good exercises for my knees right?

[Van Zandt]

Those should be good exercises for my knees right?

Yes, these exercises will help you. You may also want to consider doing Hindu squats to strengthen and rehabilitate your knees. Kurz says:

"Squats without additional resistance (weight), such as Hindu squats, strengthen knee ligaments, develop muscular endurance in the lower body, and improve lung function. This is why these squats, called baithak, together with one more exercise—Hindu push-ups—are an indispensable part of Indian wrestlers' training. These wrestlers, famous for their stamina, do several hundred deep squats every day (Draeger and Smith 1974)."

You can read more at:

http://www.stadion.com/column_stretch22.html

Regards,

Dan