"Street" Applications and encounters

[Pkaaaww!!]

I was just wondering how many people here have actually had to use the devastating techniques we all learn in real life situations on the streets.

Now I ain't looking for stories but I'd like to know just how many practitioners or Teachers have had a street altercation.
And I'd like to know if your school teaches you how to avoid these circumstances in the first place. You know. Citizenship and stuff.

I'm always looking for new tips and tricks cos of what I have chosen for my career, even though I kinda had to following in my father's footsteps.

If you or anyone at your school has had a run in, how'd it go?
And how'd the five-oh react to it?

I got taken to Emergency once after being stabbed in the back. But that was cos I was shielding someone when I shoulda been keeping my eyes wide open.
Least they didn't get it. Better me than them huh?

I only had to use it on the streets six times. Two personal and four job related.
But I live in the city of sin or angels, depending on your viewpoint :rolleyes:

Respect and Peace
:star:

[Spinmaster]

I got taken to Emergency once after being stabbed in the back. But that was cos I was shielding someone when I shoulda been keeping my eyes wide open.
Least they didn't get it. Better me than them huh?


I must say, it's very refreshing to hear such a selfless viewpoint in a day when many folks are only interested in "looking out for number 1"!
BTW, what type of job do you do?

[Pkaaaww!!]

I look after people who could be targeted by (sometimes obsessional - wish I was there when John Lennon got shot...Maybe he wouldn't have) persons who may wish the client harm.

[TheWaywardSon]

Figured I'd throw in a little technique I'm rather fond of, as a defense against a single or double leg take down or charge to the gut. When the opponent makes contact shift you weight towards your back leg, mean while reach under the throat with a rake or grab to wind pipe with whichever hand is on the same side as the rear leg, immediately apply preasure to the windpipe while pulling the head up and continuing to step back, since their weight is currently pitched forward into your body the preasure you apply to their wind pipe gets amplified by their own momentum and body weight, since youve been moving yourself away from his power the whole time you'll be in a prime position to control his head into a spin and a choke out or a submission from the rear if you wish, a strike to the back of the head or a knee stomp serves just as well. Hope that was help full and if anything needs clarifying just ask and i'll do my best to answer.

[TaeKwonDavid]

Another handy technique if someone attempts to tackle you is to simply place your hands on the back of their head and use their own momentum to take them down to the ground face first. I'm glad I've never had to use anything I've learned on the street. By the way, that takedown could easily be converted to give the opponent a knee to the face or to send them into a wall rather than into the ground.

[Pkaaaww!!]

Figured I'd throw in a little technique I'm rather fond of, as a defense against a single or double leg take down or charge to the gut.

I think the only problem with this tackle or takedown, I think it's called "shooting", is that it leaves your kidneys totally exposed unless the guy goes totally down.
Good if they're standing parallel, not so good if they've got a supporting stance.

I think the single leg lift, using your shoulder to push up into and forwards on the groin is the best way of shooting.

For some reason, a lot of Hapkido techniques seem to forget the power of the shoulder barge as is used in Wu Shu or Wing Chun.

As for the rest, I'd be hoping the guy'd be on his back about now. That means I can just hold him til some buddies step in.

[TheWaywardSon]

Just wondering but are you reffering to using this technique as a takedown itself? If i gave that impression I apologize, its meant as a defense from being taken down yourself not the other way around.

As far as performing a take down yourself I'm inclined to agree with you, keeping it simple is by the best way to approach things. Although truth be told the average person doesn't have enough training in performing a shoot properly to make it effective, no less dangerous but that can give you time and opportunities a well trained grappler may not give you.

[Pkaaaww!!]

Yeah - I thought that was what you meant.
Sorry, bro.

There are a lot of Highschool football players out there who have the ability, but maybe just don't realize the potential. Martial Art can find itself in many aspects of life.

I've found the supermarket to be a good place - I hate shopping.

As defences from takedowns goes... I think a pair of springy legs helps a lot. If you're advanced enough, a Butterfly or cartwheel, flip or roll - something like works wonders.
Sometimes it's best to fall and counter-attack from the floor, luring them into a painful lock or a well-placed strike that no-one sees...
They're the aggressor, after all.

Either that or you can perform a nice forward roll on the spot, bringing your foot into the uke's face. Depending on the projection or takedown.
For trips, I like to grab vital spots that ensure the other person falls with me, so I can get the advantage.

I find it better to escape to close quarters than to a distance, to press forward a counter attack.

But that's just my way.

Everyone has there own, unique style.

I think, though, that most people who are well trained in a fighting or Martial Art are less likely to be the aggressor than the defender simply because of the power we accumulate through our knowledge.

What do you think? I think I'm a counter-attacker cos of the law.
A - attack
B - back off
C - counter

Maybe there's more to add to that alphabet... Or other words to use. Blocker maybe.

[Pkaaaww!!]

I like the penguin, btw.

:)

[Pkaaaww!!]

And the Yoda sig.

I gotta get me a sig.

I like "Wander Lonely as a Rhino", but I don't think people would get it...

[TheWaywardSon]

*takes a bow* hehe appreciate it and hey the more obscure the sig the more mysterious ya get to be!!!! lol :yeleyes:

[TheWaywardSon]

Just a thought but it seems to me a great deal of the reason many martial artist counter fight so heavily is that many of us are trained from the de-escalate the situation first and fight second approach. Major reasons for this being as you said.

1. The Law *He who strikes first get sued first*

2. Fights are a dirty business no matter how good you are, avoid them when possible

Not to discredit the good old preemptive attack ideology, but it just doesn't jive as well in court most of the time. And yes I'm hugely oversimplifying but for the sake of not recovering the same ground as countless posts bear with me.

I try to go by a rather simple idea. A man can say anything he wants to me, it might make me angry but words can be ignored, but when he lays his hands on me that's the end of being civil.

[TaeKwonDavid]

Just a thought but it seems to me a great deal of the reason many martial artist counter fight so heavily is that many of us are trained from the de-escalate the situation first and fight second approach. Major reasons for this being as you said.

1. The Law *He who strikes first get sued first*

2. Fights are a dirty business no matter how good you are, avoid them when possible

Not to discredit the good old preemptive attack ideology, but it just doesn't jive as well in court most of the time. And yes I'm hugely oversimplifying but for the sake of not recovering the same ground as countless posts bear with me.

I try to go by a rather simple idea. A man can say anything he wants to me, it might make me angry but words can be ignored, but when he lays his hands on me that's the end of being civil.

That's the way my instructor teaches. He says there are four steps to approaching a fight:
1) Talk, whether that's to persuade the other person not to fight or to intimidate them
2) Kick
3) Punch
4) Run

Basically, we know how to fight but the last thing you want to do for the sake of your own personal safety is actually have to fight

[JimH]

There are several aspects of the street which many schools DO NOT Teach.
Awareness:
Being AWARE and Not preoccupied by other things when out in public,like cell phones,Ipod,or any other distracting things which many do that makes then prime Targets.

Avoidance:
After One is Aware that a Potential problem is ahead they make/take steps to go/get around the potential problem.

Dialogue:
If one was not able to get around the problem or if the problem seemed to just come out of no where,then you try to talk your way out of the situation and or talk to the attacker to occupy their mind before you go Preemptive.

Conflict:
The Fight that could not be avoided.
The Fight you either responded to or the fight you felt compelled to act on with you preemption/first attack.

Post Conflict actions:
What to do after the conflict.
Leave
Wait for Police.
Self Triage

Most schools teach the Encounter/Conflict/Fight aspect only.

To answer the question on actual Fights;
Yes I have had a FEW,lol.
None could be described as having used any certain technique.
(as in the Real Deal there is not time for arranged techniques it happens too fast)
Maybe techniques could be applied after the attacker is struck,stunned and weakened and the victim has time ,and or,wants to hang around.
Just move and strike,move and strike.
Strike to hurt the person/persons.
The only move that possibly looks as if it is something is if you go preemptive and make the first strike, if not then nothing is as it seems in a controlled Dojo/dojang encounter.

How many train hapkido in a dynamic moving fashion ,over the static stand and get grabbed and then apply your technique?
Few that I have been to do dynamic application and response.
Our school does dynamic attacks and responses and they are very different when seen and done.(much more street applicable)

Anyone who has not been in a Real Encounter that tells you something works for sure is guessing and throwing out theory.

Training ,No Matter how Real in the school,DOES NOT Equate to the Realities of being alone ,on the street,fighting for your life.

My Opinion

[JimH]

A fight for your life on the street IS NOT a fight because some jerk said something to you.

It is NOT a Bar fight because some jerk bumped into you and spilled your drink.

A Fight for your life is a direct Consequence of Fear that if you DO NOT Act something BAD to DEADLY will be the Outcome for you,the victim.

If you go into a fight for your life on the street and the opportunity and need to go preemptive presents itself and you do nothing but wait for the attacker to come at you first so you can fight your DEFENSIVE Fight then you just screwed yourself out of an opportunity to possibly go home.

If you are able to Verbalize your fear and your need to act to the authorities you are NOT Wrong,you are Justified under the Law.

[Pkaaaww!!]

A fight for your life on the street IS NOT a fight because some jerk said something to you.

It is NOT a Bar fight because some jerk bumped into you and spilled your drink.

A Fight for your life is a direct Consequence of Fear that if you DO NOT Act something BAD to DEADLY will be the Outcome for you,the victim.

If you go into a fight for your life on the street and the opportunity and need to go preemptive presents itself and you do nothing but wait for the attacker to come at you first so you can fight your DEFENSIVE Fight then you just screwed yourself out of an opportunity to possibly go home.

If you are able to Verbalize your fear and your need to act to the authorities you are NOT Wrong,you are Justified under the Law.

You a lawyer Jim?
That's some heavy reading...

All the above is very insightful.

One thing that's missing, so far, is that (nearly all the time) we are a LOT quicker than the average "brawler" - that means that as soon as we see the strike coming, the reaction is quicker.

It looks like we hit first, even though it was the other person's intent.

It works best with a punch thrown at you countered before impact with a kick to the plexus or chest, bladder or balls / thighs.
People can see that one.

But to see the punch coming and to parry or strike the bicep to disable the arm (or turn to project or lock, whatever) or pre-emptive counter-strike to disable - It ALWAYS looks, to bystanders, like you're the aggressor.

Especially when the other guy says so too.

I always keep my license with my wallet, even off duty, just in case - five-oh trust a martial artist to DEFEND rather than ATTACK.

:Aegis:

[JimH]

If you are walking down the street and you are approached suddenly,and you are threatened with physical injury and or death if you do not comply do you think you will actually give a crap if some one sees you make the first strike ?

If you fear more about being the First to Strike over being seen by others to truly be the Victim,then the Victim, Dead or with Injuries, is what you will probably be.

A threat of Physical bodily harm is as JUST/Legal a reason to ACT as waiting to React to a physical Strike.

You ACT off the Intention of the Attacker to cause you to fear for yourself or another by threat and intimidation.

Again I am not talking about beating a bum because he asks for money,nor am I talking about a fight with some one over being called a name.

I am talking about Actual Threats made most times in a secluded area designated by a predator as his/her hunting grounds.

I have been in a few Real Fights where threat was verbally made and the attacker/s postured before they went physical and I preemptively struck.
(I intended to go home and gave two craps about the attacker/s and if he /she,they were ready)

When it comes to going home I will do what ever I have to do to end the conflict as soon as it is recognized.

You do not take a strike or try to simultaneously strike so the viewing public can say who went first.

If the Attack is Real then you should be going verbal and talking loud anyway getting the public,what ever public may be around in the predators area of attack, and get them to hear you say:
What do you want
Leave Me Alone
I Do not want a Problem
Back Off
Stop
Yell whatever you have to just before or as you strike.

Again the Law allows you to act in order to Free yourself from a potentially Dangerous situation.

I also would not and DO Not advocate strikes to limbs as distractions,warnings or to cause temporary pain.
If I am attacked and threatened then I strike to stop the attacker by Hurting them as much as possible by attacking the knees,elbows,face,eyes,throat,groin ,bladder.
(I am not aiming to hit muscle or body mass targets)

If you down the attacker with a preemptive Strike or reactionary strike and then continue to stand over him/her and kick,punch /Strike them THEN you are wrong.
You have become the aggressor.
But
If you act/react to the threat and do ENOUGH (which is what the law says) to get away (where the threat is NO Longer present) then you ARE With In your Rights.

My View and My Mind set.
We all have to decide what we Will Do or Not Do to go home.
I know what I WILL DO,what I HAVE Done and I Know I will Go Home.

[Pkaaaww!!]

I can't act unless the person I'm escorting is under direct threat, but it's principally the same.

Thanks Jim.

[JimH]

Quote Pkaaaw:
"I can't act unless the person I'm escorting is under direct threat"

It all depends on what one would term "Direct Threat"

As a Bodyguard it is ones responsibility to know of threats made to a client by persons and or groups.

One needs to identify and isolate ,if and when possible,problems that may exist/person/s who pose a problem and keep them away from the client.

This is preemptive work is it not ?

Preemptive actions are taken and is carried out by Good Bodyguard groups and is seen as a regular part of secret Service and DOS Agents/Bodyguards.

If your forward team is screening an event and someone in the crowd is identified as a known or potential threat they are moved off or to distance and monitored prior to and during the clients arrival.
This is preemptive and is a part of good screening by a Bodyguard and DOES NOT Require Direct threat but assumed/implied/potential Threat.

Having been a member of a Government Protection Unit and a non Government/civilian Bodyguard I know what the job entails and I know that the job actually entails more than just shielding the client.

A Good Bodyguard knows how to move a client within the group of BGs as situations dictate as well as other skills such as:
How to Drive a vehicle and use the vehicle in Offensive as well as Defensive conditions.
How to preplan and use alternate routes in movement with an advanced route runner locating problems and making alternates on the go.
Electronic sweeping abilities.
Bomb sweep and detection abilities.
Basic Medical abilities.
On and on.

If in moving a client someone gets in the way and SEEMS to be slowing the client down or blocking the clients passage the BG who is up front removes or directs other security measures to remove the obstacle so as not to allow the client to be presented as a target.
One Does not need a Direct Threat or any threat to carry out such basic tactics.

The above is slightly off topic for most as they are not in the field of personal protection but the actions still are applicable to individuals and their families in movement.
Know your route (Awareness)

Identify and avoid or move problems (Avoidance)

When slowed down or stopped,courteously ,but with authority,ask and without effort move the obstacle (Dialogue and pre conflict stage)

Move the obstacle by force if need be (Conflict)

Check for injuries to yourself and others with you after the conflict stage is over (self and other triage)

All can be done to some extent under indirect threat,direct threat,implied threat,or the intent of threat in any and all forms.

Just my view having done personal protection as just one of my experiences/occupations in my life.

[MasL]

Hi Jim H

Long time no speak. Well seeing as how they've stopped me using the TKD forum I thought I'd come and converse with you. Hope you don't mind.

On the subject of Bodyguarding. No offence Jim but I don't think you've got the right temperament. Back at the times of the ITF forums I had a look at some of your "confrontations" you boasted about on forums such a senshido, etc. most of them were easily avoidable and completely unnecessary. E.g. squaring up to some teenage guy who got in the parking space before you, etc ,etc.

I wouldn't want a bodyguard who was constantly getting into road rage incidents. It's a question of judgement and how one acts under stress.

Oh btw, congrats on becoming a master in Combat Hapkido. Please pass on my regards to Marvin. I hope he's feeling better.

[Pkaaaww!!]

It all depends on what one would term "Direct Threat"


That'd be a threat that's a direct one, Jim... Just say what you see buddy.


As a Bodyguard it is ones responsibility to know of threats made to a client by persons and or groups.

One needs to identify and isolate ,if and when possible,problems that may exist/person/s who pose a problem and keep them away from the client.

This is preemptive work is it not ?


It does contain elements of pre-emptive strike action, but it's usually best to avoid the encounter using subterfuge, distraction, false / dis information, etc...

When it comes to Direct Encounter - first priority is protection of the client, not that of neutralizing the attacker.
Uke may have the upper hand in this situation, but the VIP is the person who is the VIP.

Once the person is safe, however, Uke's yours for the taking.:hat:


Preemptive actions are taken and is carried out by Good Bodyguard groups and is seen as a regular part of secret Service and DOS Agents/Bodyguards.


I won't tell you how I know this to be wrong, but I'm afraid you're wrong, Jim...

Unless we have crossed wires and you're talking about manoeuvres and avoidance, rather than confrontation...

It sounds to me like you're talkin confrontation, man - That's to be avoided at ALL COSTS.

Being part of the Agency, the idea is to remain hidden. A sleeper cell, so to speak.
There are obvious guards for intimidation and lure and sleepers for info and subterfuge.

There are a lot more tactics involved in guarding, but I can't go into them here - if you're interested, you can email me and I can explain.

[/quote]
If your forward team is screening an event and someone in the crowd is identified as a known or potential threat they are moved off or to distance and monitored prior to and during the clients arrival.
This is preemptive and is a part of good screening by a Bodyguard and DOES NOT Require Direct threat but assumed/implied/potential Threat.


This is known as "known threat removal & isolation" by the Agency and ATF/FBI, etc... - I think we're at crossed wires...


Having been a member of a Government Protection Unit and a non Government/civilian Bodyguard I know what the job entails and I know that the job actually entails more than just shielding the client.


Maybe we work for the same lot, huh, Jim?

The shadow of sparse leaves are beautiful at this time of year, are they not?

You know the answer?

[quote]
A Good Bodyguard knows how to move a client within the group of BGs as situations dictate as well as other skills such as:
How to Drive a vehicle and use the vehicle in Offensive as well as Defensive conditions.
How to preplan and use alternate routes in movement with an advanced route runner locating problems and making alternates on the go.
Electronic sweeping abilities.
Bomb sweep and detection abilities.
Basic Medical abilities.
On and on.


So does a marine or a weekend warrior...


If in moving a client someone gets in the way and SEEMS to be slowing the client down or blocking the clients passage the BG who is up front removes or directs other security measures to remove the obstacle so as not to allow the client to be presented as a target.
One Does not need a Direct Threat or any threat to carry out such basic tactics.


If you did what you said above - this situation would never arise in the first place - it's a non starter...
If Alpha, Beta, Charlie and Delta plans are FUBAR, then it's Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, etc...


The above is slightly off topic for most as they are not in the field of personal protection but the actions still are applicable to individuals and their families in movement.
Know your route (Awareness)

Identify and avoid or move problems (Avoidance)

When slowed down or stopped,courteously ,but with authority,ask and without effort move the obstacle (Dialogue and pre conflict stage)

Move the obstacle by force if need be (Conflict)

Check for injuries to yourself and others with you after the conflict stage is over (self and other triage)

All can be done to some extent under indirect threat,direct threat,implied threat,or the intent of threat in any and all forms.

Just my view having done personal protection as just one of my experiences/occupations in my life.


Hey - another ABC...

Maybe we could start an alphabet of Martial Art:

A - Attack; Avoid; Aware
B - Back off; Block
C - Counter; Conflict;
D - Defence; Deflect; Duck and counter
E - Etc...

[Pkaaaww!!]

I wouldn't want a bodyguard who was constantly getting into road rage incidents. It's a question of judgement and how one acts under stress.


Conditioning of the Adrenal/Cortisol Flight or Fight response is one of the most rudimentary things to be learned by any protector.

You got to be cool to have a straight head and not trip out and stick a cap in the wrong guy or twist an adoring fan's shoulder out the socket cos she wanted to touch the Chinese Head of State for good luck...

(knowing the customs of foreign VIP's is a must, for any aspiring protectors out there... I made a mistake once and I still get ripped for it: "Hey! Ain't you the big guy who took out the little old Chinese lady?")


Oh btw, congrats on becoming a master in Combat Hapkido. Please pass on my regards to Marvin. I hope he's feeling better.

Jim's a Master?

Sorry Jim - I should refer to you as Jim Saboumnim...

[Pkaaaww!!]

Please - Call me Jay

[JimH]

Hi Mas,
I guess because your have read posts I have made on here and on various other sites you think you know me ?
I guess you know my temperment and what causes me to act on my behalf or for those of others ?
What form of H2H or experience in REAL Life do you bring to the discussion Mas ?

You bring the experience of mis quotes and instigation as in your misrepresentation of an event I posted on.
I am sure the whole event can be found if one goes to Senshido and looks for it,lol.

Nice to have had this re visit Mas.
.................................................. .................................................. ....
I have done protection work while in the US Marines and while in SF as well as for a company in NYC so Pkaaaww if you have worked for or with those Military Government agencies then we have indeed worked the same fields.
(I have not been active in the BG field for a while.I worked it at various times from 1975 to the mid to later 80's)

"Direct threat" can be Written ,Verbal or Physical so again the Term has several meanings and is not always Physical.

My point of a Good Team preempting/removing an obstacle that is known to be a potential problem before an event or before the problem gets close is always done .
example:
The Secret Service for example when moving a client to an area will search data banks for possible treats ,identify them and then go and Isolate them ,keeping them from the event or client.
(Not direct confrontation)

The client is always the Priority and as such is always kept on the move unless they have predetermined and secured areas to stop and mix or photo op.

Sorry I do not know the answer to your quote.
"The shadow of sparse leaves are beautiful at this time of year, are they not?"

Everything is ABC isn't it and that was my point :
Be Aware
Avoid
Dialogue
Conflict
Post Conflict.

Call it or redefine it as you want.
ABC's are steps,foundations to create the whole.

[Pkaaaww!!]

Jim sabumnim bro, I weren't born til '79!
I'm mostly in Europe rite now. But I'm based out of CA.
NYC is a nice city. I prefer London. It's where I'm at.

I reckon I'm gonna start a thread of the ABC's of Martial Arts. See how many we can all come up with.

[JimH]

Jay,
London is a great Place.
I lived there,was stationed there for two years.
We try to get back often and hopefully will be back there soon.
Stay Safe.

[CatWise]

As someone that practices Hapkido (and loves it), I unfortunately had to use my skills on more then one occasion. Usually on some guy that thought he was going to be "fresh" and get a little to "personal" with me in front of his buddies. In my school we concentrate very much on the technique and the hapkido style is called the dynamic circle, which means that you learn how to move and use the opponents moment against him. Self-defense and the "real life" applications of these techniques are also taught in my school. So in all these instances I was able to get the guy down to the ground before he knew what happened.

Although, in one of the occasions the guy try to grab my boob, and ended up hitting his face on the bar. Broke his nose. He was totally the jerk, especially since I asked him several times to leave me alone and I wasn't interested. I was the one that was asked to LEAVE!! I'm still mad about that one...

[Pkaaaww!!]

So in all these instances I was able to get the guy down to the ground before he knew what happened.

That's how it works, catwoman.

No effort and a quick movement sends them flying everytime!


Although, in one of the occasions the guy try to grab my boob, and ended up hitting his face on the bar. Broke his nose. He was totally the jerk, especially since I asked him several times to leave me alone and I wasn't interested. I was the one that was asked to LEAVE!! I'm still mad about that one...

ROTFL!!!:evil:

Nasty!

[MasL]

As someone that practices Hapkido (and loves it), I unfortunately had to use my skills on more then one occasion. Usually on some guy that thought he was going to be "fresh" and get a little to "personal" with me in front of his buddies. In my school we concentrate very much on the technique and the hapkido style is called the dynamic circle, which means that you learn how to move and use the opponents moment against him. Self-defense and the "real life" applications of these techniques are also taught in my school. So in all these instances I was able to get the guy down to the ground before he knew what happened.

Although, in one of the occasions the guy try to grab my boob, and ended up hitting his face on the bar. Broke his nose. He was totally the jerk, especially since I asked him several times to leave me alone and I wasn't interested. I was the one that was asked to LEAVE!! I'm still mad about that one...

Maybe your mouth said no but your eyes said yes?

Hang on.. you got thrown out? Hmm maybe there's two sides to this story?

So he didn't actually grab you.. and you broke his nose.. don't tell me.. you grabbed his hair and pulled his face down hard onto the bar.. because he almost touched you. :eek: :cool:

[MasL]

Cat Wise

I see you're from New York. Pity you don't live in the UK there's as guy here who could maybe help you. He has a TV show. His name is Jeremy Kyle. Every so often he explores anger issues.

[Sgt_Major]

Mas, I have another guy in the uk here who can help remove your posting rights from ALL of map if you keep posting like this.

No more warnings, no more chances. Next wrong move = perma ban.

[CatWise]

Mas,
For you info, my eyes said nothing but "you are a discusting drunk, get away" and for the other, no I didn't grab his hair. He did put his hand on me and that is why he got hurt. I grabed the hand he placed on me and using that hand and back of his neck I smashed his face into the bar. A purely hapkido move I have practiced many times over.

The reason why I got kicked out was because the ass turned out to be the owners son, and the bartender didn't see him touching me, but his bloody face. It was obvious that the bartender felt the jerk has done this before, but if your job is on the line, you go with what you got to do to protect it.

I don't have anger issues, never did. I can see why you have been kicked of the TKD board...

[Pkaaaww!!]

Does this twinky toes stuff happen all the time here?
It's just plain stupid to ask a Hapkido Exponent (or any martial artisit for that matter) about whether they got angry when they performed this or that technique.

When yr angry, you forget all that and go all caveman.

Try doing a juming reverse turning kick after a bottle of JD and you'll see what I mean.

Good shootin on banning that guy before he infested people here with his Jeremy kyle ********.
I seen that show and its just jerry springer all over again but without so many fat people and a host that gets more angry than they do to get the anger issue across.

Well done for not rising to the bait Catwise.

:star:

[Pkaaaww!!]

Lets hope he don't skip IPs and spoof another account again.

[CatWise]

Thanks Pkaaaww,

It takes more then an idiotic a$$ comment like Mas' to show my claws. :)

[Saccade]

Meeeow...

[Saccade]

Article 13.4
Section 1.5

(or wtvrtf it is)

Do not disguise swearwords like A$$ with things like A$$.

;)

[Saccade]

I rarely remember most of the "street" (ie forced upon me, not instigated - I'm sorry to say I have done my share of fighting).

Training takes over and it just happens and then the old bill show up and wonder why the eyewitness accounts say that the aggressor was the guy covered in blood and the guy that did it to him is half his size, looks like Jack Sparrow (I hate it when people call me that or ask "where'd you park the black pearl, mate? like they're the first), is wearing a cardigan and is keeping schtum.

(That means quiet - interrogation technique No1 - fix your eyes on a point and listen, concentrating on that point and the voices and breathing steadily, meaning emotions in check. [You will have been through this I.T. so many times it's second nature if you're in the business...] Do not open your mouth even if they attach electrodes onto your gonads - you can always bite your tongue off and choke on your own blood than give up friendly info.)

One example I always give is that of a friend of mine, who I trained with - he had a "trigger", needed permission to let rip, from the attacker.

We were finishing the night off and went to get a cab - we'd been sparring a bit and we'd given each other a bit of a beating, but that was the idea. Punch each other in the face so we get used to it...
No marks - they appear the next day.

Five "rugby boys" got out of the cab that turned up and started throwing bits of pizza and boxes and hurling abuse at us.

Then one of them made the mistake of saying something that was a personal attack on my friend's family.

He ran after all five of them.
Cab driver scarpered with my 6-pack in the back (this was back in the days when I still drank alcohol).
That annoyed me. We had to walk, no more cabs were coming at this time of night; I'd lost my beers and now my mate was walking into a scrap.

I ran up to his side and we assumed fighting stances.
Side be side.

The rugby boys stopped in their tracks.

The biggest one stepped forward and we immediately took his leading leg out.
Two turning kicks to the sweet spots on the outside and inside.

He sat down and we held our ground while the remaining tried to decide if they should run or cack their pants or rush us.

Eventually, the big guy decided that there was no problem except between my mate and his mate, who'd shouted the offensive comments.

We moved to an area that was even ground and light - I was crowd control and my mate stood there waiting.
The other guy launched in with a load of haymakers and my mate ducked and weaved, letting him tire himself, until the "trigger" was pulled - the other guy grazed my mate's chin.

He threw four punches - one two, right uppercut, left hook.
One split the guys eyebrow open, the guy was asleep on two, uppercut knocked him out proper and the left hook knocked out a few of his teeth.

At this point the crowd decided to try and grab my mate.

Backhand strike, one down. Turn and Cross, two down. Two broken noses.

Big guy's sitting down still.

Last guy's decided that he wants to go home...

This took about 20 seconds.

The only reason I know the detail is because of the CCTV.
My mate remembered nothing except that he got into a scrap.

A week later, my mate was in the pub and the five guys were there, looking worse for wear. A phone call later and they were joined by around 20 others.

My mate called me.

I called a friend from 2 para.

Met him in a different pub (from now which we are barred). We sat either side of my mate and the 25 strong mob decided they still wanted to have a go.
When we were at the bar and my mate's back was turned.

Word of advice - don't bring the para's in cos they make a mess out of people.

Less than a minute later, the bouncers were floored too.

Between the three of us, we had to account for 12 counts of ABH, GBH, Assault, Afray, Criminal Damage (missing fillings and teeth...), along with minor compensation claims.

On investigation, thanks to some friends, all charges were dropped as we defended ourselves in the manner that was appropriate - someone trying to smash a bottle over your head is assault with a deadly weapon.

3 Martial Artists, 2 Military, 3 in total.

Against a mob.
Who tried to sucker punch us out (like that'd work with three sets of eyes) and paid the price of trying to get revenge for an attack they made that failed.

I don't live in that town anymore, but my mate did for a while afterwards and he never had any trouble again and, as far as I'm aware didn't tell anyone about the scraps.

Basically -

You see the target, you know the technique, you perform it - you see the next target.

It's all on automatic.

People can pose all they want, shout as loud as they want (though they'll never be as terrifying as a good Kiyap, especially when it's backed up with the technique [or vice versa]), say what they want.

But to a trained Martial Artist - it means nothing.

I'm just waiting for you... "Have you finished yet? I'm getting bored..."

They take (or start to take) a move towards the Martial Artist and they never know what happened.

What gets me is, they got into a fight... Did they expect not to get hurt?
We did. Adrenaline sees to that one, though - the pain is just another sensation that you don't remember.

In my experience, most people who win fights have just got a really hard punch.
They throw rights and haymakers - that's why, as white belts, you learn to block/parry/whatever from the left side.

The majority of black eyes are the left eye because it's the right hand.

They nearly always telegraph their good, hard punch and nearly always aim for your face (Why do that? What's wrong with winding someone? it finishes it quicker... Maybe they want everyone to be as ugly as them. Who knows?)

The attacker can throw his hardest punch whenever he wants.

For me, that's good.

It means a really painful landing for him...

(no-one ever seems to notice the extras I put in to wind them as I start the technique I've chosen).

NEVER KICK SOMEONE WHEN THEY'RE DOWN.

Tell them not to get up again and then wait for them to get up again.
Repeat until they stay down.

[MasL]

Catwise

Hi, I should explain: I actually found your post pretty offensive. But i wasn't going to make a bit thing about it or report it so I just had a little joke over it. Seems you don't have much of a sense of humour.

What you did was actually a criminal assault. GBH and affray spring to mind. Your response to the incident where he "touched " you was way out of proportion to any threat. There was no threat to you. You yourself admit this when you stated you didn't want to leave. You also made no attempt to distance yourself from him or the situation.

A good prosecution lawyer would make you look like an aggressive psychopath who deliberately allowed the situation to develop so you could exact your attack on the person. An attack you admit you have practised many times before. The only mitigating circumstances would be the level of harassment he caused.

Yes the man in question may indeed have been acting inappropriately. However ,if he assaulted you then you had a duty to report the matter to the police. Did you? This is particularity true if the attack was in any was sexual. You tend to suggest it was.

This becomes more important since this was clearly a regular haunt for him (since his father owns the bar) and maybe something he does on a regular basis. It could even be the thin end of a wedge regarding his behaviour. Thats is why the police would need to investigate.

Smashing the face in of an obviously very drunk man (anyone who want to actually try this move against anyone even slightly resisting should try and do so) solves nothing. Except bragging about it graphically on an internet forum where children could read it. In fact all that could result is that the man in question becomes even more aggressive in any future incidents.

Something to perhaps think about if it happens again.

[MasL]

Well I've read some of the stuff that you posted on the TKD forum. Well done on it LOL. If I'd posted half of that I probably would be banned.

Can you do another A to Z please? I don't think I laughed so much. Well I lie. The video Alexander posted of Sid Sofos narrowly beat your "A to Z before bed".

Some funny stuff nonetheless.

Nice one:):rolleyes::cool::hat::evil:

Does this twinky toes stuff happen all the time here?
It's just plain stupid to ask a Hapkido Exponent (or any martial artisit for that matter) about whether they got angry when they performed this or that technique.

When yr angry, you forget all that and go all caveman.

Try doing a juming reverse turning kick after a bottle of JD and you'll see what I mean.

Good shootin on banning that guy before he infested people here with his Jeremy kyle ********.
I seen that show and its just jerry springer all over again but without so many fat people and a host that gets more angry than they do to get the anger issue across.

Well done for not rising to the bait Catwise.

:star:

[MasL]

Lets hope he don't skip IPs and spoof another account again.


Innit ...... yeah? (steet style ghetto talk)

Rest easy bra

[MasL]

I look after people who could be targeted by (sometimes obsessional - wish I was there when John Lennon got shot...Maybe he wouldn't have) persons who may wish the client harm.


Would you have taken the bullet?

[CatWise]

MasL,

I guess I am lucky that you weren't the guy or we would be in a court situation. I didn't mean to offend anyone with my post, but it is a real life situation. I didn't describe the entire night, so you do not know what happened and all the circumstances that lead up to that point. I gave you 5 minutes recap on the night that lasted several hours. It was also not my first encounter with the jerk, which mind you I was able to avoid quite nicely. I am not the type of a person that continuously backs down. Yes, I do try to avoid a fight; I don't go looking for them or start them. Most of the fights I have done were in the ring and not on the street. I don't go looking for trouble, and usually I am very good about avoiding it, but I don't see why a jerk like that should be allowed to act like this. I don't see why I would have to leave. I didn't know that the jerk was the owner’s son until after the fact. As for the criminal assault, it I had to do it over again, I would. If he chose to press charges on me, - does any one know the number of OJ Simpson's Lawyer?
Now, you made a comment what a young kid can read on this forum and you don't seem to think that mine was appropriate. Please tell me what kind of message did your comment about mouth saying "no" but eyes saying “yes” send to these young teenagers?
As for my sense of humor, I think its just fine and when someone is genuinely funny (and not being a jerk) and find it funny even if it is at my expense.

[MasL]

Well it wouldn't have been up to the guy. Anyone can make a complain if it's in public. Maybe you could have just slapped his face? That stings (or so I'm told:mad:). Also like I said, he's probably still doing it. To someone else.

Anyway .. all's well that ends well.

[CatWise]

What do you mean it would have been up to the guy?
Slapping a guy in the face is soo..... ineffective. I guarantee you that this guy has been slapped in the face more then ones, even had a drink thrown in his face. Mind you that I have also been drinking, (over wise I would have been able to "control" this whole thing better and he would have felt the pain, but probably not have gotten the bloody nose). I reacted the way I reacted because after a while the muscle memory takes over and these kinds of moves become instinctive.
Also, if I just slapped him in the face or complained to the bartender, I guarantee you that he still would be doing this to someone else. Maybe now he will think twice before he touches someone, because some of us girls are a little bit tougher then we look.
But why am I explaining myself? I stand by my reaction.
Also, I am not bragging in my post. If I wanted to brag, I would talk about my sparring stats or my days from boxing. I would brag about my 7 year old son - now if you get me on that topic, I could brag for HOURS! But not about something like that.

[Saccade]

Oh pleeease Catwise - tell us of your son.

As for Jason - he's away at the moment MasL, but I'll let him know you've asked after him.

Don't you think though, that when confronted with a situation that gets you riled or any kind of adrenal response (and we're trained to fight, not flight) that the first technique that comes to hand is the one that is used...

I know that I don't spend my days slapping people in the face.

I did try it though and found I could only do three boards before it made my hand hurt too much to bother.


Barfights happen every night of the week - I often have to shout out of my window to tell the people to get lost on a Friday (after lots of swearing and me chasing them down the road, naked, with an hammer) night...

It's not such a big deal - if anything, I think Catwise deserves a thumbs up for not allowing herself to be screwed with.


Having to make a concious decision takes a synaptic moment and that can be the difference between your face being slammed into the bar or the other guys.

In other words:
How can you turn off your Martial Knowledge?

Sometimes, when I turn a sharp corner and almost bump into someone - I'll slip and raise into a fighting stance.
Purely because it's instinctive.

The Law takes this into account.

At a Court Martial I knew a guy who was found not guilty of unlawful discharge of weapon and murder because he was spooked and tripple tapped someone who didn't stop when asked to - they just kept walking towards him with their hands in their Kebab-rag.

It was what he was trained to do - and he did it.

The fact the guy was a begger and not a bomber came to light, but the guy should've had the sense to understand that an SA80 was pointed at him and when someone tells you to stop walking - in your own language - you do it.

I'd certainly take a moment to pause if someone says "Freeze!" and pulled a gun on me...

What was I talking about again?
Oh yeah - I like being naked and holding an hammer.

It makes me feel like a porn star, come to do some "DIY".

It scares the hell out of people that you couldn't be bothered to get dressed when you told them to "Stay right bloody there!" and actually come out to clear them off.

GERTCHA!!!

[Saccade]

That video was funny...

God knows what goes on in the minds of some people sometimes.
Jay included.

But that's no reason to make fun of him, MasL.

He's a good bloke and, due to the puckered scars he's got and the stories that go with them, I believe he would've taken the bullet for Lennon.

[CatWise]

Saccade, be careful what you ask for, you might just get it! If I start talking about my awesome 7 year old son, who is also a blue belt in Hapkido and soo quite that he has been approached by several modeling agencies and been in a couple of commercial, we might just have to start a whole new forum about my son alone! -- see now that is bragging.

MasL I read some of your other posts, and man, based on what you write; I wouldn't diss my man Jason. I wonder why you are such a magnet for aggression and hostility.

In the ID Proof string you wrote: I have already told you some time ago that I will not reply to any of your posts. You seem to have personal issues with me and I don't particularly care for it. As for your last remarks. I'm hardly "having a go" at Cat Wise am I? What a ridiculous statement and one that is all too illustrative.

Why do you have to twist posts into something they are not? Are you really so deprived of female contact (apparently the girl wouldn't even touch you to slap you face)? There are solutions for that.

Now, read Saccade's post, that is humor. Take some notes and see if you learned something.

But to be honest, I really am not bothered by your comments and if anything I have a good laugh when I read them. I still don't find the posts funny or intelligent in anyway, just that there is someone like you that actually THINKS they are.

Hope you stick around a bit longer. I have my popcorn ready, good cup of coffee and I am just going to sit back and watch - read - what ever.

[MasL]

Cat Wise: Huh? You've lost me completely I'm afraid

Anyway, I've had enough excitement for one day thank you very much. So as much as I would like to continue our mild flirting I'm afraid I'm going to have to knock it on the head for today.

Ciao meow

[Saccade]

Cat Wise, meet Wise Guy...

[Saccade]

Anyway...

I was walking down the street and this encounter...

Here's what it was and my thoughts on it and how I learned from it and how it made me a better person:

[insert post]