Makiwara - Pros & Cons

[SilentFuryTSD]

First off, I have heard the "myth of the makiwara"; meaning that training with a makiwara can be detrimental. I know a lot of people swear by it.

So, which is it, guys? :confused:

Also, those who train with a makiwara... what is your daily/weekly regimen? I just got myself an excellent one, and would like some tips.

Thanks, and Merry Christmas, everyone! :)

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Can't help you with training with a makiwara, however the reason that some people don't like it is related to some of the effects it can have. Look at some of the threads on conditioning to see both sides of the story.

[SilentFuryTSD]

Thank you. I am brand new to this site, so am having a bit of trouble maneuvering it. I did see some references in threads on conditioning about the makiwara, but no explanations as to why it is considered good or bad. I'll keep looking....

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Basically, summed up:

Pros:
It can make you a lot tougher, and that really does mean a lot.

Cons:
It can cause rather nasty problems later in life, or even soon, ranging from brittle bones, to bone cancer. Note the can here, not necessarily will. Nothing is certain.

[SilentFuryTSD]

Thanks! :)

[47Ronin]

I use makiwara. Ask your Sensei how he thinks you should train with it. Other wise just start off doing basic reverse punches on each hand. That's how I started ;)

[SilentFuryTSD]

Thanks! I do reverse punches, palm strikes, and ridge hand strikes, ATM. I do about 50-100 a day.

How many do you do?

[paul paterson]

Osu,

Sorry LilBunnyRabbit But training with and on the makiwara DOES NOT cause brittle bones to bone cancer. Unless you are medically qualified to say and even then it would be wrong to say then please refrain from making such a statement.

The makiwara helps builds up the forearm muscles, the focus and speed of your punches and a host of many other goodies, it does not cause medical problems. Unless you are doing the training wrong or have been shown to do it wrong then Yes you can hurt yourself but not to the severity of what you have said.

Osu.
Paul Paterson.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Sorry LilBunnyRabbit But training with and on the makiwara DOES NOT cause brittle bones to bone cancer. Unless you are medically qualified to say and even then it would be wrong to say then please refrain from making such a statement.

No, but it does increase the risk. I just prefer that people know the potential risks of what they're doing so that they can make their own decision. I have the same attitude to smoking, so long as someone knows the various health issues of it, I've got no problem with them doing it. So long as its not too near me of course.

Any form of conditioning carries risk with it. Some forms more than others. Makiwara is one of the minor ones.

[Andrew Green]

Makiwara is safe, if trained safely.

It is not a conditioning tool, it is to develop penetration power on karate style punches.

It is not a piece of equipment I like or use though.

Makiwara should have lots of spring, and a cushioned impact area. Those solid things you hang on the wall are not a good idea.

Just remember, it is NOT a conditioning tool, it is for increasing power. Anyone that tells you its primary purpose is conditioning doesn't know what they are talking about.

[SilentFuryTSD]

With all due respect, sir (and I DO mean this in the most respectful manner), what qualifications do you have to tell me that? I have heard from many others that it is for conditioning. You are actually the first to say that conditioning has nothing to do with it, if I understood you correctly.

Also... I know that traditional makiwaras were made with a covering of straw, usually rice straw, specifically because of the healing properties of the straw.

That may or may not be myth, but I do know straw was used. In any case, if it is not for conditioning, why are they made with clothesline, cord, rope, straw, etc., instead of baby-soft cotton padding or something?

Respectfully,
~Jamie~

[Andrew Green]

Straw is there for padding. Why? well what other soft material was readily available in a small country destroyed by a war.

Also define conditioning.

Is hitting a heavy bag (with gloves and wraps) conditioning? If so then I agree, Makiwara is a conditioning excercise.

[SilentFuryTSD]

Conditioning--something to strengthen you. Physically, as in your endurance, your skin, etc. Mentally, for mental endurance, stamina, courage. Essentially, enhancing your physical or mental readiness.

Basically, it's all conditioning. And yes, straw was there for padding. You must have missed the "healing properties" comment.

I, however, did not miss your point that it is not for conditioning. I did some more research online. Cursory, yes, but at least it's there. For instance, from:
http://www.ctr.usf.edu/shotokan/makiwara.html, I find: "Makiwara is a punching board. It is a piece of equipment essential in toughening the hands, strengthening the wrists and giving training in hand techniques."

and
"Technically speaking, makiwara training builds strength and power the same way hitting the heavy bag does for a boxer."

From http://www.kwon.com/kwon/europa-UK/training/makiwara/

"Makiwara: For hardening striking points."

From http://www.karatebreaking.com/conditioning.html,

"Conditioning is what allows you to strike powerfully without incurring injury....KARATE METHOD: MAKIWARA[click] Simple, direct, can be done anywhere, hard style."

These are just a few examples, and the first one agrees with your point AND mine.

Could it be that the makiwara is for both conditioning and increasing speed & power?

Cheers,
~Jamie~

P.S. Lest I forget, if you check out that last site and click where it says "CLICK", you will find the mention to its healing properties.

[Andrew Green]

There is lots of bad information in Traditional circles, one of its biggest obstacles right now.

But regardless, banging your knuckles into hard things for the purpose of "toughening" them is a bad idea, which you will regret later on.

Been there, done that, got the messed up wrists/knuckles because of it, won't do it again.

[SilentFuryTSD]

*Nods*

Now there's something I can understand! :) I don't think it is always bad.... I know that in our school, we punch the makiwaras rather lightly, just to build up a toughness. Heavy bags we light into.

It's almost the idea of building a callous, for us.

Well, said, Andrew Green.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Andrew Green
There is lots of bad information in Traditional circles, one of its biggest obstacles right now.


Or rather, there's lot's of misunderstood information in Traditional circles. ;)

[Andrew Green]

I'd say there is a good amount of both ;)

One usually as a result of the other.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Andrew Green
I'd say there is a good amount of both ;)

One usually as a result of the other.

One is as a result of the other!

[Andrew Green]

Just no pleasing some people....

You are just far too fussy lately Andy, go get yourself some eggnog :D

[sasori_te]

It's not a callous that you're looking for with makiwara use. Punching a makiwara helps several things. It helps your over-all punching technique. It also conditions the muscles, bones and sinews to better withstand full force blows to hard targets. Note that I said better withstand. It doesn't make you indestructable. It is just another of the many training aids from traditional karate. Like any training aid it has to be used properly to be of benefit. Incorrect use can damage the bones and sinews and possibly cause you problems due to arthritis or nerve damage. I have never heard of makiwara training causing brittle bones or bone cancer. Good luck training.

[SilentFuryTSD]

:) I said is LIKE a callous. Um, that was an attempt, admittedly poort, at an analogy on my behalf. Like, you form callouses when shoveling, or paddling a kayak, etc.

[binski20]

If you go out and try to beat the heck out of a makiwara first time out, your gonna hurt yourself. If you push farther than your body should go, you'll hurt yourself. Take it easy with it, use it to train. You wouldn't do 500 pushups your first day right? Same as you wouldn't go full force for 100 reps on a makiwara first day. Work up to it and according to your body. Use caution to prevent injury. As for the cancer thing, all I have to say is that is ridiculous.

[Cain]

Ok, we don't need to turn this into another great big conditioning debate do we? ;)

Makiwara is used by some to condition, but it's main purpose is a training tool to develop focus and power. I have used it only on numorous occasions though and it ain't that hard to condition with though I would'nt recommend going full power with it ;)

|Cain|

[Knight_Errant]

hey man, here's an interesting article on the subject:
http://www.24fightingchickens.com/101/28_makiwara.html

[shotokanwarrior]

why the hell would makiwara cause cancer?
shotokanwarrior

[animefreak88]

makiwara training is bad for you if you punch it harder than you're ready to. if you hit a makiwara to the point that the next day your knuckles hurt then you're hitting to hard. that kind of training can be detrimental to the bones. if you ever get to see the learning channel (might have been discovery, but i think it was TLC) special called extreme martial arts, watch it. they go into the scientific aspect of conditioning. when those bones are broken down from impact, the bone replaces itself (kinda like muscle) with more dense calcium deposits. it makes the bone harder and sometimes even a small bit larger. on a makiwara, you have to make sure it has lots of spring though. the spring effect greatly relieves the amount of impact your wrist has to endure. the spring effect of a makiwara is like the difference between running on a gravel road or running on a treadmill, the treadmill is better for your feet because the impact is much less. and while on the topic of makiwaras, does anyone know if those clapper makiwaras with the padded front and adjustable springs are any good? i'm thinking about buying one.

[Knight_Errant]

why the hell would makiwara cause cancer?
shotokanwarrior
The process of generating abnormal amounts of calcium in your osteoblasts to repare bone damage (are you listening? BONE DAMAGE! WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SODDING UP YOUR GOD DAMN BOOOOOONES!) can encourage cancer. Basically any abnormal chemical stress on the body (such as breathing cigarette smoke into your lungs, or for that matter genereating calcium to repair damge caused by punching something hard without padding) can cause cancer

[animefreak88]

apparently, knight is more familiar with the calcium deposit aspect of it than i am, so i'll assume he's right about it causing cancer. but why would someone hit something that wasn't padded?

[Knight_Errant]

People do, in knuckle conditioning. Mind you, the makiwara isn't VERY padded. The level of padding I was thinking about was in terms of a heavy bag with bag gloves.

[animefreak88]

i'm thinking about getting one of those clapper makiwaras you put on the wall. the ones with the plack padding and adjustable spring recoil (not to be confused with the lame foam ones with dragons and kanjis on the padding). they look like they have more padding than a traditional makiwara. am i wrong in assuming that they do?

[Knight_Errant]

I dunno mate, sorry. Never seen one. However, I do have to give you the standard caution according to the power vested in me by the international leauge of annoying little gits:
GET A HEAVY BAG.

[animefreak88]

i have a wavemaster standing back because i have no where to put a standard hanging heavy bag. the wavemaster doesn't quite do it for me though, goes over a lil too easily. plus, i can't use it in the house (my house shakes, lol) and its a hassle to drag the thing outside. whereas i'm hoping to get a clapper makiwara and i'll just nail it to a tree in my backyard.

[Mike O'Leary]

*Nods*

Now there's something I can understand! :) I don't think it is always bad.... I know that in our school, we punch the makiwaras rather lightly, just to build up a toughness. Heavy bags we light into.

It's almost the idea of building a callous, for us.

Well, said, Andrew Green.



Andrew has the right Idea. Using makiwara regularily first off is a gradual build up over time as to the impact. If I were to look for a term as to how to strike it "push" would be closer to what should be done in the beginning rather than punch. If you are cutting your knuckles on the makiwara you are hitting to hard to soon. Not only that but even after time repeated "punchin" will do damage to shoulders and hands. Conditioning as in other sports is better attained with high reps and low impact. For example conditioning the body with weights over a long period of time is done by high reps low weight, after this taxing the body with low reps and high weights can be done but now you are working towards something specific such as a cometiton of weight lifting. Practicing with the mac is the same.

Condition with specific and low impact exercises with high reps and your hands and arms and shoulders will perform as you want them to when needed. If you go maximum impact repeatedly you will eventually cause damage.

I am talking from experience, I am currently in a lull training with the mac because of damage I did to my shoulders. Basiclly after training high impact for 2 years I had moved my clavicals so much that they were rubbing bone on bone, very baffling for the doctors who were not aware of my training. It took me a while to make the connection also. I stopped training mac for several months simply because it was painful to do it and things got better. My clavicals have fallen back into place now and I am now training slower, with less impact, more of a push.

In the last 10 years I met a man named Mike ODell, he has trained makiwara for many years and is currently in his 60's. I have seen him use it to cure arthritis buildups in his joints. The arthritis was not cured simply the calcium buildups that occur were broken up and movement was restored to the joint. I have seen this in several people that he works with. Mr. Odell does not have callus on the knuckles, but the knuckles themselves are large, not painful and when he contacts its like being kicked by a mule.

I have sent many people to train with him regarding makawara, many feel he is to soft, many say he is to slow. The point is that he has mastered the conditioning side, it is simply not the flasy, high speed pounding that many of these people do as a demonstration. He can do this also, but says that is demo.... not training.

This is my experience over the last 20 years of training Mak.

Mike O'Leary

[Nevada_MO_Guy]

I did some more research online. Cursory, yes, but at least it's there. For instance, from:
http://www.ctr.usf.edu/shotokan/makiwara.html,

http://www.karatebreaking.com/conditioning.html,

Nice links...you need to take out the comma at the end for them to work though.

[Anth]

Lads! Check the last post date ;)

[Evil Betty]

In the last 10 years I met a man named Mike ODell, he has trained makiwara for many years and is currently in his 60's. I have seen him use it to cure arthritis buildups in his joints. The arthritis was not cured simply the calcium buildups that occur were broken up and movement was restored to the joint. I have seen this in several people that he works with. Mr. Odell does not have callus on the knuckles, but the knuckles themselves are large, not painful and when he contacts its like being kicked by a mule.
That's cool, I didn't know that could be done.

I myself haven't used a makiwara yet. I've been studying Karate for only a few weeks now, and I need to work on getting my form and movements good and consistent before I start impact training/conditioning.

[Nevada_MO_Guy]

Lads! Check the last post date ;)
Wow, good stuff.

[onyomi]

Is what prolonged makiwara training will get you.

[Mike O'Leary]

Is what prolonged makiwara training will get you.



Let me re phrase that..."Is what improper makiwara training will get you.


Mike O'Leary

[Mike O'Leary]

Lads! Check the last post date ;)



Does this make a difference? I always figure that a conversation that lasts along time is one well thought out.

Seems it kinda came alive again.

Mike O'leary

[Tommy_P]

why the hell would makiwara cause cancer?
shotokanwarrior


If you smoke the rope? :D :D


Tommy

[Shuri]

I had a doctor explain to me that a MAkiwara would be effective simply because it would place stress on the knuckles to a point for the knuckles to adapt. I forget the process its called.

But its an anatomical fact that increasing stress will place the bones in a position to rebuild stronger. Maybe someone can look it up in an anatomy book or something, but it was explained well and their is a scientific reason.

As for causing injury, only if you punch with incorrect alignment and posture.

[seibukan]

My sensei says he use to punch a makiwara 2000 times a day (one hand) for nearly a decade (maybe longer I'll have to ask). It's been at least 30 years since he has trained with makiwara, His hands are fine and there are no longer signs he ever did.

He says to just punch at the surface; the makiwara will yield and bounce back hitting your fist a second time. He says stop before you break the skin, this stops training and causes calluses (which you don’t want). The goal is to somewhat flatten/build up the first two knuckles to become one striking surface.

Each Strike should be with made with proper technique, focus, and full power.
The conditioning comes in as the knuckle tendons begin to flatten, the skin toughens, the bone hardens and your wrist strengthens.

Do it wrong and injury is guaranteed.

My makiwara is a 8’ 4”x4” post buried about 4.5 feet in the ground , About 3 feet from the top it’s tapered from 4”x4” to 1”x4” the padding is just a obi tightly wrapped 3 layers thick. (just like his)

[TheCount]

I just got myself an excellent one, and would like some tips.

Take it back to the shop and get a heavy bag

[Shuri]

A makiwara is a valuable tool. You cant develop your striking surfaces to the extent on a heavy bag that you can on a makiwara.

Why do you dislike the makiwara?

[Evil Betty]

At my dojo we use a very stiff makiwara, which we don't actually strike. We do our form, set the fist on the surface of the makiwara, then push. I think it mainly strengthens our muscles and stances, but does give a bit of bite on the knuckles. I imagine that over the years, it makes the knuckles a bit stronger or larger.

We also do a lot of knuckle push ups.

For actual striking we just use a heavy bag.

[TheCount]

A makiwara is a valuable tool. You cant develop your striking surfaces to the extent on a heavy bag that you can on a makiwara.

Why do you dislike the makiwara?

Because its use can destroy your knuckles and joints if you hit it properly

[Shuri]

Ive known many people that have used the Makiwara for years and develop no joint problems, cancer, or anything other than extremely well conditioned knuckles.

I dont think the Makiwara is a problem. I think people using it incorrectly is a problem. You should never try to cause a callose or go to the point of the skin becoming red for lengths of time.

Its a tool... but it can be misused. We are incouraged to punch on a heavy bag and do knuckle push-ups for sometime before even considering the Makiwara. Alot of problems in joints stem from people not having strong enough wrists prior to use, this can be helped by first practicing with bags and knuckles push-ups for at least a year.

[Mufty]

Straw is there for padding. Why? well what other soft material was readily available in a small country destroyed by a war.

Ok straw aint soft especially when attached to a makiwara post. As already stated above the reason for straw is due to its anticeptic properties. Also the Makiwara was in use long before the wwII.

The makiwara is a tool to help you condition your knuckles, and training on the makiwara should only be done under the strict tutalidge of an instructor with real knowledge, other wise you may recive a serious injury. Secondly your instructor should moniter your progress and provide mok-joul a specially prepared medication that is applied after each session.

There are basically two methods of conditioning the hands.

Method one is known as The Savage technique this is the old way.

Method Two is the Mild Routine this is the method prefered today.

To condition the hands is a more traditional value, and should only be undertaking under correct supervision.

I have been using the makiwara for over twenty years and have not suffered any serious injuries or conditions, in fact my hands are still very very healthy.

:Alien: