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Andrew Green
17-Sep-2002, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by pgm316

Has anybody learnt boxing type techniques? Do you think it compliments the classical martial arts?

Boxing has changed a lot over the past 100 years.

It wasn't until the end of the 19th century that the Marquis of Queensbury rules began to get acceptance.

Prior to that the "London Prize Rules" where used, and before that the "broughton" rules.

Some of the major rule changes relevant to this where:

1) Required wearing of gloves, prior to this matches where bare-knuckled.

2) Removal of grappling techniques, Throws where allowed, but there where restrictions. (ex. No grabbing below the belt, No falling on someone knees first, etc.)

3) Timed rounds, Under LPR rounds ended when one person touched the ground with anything other then his feet. 30 sec break, then 8 sec to be back and ready. Fight ends when one or both cannot return. (Even if they where helped up and procceded to fall on there face as soon as the other guy touched them.

The last is probably not as relevant as the other two, and there where other changes.

1 - Gloves not only protect the opponent, but also the hand. A powerful hook to the head without gloves is a bad idea for the puncher, as well as hitting into the mouth (teeth into knuckles hurts both). However you could hit more specific targets, the neck, the "mark" (solar plexus)

2 - This changes the ranges the match is fought at. The close in hooks and uppercuts wouldn't have happened, Once in that close the fighters would clinch and someone would get thrown, placed in "chancery" (headlock) and pounded or other things not allowed in modern rules.

3 - Knockouts would be rare. Fighters didn't get a 10 count to return to their feet, they got a total of 38 seconds before the had to be ready to go. Even if you did land a KO punch, it didn't mean a win all the time.

New rules allowed players to fight closer, to keep the range without risk of being grabbed. It also changed how fights where won. A KO became more appealing as a goal, the gloves protected the hands in hard hits, and harder hits where possible as fighters could get into that range without being thrown.

LPR used a more upright stance, hands where more extended, with the read hand usually protecting the mark. Straight punches where thrown to do damage, not to probe, the lead on doing most of the work.

To be honest, looking at the pictures, old style boxing looks an awful lot like old style karate.

Some other points:

Punches where mostly thrown vertical, adjusting to the target if needed.

The major 2 major throws that seem to have been used where a "buttock" (hip throw), and a "cross heel" (reaping throw)

Fights took place center ring, not up against the ropes.

Anyways, Modern boxing has some very refined methods. It's certainely worth understanding what they do and how they do it. It's also VERY important to understand why they do it, and why you don't. Modern Boxing works very well in a modern boxing match. That doesn't neccessarily mean its the best system outside of that setting.

pgm316
17-Sep-2002, 12:07 PM
Strange how things come around! Sounds like boxing used to be like how the UFC is now, much more interesting! :)

We’ve got to remember boxing is a sport and has many weaknesses when used in a no rules situation. Obviously there is only punching and then the use of gloves totally changes the way you block. Still the strengths shouldn’t be ignored in my humble opinion. Strengths such as the use of punches, the fast and powerful combinations. The use attacks as defence (jabs etc). The stances & footwork and also body movement, which are used as effective defensive techniques.

Jim
17-Sep-2002, 12:39 PM
Andrew,

You seem very versed on the topic. What is the older style of boxing where the elbows were held close to the stomach and the main strike was an 'uppercut' punch - don't know how else to describe it.

Also, does anyone train in this style any more and why did it lose popularity as it seemed to be effective.

(whew)

johndoch
17-Sep-2002, 02:53 PM
there are a few boxers that use the punch you are describing I think you could be talking about the shovel punch as used by Jack Dempsy. Johney Nelson recently knocked someone out using it. I dont think the style of old fashioned boxers have disappeared the style can still be seen in various boxers.

I think that the style (old) is just a part of what makes up the modern boxing style.

Andrew Green
18-Sep-2002, 04:41 AM
Originally posted by Jim
Andrew,

You seem very versed on the topic. What is the older style of boxing where the elbows were held close to the stomach and the main strike was an 'uppercut' punch - don't know how else to describe it.

Also, does anyone train in this style any more and why did it lose popularity as it seemed to be effective.

(whew)

I'm not really sure. Do you have a time period?

I'd guess early into the queensbury rules, whether its Jack Dempsy's shovel punch or something else you're referring to.

There has only been the 3 sets of rules for the most part. Broughton, London Prize Fighting and Marquis of Queensbury.

Why would it disappear? Because better methods where found to function under those rules most likely.

Once the Queensbury rules took over fighters would likely still be trying to use tactics that had worked under LPR. Over time the tactics would evolve as fighters became more accustomed to the new rules.

Oh, and PGM, there was an equivalent of todays NHB compeitions, "Rough and Tumble".

and the Greeks had Pankration long before that...

Freeform
19-Sep-2002, 02:08 PM
and the Greeks had Pankration long before that...


Which was basically UFC without any rules!

The Romans had there own version, which was virtually identical, but used 'Loaded Gloves', lead weighted glove that could cause death with one blow. Bet they had great avoidances ;)

Jim
19-Sep-2002, 10:02 PM
Andrew,

The time period was the early 1900's with the boxing I described.

Which was basically UFC without any rules!

and sometimes without clothes!

Andrew Green
20-Sep-2002, 05:01 AM
Jim,

The Queensbury Rules became the standard in about 1890. So the style you are looking for would have used them. Boxing simply continued to evolve and those methods became outdated.

Freeform,

The Greeks started with soft leather wrapped knuckles, then it got harder, and eventually had metal bits wrapped into it.

Pankration went bare knuckles, no wraps.
And yes they competed naked, like every one els at the olympics.

Freeform
21-Sep-2002, 09:32 AM
I remeber reading somewhere that the load gloves where introduced by the romans who thought the greek style was weak because of their lack of it. Anyway theres a Pankration thread in others...

Acekicken
30-Oct-2002, 08:23 AM
Boxing is Verry good for a Martial Artist
It has great way's to get in good condition.

U learn what it means to be hit
U develope better uper body strikes

What i found most difacult about boxing
was the limitaion in the use of my tools.