Gymnastics In The Martial Arts

[Chazz]

What do you all think of people adding gymnastics moves to martial arts when the compete in a MARTIAL ARTS TOURNAMENT?

:cool:

[waya]

I think they are great to watch, but I'm not sure that they have much real connection to the actual art or to defensive use, although doing the more complicated technique could improve the performance of the basic. To me it is a promotional evolution of techniques more than a usefull one. But then again I'm not a gymnast so I could be wrong lol. But from a viewing standpoint it has to be difficult and it's fun to see.

Rob

[Chazz]

I love to watch it but when its done in a tournament all traditional martial artist will loose 95% of the time. I think that they are great in Demos but should be left out of the traditional forms.

Thats just my thougths
Chazz

[Melanie]

I am no gymnast either! LOL

Gymnastics is the art of balance and flow is it not? We are (eventually) expected to do both in our kata so I can see the validity of gymnastic movement, but how it could be put accross in a defensive way must be quite challenging. Something I would like to see eventually.

Is there any room for this in MA - that would be worth having a go at answering if only I was experienced enough....:(

Melanie

[waya]

I have a younger aunt that does it (she's 21 in May). But I haven't seen her actually apply it in a defense situation. She did incorporate martial arts techniques into gymnastic dance and won several competitions that way before she stopped competing though. Maybe there are uses for it but I agree that they should be seperated from traditional forms and techniques.

[Freeform]

It depends what you mean by gymnastics. While studying the martial arts we're expected to achieve a high level of balance, co-ordination and physical fitness which are also the key points of gymnastics. I think that its good to incorporate it into your training as long as its just an aid to help you improve balance, co-ordination etc. As long as we don't start teaching people to do cartwheels and backflips when someone tries to mug them we should be ok :)

[waya]

lol Those are the things I was thinking of. The flips and things of that sort that you see in demos now. 720 degree arial kicks etc. Those are the things my aunt did when she did dance routines, she would use the gymnastics techniques (backflips, arial flips etc.) and add kicks to them. I have to admit, I may not see it as being very usefull, but I have alot of respect for anyone that can do it.... I'd break my neck if I tried lol.

[Chazz]

Yeah the kind of thing that im talking about about the back flips, and cartwheels, and all of those arial kicks and punchs. I live to watch them and i do give them a hand that they can do it but most of them have no practical use what so ever. They may say that the back flip has a double downward kick to it, but when would something like that ever work and how likely would it be for someone to land it in a fight?

-Chazz

[Freeform]

A pet annoyance of mine is when people find out that you practice martial arts and they expect you to be able to perform buffy the vampire slayer or Jet Li choreographed flying spinning techniques

[Chazz]

*LOL* Tell me about it or ask you to fly and stand on leaves like on Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon

-Chazz

[Andy Murray]

What are you all bitching about?

I'm 67 years old, with one leg ( and that's wooden ) and I can still do a back flip an land in the splits.

i tell you, you young people... no appreciation.......mumble..............mumble

[waya]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! Sounds like those old "I walked 12 miles to school up hill both ways in the snow" things. I usually respond to the backflips by telling the person they have it switched around..... The person I am fighting does all the backflips after a shot to the stomach followed by a round or front kick to the face when they are bent over lol. At least it ends the subject quickly lol. :-)

[Kat]

I think people have to understand that MA is no longer about pure Combat.A perfect example is modern Wu Shu which will be included in the upcoming Oylimpics.Wushu is more or less dance routines that derive from Chinese MA.Don"t get me wrong,the average joe could not perform this stuff,I would put it on the same level as gymnastic floor routines.These people are strong fit and flexible,many do spar,but its not combat training.
Tae Bo and Boxercise is other examples,I train with many women and men who have undoubtly increased their fittness but have little impact value in their uppercutts.
I just want to make the point that people join and stay at MA schools now for a variety of different reasons then just pure I want to learn to defend myself vibe.:woo:
ps just wanted to use that icon,no offence
As long as people recognize the differing preceptions.all cool.:D

[Chazz]

Well as i said before, I understand Wushu. BUT, cartwheels, tucks and thing of that nature are not Wushu. Yeah they look like a dance, but there is a difference when a korean styleist does a back hand spring round off and says they are kicks. Thats what i dont like

[waya]

I don't train purely for defense.... Although that is the majority of the type of training I do, the largest reason for my training is to better myself as a person and to learn and expand my mind. The fighting abilities are a large part but to me are nothing without the mental aspect...

Rob

[Chazz]

Point taken.
To me martial arts is a mental art as well. It learn the history of a country, a style, and the meanings behind things can be mind bending. That a reason i love so much.
-Chazz

[Kat]

Hey Chazz
I understand about the Backflip deal,but I find some schools see this sort of stuff as methods of training as in balance coordination intent,which they can then apply to fighting.Thats not saying that they will do a backflip and kick them in the head.
The other aspect is that,hey it looks cool to do those things.
Waya
I am down here in OZ but you may have seen some interesting rolls jumps flips at that Bujinkan seminar,its often used as warmups in our dojos.

Your right,I don't buy it when they say it is a combat effective application

[waya]

Kat,
They did some rollouts from falls which were practical but there ws not one single backflip lol. I do more acrobatics in TKD than those guys do in that art.
You guys have a large following for Hapkido down there I have heard...

I guess in a way gymnastics could be compared to some of the flying and spinning kicks in TKD, the tornado kick, tornado axe kick etc. nice to watch but how effective will they be when you try them on someone with experience?

[Chazz]

We (TKD) do use a lot a jump spin kicks and we do practice simple rolls, but we dont do the back flips and cart wheels or anything like that *LOL*

-Chazz

[waya]

lol the day I get told to do a cartwheel I will retire to a rocking chair on the porch and let them younguns do that stuff LOL

[Chazz]

Im still a young pup, (as so many keep tellin me) but i think i will crack up if someone tells me to do that. Then i'll do a jump spinn back kick over their head and say that why i dont do that
*LOL*

Just playin
-Chazz

[waya]

lol I am only a bit older than you.... but still too old for that LOL

[Freeform]

Well said Waya. I believe we don't teach/are being taught enough of the mental aspects (but thats a topic for another forum page). Me, I've never understood the whole backwards flip thing to avoid an attack, whatever happened to good old fashioned footwork, back in my day ....

Freeform

[Andy Murray]

Show me someone who can backflip faster than I can punch and I'll show you my fifth nipple!

In defence of Acrobatics, I think being competent at complex movements, makes you confident at simple ones. Confidence is of primary importance in all aspects of the arts.

[Chazz]

*LOL* Now that could get interesting!

[waya]

*covers his eyes and screams*

I agree with it making a person better at basic techniques.

[Andy Murray]

What do you all think of people adding gymnastics moves to martial arts when they compete in a MARTIAL ARTS TOURNAMENT?

In points competitions, you are less likely to get your face ripped off for doing something err.......exotic.

We used to call it showboating. If you are winning a match, then you can afford to lose a few point's trying out flashy crowd-pleasing stuff.

Dragon Sweeps,, dropping into splits, Spinning Kicks, Cartwheel kicks, Spinning Axe kicks, and Chi Balls.

Pity all the real fun stuff is gonna get you killed if you try and make it work for you in real life, but just because you see someone show off in a competition doesn't mean they don't realise this for themselves.

Enjoy it while you can, and pay the chiropractor later. :D

Andy

[Eddie]

Cartwheels, flips, kicks etc.

While I totally understand what most of you guys mean with regards to the relation between flips and combat, I don’t agree at all.

We do Martial Arts. To be able to be an effective warrior (for lack of a better descriptive word), we need to not only just train or skill, but also our minds and our bodies. There should be a natural balance between focus, flexibility, coordination, strength and power, HEALTH and basic body mechanics. In the army, we did many ‘useless’ training sets (like fetching a leaf from the top of the mountain – 25kilos away) which were specifically aimed at making us better soldiers.

Cartwheels are great routines to teach coordination and all that goes with it. In my school, there was a little boy (6 years) who could not do any cartwheels. After months of training and trying, he eventually got the feel for it. His Kung Fu improved tenfold.

Martial Arts is a science, just as any Combat training. As a martial Artist, I want act, look, be, and react like a warrior. It is essential that I maintain that balance between body, mind and spirit.

Another point that most people missed completely, is that first and foremost, martial arts was created to improve health first, second came longevity, and then came combat.

[morphus]

I would say, that although you don't need gymnastics for self defence at all, its certainly a plus to be able to jump,move and bend the way a gymnast does. So long as its nots the bigger part of your training and you concentrate on the application of self defence techniques.
Gymnastics do contribute to demos and such making a good advert for any Martial art.