What should I replace with Power Cleans, Deadlifts, and Power Lifts

[Fillythebish]

This is what I do at the moment, I only weight train once a week, rest is other stuff.

Alternate each week... Week 1 is 4 sets x 3-5 reps. Week 2 is 3 sets x 8-12 reps.
Bicep Curl
Tricep Extensions
Shoulder Press
Lateral Raises
Bent Chest Fly
Bench Press
Bench Chest Fly
Squats
Lunges
Leg Extensions
Leg Curls

Basically I want to add Power Cleans, Deadlifts and Power Lifts, and maybe any others you guys might know about. But do I just add them to my list or remove other exercises in exchange for the new ones?

Also must Power Cleans be done only with low reps and high sets? Or can they be done in the 8-12 rep form aswell?

Any help appreciated.

[Slindsay]

Hi, I think before the guys that know there stuff (Not me) can help you, they need to know what your trying to achieve with this routine, what sorts of weights and the amount of weight your using and how long you've been lifting for.

[Yost]

First of all, you have 2 of the 3 "powerlifts" (squats and bench) in your program already and the deadlift is the 3rd, so I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.

Regardless of your goal, I would replace everything but squats, shoulder press, and bench press. Add in deadlifts, power cleans, and pull ups. Make sure you do them correctly. Of course since this is a martial arts forum, I assume that your goal has to do with improving martial arts performance.

How often do you do this each week? Is this what you do in one session, or spread out across the whole week? What are your specific goals?

[Fillythebish]

Well I can figure out the weight I need myself, and I've been weight lifting for a few years.

I'm just wondering if an exercise like the Power Clean removes the need for Squats for example, because you are effectively doing squats during the movement right?

[tom pain]

Can I ask why this forum has an obsession with only doing the 'compound movements'?

I mean I do them, but I still do isolation exercises to supplement them and it works great.

I squat....and do leg extension/curls on a different day.
I do overhead pressing....and lateral raises (side and front) on a different day.
I do pull-ups...and curls.

I don't feel overtrained or anything, and it's worked wonders for me. So I think to remove all isolation exercises (which seems to be the norm over here lately) is a bit needless.

[Yohan]

Hi, I think before the guys that know there stuff (Not me) can help you, they need to know what your trying to achieve with this routine, what sorts of weights and the amount of weight your using and how long you've been lifting for.

You're the man

[Yohan]

This is what I do at the moment, I only weight train once a week, rest is other stuff.

Alternate each week... Week 1 is 4 sets x 3-5 reps. Week 2 is 3 sets x 8-12 reps.
Bicep Curl pull
Tricep Extensions push
Shoulder Press push
Lateral Raises pull
Bent Chest Fly Push
Bench Press push
Bench Chest Fly push
Squats leg
Lunges leg
Leg Extensions leg
Leg Curls leg

Basically I want to add Power Cleans, Deadlifts and Power Lifts, and maybe any others you guys might know about. But do I just add them to my list or remove other exercises in exchange for the new ones?

Also must Power Cleans be done only with low reps and high sets? Or can they be done in the 8-12 rep form aswell?

Any help appreciated.

If you want to add dead lifts, power cleans (what's a power lift?) to your routine, you should first consider how much volume that could potentially be putting on your legs (depending on weights) with squats, lunges, leg extensions, and leg curls.

First off, no, power cleans will not replace squats (and it's actually a dead lift you are doing in the first portion of a power clean) as a maximal strength exercise. They are actually an explosive exercise, where you are moving a sub maximal weight at a very high speed.

You should do your power clean first in your set. You should do your high effort legs after that, followed by your other high effort stuff. If you can handle all that stuff in sets of 5, keep doing it.

You should consider this. You are currently doing 2 pull exercises and 5 push exercises, and with the new exercises you are proposing to add, you'll be doing 5 leg exercises. This could possibly create a strength imbalance in your upper body. I would recommend reducing the number of push exercises, increasing the number of pull exercises, or a combination of the 2. A good starting point would be to add pullups (would probably remove bent chest fly here).

On the power clean, even if you have a coach, I would recommend starting with the hang clean and the jump shrug and high pull (I'm working 2x5 sets of each myself currently).

So here is a basic way you would structure your workout:

Explosive:
Power clean

High effort, compound:
Dead lifts/squats (wouldn't do both of these heavy in the same day, personally)
Pull ups
Bench press

Supplemental pull:
Bicep Curl
Lateral Raises

Supplemental push:
Tricep extensions
Shoulder press
Bent Chest Fly
Bench chest fly

Supplemental legs:
Lunges
Extensions
Curls

I went ahead and added pull ups - just because it's a good idea in general. I would recommend the following structure for this workout:

Explosive:
High pull/jump shrug (get a good high pull or shrug here)
Hang clean (make sure you get your elbows very high on the catch, catch the bar in your fingertips.

High effort, compound:
Dead lifts/squats (wouldn't do both of these heavy in the same day, personally) - 3x5, 4x6, 6x3 type stuff
Pull ups - 3x5+
Bench press - 3x5, 4x6, 6x3

Supplemental pull:
Bicep Curl
Lateral Raises
One Arm DB row

Supplemental push:
Tricep extensions
Shoulder press
Bent Chest Fly/Bench chest fly

Supplemental legs:
Lunges
Extensions
Curls

I would do a mix of 3-5 reps and 8-12 reps for the supplemental exercises. You'll have to get your own feeling there, I don't have much experience with that type of exercise.

As Tom Pain has mentioned here, some people recommend doing mostly compound movements. I'm one of them. The reason I recommend doing mostly compound movements is because I have high intensity MA practice with a total of 5 1.5 hour practices every week. In order to recover from the workouts and perform well at my skill practices, I can't do really high volumes with my weights. That means largely doing a big 3 or 4 lifts, with a circuit on the end if I do 3 lifts.

If you aren't doing high effort MA practices, and want to do the supplemental exercises, go for it. Plus, I advocate some of them, like the leg curls. It's one of the only exercises in standard gym routines that hits the hams, or even the posterior chain in general.

Whew

That was a frickin page.

[Yost]

Can I ask why this forum has an obsession with only doing the 'compound movements'?

I mean I do them, but I still do isolation exercises to supplement them and it works great.

I squat....and do leg extension/curls on a different day.
I do overhead pressing....and lateral raises (side and front) on a different day.
I do pull-ups...and curls.

I don't feel overtrained or anything, and it's worked wonders for me. So I think to remove all isolation exercises (which seems to be the norm over here lately) is a bit needless.

Well, I assumed his main goal was strength when I suggested he can all of the isolation exercises. It's true that isolation exercises won't necessarily lead to over training, and it's also true that they can strengthen muscles.... But if you want to squat, deadlift, and bench more weight, then for 99% of people the best way to do it is to squat, deadlift, and bench. Any of your "recovery budget" that is spent on isolation exercises could also be spent on more volume of the big 3.

It is true that isolation exercises can bring up a lagging muscle's strength, but for virtually everyone (especially people asking about programming on a martial arts forum) what is really needed for strength is compound movement. Also, we don't know nearly enough about him to properly prescribe appropriate isolation exercises.

[Fillythebish]

Ok what I understand a Power Clean is where your bar starts off on the floor, you dead lift it upwards then flip it onto your chest, like the olympic lifters right?

And the Power Lift is where you start off with the bar on the floor, dead lift it upwards but instead of flipping it you carry on with the dead lift till your knuckles are up near your chin and your legs are straight or on tip toes?

I've never done these sort of power compound exercises before, so I'd start off lowish. I tried a few Power Cleans today just to experiment and managed a few with 60kg.

I can currently bench 80kg for 3-5 reps.
I dont squat with a bar because I dont have the equipment for it, but I use dumbells and have 30kg in each hand hanging by my side for 3-5 reps.
Bicep curls I can do 24kg for 3-5 reps.

I'm not too fussed about the way I look, I'm more interested in my strength and speed performance.

[Yost]

Ok what I understand a Power Clean is where your bar starts off on the floor, you dead lift it upwards then flip it onto your chest, like the olympic lifters right?

And the Power Lift is where you start off with the bar on the floor, dead lift it upwards but instead of flipping it you carry on with the dead lift till your knuckles are up near your chin and your legs are straight or on tip toes?

I've never done these sort of power compound exercises before, so I'd start off lowish. I tried a few Power Cleans today just to experiment and managed a few with 60kg.

I can currently bench 80kg for 3-5 reps.
I dont squat with a bar because I dont have the equipment for it, but I use dumbells and have 30kg in each hand hanging by my side for 3-5 reps.
Bicep curls I can do 24kg for 3-5 reps.

I'm not too fussed about the way I look, I'm more interested in my strength and speed performance.
This is a power clean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TlbDQUWs0s
Yes, it is an Olympic Lift.


There is no lift called "the power lift" as far as I know, but rather a group of lifts performed in "powerlifting" competitions. These are the Deadlift, Squat, and Bench Press. The closest thing I can think of to what you describe is a sumo deadlift high pull:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq_aiYLzgk8



For programming, like I said before, I would stick with the compound movements... Deadlift, Squat, Bench, Shoulder Press, Pull Up, Clean (or Power Clean) should be sufficient for building strength and speed (as long as you lift explosively) for quite a long time. Sumo-deadlift high pulls are excellent too, and can be thought of as a clean variation (programming-wise).

Squatting with dumbbells is okay, though it will limit the amount of weight you can use.

[Yohan]

And the Power Lift is where you start off with the bar on the floor, dead lift it upwards but instead of flipping it you carry on with the dead lift till your knuckles are up near your chin and your legs are straight or on tip toes?

I think you are just talking about the high pull, as I mentioned earlier:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/HighPull.html

[blessed_samurai]

You might like Tier Training by Joe Kenn-

You pick 3 exersices a session and build a exercise pool around 3 major types..here is an example

1. total body moves- power cleans, hang cleans, high pulls, snatches and its varieties, deadlift and its varities (sumo, defecit deads, stiff legs,RDLs, etc)

2. upper body- bench, board press, floor press, dbell bench, inclines, push press, millitary, etc

3. lower body- squats, power squats, olympic squats, box squats, low box squats, barbell step ups, lunges, sled work, good mornings, zerchers, etc

Then you have 3 tier rep cycles

1. rep method
2. latic acid tolerance and or dyanmic traing
3. strength work

Then you rotate 1 move from your exersice pool into the rep cycles. As an example-

Day1.
total body/strength work- power cleans- 5 singles at 90%
upperbody/ rep method- push press 4 sets of 8 reps at 70%
lowerbody/ latic acid work - low box squats 12 sets of 2 reps 60% with 45 sec rest

Day2.
total body/ latic acid work- rack pulls from knees 85% for 10 doubles 30 sec rest
upperbody/ strength work- bench press work up to a heavy set of 3 reps
lower body/ rep work - barbell lunges 4 sets of 12 reps

Day 3.
total body/ rep method - sumo deadlifts 5x5 @70%
upperbody- latic acid work dbell press 3 sets of 20+ reps to failure rest 3 - 5 minutes between sets
lowerbody/ strenght work- high box power squats work up to a max set of 3-5
Then just pick new exersices from your pool for the next week and rotate.

Rowing is not neglected as it is either added in as an exercise pairing or at the end. Pick 1 movement and hit it with 3 setsX8-12 reps. The reason rowing is not made up into changing parameters is because of the time spent pulling with the total body.

This makes for a fairly quick session and for those who desire a couple extra movements for biceps and triceps can be added.

[Stuart H]

This is what I do at the moment, I only weight train once a week, rest is other stuff.

Alternate each week... Week 1 is 4 sets x 3-5 reps. Week 2 is 3 sets x 8-12 reps.
Bicep Curl
Tricep Extensions
Shoulder Press
Lateral Raises
Bent Chest Fly
Bench Press
Bench Chest Fly
Squats
Lunges
Leg Extensions
Leg Curls

Basically I want to add Power Cleans, Deadlifts and Power Lifts, and maybe any others you guys might know about. But do I just add them to my list or remove other exercises in exchange for the new ones?

Also must Power Cleans be done only with low reps and high sets? Or can they be done in the 8-12 rep form aswell?

Any help appreciated.

How long have you been training?

[Fillythebish]

Yes the exercises above is what I was talking about.

I have been training for about 5 years, but mostly just basic weight exercises you would see in a gym.

Thanks for the help guys.

One other thing I would like to know, is it safe to do 3-5 reps for a few sets with a heavy weight for the cleans and raises? They look like they put quite a bit of strain on the back.

[Yohan]

You might like Tier Training by Joe Kenn-

You pick 3 exersices a session and build a exercise pool around 3 major types..here is an example

1. total body moves- power cleans, hang cleans, high pulls, snatches and its varieties, deadlift and its varities (sumo, defecit deads, stiff legs,RDLs, etc)

2. upper body- bench, board press, floor press, dbell bench, inclines, push press, millitary, etc

3. lower body- squats, power squats, olympic squats, box squats, low box squats, barbell step ups, lunges, sled work, good mornings, zerchers, etc

Then you have 3 tier rep cycles

1. rep method
2. latic acid tolerance and or dyanmic traing
3. strength work

Then you rotate 1 move from your exersice pool into the rep cycles. As an example-

Day1.
total body/strength work- power cleans- 5 singles at 90%
upperbody/ rep method- push press 4 sets of 8 reps at 70%
lowerbody/ latic acid work - low box squats 12 sets of 2 reps 60% with 45 sec rest

Day2.
total body/ latic acid work- rack pulls from knees 85% for 10 doubles 30 sec rest
upperbody/ strength work- bench press work up to a heavy set of 3 reps
lower body/ rep work - barbell lunges 4 sets of 12 reps

Day 3.
total body/ rep method - sumo deadlifts 5x5 @70%
upperbody- latic acid work dbell press 3 sets of 20+ reps to failure rest 3 - 5 minutes between sets
lowerbody/ strenght work- high box power squats work up to a max set of 3-5
Then just pick new exersices from your pool for the next week and rotate.

Rowing is not neglected as it is either added in as an exercise pairing or at the end. Pick 1 movement and hit it with 3 setsX8-12 reps. The reason rowing is not made up into changing parameters is because of the time spent pulling with the total body.

This makes for a fairly quick session and for those who desire a couple extra movements for biceps and triceps can be added.

I like that -going to have to check out tier training.

[Yohan]

One other thing I would like to know, is it safe to do 3-5 reps for a few sets with a heavy weight for the cleans and raises? They look like they put quite a bit of strain on the back.

Yes - but it's best to be coached on good technique.

[Mi Don't Mi Do]

Well I can figure out the weight I need myself, and I've been weight lifting for a few years.

I'm just wondering if an exercise like the Power Clean removes the need for Squats for example, because you are effectively doing squats during the movement right?

That is incorrect. Go learn the difference between power cleans and cleans.

[Fillythebish]

That is incorrect. Go learn the difference between power cleans and cleans.

Would you mind telling me? All I can find is Power Clean, Hang Clean, Clean and Jerk.

[wires]

This is what I do at the moment, I only weight train once a week, rest is other stuff.

Alternate each week... Week 1 is 4 sets x 3-5 reps. Week 2 is 3 sets x 8-12 reps.
Bicep Curl
Tricep Extensions
Shoulder Press
Lateral Raises
Bent Chest Fly
Bench Press
Bench Chest Fly
Squats
Lunges
Leg Extensions
Leg Curls

Basically I want to add Power Cleans, Deadlifts and Power Lifts, and maybe any others you guys might know about. But do I just add them to my list or remove other exercises in exchange for the new ones?

Also must Power Cleans be done only with low reps and high sets? Or can they be done in the 8-12 rep form aswell?

Any help appreciated.


You're doing too much!

Read up on

www.t-nation.com

that's one of my very favorite weightlifting sites.

Good luck!

[Yost]

Would you mind telling me? All I can find is Power Clean, Hang Clean, Clean and Jerk.

A clean (AKA Full Clean, AKA Squat Clean) starts on the floor, and is received in a full front squat position.

A power clean starts on the floor, and is received in an above parallel front squat position.

A hang clean starts from the hang (bar in your hands) and is received in a full front squat position.

A hang power clean starts from the hang, and is received in an above parallel front squat position.

[Fillythebish]

Thanks.

I read the T-nation webpage aswell, there are too many articles for me to get a decent idea of what to lift, no idea of what is the right amount to be doing in one session.

One other question I have, is should I scrap the whole 8-12 rep sessions and just do the max weights at 1-5 reps?

I'm looking for performance in strength and power, I dont mind about how I look.

But I'm confused if max weights builds strength, wont I need the 8-12 reps to build the muscle mass which will help to increase my strength?

[Yost]

I personally would elect to do something with around 5 reps, rather than 8-12.

If you want to build muscle mass then eat more (good foods). If you want to get stronger, that is possible without building muscle mass. But you will get stronger still if you eat more. I really think you can get just as big doing sets of 5 (as opposed to sets of 8-12) if you eat for it, and the sets of 5 will definitely make you stronger than sets of 8-12 will.

[Mr Punch]

This is what I do at the moment, I only weight train once a week, rest is other stuff...
or remove other exercises in exchange for the new ones?
Remove everything, starting with your head! :D

Buy Mark Rippetoe's 'Starting Strength' or my personal favourite Lou Schuler and Alwyn Cosgrove's 'New Rules of Lifting'. Read them. Train as detailed. Come back in one year, after having observed the changes in your body, health, skills etc and having thought of some questions and ask them!

OK OK, I'm kidding! Except for the book bit.

Pull as much as you push. Ditch the isolation.

Squats, deads, bench, press, lunges, bent-over rows, pull-ups (or pull-downs) etc.

Don't even think about overloading the oly lifts: they are NOT maximal lifts. And furthermore, don't even think about doing them at all unless you've been taught (shown personally) properly.

Can I ask why this forum has an obsession with only doing the 'compound movements'?...Because they're not very good? :confused: :eek: :cool:

1) There are pretty well no movements you do that mimic isolation exercises in your every day life or any sport I can think of. Everything you do is compound: walking, drinking a cup of tea, sitting down, standing up, picking up and carrying your bags...

2) On top of that, isolation exercises work unnaturally to hold a muscle in place while you're working another muscle without its stabilisers with often too heavy a weight, putting more strain on the joints.

3) Working muscles in compound makes sure that no muscles are worked out of balance.

I would suggest that isolation exercises work for people with a lot of experience, but mainly even then just as assitance exercises: to assist the compounds, or for people interested in size over strength.

FillyTB has been lifting something for five years and is still only benching 80 and curling 24.

I don't feel overtrained or anything, and it's worked wonders for me. You obviously have a lot more experience.

JMO.