Stretching

[waya]

What different types of stretching does everyone do? This issue has alot of controversy in various schools and arts and I would like to hear more on it. Personally I use rope stretches in a kicking position standing as well as a machine and free stretching with a partner. Is it over rated to stretch to a significant degree of flexibility or really worth the time it takes?

Rob

[Chazz]

That sounds like a lot of the ones that we do. We also do basic sports stretches such as toe touches and sit down leg stretches. I dont so much agree about it being a waste of time, cause i have a student who work on her flexibility all the time and still keep her power and speed in her kicks, and cause of that pulls more tricks out of her back when sparring.

[waya]

I also feel it is worth the time. I broke my right knee a few years ago and was off it for a while. Since then I have had to do alot of stretching to regain any power and speed in kicks above the knee since even waist kicks were hard for a while. Now I spend about 2 hours a day on stretching exercises even if I am not training that day. As long as I don't overdo it, it seems to help my knee alot.

[Chazz]

I know what you mean, I have blown out my right knee twice now and its hard to get back into the swing of things. It takes a lot of time and energy to just get back to where you were before you got hurt. So more power to ya!

Take care of the Knee
Chazz

[Melanie]

Oh dear - what a bunch of cripples we are! I damaged my knee just over a year ago now - not at MA either. I had to spend 9 months out getting it fixed. I was given a very strict physio and have kept to it since - I had pulled a muscle at the side of the knee and had to work back gently due to muscle wastage. So stretching is pretty important for me at the moment.

We don't have stretching equipment per se but we do about 20 mins at the beginning and about 10 at the end. I have been to a couple of dojos and not everyone stretches at the end of the evening - do you both stretch at the end?

Melanie

[waya]

I bought a stretching machine that I keep in my home, as well as the rope system I use. We do partner stretching before and after our classes also. That generally makes my daily stretching about 2.5 hrs combined.
I'm not sure that full splits are necessary for everyone but I do think that a good amount of stretching all the leg and arm muscles is to prevent strains and tears.

Rob

[Chazz]

I agree,
In class we start the first 25 min. of it doing regular stretched. Rotating the head and neck as well as the arms, and working our way to the feet. (If interested, sometime i'll post our set that we do!) the we do still leg front kick and crescant kicks to stretch out hips out.

Oh Mel, we do not stretch after class, but i think thats a good idea. What kind do you do after class and i might start doing them in my classes?

Other stretches, i do use to rope method as well and the machine. i also like to do tention kicks. It helps stretch the muscles of the leg.

-Chazz

[Cooler]

Hey Chazz,

Why not e=mail me the stretching routine you do and I will add it to the section on stretching in our tutorials.

Just right it up and add some diagrams or photos send it to us and we will do the rest.

Cooler.

[Chazz]

Cooler,

Killer, i'll do it tonight. There are quite a few.

-Chazz

[Melanie]

Hiya

Chazz we do some long stretching like deep stances, splits, that sort of thing. There is also moves similar to how you may stretch when you wake up in the morning, except longer and stronger we do between 5-10 mins of this and I always feel the benefit of it. Newer students won't gripe about being stiff the next day if they are warmed down properly so may not find the regime as punishing had they not warmed down, and be tempted to come back for the next lesson!

Its just removing the lactic acid build up in the muscles, hence no more stiffness. ;)

Melanie

[waya]

Melanie,
Not alot of people think of the stretching afterwards to bring the muscles back down from the workout. You're lucky to be somewhere that does LOL. We do about the same where I train at and for the same reasons..... It's no fun trying to train again the next day when your legs are arguing lol.

Rob

[Chazz]

Melanie
Sounds good to me. I think i may start to do that im my classes. most of the time we spar at the end of the class, and after each person spars they walk around to get cooled off, but i might try to try that Wed. in my next class

take care ;)

[Andy Murray]

No two people will enjoy the same stretching program. If I can make one reccomendation it would be that you thouroghly research the subject before you start stretching seriously. If you are an instructor you should also research, and make sure you know what you are doing to people in group stretches. You may well have good flexibility, but if you are having joint or muscle problems, then this suggests a problem with your training program. Most people have a dominant leg, and will find a turning kick ( mawashigeri ) easier on one leg. If we keep training asymetry we may well be training bad body posture, which leads to problems in later life.

Check out the site on stretching, in the links section of this site!

Reccomend the book/video 'Stretching Scientifically' by thomas Kurz also.

P.S. Cod Liver Oil is cheap and effective, and your joints will thank you!

[Chazz]

Good point. But the streches we do are needed to help with everyday class. If a student has a problem they tell us and we move around their need. Nothing we do is too hard. you can either do them hard or take it easy and get a light stretch.
Tiger Balm also helps sore muscles

-Chazz

[Andy Murray]

A stretching program is needed not only in class, but in life. You only get at best a pair of everything, two knees, two elbows etc. One spine. Damage these and you are in trouble. If you push as hard as you can when training then you have to be careful of not going too hard. Even if your Instructor is a world champion I would still reccomend that you verify their stretching methods are safe for you. I have witnessed poor methodology, from many people, who often have adopted the stretching program of their own Instructors.

If you talk to a physio or a Chiropractor in particular, or describe your stretches to them, you may get a surprise.

Be safe!

As the Boxer said to the Kick Boxer; 'I may not be able to get my foot to your head, but I can get your head to my foot!'

[Melanie]

As you know, Shotokan is renown for the damage it can create to knees, had there been a weakness there in the first place. When the injury occured to my knee, I was told that it was very unlikely that I would ever get back to MA. (Which naturally baited me all the more and I knew I would be coming back to MA come hell or high water!). After several months of indirect treatment, I was finally put through to a reasonably physiotherapist. She was remarkable! She told me where the pain was and how it felt. Ever since meeting that woman, I felt in safe hands and she was the one that gave me the appropriate stretching techniques to enable me to come back to what I love.

When you all started in this lark known as MA, did any of you get asked of any existing conditions? My Sensei asked from day one fortunately.

Melanie

[Melanie]

Just come accross this site - thought you might find it of interest:

Stretching and Flexibility - Everything you never wanted to know

http://www.enteract.com/~bradapp/docs/rec/stretching/stretching_toc.html

Melanie

[waya]

I have been asked at every school I have been in.... Sometimes more for liability reasons but the better ones ask so they know how I need to work on things.

[Andy Murray]

Going back to Waya's original question.

I am currently getting best results from pnf stretches. I have found little value in passive/static stretches. The advantage of pnf and isometric stretches is that you have a good range of flexibility without a warmup. If you find that you need to warm up before you can kick high, then I suggest you have a problem with your stretching program. As I said before, check out the Links on this site!

[waya]

Andy I use pnf and Isometric alot also. They seem to give me the best results.
I don't have trouble with cold high kicks. I am 5'8 and can generally kick at my head height at least without stretching.

[Andy Murray]

So where did you learn these stretching methods Waya? By your own research, or from your instructor(s)?

[waya]

Mostly my own research.... I have found that most instructors don't ever know/learn the difference between types of stretching and their results. Personally I think it's a good idea for any instructor to put themselves through schooling to be a physical fitness trainer for that reason.

[Silver_no2]

I am a great believer in stretching. Having played rugby for eighteen years and squash for twelve I have seen numerous people pick up injuries that could have been easily avoided had they stretched off properly.

It also helps in terms of speed and agility. If your muscles are stiff and tight they cannot move as smoothly and quickly as when you are well stretched.

I agree that people need to have individual warm ups and stretches. Everybody is different in terms of what their bodies need (beyond sex and alcohol obviously!) and so should stretch/warm up as such.

[waya]

That's why I think being a certified fitness trainer would be usefull to a martial arts instructor. Fitness Trainers are educated on identifying personal needs and the mechanics of the individual instead of just one set way of working the body.

[hellfire]

had the pleasure of training with bill (superfoot) wallace a few years ago
and i have stuck to what i learned from him, and my god does it work

[Freeform]

What ate pnf stretches, I think I've heard the term before. Has anyone got Tom Seabornes 'Martial Arts Athlete' book, lots of good stretches in there.

Thanx

[alienladd]

Well, well, well!!!
I am TOTALLY amazed at this discussion on stretching in MA.

It reminds me of discussions about whether a newborn baby should be breast-fed and whether it is good or bad for it. :-)

Just as I cannot imagine a baby not being breast-fed by it's mother (except for reasons of health complications) so I cannot imagine any MA discipline without it's stretching routines.

No matter what techniques you learn in theory, without a supple body you will have no chance of applying them effectively.
And stretching makes your body supple.

But the secret of stretching is in doing it gently over a period of time. If you try to 'force' the stretch you will most probably do more harm than good.

My own experience tells me that Yoga exercises are probably the best. Yoga concentrates mainly on stretching and the techniques have been known for thousands of years.

When I practiced Kung Fu two years ago stretching formed a large part of our exercising.
And now I practice Tai Chi again stretching plays a major role although the exercises are a little more intense than in Yoga.

No machinery or gym equipment is employed in any of our stretching exercises.

Now to my own observations on stretching -

The CAT !!!

Watch the cat carefully when it get's up from a sleep.
Stretching each individual leg, arching and curving the back, rolling and twisting the spine when playing and lying on it's back.
It's a most incredible and enlightning observation to make.
___________________________________________
{A note of caution here:- Keep your cat away from Andrew Green - he likes to put them in microwaves :D} :D :D :D
___________________________________________

My first movements in the morning are stretching excercises for probably some half-hour, often more.
Not only does it loosen up the body but also increases your blood flow and gets the CHI going.

Well that's my 'Tuppence' worth! :-)

[Freeform]

It ok, I found what pnf are in that Tom Seaborne book I was talking about. I normally like to start off with some press-ups, sit-ups before I strech in the morning, for some reason it just feels better, maybe gets the blood flowing or something?

Thanx

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Starting off with gentle anaerobic exercise does actually make stretching easier, but if you do a full work out and then stretch all you'll do is damage yourself in the work out, and the stretch'll do you no good whatsoever. To be honest one of the best warmups you'll find is yoga.

[Andy Murray]

The Thomas Kurz method had a couple of interesting points mentioned in the book!

He suggested that; When you sleep, all your muscles relax. Most people get out of bed and walk about, then walk to work, drive, or cycle etc. He suggests that this actually sets a limited range of motion for the body. If, when you get up, you do a light warm up. then some careful ballistic stretches, you set your self a higher plateau to start your stretching program from later in the day.

As Alienladd said, the cat wakes up and stretches automatically. Never seen my cat do pushups, but then she doesn't brush her teeth in the morning either.

Often neglected point is to stretch all muscle groups, not just legs!

Andy

[ladyhawk]

I severely tore my hamstring 2 years ago while training and still suffer from muscle spasms. In my quest for alternative methods of relief other the muscle relaxers I stumbled upon a website on Kinesiology and Biomechanics. The following is the section on Stretching and Flexibility. It has alot of good information.
http://www.bl.physik.tu-muenchen.de/~k2/budo/sfaq/stretching_1.html

[ladyhawk]

Hey Melanie,
We found the exact same info. about stretching on different websites. It was rather informative.