Another "why?"!

[snailfist]

Why is it that humanity, throughout its history, has always been prone to introspection?

:D :rolleyes:

All thoughts encouraged!

[shunyadragon]

In science, introspection, is a product of the development of the human brain.

[nzric]

1. Humans are a social animal.
2. Social animals that follow the rules of the group are naturally more successful.
3. Our brains have evolved to seek gratification by following the norms of the group.
4. Once children learn language, the first thing they do is question their elders to establish the norms, beliefs and rules of the group (the "but why" stage).
5. This stage naturally ends with the questioning of the elders' authority to answer, especially in the major western cultures where individual knowledge is seen as more important than knowledge passed on by elders.
6. As the individual resolves a place in society, he/she will continually self-reference to ensure conformity with the group norms/values

Next question :)

[CKava]

"Our brains have evolved to seek gratification by following the norms of a group" Where did you dig that up from? I might be willing to accept our society has evolved to create such a situation but not our brains. Our brains respond with the appropriate hormones when the proper stimulus is received and in the non-physical cases it is our pyschological makeup which decides what is pleasurable. Our pyschological makeup heavily influenced (if not totally conditioned) by our society, however, is not the same as our biological brain...

Also in relation to the thread, introspection does not always mean self referencing knowledge: it can also mean examining oneself by oneself. Note examining oneself- not examing what one was taught. The reason I think this happens is basically due to the rather unsatisfactory nature of life, people tend to think is this all there is?!? And if you wanted to find out what there is without relying on what someone else has told you, introspection would seem the way to go!

[nzric]

It's obvious there is something hardwired into our brains that makes us seek social contact. Birds imprint onto a parent, other mammals naturally follow a pack structure from birth, so why not humans? Also, all cultures, as diverse as they are in the world, tend to follow a social structure with a more-or-less formal hierarchy usually based around the family group (just look at the Kennedy's and the Bush family :))

"Examining oneself" is right, but how else can you examine oneself other than with the tools you have from the cultural norms you are familiar with? All cultures are "insane" if viewed in relation to other successful cultures - it is natural to define your own success/happiness/sanity from the point of view of the culture you are in.

It's interesting to note that the countries with the highest youth suicide rates in the world are Sweden and New Zealand. These are relatively wealthy Western First World countries, yet suicide (which as an individual act is clearly the result of failed but intensive introspection) is so high. A link with the failure of the extended family group in the west ?? I don't know the suicide rates for places like Italy or Greece but it would be interesting to compare - I may be completely wrong.

[CKava]

Originally posted by nzric
"Examining oneself" is right, but how else can you examine oneself other than with the tools you have from the cultural norms you are familiar with?Thats a pretty good question nzric personally I think thats what introspection is because its not a method you can be taught. I agree that our society is responsible for conditioning us to be able to function in society (language and so on) but I think introspection is something beyond conditioning because its learning from yourself rather than any outside source (Its basically the only original thing you can ever learn!). Oh and on a sidenote Id add that it also usually helps you recognise the rather unhealthy job that society did to you mentally by conditioning you :)
Originally posted by nzric
...yet suicide (which as an individual act is clearly the result of failed but intensive introspection)I dunno about this Id say suicide is more an act which is clearly a result of a lack of introspection. Someone gets caught up in how terrible things are and identify with their suffering so much that they kill themselves to escape it. Thats more avoidance than attempting to understand... (No offence intended to anyone just my opinion!)

[nzric]

Personally, I think suicide is a result of too much introspection. If you judge yourself and analyse yourself too much you're obviously going to identify flaws in your character, but in the case of suicide, people make these flaws larger and larger by continuing to dwell on their personality defects. It's rare that someone will suicide for something/someone else, rather than for themselves.

I know where you're coming from on the introspection pov, but the average person on the street doesn't have the tools (or, usually, the desire) for "advanced introspection". People like Da Vinci, Picasso, full-time poets and philosophers are able to construct highly personal conditioning and value systems by which they analyse themselves, but I don't feel the average person does that. They don't have the time, they don't see the need and they haven't been taught the skills - it's only when it's too late that they realise the value of proper self knowledge.

Introspection is seen as an unnecessary diversion, especially in western culture. Even diary writing, the most personal thing someone will probably ever do, is being turned into some PR tool for publicity hungry writers and 'street savvy' youngsters, with the blog culture. At school, you are taught how to behave in a social group, and what is important to learn, but you are seldom taught how to deal with your own personal growth (apart from in the 'drop out' classes).

Introspection isn't valued at all because there is no commercial gain from self-analysis. As long as you put on a confident, assertive face to the world you're seen as a productive Western citizen. That is the reason why there is so much suicide, pharmaceutical drug addiction and obesity in Western cultures, because (apart from overpriced seminars run by salesmen) there is little focus on the tools of productive introspection.

[bcullen]

Introspection isn't valued at all because there is no commercial gain from self-analysis. As long as you put on a confident, assertive face to the world you're seen as a productive Western citizen. That is the reason why there is so much suicide, pharmaceutical drug addiction and obesity in Western cultures, because (apart from overpriced seminars run by salesmen) there is little focus on the tools of productive introspection.

Well of course there's no commercial gain! If people actually stop and look at what they're doing they might think twice about their path. Heaven forbid that they should become truly introspective--Why, that could lead to self-actualization and all sorts of other nonsense. How would we sell our national mint limited issue coins and velvet Elvis paintings and... :D

Being introspective almost seems to be humanities reason for being. It's both a great gift and a great burden. The ability to objectively analyze our own actions and place in the world allows us to re-define our position in our environment. Yet the same quest for purpose it inspires becomes our downfall if our view of the world is too myopic.

For example: If you gauge your life only by the amount of money you make, you have two possible outcomes:
1) You don't make enough and view yourself as a failure, regardless of all the other things you have done.
2) You make tons of money but have no true friends just hangers-on and yes-men. A hollow victory.

In either case the narrow focus and lack of balance produces misery.

[snailfist]

Sadly, that's too true and too frequent.

[Kwajman]

Introspection is usually a form of trying to relieve self doubt about oneself...

[CKava]

Originally posted by nzric
Personally, I think suicide is a result of too much introspection. If you judge yourself and analyse yourself too much you're obviously going to identify flaws in your character, but in the case of suicide, people make these flaws larger and larger by continuing to dwell on their personality defects. It's rare that someone will suicide for something/someone else, rather than for themselves.I dont see what introspection has to do with judging yourself, the way I see it is that it actually short circuits the whole judgement thing. If you just trying to become more aware of yourself what flaws could you find- there is no ideal? There is just what you are, comparing yourself to societies ideals or other 'good people' is nothing at all to do with introspection, its to do with conditoning (which as Ive suggested earlier is definitely not introspection).

I know where you're coming from on the introspection pov, but the average person on the street doesn't have the tools (or, usually, the desire) for "advanced introspection".Anyone on the street is capable of introspection because absolutely everyone is capable of watching themselves. Anyone who has answered the question how are you feeling does it, they 'look' at how they feel then report it. If your capable of saying I was in a bad mood, Im now in a good mood you are capable of introspection. I agree that most people dont choose to do this but thats because as you later point out society tends to place no value on it. Our culture doesnt want nor attempt to produce independant people free from insecurities and perfectly content as they are, its more profitable (and more socially acceptable) for people to be concerned with how others think of them, to want to be succesful, to think they need this and that to be happy.. and so on.

Introspection isn't valued at all because there is no commercial gain from self-analysis. As long as you put on a confident, assertive face to the world you're seen as a productive Western citizen. That is the reason why there is so much suicide, pharmaceutical drug addiction and obesity in Western cultures, because (apart from overpriced seminars run by salesmen) there is little focus on the tools of productive introspection. Well said!

[nzric]

CKava - Introspection is self-judgement, but what I'm saying is that in a Western society, where the whole life of an individual is measured on a strict criteria of "success", the 'average joe' has not learned any method of introspection that doesn't include self-judgement.

[Yama Tombo]

In my experience for a person to commit suicide usually affected by their(beliefs,or customs,or experiences) introspective compares themself to society or social groups or other individuals. This has a big deal on why the person is going to commit suicide.

[nzric]

In the west, suicide is a personal thing, usually from a sense of social/family failure.

In the past, suicide could also be a tool. Look at the Samurai or Indian (widow) tradition of suicide in order to keep honour, or as a political statement, like religious self-sacrifice (monks burning themselves to protest Vietnam...).

But in the west, suicide is most common in young males and also middle-aged men. It is usually either an inability to cope with, or a perceived failure of meeting social expectations.

[Yama Tombo]

In western society the young males have unspoken expectations by society and/or family to be 'naturally' successful in business unlike the females of that society. So, in turn, this is believed to the cause for the dilemma in western young males' recently poor educational preformance in schools. They believe that the boys in school don't received as much attention as the girls, since western companies are dominated by 95.5% males.

And the Father figure in families seem to be evern absence in much family involvement. So that is not much help to the boys of families who opt to seek approval on stuff. So I do see what you mean. Though, I don't think it is much of a personal thing anymore.

[CKava]

Emmm... Im a bit lost. Yama why if there are "unspoken expectations" for males to be succesful in business would they receive less attention in schools? And why if they dont perform well because of these "unspoken expectations" would they comprise 95.5% of the dominant figures in "western companies"? Do you not think 95.5% might be a bit of an exaggeration anyway?

And I apologise but I also dont quite understand the 2nd paragraph. Why would the male father figure being absent lead to the boys being incapable of receiving approval? Is the father the only person capable of giving approval? And what makes you say that the father figure's in family are absent? (Supposedly theres less emphasise these days on prescribed gender roles- i.e. the male bread winner)

And nzric I take your point that people dont usually go in for not judging themselves, but I think any method that includes conditioned concepts isnt really introspection. Its more pyscho-analysis or something similar- trying to find out more things than understand whats already there...

[Yama Tombo]

Originally posted by CKava
Emmm... Im a bit lost. Yama why if there are "unspoken expectations" for males to be succesful in business would they receive less attention in schools? And why if they dont perform well because of these "unspoken expectations" would they comprise 95.5% of the dominant figures in "western companies"? Do you not think 95.5% might be a bit of an exaggeration anyway?

And I apologise but I also dont quite understand the 2nd paragraph. Why would the male father figure being absent lead to the boys being incapable of receiving approval? Is the father the only person capable of giving approval? And what makes you say that the father figure's in family are absent? (Supposedly theres less emphasise these days on prescribed gender roles- i.e. the male bread winner)

And nzric I take your point that people dont usually go in for not judging themselves, but I think any method that includes conditioned concepts isnt really introspection. Its more pyscho-analysis or something similar- trying to find out more things than understand whats already there...


I'll try to make this short as a I can:
First, where I got this from was the educational comparison of boys verses girls in schools across American (I was mainly focusing on America for example, I should have clarified that) In America males seem to do better than girls in education, through most, or half of the 20th century.

The sex roles come into play that girls never seem to receive much educational attention. The belief that subconsciously or consciously girls are viewed to stay home and help around the house. And the "unspoken expectations" that girls would end up as secretaries or homemakers. Which a good number of women were through much of America's history.

Since most of the major impact of the womens' movement in America happened during late 60s and on. Much of the movement affected the educational scene for girls. Which one may say is the same motivation that pushes girls on today to excel in the education field.

Now, the role for males is different since men are seen as the providers for the house; workers; and for sometime only men went to college. I might concede that the womens' movement had anything to do future education process for American boys. Some people say that the dominate role of females teachers might be a bit sexists towards males. That might be true for a small fraction, though I believe the reason for the decline in education for boy. Might be that female teachers maybe apt, or intuned to help girls out more; being the same sex and may not be able to pass off the same educational message to boys as which girls might grasp. Which women are more verbosely, anyway. Also, teachers may subconsciously, put boys in a role of naturally being successful on their own, or of that nature. A majority of men have had large, successful businesses, where most women have had small, successful businesses. Most of the early business men had dropped out of highschool or had no college education.

Thus the 95.5% maybe a bit exaggeration, but the last percentage showed 86 - 89 in American businesses. Men have dominated as being the sex with multimillion dollar companies.

And recent studies show an great increase of divorce among families world-wide. [I'm still a bit focusing on America here] And an increase of people living single life styles throughout much of the world. The lack of a father figure in families have shown that child may grow up to take more risks, than a child in a family with an active father. Now, this is not to say that a child with an active father won't act the same as family without. They may not take greater risks than the child who has no father, or a father that does not show any interest in the his child's life. For a boy to find approval from his father would be greater, than finding approval from say his mother, friend, teacher, or etc.

So, I hope you understand what I said.

[nzric]

CKava - just curious, what's your definition of 'introspection'?

[CKava]

From my previous posts I found a few things that seem to suggest what I think introspection is...

"examining oneself- not examing what one was taught."
"introspection is something beyond conditioning because its learning from yourself rather than any outside source."
"just trying to become more aware"

But to clarify a little I think it is when we examine ourselves without judgement, when we just try and become more aware of what exactly is going on. I think for example that its possible while being depressed to recognise that we are feeling depressed and examine ourselves; see the mood we are in, see the way we are behaving, see what we are reacting to that 'made' us depressed and so on... Now I dont think for one minute that doing any of that will necessarily stop the depression from occuring neither do we have to sit still on a cushion while we become more aware of any of the stuff I mentioned, we can be walking around moping away and just try and be aware of what we are doing (and to a little extent why we are doing it). To me the immediate benefit of behaving in such a way is that I am actually a little bit aware of whats going on in my life, Im not bouncing around like a helpless puppet so much (well actually I am but Im beginning to notice it a bit more). And theres many other benefits but I'll not start rambling on now...

So thats what I think introspection is simply just being more aware of whats going on.

[CKava]

Oh and thanks very much for explaining Yama, much appreciated :D

[Seito]

Ive been told introspection is the the act of looking within ourselves in order to understand everything around us...

[nzric]

Have you guys heard of NLP? I'm really getting into it. It stands for Neuro Linguistic Programming and it's advanced methods of finding and breaking out of your common thought patterns to become more aware/creative. Check it out.

I sometimes find, especially when I'm meditating, that I seem to have at least four different thought patterns - each at different speeds and 'language'. Think about how you can have a tune stuck in your head (language based - realtime), but at the same time you are thinking about what you will do tonight (in symbolic language - visualising places in your head) and someone calls your name from the other side of the room (you're aware of the person calling even though you don't have to put it into language).

It's interesting to do. Think of anything, like a new problem or an idea. Try to speak aloud about your idea. You'll come to sense different levels in your mind - first you're dealing with symbols and making connections, then you'll have a level that is translating that into an idea, then you translate that into language. Try to separate the levels and look at them individually - you'll find that if you concentrate you can process information much faster by focusing/meditating at the symbolic level. You don't even need to put it into language.

I've written down the levels as I understand them - it's around somewhere - let me know if it's something that interests you.

[bcullen]

Originally posted by nzric
I've written down the levels as I understand them - it's around somewhere - let me know if it's something that interests you. [/B]

That does sound interesting. I've heard a little about NLP. Never got really into it.

[snailfist]

Yeah that does sound interesting; has Derren Brown's TV show from the British Channel Four reached Australia/ the States yet?

[bcullen]

Not that I'm aware...It may be showing on BBC America here. I'll have to run a search for it.

[Tireces]

Intro-wha? Bah, forget this, I'm going to go blank out my mind and watch TV.

[snailfist]

Well it's a show in which he uses psychology (and a few magic tricks) to manipulate people.

For example, he took over the PA in a shopping centre and subliminally conditioned everyone to raise their right hand in the air at once :D

I was just reminded of it by the NLP talk. A lot of the effects he creates employ the recognition of signals we aren't aware of.

[Kosh]

Originally posted by snailfist
Why is it that humanity, throughout its history, has always been prone to introspection?

:D :rolleyes:

All thoughts encouraged!

Compared to what? Dogs, sheep...dolphins.

How do you know that sheep dont think about themselve more than we do?

If we are more prone to introspection... i think it is simply because we can.

[snailfist]

I see no comparison to any other organism in my original post. :rolleyes:

An intersting idea though- what is the consciousness of a sheep?

[Kosh]

What is the consciousness of a human?

You said why are humans SO predisposed do introspection (or something along those lines)...whats you frame of reference?

[Shade]

The mere fact that he asked the question is a sign of human introspection.

Introspection means, amongst other things, examination of one's own thoughts and feelings.

One only has to look at the sheer volume of programs such as Oprah, Sally, Ricki Lake etc to concur that mankind is very introspective.

[nzric]

Yeah, but then you have to look at the sheer volume of Pop Idol, The Bachelor and Friends episodes to concur that introspection was never humans' strong point. What do we define as a 'rich' person, especially in our culture? it's not someone with great powers of self-awareness, it's someone with a lot of glittering, pretty things.

[Shade]

Your probably right nzric, although the programs you mention are scripted (with the exception of Pop Idol which folows a script of sorts and has nothing of any real value anyway).

Mind you, anyone unfortunate enough to watch something of the ilk of Sally, Ricki etc is in for a slick edited show to make the host look intelligent and observant beyond their wildest dreams. (Which makes me think where on earth do these shows get all these dumb ass people that go on them and discuss their problems in front of x million people? FFS if someone invited me on to one of these shows I would tell them to f off as they obviously have to tell me they are a gender bender/unfaithful/disease ridden/carrying someone elses child/a christian etc).

You are spot on about the 'richness' thing. And frankly it is nothing other than sad.

[snailfist]

No i didn't kosh. Read it again.

And shade, that was the point! Note the :D.

"Why am i watching this drivel?"is a question more people should ask more often. Then we might get some decent telly programmes!

[Shade]

And shade, that was the point! Note the .

Errr....yes i know that. That's why i was posting in your defence!!

[snailfist]

In my defense?
Sorry.
Too many people seemed not to get the point.

[CKava]

Originally posted by Kosh
What is the consciousness of a human?

You said why are humans SO predisposed do introspection (or something along those lines)...whats you frame of reference? There are only something like 3 or 4 species of animal that have produced results when tested that show they are even capable of recognising themselves, theres a parrot, some type of squid and something else I cant remember. If an animal is not even capable of recognising itself in a physical sense what reason do we have to believe they are capable of examining their 'self'? They dont even seem to recognise they have a self... So I think its quite reasonable to say that humans in comparison to every other animal on the planet are the MOST predisposed not to mention the only animal capable of self-consciousness/self-awareness. Introspection requires the ability to look at yourself and your behaviour- I am watching myself being angry, do you seriously think animals do that or do they just busy themselves with mating, eating and avoiding dieing (oh and in the case of dolphins and the like frolicking)? Now dont get me wrong I dont think we should all pat ourselves on the back for being animals capable of such self consciousness especially as we seem to spend most of our time being as unaware as possible, but I just dont see any weight to the argument that other animals have the same capabilities as us, its just not true...

[snailfist]

Seems sound to me.