Forms

[mountainsage]

I had the most interesting conversation with my instructor today and wanted to get some opinions. I was practicing my WTF forms in an open class and my instructor stopped me and stated that my simulating grabbing an arm prior to punching was wrong ( I hope folks understand what I mean). His exact statement was " It's o.k. to do that in training, but don't do that when doing forms." Aren't forms supposed to be training? Shouldn't a person train like they fight? What in the hell is going on with Taekwondo? I just nodded like a good student, yet the situation is not setting well with me. I am a red belt and I am uncomfortable with strongly disagreeing with my instructor, yet I need to draw the line between art and sport for me. I know that sounds arrogant, but I have to look at myself in the mirror everyday.

Mountainsage

[Chazz]

WTF TKD is more sport. Their sparring and forms are done more to tournament aspects. On your forms he is saying that in class that is good when you go to a tourney or in front of others you should do it to where it LOOKS better. As long as you stay with a org/style/school or whatever that is more sport minded then you will get what is better for the sport. If you go to a more traditional school they will work on your technique and more mental ideas of the art.

At least this is what i have seen and taken in!

[Tosh]

I agree with Chazz on this one.

The whole danger of doing technique in forms is that you have far too much licence to do things that just wouldn't work if there was an opponent thier.

Your instructor is probably concentrating on ensuring you are utilising the correct technique rather than a full speed release.

However, and this sort of thing really gets to me, why did you just sit and nod??? It sounds like you don't understand why he was asking you to do it this way. If not and he explained it well enough then you wouldn't need to ask the question here.

I have an open policy in my class, where if anyone has any question about the technique or about why I am asking them to do it a specific way, I am brutaly frank. even when that answer involves the responses;

"because it is for one very specific situation in this pattern, which you would probably only use in this situation"

or

"I don't know, but I'll find out for you"

at the end of the day your instructor is there to answer any questions you have.

[Chazz]

I agree on that. Anytime that you have a question you should always ask it. If you dont you may never get the answers that you need to become better at what you are doin. Even if he didnt give you the answer that you wanted, at least you have one.

[mountainsage]

Yes Tosh, I did understand what and why he was saying. The problem is that I am an opinionated, middle-aged redneck farmer with zero tact, so silence is sometimes the best option. I have no desire to compete in martial sport, even though I am in WTF. My master requires two tourney for BB and I have explained that I am willing to remain a 1st gup til death rather than go to tourney. For reference, out closest tourney is 6 hours from our town, one way. I don't have the time to travel 6 hoours to compete for 3 minutes total in a situation were the winner has been decided ahead of time. Welcome to martial sport.

Mountainsage

[Artikon]

I think the simulation of grabbing when doing forms is okay to do in some specific areas . . . just not all the time. I see alot of people clench and unclench their fists before each punch in a grabbing motion prior to every punch. I see this as a dangerous practice as you fight the way you train for sure, and if you get in the habit of committing one hand to a grabbing motion everytime, the one time someone's arm isn't there means you're in for a world of hurt.

I believe Tosh is also right that to actually practice a grab you should have a live partner to work with so you can also get the feel of muscle and resistance under your hand.

As for the two tourney's before blackbelt. If your instructor is set on that . . . which I do agree with since I do believe sport is part of the art and everyone should experience a tournment . . . . see if you can come to a compromise. Do a research paper on TKD sport, or say you'll become an official. Officials get alot more fights than the actual competitors do, and sometimes . . . just sometimes you'll get fed for your efforts :D

I'm sure there is something that interests you about TKD that you could come to a compromise with your instructor . . . just be sure to keep an open mind and not to compromise yourself in the process.

Oh btw . . . I'm assuming you are doing the Taegeuk patterns . . . or do your practice the palgwae, or both.

One last thing I promise, as for the winner of a match being determined ahead of time . . . knock the other person out so there can be no doubt who the winner is :D

[mountainsage]

We will have to agree to disagree on the grabbing the arm issue. My parting shot is the if I grap your arm and manipulate your wrist there will only be one person in a world of hurt and it won't be me. One of the advantages of being big and strong. Artikon, you missing my point, I have no desire to have ANY contact with sport sparring. If sport sparring ended tomorrow, I would be dancing in the streets and throwing parties. A research paper is not a bad idea, but not anything about sport sparring; I'll run it past my instructor. There are many things about the art of TKD that interest me except the sporting aspect. As far as, the experiance of tourneys, I believe that my experiance as a high school wrestler on the state/regional level and running for political office on the local, county, state, and federal level gives me the functioning under pressure experiance tourney pretent to give. Yes, I am doing Taeguek forms and will add the palgwe forms (my choice) and pre-determined winner's was referring to forms competition.
I'd like to put another question on the table. What is the difference between doing a form at a competition verse doing the same form in your home? My answer is simple, EGO.

Mountainsage

[Tosh]

Originally posted by mountainsage
Yes Tosh, I did understand what and why he was saying.

I'm not being picky but you do not relay that to well in the post. It reads like your instructor was just telling you do to it just for the sake of the pattern "looking" good.

If this was the only explanation you were afforded then IMO your instructor needs a refresher course on the why's and how's of instruction as it's not a very satisfactory answer for a beginner, let alone a 1st kup :(

Concerning WTF 2 tourney thing.... bummer. Ever thought of defecting to the ITF? Sure you have to spar to grade but you can certainly officiate at a comp in order to grade to BB!! ;)

[Thomas]

At our school, the master recommends that every student competet in at least one tournament before blackbelt... and ideally would like to see all students compete once per belt level, whether it is inter-school, local, state or national. Even though we teach WTF style Taekwondo and do train for tournaments, our main focus is on a well rounded system. Here is why we favor that students compete before black belt at least once:

(1) We want to see how a student handles getting hit by someone they don't know, someone who wants to knock them out.

(2) We want to see if they are gracious in defeat or victory. How do they portray themselves (and the school) in public?

(3) How do they compete? Are they calm and cool? Do they have good control? Do they try their best and keep their temper even when outclassed?

(4) As a black belt, we will begin grooming them as an instructor. If an instructor has never fought in a tournament, how can they teach how to do it?

(5) We want to see what they learn away from the school... using their style in competition aganist someone of similar abilities. What they learned is more important than if they won.

To answer your question about the difference between competing away and doing it in your own school is seeing how much a student can "turn it up" in a new place. Can they handle the stress or will they fall apart? The environment of being in a new place with different people, all motivated to win, adds a new element to your practice.

On a personal note, I am not a big fan of sport sparring. I did compete because my master required it and through the stress, uneasiness, pain, disappointment, and such were a lot of lessons that I carry with me into the classroom and own life to this day. I also have done lots of stuff, ranging from being a parachutist-qualified interrogator for the US Army and trips to tough parts of the world... fighting in those tournaments (including a placing in New York State championships to earn a berth in nationals) were a different kind of stress and a very imporatnt part in my development as a TAEKWONDO artist. Just some things to think about...


(P.S. to Tosh's suggestion of officiating... I would respectfully submit that NOONE should be alllowed to officiate a TKD match unless they've competed... and this is another reason to require a tournemnt for all black belts... because somewhere down the road, they probably will have to ref a match!)

[mountainsage]

Well presented ideas, Thomas. The thing that jump out at me from your post is how do you compare jumping from airplanes to TKD. I could always chose to tournament spar, but try and throw me out of an air and the fight is on. Try to get me in an airplane and the fight in on:D. Those items you mention are on a much higher level than sport sparring could ever hope to attain. I should clarify that I do spar with my classmates on a regular basis and have since whitebelt. At that time, 3years ago, I regularly sparred with red and black belts(size and strength thing again). Adressing your point, if these trait aren't shown in class what makes a person think in a public situation that will change. I also found the inference of a win-lose very interesting, I might be mistaken, but aren't the martial arts about personal growth not win-lose records. If W/L is that important may I suggest to those individuals that kickboxing is a better option. As to my forms question, if a person needs to "Turn it up" for tournies then the problem is training before the tourney. You perform like you practice, there should be no need to turn it up, the volume should be at max already. " Train like it's your last day."

Mountainsage

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Thomas


P.S. to Tosh's suggestion of officiating... I would respectfully submit that NOONE should be alllowed to officiate a TKD match unless they've competed...

Thomas, our definitions of "officiate" seem to differ. :)

There are many roles at a competition that do not require ring experience. Scoreboard official, timekeeper, breaking offical.... the list is endless.

I completely agree that no one should "centre referee" if they have never competed and even corner judge I would limit them to a large extent (depending on the nature of the match).

However, for those that do not compete it's a chance for them to give something back to the TKD community whic HAS to be a good thing. IN our association (UKTA) we have different levels of umpire 'class', C to A then International, which dictates the limits of your officiating capacity. There are examination one has to pass in order to be given recognition by the Chief Umpire and while I agree it would be VERY difficult to achieve a high grade without competition experience I think that it is not absolutely neccessary.

but enough of this dragging the thread kicking and screaming off topic! ;)

[mountainsage]

My brain missed your second post. I have considered ITF many times. It seem to be gear more toward my mentality, yet there isn't a school or instructor within acceptable distance. The next closest TKD school is about 90 miles away and it is ITF, but the instuctor, a 2nd Dan, was a baby black belt that never got the art part of TKD. I understand from a classmate that goes to college in the same town that he's a great point sparrer, poor quality teacher. Honestly, you are correct about my instructor. I do hear, "Do it this way because" a) the master wants it that way or b) that how it is done for competition. Both answer I find unacceptable.

Mountainsage

[Edward Hsu]

I just have one comment about how everyone 'should' compete in a competition....as a 'competitive school...I host 2 tourneys a year,participate in Little League Taekwondo,have produced over 100 state and 15 National Champions and have students who compete internationally....I don't agree with the statement that 'everyone should 'compete in tourney....it can actually work against the Instructor,Student,Parent ....

There are a lot of positives and negatives to competition...however in my experience it is best to have a separate program for a competition team.Not everyone is made for MA competition ,especially with the fact that most competitions are run very poorly..bad refs,no mats ,no electronic scoring,bad administration...Master's who do not prepare their students properly for competition...it could be a letdown for everyone.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by mountainsage
I do hear, "Do it this way because" a) the master wants it that way or.

Hands held up, that was my phrase to students when I was a Student, reasons behind it were I didn't want to seem ignorant in front of lower grades.

The correct phrase should be,

"Do it this way because the master wants it that way...... there must be a very good reason for it and I'll be sure to find the reason out because I'm not entirely sure myself. In the meantime lets drill this technique a number of different ways and see what benefit this way has over others"

:D

Whaddya think?

[mountainsage]

I know the answer to that question, Tosh. My master would says because that is the way tourney people want it done and it doesn't matter if it is practical or not. That win/lose mentality again.

Mountainsage

[Poop-Loops]

Master? Does he own you or something?

PL

[mountainsage]

Master refers to a person that has earned the rank of 5th degree BB in TKD. I am not familiar with other art ranking systems, yet I believe that most Korean arts are about the same when dealing with rank. I use the term out of respect for my teachers teacher. The term Kwan Bum Nim is sometime used in place of Master. No, he doesn't own me, but he does make the final decision on my promotions, so in a way the master and teacher do control my future in TKD to a certain point if I want to gain rank.

Mountainsage

[Poop-Loops]

You said "my master", meaning that he owns you. I know what you were trying to do, but calling someone or yourself a master based on what belt you or they have is absurd.

PL

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Poop-Loops
You said "my master", meaning that he owns you. I know what you were trying to do, but calling someone or yourself a master based on what belt you or they have is absurd.

PL

Poops, I think you take this phrase far too literally. I see Instructor, Master, Grandmaster in the same lines of Mr, Dr and Professor when dealing with teachers.

If you have an issue about the title Master then there are many more thread that have discussed this, don't bring the argument here.

Thank you please ;)

[Yang, Dae-han]

Originally posted by mountainsage I'd like to put another question on the table. What is the difference between doing a form at a competition verse doing the same form in your home? My answer is simple, EGO.

Mountainsage [/B]

Sage,

I am WTF (KTF) player/master and I just don't comprehend <ok, I do, but find it absurd> the idea of having two differing demonstrations of the same form. Yes, we (my students and I) do forms no different in the tourney setting (and forms such as Taegeuk 7 and Taebaek are prime examples of needing to overtly show grabs), so I find it silly to alter any form for the purpose of making them "look better."

Oh, and I've seen my fair share of ITF schools alter forms for competition, so the WTF does not have a monopoly on said kniggitty.

Purpose for change is ego? Hmmm, I suppose, or reassurrance in their worth as a practitioner/player (through winning). I'd rather win by what I do/believe in, not what others' care for.... and as a judge, that can easily be seen.

As for your belief in tourneys being fixed...well, I've little knowledge on how things work in the US now, but I can't believe it's all that different. Sure, some of the bigger schools may have an edge, but a truly better artist will win...just perform in such a way that your winnings can't be denied. I remember when I went to a tourney in the US, my division (everyone) performed Koryo, whereas I did Choongmoo. Others were asked to re-perform (as they were in ties), and I assumed I didn't place. Sure enough, I came in first....and with an ITF form that most, if not all, WTF judges didn't even know.

Tourney, well mate, just go. Yes, it'll be far. Yes, it may be fixed. Yes, yes yes yes....but, it'll be worth it in the long-run...especially if you place while doing your preferred form YOUR way. Do it a second time, as the first will be a learning event, and then you may test for your dan. Then you get to say, "nah nanny boo boo."

Cheers,

DH

[Thomas]

Sorry not to have followed up sooner...

Tosh: about the definition of öfficiating", you assume correctly... we had different ideas. I agree completely with your follow up post on timekeepers, etc. (nice post by the way)

Mountain Sage: A couple of things:
(1) About the win-lose mentality... as instructors I feel that we learn more about our students when they lose. It's a very sobering issue and usually gears them up to genuinely take nore of what they need to work on. Also, we get to see if they will quit after a loss, or work harder. A win lets us see how gracious they are in victory and see if they realize that they also must learn from the little mistakes they made, as well as those made by the opponents.

(2) About requiring competition: we strongly recommend it. If a person really did not want to compete, we would try to find some way that would give that person a similar perspective or experience. We do not make it mandatory, but we do feel it is something that every TKD artist should experience. Could there be an alternative assessment... yes, and I would work it out individually with the student.

(3) Intensity level in the dojang and at a competition... I would love to say they should be the same. I try to do the same whetehr it is for class, test or competition. The biggest difference at a tournament is the unfamiliar faces, judges, guests, and instructors. Also many people are competing for a win and a person may feel a bit of pressure to look good for themself or for their school. To me, this is why a competition is a good experience. My first competition was as a yellow belt at the New York State senior championships. I was sent alone, without coach or instructor. I fought hard and lost in the sparring but placed 3rd in forms. The intensity level was amazing and the experience immense. The master was testing to see how I would handle it... from the distance to the compeition to the unfamiliarity to the potential loss. I came back stronger and surer of myself. One full day of competition taught me (and provided assessment fuel for my master) more than several days in the dojang. But, this is my own personal experience.


Good training

Pooploops: About 'master'... I use the term master even though it's not required. He does not own me but he does provide guidance, friendship, support and etc. He also exemplifies the essence of a martial artist (in my opinion) and his dedication to the martial arts ethics and high level of personal skill and instructor ability do merit the title "master"in my opinion... and it is not a term I use 'lightly'. If you have never trained with someone worthy of loyalty and devotion (and the affectionate title 'master'), I feel sorry for you and hope that you will encounter a person like this in your MA career

[mountainsage]

I'll make my comments to everyone because it seems we are all generally in agreement, our differences seem to be in intensity of similar issues. I never believed that WTF had a corner on forms altering for competition. It's competiton that changes the forms. As I read the responese, one though eat at me, are we talking about a teenager or an adult when discussing the details of the importance of competition. It appears to me that your responses are of a general nature, where as, my comment are more specific to an adults. All have made some very good comments and I'm still working on getting my brain around some of the thoughts. Losing is a sobering issue only to those who believe that losing is not an option. Again, any positive or negative trait that are shown in competition are shown many time prior in the dojang, a competition isn't necessary to demonstrate positive reaction to negative situations. As far as the being in a different place with different people thing, I can only speak for myself in that my past experiance as an athlete and politican has trained the ability to ignore distractions and situations. What usually gets me is self doubt of my ability, a me vs. myself situation or a sudden burst of ego gets in the way.

Mountainsage

[Edward Hsu]

In response to the question of altering forms for competition...yes it is done all the time.

Having gone to the U.S. Open, Adult Nationals and Junior Olympics for quite some time as well as a coach and certified USTU Referee(class B) altering forms is done all the time..referees are taught to look for certain techniques during the Referee seminars and any diviation of the form will result in deduction of points (though it's all subjective anyway) an example....Koryo, the judges are taught that the initial double side kick move ...they are told to look for a quick first snap then a quick side kick to the midsection..now, I have had many discussions about this issue,including with a senior Master under Y.H. Park(former USTU V.Pres.,former Olympic coach, authored book on TKD)who was so adament about this issue and refused to 'change' the form for competition...his students were all penalized ...

[Thomas]

Originally posted by mountainsage
As I read the responese, one though eat at me, are we talking about a teenager or an adult when discussing the details of the importance of competition. It appears to me that your responses are of a general nature, where as, my comment are more specific to an adults.

All have made some very good comments and I'm still working on getting my brain around some of the thoughts. Losing is a sobering issue only to those who believe that losing is not an option. Again, any positive or negative trait that are shown in competition are shown many time prior in the dojang, a competition isn't necessary to demonstrate positive reaction to negative situations. As far as the being in a different place with different people thing, I can only speak for myself in that my past experiance as an athlete and politican has trained the ability to ignore distractions and situations. What usually gets me is self doubt of my ability, a me vs. myself situation or a sudden burst of ego gets in the way.

Mountainsage


Yes, I am giving general advice that I would give to ANY student of ANY age. The experience of competition is possibly more important to someone with less all-around experience but it also applies to anyone. I respect your backgound, but with no disrespect intended, if I were your instructor here is what I would say SPECIFICALLY (please don't be offended):

(1) You seem to think that your experience in other areas gives you the equivilent experience in TKD. I agree that it helps, but in the end, experience in politics, work and athletics does NOT equal experience in your martial art of choice.

(2) Your stubborn refusal to participate in a tournament in your style of martial art, of which you may be instructing someday (or at leats be a role model in by wearing a black belt) indicates to me that you may be unsure of your abilities, afraid to compete, or too confident in your abilites (arrogance). In any of these cases, I would be reluctant to promote you without having seen you in these situations... which are important ways to test your behavior and abilities in TKD outside of our own studio.

(3) If you have any ideas for an alternative assessment, let me know and I will think about it.

Mountainsage: I wrote this as I would address one of my students in a similar situation and according to the philosophy of my dojang. Please do not take it as a personal attack.

[mountainsage]

I can't be offended. I learned a long time ago opinion and believes are like hindends, everyone has one and is intitled to express them when asked. If I didn't want your opinion, I should have kept my mouth shut:D. It is good to recieve opinion from other teachers in my art, it would be better to train with them to, yet I have the poor farmer thing to deal with. As to #1, sparring in a martial sport does not equate to making a person a better martial artist, just a better sport sparrer. I believe it depends on the individual. Stressing the body and mind is the same no matter the if it is speaking to a large crowd of people or sparring in competition, the mind and body only recognize the stress, not the situation. #2, Yes stubbornness, which has served me well for many years throught many trial and tribulations. If sport sparring is the measure of a black belt, then TKD is truly in it's final stages of death as an martial art. Think about if TKD had never been an olympic sport, would sport sparring be as much of a holy grail as it is now. I am curious about how you define a role model in martial arts, if sport sparring is that much of a condition of a role model, might I suggest reassesment of your personal definition.I am none of the options that you provide, yet I am a combination of all. I am a large man, (6'2", 290lbs), with little speed. My natural skill are opposite to those necessary to compete in sport sparring and I do refuse to go into a situation that I am on the losing end before I get there. I would say I am a realist about my situation as it applies to sport sparring. Forms competition I have no excuse for other than I a see no point in traveling six hours to spend three plus minutes doing a form to travel six hours home. Again, if sport sparring is such a large portion for promotion, then TKD will remain the butt of MA joke. I've met a few very skilled sparrers that were very poor MA. Please do not confuse arrogants with confidence, arrogants is what most sport sparring promotes, confidence is what we are training for in the MA. I believe that if we had the opportunity to train together, your base opinion would change. Fingers are getting tired, so I'll quit there for now.

Mountainsage

[Thomas]

"As to #1, sparring in a martial sport does not equate to making a person a better martial artist, just a better sport sparrer. I believe it depends on the individual. Stressing the body and mind is the same no matter the if it is speaking to a large crowd of people or sparring in competition, the mind and body only recognize the stress, not the situation."

* Sparring is the practical application of what you are learning. Tournament sparring is very restricted, mainly for purposes of standardized evaluation and for safety. Sparring in the dojang should entail a wide variety of skills and rules including tournament rules-style and including "no-rules"style. In my opinion, training in the martial arts without sparring is like learning to drive from a video without actually doing it.

" #2, Yes stubbornness, which has served me well for many years throught many trial and tribulations. If sport sparring is the measure of a black belt, then TKD is truly in it's final stages of death as an martial art. Think about if TKD had never been an olympic sport, would sport sparring be as much of a holy grail as it is now. "

* I never said that sparring (let alone sport sparring) is the measure of a black belt. Sparring is one of the ways that we as instructors can evaluate how a student would behave in an actual self defence situation. It does not 100% replicate a real encounter but it is much closer than public speaking is. Black belts can look good, do forms well and so on, but id they CAN'T fight... they shouldn't be a black belt. Sparring is how we test fighting ability. Confidence and experience form sources other than practcing fighting may help your confidence and self-esteem but they do NOT magically make you a better fighter. Fighting practice should.


"I am curious about how you define a role model in martial arts, if sport sparring is that much of a condition of a role model, might I suggest reassesment of your personal definition.I am none of the options that you provide, yet I am a combination of all. I am a large man, (6'2", 290lbs), with little speed. My natural skill are opposite to those necessary to compete in sport sparring and I do refuse to go into a situation that I am on the losing end before I get there. I would say I am a realist about my situation as it applies to sport sparring."

*Role models. Wearing a black belt in a TKD school means that you have reached a certain level of ability. Junior students look up to you for help and guidance, and many black belts become instructors. A TKD black belt that cannot fight will probably not be looked up to in class and because of this, the words of wisdom they may impart may fall upon deaf ears.

*It's funny that you mention your size. I am a big guy as well (see photo section)... 5'9"and 260 lbs. I have trained my body through sparring and martial arts to increase my speed and abilities. I fight to my strengths, tournament rules or not. To avoid sparring because you're not good at it means you'll never be good at it. One usually loses many times before winning.. if the challenge is adequate.

"Forms competition I have no excuse for other than I a see no point in traveling six hours to spend three plus minutes doing a form to travel six hours home. Again, if sport sparring is such a large portion for promotion, then TKD will remain the butt of MA joke. I've met a few very skilled sparrers that were very poor MA. Please do not confuse arrogants with confidence, arrogants is what most sport sparring promotes, confidence is what we are training for in the MA. I believe that if we had the opportunity to train together, your base opinion would change. Fingers are getting tired, so I'll quit there for now."

* My base opinion is that all elements of TKD, from forms to sparing to self defence to the 5 tenets are all key components. I personally do not like sport sparring but I do it for several reasons, namely because it is required in TKD, it practices techniques against an unwilling opponent, it tests the bravery,resolve and humility of an artist, and it's the only practical way to test fighting skills. Also, as an instructor in TKD, many of my students WANT to learn sport sparring... which has been one of the main reasons TKD has spread as a martial art. I must teach it... therefore I must be good at it. It would be selfish for me to say "I don't like (forms/sparring/etc) so I don't do it."As and instructor I do not have that option.

The opinions and advice I have offered is that which I would offer to a student in my own school. Do not take it as a personal attack, but if it lets you look differently at an issue, good. If you were my student and this issue came up, I would be worried about your confidence in your skills and in your skills as a fighter. If you refused to go to a tournament, I would probably choose a night and put you in action (sparring) against some fast senior students... maybe even two on one and see how you fared. Ideally i would be looking to see how you handle the inevitable fatigue, stress and roughing up.. because eventually you would wear down and get roughed up (I would rotate your opponents). Only under this kind of stress could I evaluate your performance in a stressful situation where you'd have to use your skills to defend yourself. If you quit, gave up, or refused, I would not promote you... mainly because that is not the kind of black belt I would want in my school. I want someone who works hard, fights hard, and doesn't give up.

Good training

[Thomas]

Something to keep in mind, Mountainsage, is that your opposition to sport sparring and desire (I presume) to focus on the more practical side may be one of the reasons your master wants you to compete... to see how you handle undesirable aspects of your art.
For a person of such strong convictions, you would probably make a great black belt and someday instructor, bringing a word of realism and balance to a sport mentality. You should consider that if you fullfill the responsibilites necessary to becoame a black belt, you will someday be able to pass on your own impressions/attitudes/philosphy of martial arts.

[mountainsage]

I can't speak to the masters reason for requiring sport sparring because I don't speak to him that often. He's in California and the school I am a part of is in Oregon. Rank doesn't impress me that much anyway. Remember we are the art of baby blackbelts. A point of information that might have been missed earlier in the conversation is that I do spar in my school on a regular basis. In fact I am moving very little today because of sparring last night in my red belt test. Kick a classmates elbow with a roundhouse, has him lined up and was going to kick him through the closest wall and hit his elbow because I didn't get my hip turn over enough. I need a uniform pants change after that trick.
It is evident we have different visions of TKD from our discussions. I can accept that, difference makes the world interesting. I know that change will not occur if people don't stand their ground on their beliefs. I am a master at tilting at windmills and championing lost causes. I hope this discussion has given you a good basis to understand that one individual that may come along with a similar strong belief. I remember a quote from a movie, don't even remember the name, that went "Doctor and lawyers we have a plenty, what we need is a few more dreamers."

Mountainsage

[mountainsage]

I was contenplating your though about sparring being an area were juniors look to senior as a measure of ability and acomplishment. It is far more important as senior to show up. Junior are impressed with sparring, but the they notice more when senior aren't in attendance or working hard. We have a couple of BB that are injured on a regular basis and don't show up to teach or just show that it is important to be there. I find this a very poor example. Other than family obligations and my death, I can't find a reason not to be at the hall. You can train anybody to spar, sport or otherwise, but you can't teach the ability to show up.

Mountainsage

[Thomas]

Remember we are the art of baby blackbelts.

Not in all schools and not in mine.



I hope this discussion has given you a good basis to understand that one individual that may come along with a similar strong belief. I remember a quote from a movie, don't even remember the name, that went "Doctor and lawyers we have a plenty, what we need is a few more dreamers."

I think if you re-read my posts, you will see that I advocate looking at the sitaution and looking for alternative means to resolve the problem. I think at this point, now that you've gotten some feedback from people in the same art, under different masters, it is probably time to make one of several choices:

(1) Swallow your pride and do a couple of tournaments so that you can be promoted IN ORDER TO be able to pass on your strong beliefs to future students as an instructor down the road.

(2) Stick with your principles and refuse to grade for 1st dan. There is nothingf wrong with being a red belt and not dan grade. The only downside here is that you may miss out on opportunities that are open to black belts (teaching, seminars, black-belt classes, etc.)

(3) Quit (although from what I know about you, this isn't an option)

NO MATTER what you choose, before making your decision, I would strongly recommend taking these concerns and issues to your instructor and master as soon as you can.My advice only comes from my own philosophy and school... which has no bearing on yours... but your master's does.

Please update us on your decisions... I wish you the best and really hope that something can be worked out for your promotion to 1st dan. Your more conservative style and beliefs about TKD are those that I personally believe should be taught... and to be taught, we need black belts who think like that.

(P.S. Your post about sparring and black belts not participating is a good one. I agree with you... good post)

[mountainsage]

Well Thomas, I think we've beat this dead horse well enough. It has been a pleasure to discuss this issue with you. You have been the only person to show much interest. You are correct that #3 ins't an option, #1 is always a doable, yet not acceptable to me, #2 I've been considering for sometime and have concluded that I will probably chose that one. There's a quote by (I think) Royce Gracie, "A belt only covers 2 inches of your butt, the rest is your responsiblity." Having a black belt will not change that fact. Country singer Aaron Tippen has a line from a song that goes,"If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything."

Mountainsage

[Thomas]

I think it is admirable that you stick to your philosophy and ideals. I would imagine that somewhere down the road, you will wear a black belt... whether through this school or through another... whether in TKD or another.

I was due to test from my TKD black belt when I received the offer to go to Korea. I went and while there fell into Hapkido, essentially putting off my Taekwondo testing for about 3 years. Eventually I did return to TKD and dan up (currently holding a 3rd dan rank). The rank itself has no meaning, aside from that which your master, youself, and your school assigns it. Its practicla meaning comes about sometimes when applying to seminars or for attending "black belt or advanced" classes. The main importance (in my opinion) in TKD is this is when students begin to be groomed as instructors in the hopes that their unique knowledge will be spread later to new students.

I have known many people who reached senior red belt and then put off 1st dan for several years... the experience makes them stronger... AS LONG AS THEY STAY WITH IT. Most of them eventually earned their black belt. I wish you the best, especially in training and I hope that you will go far in the martial arts, whatever route you choose.