hapkido: traditions, philosophy and technique

[God]

i recently purchased this book. i have never heard such positive raving over a book in my life!

has anyone here read it?

thoughts?

hapkido seems really practical. hopefully i can teach myself a little if this book is as great as everyone claims it is.

[waya]

I have heard of the book, but never read it. I would say though, that teaching yourself Hapkido from a book will be almost impossible in my opinion. There are far too many very small, technical positioning and movements involved in the technique that have to be seen and felt to properly execute them without hurting yourself or someone else accidentally.

[God]

Originally posted by waya
I have heard of the book, but never read it. I would say though, that teaching yourself Hapkido from a book will be almost impossible in my opinion. There are far too many very small, technical positioning and movements involved in the technique that have to be seen and felt to properly execute them without hurting yourself or someone else accidentally.

:rolleyes:

i'm so sick of hearing this. the body isn't a magical mystery that only asians can understand, and can only be communicated through word of mouth.

just get a bloody sparring partner. try out the techniques. if you break your partners arm, congratulations, the technique or a reasonable facsimile thereof works, and your partner is a dumbass who didn't tap out.

it's my strict professional :D opinion that the people who say this are either MA instructors who fear losing their jobs and therefore convince themselves MA must be learned in person, brainwashed students of such instructors, or practitioners of a more practical, simple MA who are jealous of the incommunicable intricacies of qigong and aikido. if it's mysterious and secret, it makes it a better art. :D

i've never had a problem learning from a book. as long as i spar on it with my friends enough, i can make the technique work...as well as the book wrote it to be. the only problems i've had with techniques were blatant inadequecies in the book i learned it from. i could point to specific phrases and ask a specific question about it, because the book obviously doesn't explain it. in techniques that just wouldn't work even without specific questions, it was very obvious why it wouldn't work. after grappling for about 30 seconds, you get an extremely good feel for the leverage of the muscles of the human body.

sometimes you have to reinvent the wheel, but it's easier than you think.

if you think that all books leave out specific intricacies of most techniques that an instructor would not, then, well, read more books.

i'm not just going to scan through this book, declare myself 6th dan and then open up a hapkido school. i'm going to look at each technique, try them on every one i know 100 times, try them when i spar my friends to see if i can do them, do this forever and ever, and then say "i know a little hapkido".

[waya]

And if you miss the small movements on the hand or wrist when applying a lock, and it doesn't get properly applied and your own arm is broken instead?
I never said it was some magical mystery, but no book will show the smaller movements. Order Bong Soo Han's video set if you really want to train Hapkido without an active instructor. THe price isn't bad and the quality of the tapes is very good.

[Marku]

i really want to get that book, ive got a smaller version of it. how much did it cost you?

[antifuse]

Just as a general interest question, why would you choose to train from a book as opposed to having a qualified instructor? If it's a matter of money, or a lack of qualified instructors, that I can understand. But otherwise, I would much rather have someone show it to me, rather than trying to decipher from a book and trial-and-error my way to doing it correctly. Not only is it easier, it's also faster and less dangerous.

[shadow warrior]

Comment:

You just keep buying those books and learning the techniques depicted therein. After many years you MAY be able to determine which techniques to "forget about" because they are USELESS.

ONE of the glaring omissions in the book in question is there are NO counters to the twisitng techniques depicted in the book!! This is called "Kill the self defense".

But then I have never seen ANY counters to twisting in any Hapkido book or tape. Only the old guys know those!! They are not about to put that skill set in books.

Not EVERYTHING you believe is true!!


Do not think dishonestly!!

[Saz]

Originally posted by God
:rolleyes:

i'm so sick of hearing this. the body isn't a magical mystery that only asians can understand, and can only be communicated through word of mouth.


Nobody said it was. All Waya said was its near impossible to learn it properly from a book, and he's bang on the money. Showing, not telling, is the best way to learn.

I'm so sick of hearing people who come on here and think Martial Arts is so trivial/easy they can pick it up from a book, then throw their toy's out of the pram when people don't pat them on the back and tell them its OK. If you aren't prepared for a negative answer as well as a positive one, don't post questions.

Talking about breaking your partner's arm is just plain irresponsible. Thats another reason for actually learning from a proper instructor, training in a safe environment where injuries are kept to a minumim.

But you obviously know best, what with your months of book reading experience and all! :rolleyes:

[Disciple]

I believe it is possible to learn techniques from a book, provided you have the basic ujnderstanding of what kind of techniques and its principle.
In a detailed enough and well photographed book, I think your could explain a few techigues to an audiene that has the basic understanding of the prinicples. Like Trainig techniques you definately can, learning a new strike if you are well versed in a striking art, learning the Eku Bo if you KNow the Bo. Learning the Tonfa if you know unarmed and short stick.

[God]

i think i forgot to mention in this particular rant since i've mentioned it about 500 times in other posts:mad: that i do trian at a school and NO i'm NOT trying to become a hapkido master. to get a grasp of some techniques to apply to fightin/self defense situations is all i ask...hopefully a lot of techniques. i can counter throws and what not from my school's teachings and a ju-jitsu book i have. not every throw, of course not...actually only a moderate number. my ju-jitsu is sloppy. i can apply ju-jitsu techniques to an untrained and non-clever attacker, however, many of the intricacies and details of the techniques are lost on me and i can't beat my blue belt friend.

it works against people i pick fake fights with...and i learned the techniques through a book.

i'm not going to wind up like those 30 year TKD grand masters who get put in a wrestler's guard and lose to a 17 year old...but i'm not trying to be a grandmaster of everything...i need to cover all my bases, even if the covering is gossamer.

I AM NOT AGAINST INSTRUCTORS.

this is the only way i can learn hapkido, BJJ, chin na, white crane... due to the afforementioned limit of funds and time. and if i EVER break my arm doing a technique i learned from a book, i'll have a parade in your honor.

thank you KGirl for putting me, the insolent and insurgent MA newcomer, in my place. you have obviously given it a great deal of thought (as you have been doing MA for years, plenty of time to weigh the pros and cons), and obviously examined and critiqued all books, determining in much the same way that the average person determines their political affiliations, that indeed, it is impossible to ever learn anything from any media other than paying an instructor to teach you. this most DEFINATELY includes sitting in and watching a class being conducted...it is an absolutely crucial learning experience to pay your instructors...if you don't, don't come crying to me when your spinal column falls out of your back.

i bought a ju-jitsu book. in it there is a technique for escaping a wrist grab...

1. Renzo grabs Royler's left wirst iwth his right hand.
2. In response to Renzo's right-handed grip upon his left wrist, Royler quickly steps back with his right foot. This creates space between him and his attacker. This space will be useful when he comes to escape. Royler clenches his fist and rotates his left wirst under and inside Renzo's right hand. His left palm turns up to the ceiling as he does this movement.

Note: The key to this movement is the idea of turning your left wrist under and inside your attacker's right wrist. This directs your escape toward the weakest part of your attacker's grip--the thumb. From here it is easy to retract your hand out of the strongest grip.


3. Once you have gotten to the position show in the detail photograph, escape is simple. Jerk your hand back toward yourself, using the space you have created between you and your attacker. Practice breaking the grip as quickly as possible. The longer the aggressor holds you, the more time e has to do damage with his other hand. Once having escaped, do not leave your arm hanging out so he can grab it again. Retract it and be ready to defend yourself.

obviously, the main flaw in this description is the lack of clarification. you do not move your head into your opponents chest while performing this technique...many beginners fail to realize this. this will put them in a very bad position. if i tried this on the street i most definately would have done this and gotten killed. thsu proving, no techniques can be learned even nominally from books. if you try them, you will die instantly.

[God]

oh yes KGirl, i have no reason to listen to anything you say about books since you clearly aren't an avid enough reader to tell that my comment on arm breaking was obviously a reflection of my support in books.my question wasn't "should i learn everything from books" it was "is this a good book on hapkido?"

OBVIOUSLY relative to other hapkido books.

[antifuse]

this is the only way i can learn hapkido, BJJ, chin na, white crane... due to the afforementioned limit of funds and time

Ahh see, this is where I think people had misunderstood you. You actually didn't mention your limits of funds and time. :)

[Bulldog]

I just got the Bong Soo Han training tapes and was very happy with the quality and instruction demonstrated.

Seeing how I have never trained with or in Hapkido, I thought it was very well put together...

It was funny to see a lot of things that I already do in Taekwondo.
I can now see where Kuk Sool Won "borrows" from heavily.

I think the important thing to remember with books and videos, IMO...

Books are great aids for those who have a strong foundation and understanding of basic martial arts principles. I too have used books to try to expand my understanding. I have also used videos to get a correct view of how things should be done or executed too. As far as the trial and error approach, that would be up to your training partner or "victim"...ha ha

I know for myself...my first martial arts instructor and me will often "try things" on each other. But, safety to both of us is of the utmost importance. Grabbing somebody by the wrist and applying a technique could cause serious damage, if the person you are working out with does not know how to react to the technique...ie. falling, throws, rolls...

I'm not judging the validity of using books or videos for anyone. I firmly believe that a personal instructor is always best. But, I am thankful for many great books and videos...because there have been times that I could not find a quality instructor or school to train with...

Even now, I use some videos to brush up on some things...mainly self defense...I don't really need someone telling me how to throw a roundhouse kick, ya know? That's just my preference.

Best wishes,

Aaron

[mountainsage]

I purchased this book a couople of years ago and resold it to concentrate on TKD. It was a very comprehesive book on the art of HKD and I highly recommend it to any practitioner. The same author compiled a similar book about TKD which I own and can also recommend. This brings me to a question that is a bit of topic, but close. Define a strong Base in a particular art? I am a red belt in WTF TKD with some work with HKD as a self-defense aspect, would my training be considered a strong base? I have read numerous times this statement about strong base, but it is never really defined. I would have to define a strong base as a BB in a similar art, example; my TKD training gives me a rough idea of some of the basic aspects and skills of HKD, punches, kicks, and stuff.

Mountainsage

[Saz]

Originally posted by God
thank you KGirl for putting me, the insolent and insurgent MA newcomer, in my place.


Glad I could be of service :D

[LilBunnyRabbit]

hapkido seems really practical. hopefully i can teach myself a little if this book is as great as everyone claims it is.



my question wasn't "should i learn everything from books" it was "is this a good book on hapkido?"

We need to work on your phrasing of questions I think, or possibly your consistency. I'm not sure which yet, although I've got a good guess.


oh yes KGirl, i have no reason to listen to anything you say about books since you clearly aren't an avid enough reader to tell that my comment on arm breaking was obviously a reflection of my support in books.

What stuns me is that with your massive time and money restrictions, you've got the time to read and practice the techniques in a book so many times over, while an actual instructor teaching the technique might take a full, say, five minutes?

[Kwan Jang]

-I would agree that for someone with a strong base (will give my definition in a moment), books and videos can be a valuable learning tool. Obviously these are not any type of substitute for a qualified instructor. You could learn surgery by trial and error as well, but I would not volunteer to be your test subject. by the same token, I would not want you experimenting on joint manipulations on me going by a book.

-I would define a strong or solid base in martial arts as having a good working knowledge of the princples and body mechanics of the techniques involved. One should also have the physical condition/ability and the mental focus to pull these things off. I consider this being able to adapt to all ranges of combat. As an example, I do not consider groudfighting very different from trapping or punching or kicking. There are obviously physical differences, but the principles are pretty much the same. When a practioner can do this, I fell they have a solid base and this is pretty much what I consider a first degree black belt. Obviously, there are many who wear this color of cloth around their waists who lack this and some who already have this and are not wearing black. (The Kwan Jang Nim David Hughes simplified definition of what is a black belt: A student that I or any instructor in ANY style/system can give virtually any technique or concept in the arts and can with minimal difficulty 1)physically be well conditioned and athletic enough to pick it up (barring health limitations/injuries) 2)mentally have an understanding of strategy and concepts to be able to learn and adapt and apply quickly and effectively. 3)Spiritually to have learned to push themselves both mentally and physically past their comfort zones. They have been to "the wall" and broken through it on a regular basis and know how deep their inner well of resources are and can go there on a moments notice. That way if I say "jump", they don't waste time asking "How high?" They go for it with all they've got and then some. To me, that is a black belt, whether they wear one or not. At this point, I can REALLY teach you. Until then, while you are still learning, I am just helping you to know yourself well enough to get you to that point.

-To "god", I think the reason you got the reception you did was that many experienced MA's are tired of the goofballs who think they can become proficient by reading books, watching videos and movies and playing video games like tekken. At first, you did not distinguish yourself from this group in this thread and many are a little over-sensetive to this. However, a bit of friendly advise if you are wise enough to heed it. Martial arts begin and end with respect. The reason for this is when you have truly dangerous men and women coming together to learn and grow using a physical medium that could easily cause severe injury or death, this attitude is a neccesity. As a strength athlete, I will not get under a bar with 500 lbs.(+) on it, if I not only have a spotter, but one who I know I can trust with my life. Because while it is my job to lift the weight, if something goes wrong, my health and even my life are on the line.

-On a board like this, the stakes are not quite so high, but as a martial artist the respect should always remain. From what I've read from your posts, IMO you showed blatant disrespect to two of the mods. These people donate their time and also have the ability and discression to remove you (or any of us) if we don't play nice. If you choose to stay here, you may want to keep that fact in mind.

[God]

Originally posted by LilBunnyRabbit
We need to work on your phrasing of questions I think, or possibly your consistency. I'm not sure which yet, although I've got a good guess.


What stuns me is that with your massive time and money restrictions, you've got the time to read and practice the techniques in a book so many times over, while an actual instructor teaching the technique might take a full, say, five minutes?

there was no question. i don't care what your opinions are. hopefully i can teach myself a little hapkido. is this a good book? i didn't say, "will be a 5th dan in hapkido after reading this book?"

you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

and clearly you do not know how time works. you see, martial arts schools do not work around my schedule. often times i have 2 to 3 hours between school and work that can not be filled by any martial art school in the midwest. the time problems are that the only times my job wants me to work are the only times any local schools have classes. i go to school full time and work part time...i'm also in a band. let's not get started on why i spend so much time on the computer, because, honestly...i seriously have a problem.

kwan jang-likewise, i'm infuriated by the users of this forum who pounce on buzzwords like it's their job. if anyone says "best", you'll get 40 to 50 posts telling them how "the MA has to be the best for you..there is no one best."..even if that's not what the post was asking, even remotely...it's ridiculous. i'm more sick of reading people's preachy, banal MA platitudes than seeing 12 year olds talk about how they want to learn kung fu so they can fly on top of the mall...that's at least entertaining.

bear in mind...i chose my words ridiculously conservatively. i picked every word carefully so as not to incur the wrath of the banal and their ilk. and yet i still get every member's memoirs and essays on why learning from a trainer is better than learning from books. thank you, i know. i didn't ask you if i should learn hapkido from this book. i asked if it was a good book? is it over hyped? frankly i don't care about your opinions [on the subject of learning from books in general-edit], because no matter how often i've explained them, no one cares. they're just so excited they found a perfect place to place their plattitudes.

so please, back off.

and on the topic of respect, putting words in my mouth and reprimanding me for them on multiple occasions is enough to make anyone explode, i should think. but i apologize nonetheless. blame kgirl for upping the ante

[LilBunnyRabbit]

you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

Reading comprehension level which is off the chart if you must know, at least, it was off the chart the last time I had a check. Five years ago.


bear in mind...i chose my words ridiculously conservatively. i picked every word carefully so as not to incur the wrath of the banal and their ilk.

Its not showing now, but fair enough. If you really wanted to avoid offending people, you could simply have left off the comment about teaching yourself a little, at which point you'd most likely have just got a book review from people.


and on the topic of respect, putting words in my mouth and reprimanding me for them on multiple occasions is enough to make anyone explode, i should think. but i apologize nonetheless. blame kgirl for upping the ante

And making personal attacks against someone who has actually trained is easily a cause for a much more justified explosion, but hey, look. I haven't yet. In fact, as yet I've not really exploded against anyone on the board.

The only words I or anyone else put in your mouth were the ones that you typed. I and they may have misunderstood what you typed, but whether that's down to me, them or you is difficult to say. As for what words they were:


i'm so sick of hearing this. the body isn't a magical mystery that only asians can understand, and can only be communicated through word of mouth.

Not exactly designed to encourage people to just give you a book review. Inflammatory, seemingly designed simply to argue with the viewpoint that books are not an adequate tool as the sole learning method.


just get a bloody sparring partner. try out the techniques. if you break your partners arm, congratulations, the technique or a reasonable facsimile thereof works, and your partner is a dumbass who didn't tap out.

How many people new to the arts know when to tap out? How many people have their instructor pull them up, because they're applying a technique dangerously? If you break his arm, its no one's fault but your own. You are the one applying the technique. You are the one who should be able to judge the power necessary.


it's my strict professional opinion that the people who say this are either MA instructors who fear losing their jobs and therefore convince themselves MA must be learned in person, brainwashed students of such instructors, or practitioners of a more practical, simple MA who are jealous of the incommunicable intricacies of qigong and aikido.

Professional huh? Don't even think that really needs a comment. Do you think perhaps the martial arts instructors have come across the type of person who learns from a book before, and wanders into a class claiming to know 'a little martial arts', before its revealed that they've simply learned and practiced on their friends, and are a danger not only to themselves but the other students? I know I've come across people like that.

I also know that just because a martial art is simple and practical does not mean it can be communicated by a book. You'd think that a standard karate punch is fairly simple, yet having been to classes with a book-fu student its amazing the mistakes you can pick up from a book.


i've never had a problem learning from a book. as long as i spar on it with my friends enough, i can make the technique work

Spar with a student practiced in the martial art, even someone who's just been to enough lessons to learn the techniques that you've taught yourself. Or just spar with someone who's fought before, not one of your mates.


after grappling for about 30 seconds, you get an extremely good feel for the leverage of the muscles of the human body.

Which doesn't mean that you know how to apply it in a grappling situation where the other person is working against you. I wouldn't be suprised if you could apply it against someone weaker than you, simply through brute strength. Now try applying it against someone stronger, or someone with actual training.


if you think that all books leave out specific intricacies of most techniques that an instructor would not, then, well, read more books.

I will quite happily guarantee that I not only have more, but have read more books on martial arts than you. They can be useful, in partnership with training.


i'm going to look at each technique, try them on every one i know 100 times, try them when i spar my friends to see if i can do them,

Try them on someone who has actually used the technique against a genuine opponent, or been taught the technique properly?

[God]

Originally posted by LilBunnyRabbit
Reading comprehension level which is off the chart if you must know, at least, it was off the chart the last time I had a check. Five years ago.



Its not showing now, but fair enough. If you really wanted to avoid offending people, you could simply have left off the comment about teaching yourself a little, at which point you'd most likely have just got a book review from people.


Hey, is that what I could have done? Reminds me of a commercial I saw... "I would have parked a little closer".


And making personal attacks against someone who has actually trained is easily a cause for a much more justified explosion, but hey, look. I haven't yet. In fact, as yet I've not really exploded against anyone on the board.


Thank you. I have actually trained. Such implied contrast is nothing like a personal attack though. Thank you for your humble, respectful, just enlightening.

If you've trained you know all about all MA, and all training methods therein. At which point do you think this thread was in the stages of "friendly information exchange"? As far as I could tell, other than my jocular attack and "eye rolling", I was being civil until kgirl flat out called me irresponsible. She didn't call the act I hypothetically supposed irresponsible, she called what I said irresponsible.


The only words I or anyone else put in your mouth were the ones that you typed. I and they may have misunderstood what you typed, but whether that's down to me, them or you is difficult to say. As for what words they were:


Maybe I shouldn't have asked that question I didn't ask, then? It surely wasn't ME who asked, "should I learn Hapkido from this book?". It wasn't ME who asked anyone's opinion on learning Hapkido from books. I think I recall someone, however, telling me it was irresponsible to ask those questions. Maybe I shouldn't have asked them, then.


Not exactly designed to encourage people to just give you a book review. Inflammatory, seemingly designed simply to argue with the viewpoint that books are not an adequate tool as the sole learning method.


That was the original post. Thank you for quoting me on that. Those comments were not in response to anyone's belittling, or perceived belittling. Who knows. Maybe they claim to have chosen their words ridiculously conservatively....but it's not showing now. Maybe they should have left out the part that was infuriating to me? Because obviously I didn't take it as intended. I think it was wrong for them to say "YOU ARE A FOOL AND YOU SHOULD NOT DO THIS. I HATE YOU." That's a direct quote, btw.


How many people new to the arts know when to tap out? How many people have their instructor pull them up, because they're applying a technique dangerously? If you break his arm, its no one's fault but your own. You are the one applying the technique. You are the one who should be able to judge the power necessary.


You have a point. If I were to be so stupid as to apply force to a point where it would hurt, recklessly, without any sense or feel, then I shouldn't be learning from books.

And of course, when I spar, I always pick random people and don't inform them of the technique I'm going to be doing, nor do I inform them of what they should be doing. I simply attack random passersby. Thanks for the advice.


Professional huh? Don't even think that really needs a comment.


Actually had training, huh? For once my sarcasm was in agreement with you.

Do you think perhaps the martial arts instructors have come across the type of person who learns from a book before, and wanders into a class claiming to know 'a little martial arts', before its revealed that they've simply learned and practiced on their friends, and are a danger not only to themselves but the other students? I know I've come across people like that.


Interesting that you have conclusive anecdotal evidence that reading books makes you a danger to all that are around you. What a teaser. Maybe some specifics would help?

Or we could have a semantics pissing match. Which is more apt for this situation?


I also know that just because a martial art is simple and practical does not mean it can be communicated by a book. You'd think that a standard karate punch is fairly simple, yet having been to classes with a book-fu student its amazing the mistakes you can pick up from a book.


I wouldn't consider a punch to be simple. Flimsy knuckles need some complicated protection. :D


Spar with a student practiced in the martial art, even someone who's just been to enough lessons to learn the techniques that you've taught yourself. Or just spar with someone who's fought before, not one of your mates.


:D
Good advice. You're a little too late. I bought my aikido books and videos after finding out one of my mates was taking aikido. I was sparring with the mates that go to the MA school I attend...Although we were mainly practicing techniques. Guess who I practice BJJ with? Yep...

Renzo Gracie himself...:D
His real name is Mike though, and he's just a blue belt.


Which doesn't mean that you know how to apply it in a grappling situation where the other person is working against you. I wouldn't be suprised if you could apply it against someone weaker than you, simply through brute strength. Now try applying it against someone stronger, or someone with actual training.


:D Thus the point of the sparring. And having football players in the family. [not soccer]


I will quite happily guarantee that I not only have more, but have read more books on martial arts than you. They can be useful, in partnership with training.


I will quite happily agree. Having already known the techniques, however, there's reasonable doubt you have a hard time seeing things from an untrained student...especially one who comes from a cross-training background...You might have a coniption because the book doesn't tell you to hold without the thumbs, but maybe to someone else, it's implicit from the nature of the hold and the pictures. Or maybe it's implicit to the student whose instructor tells you to not put your thumbs where your attacker will break them :D


Try them on someone who has actually used the technique against a genuine opponent, or been taught the technique properly?

We'll see what's optimal. I'll ponder this.

Note: Halfway through my comments about sparring, I realized I made comments about me sparring in a completely different thread. D'oh! Since it's easier than retyping all that garbage I just typed....

I thought I had mentioned that I did some light-hearted sparring with my kung fu chums in this thread.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Thank you. I have actually trained. Such implied contrast is nothing like a personal attack though. Thank you for your humble, respectful, just enlightening.

When did I say I was humble or respectful?


Thank you. I have actually trained. Such implied contrast is nothing like a personal attack though. Thank you for your humble, respectful, just enlightening.

How long for, and in how many arts? Never mind, it wouldn't make any difference anyway.


If you've trained you know all about all MA, and all training methods therein.

Ah, this could be part of where you're misunderstanding things. Despite the fact that training is infinitely better than learning from books (it actually helps for one thing), it doesn't teach you everything.


I was being civil until kgirl flat out called me irresponsible. She didn't call the act I hypothetically supposed irresponsible, she called what I said irresponsible.

What you were suggesting was just plain irresponsible, therefore you were irresponsible for trying to suggest that other people could benefit from the same foolish arrogance.


Maybe I shouldn't have asked that question I didn't ask, then? It surely wasn't ME who asked, "should I learn Hapkido from this book?".

True, you didn't ask a question, you just flat out stated that you were planning to try and teach yourself from the book. An actual question might have got an answer, instead of the comments on it that you got. Have you noticed the number of experienced people for training from books is close to none? Does that mean that everyone who's experienced is 'brainwashed'? Your own word.


Maybe they should have left out the part that was infuriating to me? Because obviously I didn't take it as intended. I think it was wrong for them to say "YOU ARE A FOOL AND YOU SHOULD NOT DO THIS. I HATE YOU." That's a direct quote, btw.

Well, nothing else seemed to be getting through, and it looks like that didn't get through either, so I guess there's no hope.


And of course, when I spar, I always pick random people and don't inform them of the technique I'm going to be doing, nor do I inform them of what they should be doing. I simply attack random passersby. Thanks for the advice.

Nice attempt at sarcasm, a little poor on the follow-through though. Lets try again some other time.


Interesting that you have conclusive anecdotal evidence that reading books makes you a danger to all that are around you. What a teaser. Maybe some specifics would help?

Well, lets see. None have been able to hurt anyone in my CKD classes, but other than those...there's the idiots in a TKD class I went to for a while who 'learned' TKD from a book. One of them tried a kick that they'd taught themselves from the book, and claimed to have practiced over and over. Grand result, dislocated knee.

The second one in that class knew about sparring, after all, he'd read lots of books about martial arts so he could spar well. He swung a punch that didn't even come close, tried another, and missed with that too. When I threw a return rechnique his response was lovely. Try to grab my wrist and throw me. With both of his hands.

I've got other fun stories like that if you want them, but those're the first two that come to mind.


I wouldn't consider a punch to be simple. Flimsy knuckles need some complicated protection.

Actually if you know the basics of a punch its fairly hard to break knuckles, though it is still possible. I've never actually come across someone who's broken their knuckles from throwing a punch in a fight (except one where their opponent lowered their head, breaking knuckles, and also getting themself knocked out) in all of the time that I've been training. I do know people who've broken knuckles from trying breaking techniques badly however.


Renzo Gracie himself...
His real name is Mike though, and he's just a blue belt.

That'd be this Renzo Gracie (http://www.renzogracie.com/)? Interesting. And here was me thinking that he was in Manhattan. Or perhaps its a different one.


I will quite happily agree. Having already known the techniques, however, there's reasonable doubt you have a hard time seeing things from an untrained student...especially one who comes from a cross-training background.

Ah, you've gone for the assumption everyone seems to make. Just because I've trained in one art for eleven years does not mean that's my only art. I can quite happily approach techniques as a new student, looking for new techniques in an art. Besides, being untrained in the art simply makes it more dangerous to practice from a book without any training.


We'll see what's optimal. I'll ponder this.

You're thinking at least. That's a start.

Anyway, this thread is no longer constructive in any way, it merely rehashes previous things that you've said while other people bring in new arguments against the same thing you've been suggesting from the start.

Here we go a-locking.