Home of Pencak Silat

[Van Zandt]

Hi,

My wife is Indonesian. She was born in Bandung (Java), which her mother claims is home of Pencak Silat. I know Cimande is named after the town where it was formed, but I was wondering what the link was between PS and Bandung?

Thanks.

Kind regards,

[Rebo Paing]

Well, it was certainly a hub of silat once ... I can't be sure but back in the Pagar Betis days of Presiden Sukarno it featured in Bandung ... also is the home of some well known perguruan, but it isn't the home of pencak silat by any means.

IMO the home of pencak silat is in the Joglosemar & Madiun areas :p

Salam.

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat,

Hmmmm... if we're being pedantic, since Pencak Silat is a relatively new term, we might ask where was the IPSI convention that decided on its use held? Maybe that place can be considered the home of Pencak Silat.

For Malaysia, where immigration and cross-pollination has made pinning an origin down to geography difficult, most closet-silat historians regard the pre-Melaka ancient Muslim Siamese-Kedah kingdom of Ayuthaya (controversial, I know, but that's what most of them agree on) as the originator and home of Silat (not Pencak, just to differentiate).

Yahoo... let the games begin! Who wants at me first?

Salam persilatan,

[Rebo Paing]

... the origin of silat was when a human first picked up a rock or a stick to defend themselves against some threat ... pencak happened when they re-told the story to the rest of their group ... geographically it could have happened anywhere ... but my opinion is based on how I see and define silat ... for me (personally) there are no geographical boundaries, just definitions based on language and for me the language just happens to be based on Jawanese.
I know that most people don't agree with this pov ... but that's kewl ... it's what makes the world go round :p.

Peace,
KP

[Gajah Silat]

Hi,

My wife is Indonesian. She was born in Bandung (Java), which her mother claims is home of Pencak Silat. I know Cimande is named after the town where it was formed, but I was wondering what the link was between PS and Bandung?

Thanks.

Kind regards,

Slightly off topic but......did we meet you in Manchester airport about 5 years ago or so? We were talking to another 'mixed' couple and the wife was from Bandung!

[Raden-Rahmat]

i think the people are because they carry the secrets of the knowledge but no the place...its just geographical...ive always judged it by the way the person does it...especially if hes a teacher...theres this way...this manner the malays have of shwoing their silat...the aesthetics is just different from anything else...
btw...my teachers Asal Silat has some of its heritage in Sumatra...but truly ive never heard the place of origin pop up yet...but i have heard that Nusantara is the area defined as its birthplace...btw..Nusantara is the broader picture before the colonialists went on dividing nations and ppl for their won stupid reasons...maybe Nadzrin will elaborate on my somethingness

[Rebo Paing]

Den Rahmat, I agree. Place is not important :).

Define silat to your own satisfaction, and you will all find the birthplace according to your answers :D.

[Narrue]

The word Silat is not that old but martial arts were around before the birth of the word Silat. If I remember correctly Silat derives from the word Silek and the word Silek derives from a word that describes lightning, sorry cant remember the word off hand but perhaps someone in this forum knows it. Silek is attributed to Dt Suri Dirajo who invented Silek a long long long time ago:)

You can read the history: http://www.geocities.com/silektuo/hal2.htm


EDIT: Maybe my ordering is wrong could be Silek > Kilat > Silat ????

[Kertas]

Good day all, salam and Hormat.. I too agree that the place of origin is not that important now. Its too long time ago and everyone you ask will say a different version of silats origin. Everyone wants to be original these days. Just a note on Narues point. Has anyone heard of the arabic word silat/silatun/silah? It means a connection.

[Gajah Silat]

Selamat sore Kertas,

I'm certain that silat pre-dated the Arab traders to the archipelago. I would also be surprised if the etymology of the word 'silat' is Arabic as there are terms such as silek, si kilat etc. that are indigenous.

Now I don't want to upset anyone here, but this is something I've noticed again and again. Does anyone think there is some kind of cultural self depreciation among the orang Melayu?

Certainly with regard to silat, it seems as if everyone wants to attribute the origins elsewhere, India, China, Arab traders, Sufi saints and so on. OK trade at a cultural crossroads will indeed lead to diffusionalism but c'mon, every human society in antiquity developed fighting systems usualy out of necessity. All were humans and unless unlucky had a torso, four limbs and a head that contained a brain.:bang:

Anyone think that, just maybe, the peoples of the archipelago might just have figured out how to fight by themselves?

[Kertas]

I most certainly agree Gajah. I think the malay people had brains of their own to develop their unique way of fighting etc. I just asked a question about the arabic word since the malayu language has incorporated many arabic words. Besides, the word does sound similar anyway.

[Rebo Paing]

Anyone think that, just maybe, the peoples of the archipelago might just have figured out how to fight by themselves?

I agree with Pakde.
I feel the use of the term silat has been happening in my family long before IPSI and PERSILAT were even a gleam in anyone's eye I think. Although the emphasis seemed to be on pencak, unlike common definitions that seem to be around these days, pencak did not have the seni connotations when used by my Eyangs .. pencak was fighting, but the word silat was re-inforcement.
To me pencak means the exact same as silat.

Salams,
KP

[Narrue]

100% Silat is of SE Asian origin, at later dates philosophic content was added from other origins but the martial arts of Silat is from Indonesia. There are people who in modern times are trying to twist its origin, I once had the pleasure of listening to a man lecture me on how Silat was derived from the movements of Muslims washing themselves in a mosque before prayer:rolleyes:

[Van Zandt]

WOW! Thanks for the great informative replies everyone. Certainly gives me so info to go back to the mother-in-law (she isn't all THAT much of a dragon :) ). I'll dig around a bit more and find out more about her lineage (her family are native Bandung-ers, and have an extensive lineage in that art).

Unfortunately I don't think it was me you met in Manchester airport, I've only been married to my wife for 2 years!

Thanks again everyone :D

[Kertas]

WOW! Thanks for the great informative replies everyone. Certainly gives me so info to go back to the mother-in-law (she isn't all THAT much of a dragon :) ). I'll dig around a bit more and find out more about her lineage (her family are native Bandung-ers, and have an extensive lineage in that art).

Thanks again everyone :D

Careful there Superfoot, you dont know yet what you might be dealing with. Mother in laws could turn into terrible Monster in laws, and may turn you into an Outlaw too :p

Just joking, keep up the research and train well brother

[Gajah Silat]

Unfortunately I don't think it was me you met in Manchester airport, I've only been married to my wife for 2 years!

There must be another 'Bandung' couple in Lancashire then!

Ever been tempted to train with the relatives in Indo? Mind you it took a few years before I was trusted with such things....and then it was all very clandestine:)

[Jebat]

i think the people are because they carry the secrets of the knowledge but no the place...its just geographical...ive always judged it by the way the person does it...especially if hes a teacher...theres this way...this manner the malays have of shwoing their silat...the aesthetics is just different from anything else...
btw...my teachers Asal Silat has some of its heritage in Sumatra...but truly ive never heard the place of origin pop up yet...but i have heard that Nusantara is the area defined as its birthplace...btw..Nusantara is the broader picture before
the colonialists went on dividing nations and ppl for their won stupid reasons...maybe Nadzrin will elaborate on my somethingness


And you think people weren't devided already? So before the European colonialists came there was peace and everybody was together?
So no Kings and Sultans where fighting wars and colonializing each other, enslaving each other? No tribes where killing each other and cutting each other's heads off for over land and property? Every religion change was done in peace? lol......
Another thing to think about: on how many occassions do you think Europeans have been colonized and devided by other people or countries. The list is endless.
Ah, and (especially in Asia) every dictatorial ruler always becomes a national hero and 'great leader' after he is long gone, forgetting the horrible things he did. Just a matter of time......
Devided..... That is funny.........

[Rebo Paing]

Rahayu DiMas Mohd Nadzrin Wahab,
I'm curious about this Silat Tua on Silat Melayu:The Blog (http://silat-melayu.blogspot.com/), which also talks about Senjata Bangsa Jawi. Are you aware that Jawi is kromo inggil for Jawa ... Nigel writes that it originates from Pattani in Thailand, but I wonder does Silat Tua originate from Jawa? If not, why else would Silat Tua be using senjata bongso Jawi? (FYI, from an ethnic perspective the Sundanese are not considered as Jawanese).
I understand that after the Diponegoro War was lost (1825 - 1830), some of R. Diponegoro's followers fled to Malaysia, while others re-established in remote areas (for those days) in Jawa (my ancestors included) and in Sulawesi.
I have also found an interesting and very insightful article (http://www.living-tradition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27) about Silat Tua (not to be confused with Silek Tuo which is Minang) on Nigel Sutton's site. Actually the article describes in a nutshell what silat is and what it is not.

:topic: There is a growing nucleus of astute and extremely well informed article writers on the Internet who perform a great service for Silat. Along with Babak O'ong Maryono, both yourself and Nigel Sutton fall into this category, if I may say so.

Wassalam,
Krisno

[Rebo Paing]

And you think people weren't devided already? So before the European colonialists came there was peace and everybody was together?
<snip>
Devided..... That is funny.........

:topic:Yes, what you say has some truth, but cultural groups have existed relatively unchanged for hundreds of years in the region and one must consider that cultural groups have the human rights to find there own way through the turmoil of life. My own family have an unbroken line of inhabiting our place for over 200 years to the present day and beyond that we have a feudal history encompassing and originating from different kingdoms in Central & East Jawa.
With a penjajah (a coloniser) originating far removed from the common cultural mix of Nusantara archipelago, the privilige to attain advancement for our culture and people was totally denied, remembering that the European too has a common cultural mix, which identifies as European.

Therefore from the perspective of cultural rights as well as the removing of material wealth from the archipelago, Den Rahmat (who's forebears were exiled) is totally correct.

Salam,
KP

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat all,

Narrue
"If I remember correctly Silat derives from the word Silek and the word Silek derives from a word that describes lightning, sorry cant remember the word off hand but perhaps someone in this forum knows it. Silek is attributed to Dt Suri Dirajo who invented Silek a long long long time ago"

The traditionally popular origins for the word is Ilat or Elat (evasion by trickery), Si Kilat (the one who is lightning fast) which later became Silat, Solat (Muslim prayer) and Silsilah (spiritual lineage to Rasulullah [Peace Be Upon Him]).

Linguistics is not my field, but it seems to me that Silek is just the Minang pronunciation for Silat. It would make for an interesting discussion. Any ideas?

To answer Kertas's question, yes, there is a theory among northern Malaysian style silat that silat comes from the word Silsilah. According to Ustaz Ahmad Che Din of Silat Abjad, it is claimed that when Islam came to Fatani, the Sheikhs saw the locals practising a martial art called Gawang (a.k.a Gayung, Gayang, Gayuang in other regions of Nusantara).

This included unIslamic spiritual practises. Once they reverted to Islam and returned to the silsilah (lineage) of Rasulullah PBUH, the art was renamed to Silat, in commemoration of the change.

Gajah Silat
Now I don't want to upset anyone here, but this is something I've noticed again and again. Does anyone think there is some kind of cultural self depreciation among the orang Melayu?

Silat as a mature concept originated from Nusantara. This is undeniable, but much of the peoples who interacted culturally with other people were traders and politicians. Only those styles that were purposefully protected or shielded from the outside world had no opportunity to absorb other influences.

The vocal styles that you see on the internet, in books and the side of the street are these acculturated styles, while the ones you don't see, you don't hear of and one in particular, runs a small school from his home and has resisted my best efforts to interview him for the last two years.

Narrue
"There are people who in modern times are trying to twist its origin, I once had the pleasure of listening to a man lecture me on how Silat was derived from the movements of Muslims washing themselves in a mosque before prayer"

It bears some looking into. In my experience, many of these stories have no real basis, other than a desire to have an Islamic origin. But some have very compelling evidence.

One, in particular is Silat Kalimah, which is based off Salat, the Muslim prayer and a Wushu style in Henan, China called Tan Ping Kong (Kettle Style) which is based off the Wudhu (ritual ablution before prayer). The kettle was used to pour water on the Muslim's limbs for ablution.

Walang Kadung
"I'm curious about this Silat Tua on Silat Melayu:The Blog, which also talks about Senjata Bangsa Jawi. Are you aware that Jawi is kromo inggil for Jawa"

Senjata Bangsa Jawi is the title for the next book in the Silat Tua series and is probably a newly coined term, not an old one. The following excerpt from Hamdan Abdul Rahman’s book “Panduan Menulis dan Mengeja Jawi” (publisher – Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka 1999) is a possible origin for the word Jawi:

"It has been deemed by Allah that the largest ethnic group inhabiting the land known as Melayu be the Javanese. It is these same Javanese that in times gone by formed the largest Malay group in the Arab lands. The result is that Arabs will call all those of tanned skin from the Malay world ‘Javanese’.

Moreover, all that is associated with those from Malay is regarded as ‘Jawi’. The people are known as ‘Jawi’, the land is known as the land of ‘Jawi’ and their language is named ‘Jawi’ – and the writing system that is used in literature is the ‘Jawi’ script. Islamic works that are translated into the Malay language, especially since the 17th century, have recorded that the author had received a decree from the king, scholars or elders, that the writings be translated into Jawi; not Bahasa Melayu. From such instructions, ‘Jawi’ started to be used as the name of the entire land that is ‘Malay’, then the name of the language, and now also the name of the writing”

Thus, the Melayu in Malaysia accept that identification, that they are what the Arabs named Banu Jawi. I don't know if Guru Zainal and Nigel chose that word out of custom or they really did mean to refer to Jawa.

However, the nominally accepted explanation for the origins of Silat in Siam-Fatani (as expounded upon by Pendeta Anwar Wahab of Seni Gayung Fatani Malaysia) is that it was transplanted by Kuching Siam to Sumatera where it was developed by Datuk Suri Diraja and brought back to Fatani soon after to continue development. The cross-pollination between Kedah, Acheh and the rest of Sumatera gave these Silat variants a similar look with similar terminology and pedagogy, which indirectly answers your next concern: "I have also found an interesting and very insightful article about Silat Tua (not to be confused with Silek Tuo which is Minang) on Nigel Sutton's site."

I wonder if this is the same as what this website is saying (as posted by Narrue):
"Of the science of gayuang belonged to Dt. Suri Dirajo and its combination with the three sort of Silek above, was created a type of Silek varied from self-defence from Tanah Basa (the Basic Land) [better translated as Mainland-Nadzrin]. Caught this sort of Silek was so called Silek Langkah Tigo (three steps Silek) or Silek Usali than was named Silek Tuo, basically the main source was Gayuang or most well known with the target "Sajangka Duo Jari"

I appreciate your comments. Cikgu Nigel is one of my foremost mentors and friends. I admit that Guru Zainal and Cikgu Nigel did an admirable job of putting the Silat Tua: The Malay Dance of Life book together and it was a learning experience to be involved in the book, however small. I shall pass on your compliments to him, if he hasn't already read them here.

Thank you for your knowledge Pak Krisno. I pray that this relationship continues further, far away from the sneers, jeers and misconceptions of those uninformed. May Allah protect us from such qualities.

Salam persilatan daripada adikmu di Malaysia,

[Raden-Rahmat]

salam and hormat

to Jebat
''And you think people weren't devided already?''
i didnt suggest that...the division i referred is based upon my history and the people of south africa, specifically the malays. we were displaced only because of colonisation. division exists in any community'/nation, no doubt but it rarely (could be mistaken) results in displacement and total deprivation from the motherland and even resources being oppressively taken away when the division is of a local origin.

''So before the European colonialists came there was peace and everybody was together?''
answer that yourself because im not here to act as an historian

''So no Kings and Sultans where fighting wars and colonializing each other, enslaving each other? No tribes where killing each other and cutting each other's heads off for over land and property? Every religion change was done in peace? lol......''
answer would be relatively the same as first answer

''Another thing to think about: on how many occassions do you think Europeans have been colonized and devided by other people or countries.''
this wouldnt relate to us but anyway ill attempt a logical approach which might not be the best method. here i go. europeans in my opinion., according to the history in secondary school (almost 10 years back), have been fighting for power on a scale higher than what was seen in Nusantara... when their quests ran dry, because every nation in europe now began getting tougher and tougher, their vision turned to asia to fight for the spice trade mafia tag. Maluku Islands suffered directly from this...we know this...we have links in south africa to Maluku islands. In no way do i dismiss the power raids of the mogol empire and those that followed and those in China. its been around all along in every corner of the world. but since our discussion revolved around nusantara, i made the comment in connection with the now-fragmented nusantara which was 1 in the period when Silat was discovered by the colonialists. and it isnt funny at all...not if you have been displaced and had to rediscover who you are today...

to end it all, Nusantara is the melting pot of Silat styles and i cant see the idea behind finding a geographic spot of origin...

to add to Mas Nazdrin...Silat also refers to connection if we considered the closest arabic term since we looking at the time when names changed. it could be plain physical or spiritual depending on history or even the teachings from the school. it mainly would be spiritual because of its arabic influence. Silat took on a moral reformation process when Islam and Sufism touched it since the meaning behind it was thought have the pesilat being representative of Gods divine will on earth...so Silat was a pesilats connection to the Divine Will. but everyone has their interpretations.

good to know about various meanings cos it all has cultural origins...thats what life is about hey...learning

[Van Zandt]

I've asked about training with relatives in Indonesia, but apparently they won't teach outsiders, even those within the family. My wife is even barred from practising with her family members because she married a bule.

Apparently they're very strict about tradition and rules because my wife's family has direct links to Pakubuwono X, who was a "King" so-to-speak in Surakarta. I've not seen any evidence of this but my wife's relatives in Indo are extremely wealthy and would be considered "stuck up" here in the West.

[Raden-Rahmat]

so really hey...thing of royalty is long overdue...tho they must be respected...i dont acknowledge any highness as the english like calling their queen. id say youve made your bed now must sleep in it as my ppl say. really you have more choices than just learning her Silat whether its regarded as whatever...im not being nasty to tradition, im basically saying that if you cant get it right, theres more than just that...Silat is braod...im sorry if i was harsh to any of the tradition held in certain groups...but these days we must be open...to allow change and fusion...

[Gajah Silat]

I've asked about training with relatives in Indonesia, but apparently they won't teach outsiders, even those within the family. My wife is even barred from practising with her family members because she married a bule.

Apparently they're very strict about tradition and rules because my wife's family has direct links to Pakubuwono X, who was a "King" so-to-speak in Surakarta. I've not seen any evidence of this but my wife's relatives in Indo are extremely wealthy and would be considered "stuck up" here in the West.

LOL I see:rolleyes: I must have got lucky with my inlaws then, they all seem quite fond of me....my mother in law especially:)

I suppose it's a little different in the kampung....fathers, sons, uncles all sneak off to the clearing by the river at night for latihan. Still secret, but not at all stuck up. Anyway, the uncles want to ensure it can be passed on to their nephew.

This little fellow:)

[Rebo Paing]

This little fellow:)

Rahayu Pakde,
Wah! Putrane Pakde Martin gagah luar biasa ... welcome to the World Association of Inter-cultural Families (W.A.I.F) :D.
FYI we have English, Scottish, Danish, Chinese, Cherokee Indian, Mandinggo African and Arab in the extended family ... not including Melayu which is already a melting pot of races. Our family base is the true U.N.

Super Foot ... it depends on your patience and how they perceive your attitude to be ... you will definitely need to become very Jawanese :D.
However, there is no need to wait if you feel independent about it. Find a perguruan that accepts foreigners ... and don't forget that there are Chinese perguruan that are legitimate as well. The Chinese are woven into Indonesian traditional fabric ... you will still be learning silat ... ignore the "political snobbery" that you might encounter, the two cultures have been interwoven for as long as time even though that subject is taboo :rolleyes:.
FWIW, here's another taboo assertion (well, often it is anyway) ... my father taught me that ima and cma have common roots.

Salams and cheers,
Krisno

[Rebo Paing]

... dash it all ... find any ma that vibrates with your psyche and suck the guts out of it ... how it shapes you and how you express yourself in every aspect of your living through that conduit is your silat. That is what silat is. That is following the spirit of the meaning of traditional silat. Other than that silat is just a word in a Jawanese lexicon ... it's the spirit of the idea that is important ... not that you learn jurus prawan (or joko) ngilo or what have you. That sounds esoteric, but what is it really? It is an expression of tangkis jotos= ngendo antem= elak tinju= dodge and strike= forward block and strike= cannon fist= pao-quan= fan through back ... etc.

Salam sejahtera!
Krisno

The Edit : I apologise for saying Jawanese lexicon! I mean Melayu lexicon.

[Pekir]

salam and hormat

......... but since our discussion revolved around nusantara, i made the comment in connection with the now-fragmented nusantara which was 1 in the period when Silat was discovered by the colonialists. and it isnt funny at ..........

Hormat Raden Rahmat,

I'm not in the position to discuss your feelings and opinions on the forceful displacement of your ancestors from the nusantara. I myself can be considered a product of coloniasation but the circumstances are quite different.

But if I understand you right your assumption that the "nusantara which was 1 in the period when silat was discovered by the colonialist" is somewhat incorrect from a historical perspective. The nusantara was a blanket of smaller and bigger kingdoms/sultanates and the etnic and cultural differences have always been present. The Madurese, Mollucans, Javanese, Sundanese, Aceh, Bugis, Menadonese etcetera etcetra all had their own 'way of living'. Some of the kingdoms/sultanates used the colonisers for their regional differences and the colonisers did it other way around. Some of the present tensions are to a certain extend (Aceh, Mollucas e.g) testimony of ancient 'differences'

I'm afraid colonisation was the forefather of what we now know as globalisation... This doesn't mean I approve of colonisation!! (though I have to admit I wouldn't have been around if it didn't happen ;-) )

To get back to the silat issue. What do you mean with "when Silat was discovered by the colonialists"

Salaam,
Patrick

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat,

"welcome to the World Association of Inter-cultural Families (W.A.I.F) :D.
FYI we have English, Scottish, Danish, Chinese, Cherokee Indian, Mandinggo African and Arab in the extended family ... not including Melayu which is already a melting pot of races. Our family base is the true U.N."

Hey! I want a membership card too! My mother's family is Yemeni-Achehnese-Ceylonese-Melayu-Portuguese and my father's family is Indian-Persian-Melayu. My wife is Minang-Melayu with a possible Bugis and Chinese thrown in somewhere along the line and my daughter is confused. So, do I qualify?

FWIW, here's another taboo assertion (well, often it is anyway) ... my father taught me that ima and cma have common roots.

Let's put it out in the open. My Sendeng master, guru Jamaludin Shahadan claims that Daruma (Dharuma/ Bodhidharma) was from Palembang and made his way up to India and then China. So, in essence, what he taught was a primordial Nusantaran martial art that developed in three different areas in different ways.

How's that for controversy? Will it be fun now? Sigh.

Salam persilatan,

[Jebat]

Let's put it out in the open. My Sendeng master, guru Jamaludin Shahadan claims that Daruma (Dharuma/ Bodhidharma) was from Palembang and made his way up to India and then China. So, in essence, what he taught was a primordial Nusantaran martial art that developed in three different areas in different ways.

How's that for controversy? Will it be fun now? Sigh.

Salam persilatan,

I like your mix Saiful, mine is just as complicated.
And so is the one of most people, but most of them fool themselves
they are of some purity of some kind which doesn't exist.

Your Sendeng master: Is he the same Malay guy who spreaded the
the silly story about Bruce Lee being killed by a Malay fighter?
Another story in which the supremasy of the Malays is claimed....
So now Bodhidharma was actually Malay? What a joke..

I'm getting so tired of this stuff...
Lying is apparently an acceptable thing in Malaysia...
Never mind...

[Raden-Rahmat]

Pekir...sorry im really not with it...im so busy at work ive lost the mindset i was in when writing that...maybe you should just write it off lol

jebat...
somethings seems true while not and vice-versa...the media is a good example of the greater lies of everyday...the war on iraq is just 1 issue that springs to mind...
Silat however is not immune to any deficiencies but if your teacher is reliable, then trust him...especially if he has not shown any lack of trustworthiness. so leave him to his claims...if a malay man or silat man gave bruce some ilmu batin strike...then im sure ill just say ok....i never saw it...so i dont really care...

you should look at the way you say things...Silat has Seni all the way...if it doesnt affect you, it is time you check on it...human interaction is a crucial thing in this world...so all you got to do is be nicer in your approach. i ust find arrogance on your side...forgive me if im wrong..n dont get me wrong...im so saint...but im definitely not arrogant and thought-less :topic:

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat Jebat,

Hmmm... you have issues, me see...

First off, guru Jamaludin was referring to an older document that he showed me, a book on Malayan history published by the Methodist Publishing House (now MPH) in 1920 which mentioned that Ch'an Buddhism was sourced originally in Nusantara, greatly influenced by the high culture spiritualism that existed here long before Islam came to our shores.

I'd need to look at it again, but I do remember the book referencing this key figure as a man named Daruma, who was a monk who went to India to study Buddhism and later founded Ch'an Buddhism as a unique mix of spiritual traditions.

The book never mentioned anything about him bringing along Nusantara martial arts, but guru Jamaludin only referenced the general opinion of the older masters in his area and those he spoke to who believed it.

Secondly, there's only one account of a Melayu master ever even meeting the late Bruce Lee, and the only person to ever publicly make that statement, I believe, was Dicky Zulkarnain at the 1987 World Silat Championships. I quote from an earlier post http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=970881&postcount=36:

The story of Datuk Meor and Bruce Lee’s meeting has been circulating among Gayong members since the meeting ‘happened’. Unfortunately, in all accounts, I have never been able to meet a first hand eyewitness. When Datuk Ahmad Lazim was alive, he admitted that he was himself unsure of whether the meeting took place, due to confusion.

However, this topic was hotly debated leading to a comparative article in SENI BELADIRI in its earlier issues. Indonesians have a different version of the Bruce Lee death theory which involves Dicky Zulkarnain.

However, in a widely documented account, (anyone have the Malay Mail issue which refers to this?) during the 1987 Silat World Championships in Malaysia, Dicky declared to the audience to debunk the myth that he ever met Bruce Lee, but added that only ‘one person has ever fought him, and he is sitting right here in this hall’. Without naming the person, Dicky pointed in Datuk Meor’s direction. Talk about adding speculation to mystery. We may never know who he was talking about.


Since I wrote that, I HAVE met an eyewitness who was present (I shall not name him), but he claims that nothing happened in that meeting. Bruce heard that Datuk Meor was on a stopover in Hong Kong and met him in the lounge to discuss martial arts.

He apparently offered Datuk Meor to star in Game of Death, but was turned down when he was required to act a defeat to Bruce in the movie.

So, as far as I know, it's been an interesting urban legend among Gayong pesilat ever since, and guru Jamaludin has never mentioned it to me in all the time I've known him, nor indicated that he knew anything about it. Most Malaysian pesilat don't even know this story and were quite surprised when it was published as an analytical piece in SENI BELADIRI magazine in the late 1990s.

Though in defence of Malaysian pesilat, there are claims from all over the world where Bruce's life was supposedly done in. From the US Government, to jealous and angry Chinese kung fu masters, Shaolin monks and triads, to Datuk Meor Rahman, Dicky Zulkarnain and Trovador Ramos, all have their own claims to having defeated (or even killed) the great man. Malaysians aren't unique in that.

As for me, the more claims that exist, the more it proves just how much this man has impacted our lives. I have interviewed Melayu silat masters who cite Bruce Lee as an inspiration to study their own culture's martial arts.

I regret though that some people spread such stories (even if there is a speck of truth in it) to inflate their sense of importance.

To Bruce Lee's family, friends and students, I don't know if you deign to read this, but I apologise if any of these urban myths gone wilde have hurt anyone amongst you. BLACK BELT once called Bruce a prophet of the martial arts in the West. If that wasn't blasphemous to me as a Muslim, I would be inclined to agree.

Salam persilatan,

[Jebat]

Pekir...sorry im really not with it...im so busy at work ive lost the mindset i was in when writing that...maybe you should just write it off lol

jebat...
somethings seems true while not and vice-versa...the media is a good example of the greater lies of everyday...the war on iraq is just 1 issue that springs to mind...
Silat however is not immune to any deficiencies but if your teacher is reliable, then trust him...especially if he has not shown any lack of trustworthiness. so leave him to his claims...if a malay man or silat man gave bruce some ilmu batin strike...then im sure ill just say ok....i never saw it...so i dont really care...

you should look at the way you say things...Silat has Seni all the way...if it doesnt affect you, it is time you check on it...human interaction is a crucial thing in this world...so all you got to do is be nicer in your approach. i ust find arrogance on your side...forgive me if im wrong..n dont get me wrong...im so saint...but im definitely not arrogant and thought-less :topic:


I don't like people who lie.
And I don't like people who lie just to glorify their own kind and put down others'.
A malay man or silat man gave bruce some ilmu batin strike?
That is a lie fabricated to make it look like Malay Silat is the best in the world.
Stop repeating other people's lies........
Stop lying. Lying is wrong and hurtfull.....
And why lie in the first place? Is it out of a lack of self confidence?
There is a lot to be proud of, no need for lies.

I'm not arrogant at all. I'm just one of the few people in Malaysia who are
fighting for equality, against racism, against seperatism, against the spreading of lies that are meant to glorify one group and put down the others.

But there will be judgement day for everybody, if you believe in those things....

[Jebat]

My guru just told me that he is the reincarnation of Bruce Lee and that he was killed by a martial arts master Hokiwob of the alien race of the Gorks. The Gorks landed on earth and left grandmaster Bodigork (Bodiharma) on earth to educate the inferior humans. Bodigork travelled all over the world and is the foundation of all martial arts. Therefore the Silat I learn from my guru is the best in the universe and everybody else is inferior. Also the Gork race is the superior race of the universe and everybody else is inferior.
Your Silat is just a watered down Silat from Bodigork.
By the way, and we have the keris of Hang Tuah AND the underpants and fighting socks of Bruce Lee.
You all just go and cry and wish you were us. And if you think of joining us, then forget it because you and your race are not worthy....

It's all true because my guru told me so.....
I don't think for myself cos my guru does all my thinking, I just agree with everything he says. After all, he is the reincarnation of Bruce....

[Kertas]

I fought bruce lee, in my dream... Hey Jebat, are you lying? Or is being sarcastic as bad as lying? Hmmm..

[Raden-Rahmat]

im not from malaysia and i dont defend tales. i support your thought. maafkan if i thought of u as arrogant but its what i saw...and in the virtual thing its hard to differentiate. but thousands apologies bro.
i know what you saying and i always think of it as "remeh". even the statement Hang Tuah used "takkan melayu..blah blah"...was voiced during resistance but it now is used by ppl with political idealogies and the feeling of superiority.....why do the malays of malaysia feel this way??? i know they have this status thing especially when history actually comes from indon. malaysia is a more recent development due to the balfour declaration...but hey...do you stink like hang tuah's underpants too???or his ketiak???

[Raden-Rahmat]

hey...ur son really looks the part...lets hope he carries the ettiquette and not only the physical aspects...may the art be him....lol

To Gajah

[Jebat]

im not from malaysia and i dont defend tales. i support your thought. maafkan if i thought of u as arrogant but its what i saw...and in the virtual thing its hard to differentiate. but thousands apologies bro.
i know what you saying and i always think of it as "remeh". even the statement Hang Tuah used "takkan melayu..blah blah"...was voiced during resistance but it now is used by ppl with political idealogies and the feeling of superiority.....why do the malays of malaysia feel this way??? i know they have this status thing especially when history actually comes from indon. malaysia is a more recent development due to the balfour declaration...but hey...do you stink like hang tuah's underpants too???or his ketiak???

lol.....
No we haven't found Tuah's undergarment yet.
By the way, Hang Tuah was a Chinese imperial guard, body-guarding a Chinese princess in Melaka.
Something else, did you know there is a holy giant teapot in Malaysia?
No joke.....
Well, holy it is not of course, but there are some people who think it is...

[Kertas]

hey.. why is the teapot regarded holy?

[Raden-Rahmat]

since you put it that way...jebat id say we keep this thread for discussing any unsuals and tales within silat...maybe we can de-myth things a bit

but keep the tea holy...theres a secret in it...