Ninjitsu

[Sean O]

Me again (although I bet noone remembers me:)). I was at a book store and I noticed a book about ninjitsu called "The Secrets of Ninjitsu". I after I skimmed through the chapters I decided to buy it. After reading this book, it occured to me that aside from all the stealth techniques and the like, ninjitsu seemed like an extremely effective self-defense art (the book went into alot of detail, so I feel that I can safely say that). The only thing is, I've heard that theres alot of bad hype out there about ninjitsu, and I wanted to know why? If its used in self-defense, it's the assailin who should get the bad hype, not ninjitsu...

Any thoughts on this?

Sean O

[waya]

There is a bad rep given to the Ninpo arts. Mostly that comes from the "ninja" craze of the early 80's. As a fighting art it really is quite effective in my opinion. Alot of people tend to associate it with the men in black masks running around disappearing in smoke though, which is all Hollywood crap to make movies sell better.

Rob

[YODA]

I've dabbled so my opinion is not based on much other than that - but here it is anyway.

Ninjutsu, like of lot of arts, has some great techniques - but it's not techniques that are going to dictate how effective your art is in reality- it's training method. The training method I saw was typical of many arts I've witnessed - the practice of "deadly" techniques on a fully compliant robotic training partner - and a total lack of knowledge or emphasis on modern coaching and athletic conditioning.

If you already have a functional delivery system as a base for your martial art i.e something you can and do apply against a fully resisting opponent then the "techniques" of the Ninjutsu I've seen can be made to work.

When I say "fully resisting opponent" I don't mean the guy that goes all stiff and tries to "resist" when you try to apply a wrist lock - I mean a training partner who is doing his utmost to fight back with anything he/she can - even if that means knocking you out.

OK - rant of the day over now :D

[LilBunnyRabbit]

I still don't quite understand why you should bother learning to defend yourself if you're going to get injured as badly, if not worse, in class than you would on the street.

[Freeform]

Sure you'll pick up 'some' injuries in the process of training, but I see it as a necessary evil, otherwise the majority of people are going to crack under pressure.

I still think you've got the wrong idea Jimmy, its not like we're always bust up and will end up as cripples, checks should be in place to prevent this (checked up my brief pressure testing post in Tai Jitsu?).

And in a rather sick way (and I think Yoda and Andy would agree), injuries and how you handle them are kind of character building. Also, if you get a good crack in the street you won't be wholly unprepared.

Thanx

[YODA]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
I still don't quite understand why you should bother learning to defend yourself if you're going to get injured as badly, if not worse, in class than you would on the street.

Sorry - I don't understand. If you train correctly and with progressive resistance then you are not that likely to get hurt. It's all about progression, good coaching, adequate training equipment & a mature non-egotistical approach.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

But surely training safely (as we do) can never be training against a fully resisting opponent. If you want to train realism completely, then you will get hurt, one of you at least will get hurt badly. Otherwise you're not being completely realistic. We train as realistically as possible while avoiding injuries.

[YODA]

I think I'm flogging a dead horse here.

[Melanie]

:) Lets agree to disagree eh?

Personally I think you're both saying the same thing just wording it different? (Melanie in diplomatic mode :) )

[YODA]

Lets agree to disagree eh?

Yep - sometimes it's the only way :D

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by YODA


Yep - sometimes it's the only way :D

Nope- I disagree...:D

[YODA]

That's OK Andy - 'cos I agree to disagree :D

[khafra]

What if he disagrees with your disagreement, and decides to agree with you? Then you'd have to redo your agreement, except agreeing to agree instead of agreeing to disagree.

[Melanie]

*sigh*

[waya]

I don't think the object is to get hurt, injuries can happen anywhere of course, but you have to have realism in training to prepare for a real encounter. Without it there is no way to know if you can handle stress factors and fear factors and still perform.

Rob

[morphus]

I had trouble with this in the past in my classes, we were taught to apply techniques for quick release, (close range) doing them slowly at first, to get the hang of them - which is fair enough - as we "progressed" it got a bit faster until we were pretty fluid(still at a lower rank at this time); then one lesson my partner decided to get hold of me (bear hug from behind) and not let go, i did as i had been told to get get the release but he wouldnt release the hold, we began to thrash around the dojang and after struggling for some time i managed to break free.
We both immediately began to have doughts about what we were being taught - my training partner left the art, i stayed. I annalised this for quite a while after, but it was only with experience i found 'my' answer.
I could not apply distraction(which then helps engage release techs') techs' i was shown such as rear headbutt - grabbing groin - shin scrape - instep stomp - eye rack- etc etc, for fear of really damaging my partner - broken foot - broken nose - etc etc
But i did learn to train in as realistic manner as possible using different partners who were willing to go at different pace, co-operating the amount of violence(i've never really headbutted anyone yet though i have bitten in class).
It's about finding a training partner who wants to train the same or similar way to you and you have to co-operate like when you feel a bite you have admit you've been bitten and perhaps release the grip or hold a bit and so on. Its the same with combination punching/striking - if you strike low the body moves and then you have to follow up with an appropriate punch allowing for body movement - the human body reacts to violent blows or bites/pinches, you must emulate this in your training for realism.
So co-operate to a certain extent with your partner and use as much force/resistance as you can both stand keeping it as real as possible.

A bit long winded but thats what i think -more or less;)

[Darzeka]

Are you only learning the art to hurt people?

Shouldn't you also learn how to defend yourself?

If your opponent in a real fight manages to fake you out and get through your guard will you just give up and say oh **** I'm gonna get hurt? Would you let them throw you and not try to break fall and save yourself and injury?

You train realistically. So they punch you, throw you whatever have you not learnt how to minimize the damage done? You should also not be hitting each other very much anyway if you all learn what is being taught.

The worst injuries I have come away form training with are general aches from so much pyhysical exertion my brother is the same and we train full on all the time. We basically try to kill each other. We bounce when we throw each other, If we are trying to punch we aim to hit and if we hit we connect solidly because we know the other has learned the same stuff and it won't hurt much because we utilize our defensive techniques.

[morphus]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, but if you're in a real confrontation, for what ever reason - you are going to get hit(a punch in the eye hurts no matter what defence you know), you may block once, twice if you're very very lucky but you have to go on the offensive and use everything and anything to survive!
If you train full out with a partner(you say your brother)all the time ,then thats very nice - but what happens when you come across an opponant that is bigger, more powerful and wacked out on drugs,he's going to be twice (proberbly more) the trouble your usual partner is, but you've learnt only to fight your .....brother in this case and i guess the reason you don't get hurt is because you know what each other is going to do. This can be the same if you only spar or what ever with people in your own style(depending on how rigid that style is).;)

[Darzeka]

In order to hit me the person needs to get close enough for one of his limbs to be able to touch me and that will only happen happen if they catch me unawares or I want to hit him.

If I block something then more than likely I'll also have been wanting to block it in order to put on a lock, throw or whatever.

Tho whole emphasis of my art is to not get hit first, then block and counter.

You seem not to beleive that I train with my brother? I train with other people as well only there aren't any other people in my belt at the moment but I grade next week so I get to train with them. And most of us go just as hard

What I was getting at is that to train realistically you need to be trying to hit them realistically. Now your art may not do this but when we see an attack come in we get out of the way very quickly. So the person comes in with a realistic attack and I move out of the way, more often than I'll not need to block it as it has no chance of hitting me, the only reason for the block is to grab hold of the offending hand in order to do the throw.

True we do let go of the person after they tap in the lock and we put it on lightly when we a practising the specific techniques but when wrestling and what have you everything is meant to be real otherwise it is to easy to get out.

[pgm316]

Darzeka, it doesn’t sound to me like you train realistically. In a realistic fight people almost always get hurt. You say you go in to “kill” each other and you come away with only exhaustion, I’m sorry but I can’t see that happening. What are these attacks like?

If you go in with a good combination of kicks and punches one of you will be hit, you will not see them all coming or have chance to move out of the way. And if you wrestle in a real way you will get hurt, many locks will do some damage to joints!

I’m not saying your training is bad, but I agree with morphus in the ways of realistic training. That you can’t train in a fully realistic way, so you must respond in a way that appears to be realistic. Like pretending the byte had done some damage!

Its all about training hard and training wisely. Making it a real as possible without the real injury. I’ve had a lot of injuries when training, nothing too bad. Broken nose twice, two fingers a toe. Countless bust lips, cuts and bruises. I got a lot from the training then, although it was probably too realistic. It was pretty much full contact some nights and then you would get hurt. The training is still good now, maybe we don’t test ourselves to the same extent, but there’s very few injuries now!

[Freeform]

Darzeka, if you were training 'full out' trying to 'kill each other' you would be sustaining multiple injuries each week no matter how good you are. I believe you've been training for under a year now (?) and in Ninjukai Taijutsu, your constant references to gradings and training with higher grades also marks you as a novice. I've been studying Goshin Do Tai Jitsu for about 12yrs now and I'm a doorman for some of the time each year, so I know about 'realisim'.
I believe the type of training your doing is the same way we drill techniques at beginer level, once the mechanics have been learned against a compliant partner, you work up until the guys trying to take you head off and from then on, thats how you practice the technique. But this means you already know what attack is coming and are so prepared, at higher level it becomes increasingly harder to apply a tech. to an opponent of the same grade in free-practice, he's got doublebluffs, counters, resists and is trying to do the same to you. If at an early stage you train like this you won't learn anything.

Thanx

[morphus]

I want to touch on the point made by freeform about knowing whats coming, thats how we (martial artists) begin training slowly, then speeding it up still knowing whats coming, when you get to a certain stage in training you have to add the eliment of surprise; there are countless ways of doing this and the aim is to sharpen your reflexes, you already know the techniques, but even with an eliment of surprise in class you STILL KNOW it's coming!
So now - you're on the street or in the pub/club and you DON'T KNOW at all when it's going to happen or even if its going to happen and you don't know if you're even going to see it coming, but we've trained our reflexes to the best we can up to that time.
Only with a bit of luck along with our knowledge(awareness) will we see it coming - but nobody is all seeing!
The judas punch(the punch you don't see coming from the blind side) is probably the only realisticly dangerous punch anyone could throw in training and if we did throw it we'd all be at the casualty on training night.
So what we do is train as real as we can - safely with a reasonably co-operative partner, there is no other way really.

[Kat]

Rather then using the words, "defend yourself" why not consider "survival".
Sure just semantic but defend places you as a victim rather then taking control of the situation from the begining.Survival indicates you will do what is necessary to survive.

Injuries,well if you go into any situation I would expect injuries,certianly they are part of most comps,most sports and most lives.
Taking hit is part of fight training all the more reason to relax and go with the hit rather then resist or tense up with the strike.Personally I don't get the whole iron body deal,I would rather focus on avoiding the damageing strike rather then taking it and hoping it bounces off.By flowing with the strike you buffer the effects of the strike.General Conditioning well thats part fo my training and I place it in a different feild then the iron body that I have seen demostrated.
Sorry if I got alittle off thread

[morphus]

hmm.....ok i see what your getting at KAT, but pro boxers train in the 'get hit' 'roll with the punches' fashion but plenty of them still get carried out of the ring - also plenty of them despite training this way still have a 'glass' jaw.
So my guess its down to the individual on how you want to train but there must be choices hard training and the not so hard.

[Jim]

Are we still on track in this thread?

I thought it was discussing the effectivness of Ninjitsu (and shouldn't it then be in the 'Ninjitsu' section?

Just a thought.

[morphus]

ok- but the conversation is great!lets keep it going

[Kat]

Morphus
Sure Boxers get knocked out,my statment didn't refer to relaxing and being imunne to strikes just that you can reduce the sting of a strike by relaxing and moving with the impact in the direct that the impact is going,this can often create distance as well,if possible just remove the target in the first place.

I understand your problem with distractions not being effective in order to apply a grappling solution.I agree that in the training situation some understanding by your partner must replace certin softening strikes but other softening blows/break balances should be at least put in a 3/4 power particularly when going through in slow motion.It seems a very fine line to me.More reason why submission techniques rather then breaking tech are gaining in popularity,you can practise the submissions at full speed with some saftey involved.Some pure breaks and eye strikes/gouges can never receive this type of training.

[morphus]

I agree that you can learn to roll with the punches etc, but i don't think its absolutely necessary for combat - it helps though.
I actually meant you can use the distraction techniques in training, but only with a complient partner, hence co-operation with your partner/s; with a good training partner/s you can go almost up to full out training but it'll 'never' be full out.
As for the rise of grappling in popularity, this was because of the UFC and it made me study them and changed 'my' outlook on martial arts - grappling training is an essential part of training but its not the be all and end all of things, you have to be able to fight at all ranges and i'm not talking about kicking - punching and groundwork because i think that there are many many ranges, i'm still trying to learn how to fight in them and more crutially move from one to the other.
I was having conversation on another forum a little while back, they were mainly BJJ and they would talk about finishing the fight off with a nice clean armbar and stuff like that and i argued 'what about after the fight and you 've finished it off with your nice clean armbar, the other guy must have said ok i give up or you've broken his arm; when he gets up he's going to want to fight again, i'd rather put him down on the floor with a strike and leave him there out cold preferably(this depends on the situation obviously)if he's got his mates with him aswell its the only thing to do.
Anyway i try to train with everything, i concider everything - though i'm no expert and certainly no UFC champion(and never will be) but i'm trying to be the best i can.

[Sean O]

Hmm... its true that this discussion has gone off thread. Although it doesn't really matter, since waya answered my question (Which is why, Jim, this thread is in Q+A:)).

However, I have my own opinion on "proper training". Just like people naturally take to a certain art, people will also take to a style of training. There is no one right way to do it. All you really need to do is ask yourself what you think is the best way to learn something, and then learn it. If you're training with a partner, make sure he/she knows how you want to train. You shouldn't sustain any serious injuries unless you or your partner screws up, and minor injuries aren't anything to complain about (I define serious injuries as something that can prevent you from training for a while).

Just train safe and smart, and you should be fine.

[HKD]

i thought this was about ninjitsu!
HKD

[Sean O]

Conversations flow all over the place, eh?