Come Post Your TKD Questions Here!!!

[Chazz]

Hey, i just wanted to say that if anyone has a guestion on TKD i'de love to help in any way. If i cant help, i hope that another member can.

Take Care & Keep Posting!

[Freeform]

Could you help a poor bewildered cross-trainer understand the difference in style between ITF and WTF:)

[waya]

Freeform,
I'm not very familiar with the ITF, but I have trained in WTF TKD. WTF is more of a sport now than anything else, although alot of WTF style instructors do push self defense and do very well with it. The WTF also only has 8 color belt forms where the ITF has more (16 I think?? Chazz can answer that better lol). Sparring is stressed more than anything else in the majority of WTF schools I have been to, not quite sure how that is in ITF.

Rob

[Chazz]

ITF - Debated to be the First form of TKD started after the anchient Taekeon (2333 bc) (i believe this) From what i have seen ITF is more traditional TKD. We are more focused on our forms and one steps than anything. (9 color forms, 24 forms total)
Sparring is done differently in every school. Most do not use the chesk guard. All of our forms (the Chang Hun Series) came from General Choi. (Founder of TKD)

WTF - The Olympic TKD, From what I know work a little more on sparring and a little less on forms. WTF was started due to people not agreeing with General Chio on the ITF so head members started the WTF. The Changed the forms and so on to fit their needs/wants. Soon after in the 70's WTF was introduced into the Olympics and seemed to become more of a sport Tae Kwon Do. Since then and due to that, it seems like politics have started to enter the WTF.

MOST and i do say MOST and NOT ALL, ITF and WTF school cant stand each other. Some ITF dont ever consider WTF to be a Tae Kwon Do at all and some WTF dont ever let their eyes or ears fall upon the mention on ITF. To me, thats a load of CRAP. I might not agree with everything WTF does but i do like the people that come from it. We can learn from everone.

Hope this helped, if it didnt let us know
-Chazz

[waya]

Chazz I have seen that also.
My former TKD instructor would absolutely freak if an ITF practitioner walked in. Thankfully the instructor I have now would simply be interested in talking with them about the differences.... Once again the power of Politics lol.

Rob

[Freeform]

Being a cross-trainer I've experienced the whole 'Ah, you have finally seen that my style is superior' speech, I haven't got much time for ppl like that. Coming from a predominately Tai Jitsu/Karate background I find it interesting to note a lot of similarities between the katas/Tuls of TKD and Shotokan.

[Chazz]

Rob: I have seen that too. There are a lot of ITF Instructors who are the same was with WTF people. So it would make them mad to know that one of my best and closest friends study WTF TKD and when she comes into to town, we work out together and i welcome her as well as any other style into my class with open arms.

Freeform:
There is A LOT of similarities between TKD and Shotokan due to the face that TKD gets its hardness from Japan's Karate. (and we know the Shotokan is Karate) BUT. Shotokan uses more hand techniques than we do. If you watch a TKD match, its all kicks. Herdly any hands. It is often said that Every TKD black belt should begin shotokan and reaching black belt because of their similarities.

[waya]

Actually TKD's roots lie in the art that later became Shotokan. Gen Choi attained his 2nd dan while living in Japan and added the kicks from Tae Kyon to create TKD. Having studied Shotokan for most of my life I noticed that all the hand techniques and stances are virtually identical between the two arts (Shotokan stances are lower).

I got the "My style is superior" treatment when I first began TKD after training Shotokan.... The instructor insulted the fact that I had trained elsewhere and tried to forbid me from doing so again..... Needless to say I moved on.

Rob

[Chazz]

Rob,
I wouldnt blame you for moving on.

Thats what i was saying about how TKD got its hardness, it was from Japan Karate/Shotokan. So we are thinking on the same line of thought.

I dont believe that there is no better STYLE, but there are better martial artist . Some day i hope to be one.

-Chazz

[Andy Murray]

The various arts all have varying degrees of focus on different areas, and therefor some arts are better at different things. Tae Kwon Do has always been recognised by spectacular kicks.

What would you say is the reason? Do TKD classes spend most of he time on Stretching, or on Strength exercises?

[waya]

I know the first TKD school I was at gave awards for how well you could do splits and hold kicks in the air. But most of the time was still spent on sparring. I stretch more now in class training Hapkido than I did at the former school (mostly b/c I worked with other students alot and was short on time). Some TKD schools I have seen have an entire class dedicated to stretching, but that is just a few that have decided to do that. But there is alot of time spent in classes on kicks, basic and advanced. I do usually 100 roundhouse kicks a night and almost as many side and front kicks, then work on the advanced kicks such as tornado, tornado axe, 180 degree tornado kicks etc.

Rob

[Andy Murray]

Throwing all these kicks, did a lot of the students experience lower back, hip or knee pain?

[waya]

I have a really bad knee and I haven't had problems with it. I had some hip pain with some of the kicks until I got the dynamics of them right though

[Chazz]

*L* Growing up in a TKD class, i have always heard "Use you feet, TKD is 85% foot work. *LOL* We have had whole class doing nothing but kicks. The only pain found was either the kick was used on them *LOL* or if they didnt do it right. (Soon corrected)

-Chazz

[Andy Murray]

So would you say hand techniques are neglected in TKD?

I found sparring with a couple of TKD guys, that they stayed on one leg an awfully long time, and I was able to close to hand distance coming inside the kicking leg, and also to sweep the suppporting leg.

Not showing any disrespect to the art here, just interested to get your responses!

[waya]

I would say they are.... but I kick equally with both legs from front a rear LOL

[Chazz]

It depends on the school you go to. We do work more with the feet. (BOTH FEET) We do a lot of hand techniques as well. I just depends on the school you go to.

[waya]

I think it also depends on if you train WTF or ITF TKD.... WTF barely touches on the hands from what I have seen since a punch is nearly impossible to score with in a WTF match. Punches to the head are forbidden completely.

Rob

[Chazz]

Yeah that is too true. In IFT though, (well in our school) we do practice hits to the head. (back fist, ridge hands, knife hands, etc) as well as to get inside so we can use them.
Like we all have said in here. "every style/ school is different"
-Chazz

[waya]

That is why I personally consider ITF the more combative of the two. WTF teaches alot of head kicks but to me those are mostly impractical on the street. But as far as punching it's something they say not to do.... which in my mind is bad medicine if someone attacks you.

[Chazz]

If someone in coming after me and in my face attacks, im using fists and fingers to attack back. then as he is staggering aroung i might drop an ax kick to flatten him

-Chazz

[waya]

Most of my kicks would be to the lower body..... knees, abdomen, etc. But if there is a sure opening I will go for a head shot. Personally I fight in very close range and use short hand strikes and elbows alot (seems like insanity since I am only 5'8 and 165) so I don't have the room for movement required for long range kicks.

[Freeform]

Question: I've arranged for the martial arts clubs at my university to run a joint training seminar, what would be the proper greating for the TKD practioners?

Cheers

[Chazz]

What do you mean by Greeting?

[Freeform]

Oops, just notice I can't spell. Well what I mean is I know TKD practioners bow differently from chinesse and japanesse stylists. I've also heard them say something when they bow at the end of a class, but I'm not sure what it is/means. Also what is the correct address for an instructor (sifu/guru/sensei, type of thing).

Thanx

[waya]

I usually use the term Instructor or Master depending on rank and status. I rarely hear the Korean terms actually used (although some do use them in Korean). The main things I have heard said in Korean is Kyeongre (which means bow).
The term in Korean for instructor is Sabeom Nim, Master is generally the same as instructor, Grandmaster - Kwan Jang Nim, Chief Instructor - Chung Sah Nim, Teacher - Kyo Sah Nim, Senior Student - Sun Bae Nim

[Chazz]

Ok here we go: *LOL*

Most bow like the japanesse so that would work. What a lot say at the end of class is "Tae Kwon". What you should call them bepends on them. Some go by rank (Sansei Nim-1st dan, Kyo Sa Nim, 2nd dan and up, Kwan Jung Nim-Grandmaster) but im sure you could get aways with Sensei. If all else fails call them Sir, and Mamma! *LOL*

-Chazz

[Chazz]

Oh BTW to say hi and goodbye is ahnyong hasayo or just ahnyong (sounds like unyung ha-say-yo)

go here this will help a lot http://www.martialartsresource.com/korean/TKD.list.htm#Titles

-Chazz

[waya]

LOL @ Mamma

I didn't know the terms between WTF and ITF were different also.
Guess there is more seperation between the two than I realized.
in the WTF schools I have attended they yell "Face and bow to the flag" at the beginning and end of class, as well as formally bow to all instructors present (in Korean). I am fairly sure though that not nearly all schools are quite so formal.

[Chazz]

At the start of class head instructor says "face flags" Cha Ryod-Kyung Nae (Attention-bow) then the head instructor faces the class, the head student says Cha Ryod-Kyo Sa Nim-Kyung Nae (Attention Head instrustors Rank bow)

At the end of class we say our club oath, head instructor says "face flags" Cha Ryod-Kyung Nae (Attention-bow) Faces the class, says "tae Kwon" the class repeats. the head student says Cha Ryod-Kyo Sa Nim-Kyung Nae (Attention Head instrustors Rank bow) the 2nd ranked student call the class to face the Sr. students and says Cha Ryod-Kyung Nae (Attention-bow) or if the head student is a black belt Cha Ryod-what ever rank-Kyung Nae (Attention Head black belt students Rank bow)

thats how we do it, a lot of schools are different

-Chazz

[waya]

In the school I am at now we're not formal at all. But there are only 4 students so we can be relaxed. We bow at the beginning of class to our instructor, then start training, then he asks us questions at the end of class about things we need to know and work on, then we bow out of class. He's really to the point and on to training lol

[Chazz]

*LOL* yeah mine is like that as well. Our class are most of the time formal. At my school that i run and teach, i give them an easy day once in a while. (tshirt and uniform pants) *LOL*

[waya]

LOL we do that on Fridays. The thing we have is the differences in uniforms because before the move we were doing TKD, HKD, and JKD (I see a pattern with things containing KD here lol). Now we moved to a community center and only have time for one art

[Chazz]

what style uniform you like better

[waya]

I prefer the traditional top.... mostly because I have spent nearly my whole life wearing one. The TKD V-neck is good for heavy workouts and tournaments though because it tends not to bunch up as much so I wear it sometimes.

[Chazz]

Ive only worn a traditional one. Im buying a Vneck though to work out in

[waya]

You'll like it I think.... My advice is to cut the little elastic string that goes around your waist under the uniform off. It comes undone all the time and hangs out the back and tends to look embarassing LOL (happened to me on a test lol)

[Chazz]

*LOL* oh ok.

TAE KWON DO TALK has taken off. Good job members

-Chazz

[Freeform]

I've worn the V-neck top but pesonally i prefer the Japanese Gi. Is the V-neck called a dobok, or is that just a general term for a training uniform?

Freeform

[Chazz]

Thats just a general term for a Korean uniform

[Andy Murray]

Is this a Martial arts Forum, or a dressmaking column for little girlies.

Can anyone tell me what kind of starch to use in my suit, it just doesn't make the right noise when I punch.

lol

[Chazz]

HAHA, that was funny :-(

Chazz

[Andy Murray]

Sorry Chazz, I just realised that one of my more flippant posts has killed your thread. I apologise.

I noticed that some of the TKD offshoots use something they call 'Twisting Kick'. Do you use this in ITF, and if so, how do you throw it without dislocating your hips?

[waya]

hmmmmmmmmm Twisting kick? Describe this one...... Might be something that is in Hapkido or WTF TKD also.

Rob

[Chazz]

Yeah describe this. I havent heard of that kick but we might do it but just call it something different

-Chazz

[Andy Murray]

OK.

Imagine you are standing with your left leg forward and your right leg behind you.

You have an attacker to your right.

You throw your right leg as if you were going to hit the guy with a front kick about a foot in front of his face.

At the last minute, you twist the kick to the right, so the ball of your right foot is catching him in the face.

The kick's energy is going out and up at about a 45 degree angle.

I picked this up from Choi Kwang Do!

I'd show you what I mean, but I'd be in hospital for a month !afterwards

[Chazz]

oh ok i know what you mean
we call it an Inverted Round Kick.
We use it just like you said. Its just a quick action kick that is used on someone that is about a foot in front of you

[LilBunnyRabbit]

An easier way to throw it is to bring your knee up and across into almost a side kick chamber, then swing your foot up and outwards with the ball of the foot as the weapon. You don't get a huge amount of power (although its still a reasonable kick and more powerful than a punch) but you can target pretty much wherever you want to whether your opponent is in front, besides or at an angle to you and it's fast.

[TkdWarrior]

if u r not fighting in competition then u should be using ur shin to his knees or back of his thigh(it's always my prefference to demobilze)...
for competition u should move in V to ur oppnt... moving in V with skipping kick(dollyochogki) will fetch u 2 points and u can finish with side kick ... in ur case u'll be moving to left of u to provide better target to u and give bad target for ur opnnt...
if ur oppnt is not good in feet he's screwed in there even if he is... its not easy to stop any kick at belt level...around waist height...
anyways i m assuming that ur lead is opposite to ur oppnt...
-TkdWarrior-

[Artikon]

Hi everyone . . . new here :)

From Chaz982001
ITF - Debated to be the First form of TKD started after the anchient Taekeon (2333 bc) (i believe this)

This isn't fully correct, I'll just elaborate a wee bit. ITF was most definatley formed before the conception of the WTF organization and Kukkiwon however neither are the forefathers of TKD.

Originally after the 2nd world war there were 9 major kwans in Korea teaching the martial arts (various styles including judo, karate, Taekyon, Tangsoodo) Once the Japanese oppression was lifted these schools began talks to create an art that was better for the Korean people. General Choi was involved in this since he was the Kwan Jang of the Oh Do Kwan but there were many other schools and Kwan Jangs involved.
(Insert random controvery and arguing between Kwans and the Kwan Jang Nims)
Okay now with all that behind the kwans The KTA (Korean Taekwondo association) was formed. It collapsed once due to the startup of the korean war, and various other aspects. The KTA was later reformed and still exists today, but during it's second coming Gen Choi left for reasons I won't go into here and began the formation of his forms and later the ITF

In the early 70's (73 off thetop of my head) The WTF and Kukkiwon was spawned from the KTA, both with specific goals. WTF is responsible for the sport of TKD (olympic that is) and remains a sporting organization rather than a martial art organization. This is a huge misconception of the WTF even by many if not most of the WTF members. The Kukkiwon handles the development of the art including self defense, forms, etc . . .

Oh and just one more point, forget who mentioned this but there are 16 color belt patterns in the Kukkiwon/WTF TKD however the Palgwae (first set developed) are no longer officially used, still taught but are not required for dan certification. The Taegeuk poomse are the newer color belt forms which are required by Kukkiwon for dan certification. There are 8 forms in each series.
There is also a new set of forms being developed that are supposed to be unveiled in the next couple years . . . or so the rumors say ;)

Much of the information in this message has been taken and translated from Kang Won Sik and Lee Kyong Myong book "A Modern History of Taekwondo"
These two were at the initial meetings and gatherings to form the KTA and development of TKD so I take them as fairly well informed persons.

Hope that helps.

Cheers

[Melanie]

Hi Artikon,

Nice to have you on board. Also nice to see such an in-depth first post. :)

We hope you enjoy the forums/magazine, etc and look forward to more input from you.

[Martial Sloth]

A bit off topic, whats the difference between TSD and TKD?? I've posted this question on a number of other forums, but as of yet, not too much input.

Anyone out there who can help?

[Artikon]

In actuallity, Tangsoodo, and Taekwondo are basically cousins. Going back to my first post speaking about the 9 major kwans, one of the kwans was the Moo duk kwan, and they went through some problems because of their Kwan Jang not agreeing with everything that the other Kwans were discussing (testing requirements, who was on the testing committee, who was president . . . those sort of things) Once the KTA was formed . . . I think it was for the first time, I'll have to go back and check, Hwang Kee, the Kwan Jang of the Moo duk kwan, basically said enough of this noise and broke away taking his followers from the Moo duk kwan, and leaving the rest of the school under 2 others masters from the same school, Kim Young Taek and Hong Chong Soo.

Afterwards what Hwang Kee did was create the Korean Soo Bahk Do Association, which evolved into what is now basically known as Tang soo do (Soo Bahk Do more tradition name and influenced by the much older Taekyon)

As for specific techniques/applications and the such, I really don't have much info on that since I haven't actually studied TSD. Anyone out there care to elaborate?

Cheers

[FireMedic]

Hey there, was just reading through this thread and found it very interesting to see what it is like in different schools. To me, I couldn't care less for people with attitudes that they are better then someone else either because of their affiliation or because their belt is a higher color. Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for any and all belts wether they are lower, the same as mine, or higher. Just somthing I suppose I learned from 7 yrs in the Special Forces. You are who you are. If others don't like it. The're not worth knowing. Anyway, to a point I read ealier in this thread. My Sabomnim has training in the ITF but also has trained Allied Special Forces, Judo, Submission Grappling, Wrestling, and Vale Tudo. The most important thing he has taught us while sparring is to use your heart and mind. If we tend to favour either "kicks" or "punches" to much, he has us spar doing only the one we are weakest in. I believe that this has taught me to use all of my resources while doing TKD. But like they say, only with a knowledge of all aspects can you even begin to master the art of learning. By the way, this site is terrific so keep up the great work.
cheers

[mountainsage]

Artikon, I hate to point this out, but WTF and kukkiwon are the same thing sorta. WTF is Olympics and Kukkiwon is paperwork, same organization. There is no art of TKD in Korea, just the sport of TKD. The ROK doesn't recognize TKD as a martial art, only a sport. I do not question your source, just the what motivated your source and many others to make these claims.

Mountainsage

[Kenpo Kicker]

oh ok i know what you mean
we call it an Inverted Round Kick.
We use it just like you said. Its just a quick action kick that is used on someone that is about a foot in front of you


I take itf tkd and we call this a twist kick and not many use it. I cannot get any power out of it. I can do the kick fine without hurting a knee or injury though. Good for a point fight I think it is rather sneaky.

Ok here we go: *LOL*

Most bow like the japanesse so that would work. What a lot say at the end of class is "Tae Kwon". What you should call them bepends on them. Some go by rank (Sansei Nim-1st dan, Kyo Sa Nim, 2nd dan and up, Kwan Jung Nim-Grandmaster) but im sure you could get aways with Sensei. If all else fails call them Sir, and Mamma! *LOL*

-Chazz


Actually since they are so similar I will bow wrong and get yelled at in tkd. It is disrespectful to koreans to bow with your feet open. In kenpo I think they used a chinnese bow rather than japanese so that is also different than the karate I take now it is more like a wing chun bow.

[Infesticon #1]

we do the twisting kick, can't say I like it much.

we typically start like Chunbi (ready stance) Charyot(attention stance) kyong-ye (bow) and you're only supposed to bow 15 degrees or so and keep your eyes forward. then we typically get told to go right leg back Daebi Makgi (guarding block)

we end in a similar we, but we also bow to the senior student as well as the instructor.




Question.

what is the point of Sang Palmok makgi (Twin F arm block)

[KickChick]

Question.
what is the point of Sang Palmok makgi (Twin F arm block)


"This technique can be used to block a simultaneous attack from the front and from the side.
The side block is the primary defense. This block can be performed in pretty much any stance but the back stance is the most used stance for this block.
The side blocking forearm usually performs a middle block. It should be stressed that although a rising block may also be effective against an attack toward the forehead, the side block is the primary focus of defense.
When blocking from a left back stance (L-stance you bring the right forearm inside the left forearm and visa versa"
(taken from Vol. 3 Encyclopedia of Tae Kwon do)

[Thomas]

Artikon, I hate to point this out, but WTF and kukkiwon are the same thing sorta. WTF is Olympics and Kukkiwon is paperwork, same organization. There is no art of TKD in Korea, just the sport of TKD. The ROK doesn't recognize TKD as a martial art, only a sport. I do not question your source, just the what motivated your source and many others to make these claims.

Mountainsage
(bold face added)

I am curious how you came to this conclusion.

From my personal experience, including 4 years in Korea, I would say that that TKD in Korea is primarily sport-oriented but not exclusively. There are some people in Korea who treat TKD as a martial art. Not all TKD is pure sport. Here's a couple of threads that may shed some other views on this topic:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11651
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2677&page=5&pp=15&highlight=ITF

[Tosh]

I take itf tkd and we call this a twist kick and not many use it. I cannot get any power out of it. I can do the kick fine without hurting a knee or injury though. Good for a point fight I think it is rather sneaky.

Actually the most useful part of the low twisting kick is a set up to other kicks, it's meant as a distraction.

Aiming for the inside of the lead leg knee or inside groin it's meant to drop the guard or shift the oppenents weight. This gives easy options for the hands or rear leg to come into play. ;)

Stop thinking everything has to be powerfull kids, some techniques ae designed as set ups for others.

[Tosh]

On another note, does either KC, Thomas, mattsylvester et al have a thorough exaplanation of the lowdouble forearm pushing block? (As found in Toi-Gye-ITF)

Doo Palmok Najunde Miro Makgi? Anyone? :D

I've seen a couple of applications demostrated at seminars but have never been thoroughly convinced.

Any ideas?

[KickChick]

I just looked that up in the encyclopedia (Vol 6) and from looking at the applications for the "niunja so palmok najunde miro makgi" (L-stance double forearm low pushing block) ... it shows it as blocking a mid-level front kick.

[Tosh]

Does the volume explain why it's "pushing"?

For me the front kick would be fine if it was deflecting it, but then why use the circular motion of the pushing block? :confused:

[KickChick]

Doesn't use the term "pushing" but rather "thrusting" downwards ...

[Tosh]

Hmmmmmm, stranger and stranger?

My 5th edition Encylopedia(cond) says,

"Bring the right foot to the left foot and move the left foot to D, forming a right L-stance toward D while executing a low pushing block to D with the left double forearm."

Pushing or Thrusting, any idea why? :confused:

[Kenpo Kicker]

Actually the most useful part of the low twisting kick is a set up to other kicks, it's meant as a distraction.

Aiming for the inside of the lead leg knee or inside groin it's meant to drop the guard or shift the oppenents weight. This gives easy options for the hands or rear leg to come into play. ;)

Stop thinking everything has to be powerfull kids, some techniques ae designed as set ups for others.


I doubt it would serve me any purpose in a street fight. I would rather use a shin kick to the inner thigh which has more power or front kick to the groin. Imo the kick is useless. I aint a kid and I do like power for stand up.

[KickChick]

Hmmmmmm, stranger and stranger?

My 5th edition Encylopedia(cond) says,

"Bring the right foot to the left foot and move the left foot to D, forming a right L-stance toward D while executing a low pushing block to D with the left double forearm."

Pushing or Thrusting, any idea why? :confused:

Encyclopedia on Legacy CD
Pg. 314
108. L-Stance Double Forearm Low Pushing Block (Niunja So Palmok Najunde Miro Makgi)
a. Forward Stepping Block
b. Left L-ready stance.

i.Move the left foot to D forming a right L-stance toward D while blocking to D with the left double forearm and then “thrust” to D with the right flat fingertip maintaining the same stance toward D
ii. (opposite of above move the right….)

This to me sounds like Yoo Sin movements 35 & 37

[Romantic]

Throwing all these kicks, did a lot of the students experience lower back, hip or knee pain?
My right leg is now messed up because of my TKD training. Whenever I try to keep my right leg straight while kicking or stretching and doing splits, it hurts like never before. My left leg is fine, but my right leg feels like something is pulling at it from within. I suck in the pain, but it doesn't go away, no matter how hard I stretch to relax my leg. I guess pain is pleasure, so no complaints there.

[Kenpo Kicker]

My right leg is now messed up because of my TKD training. Whenever I try to keep my right leg straight while kicking or stretching and doing splits, it hurts like never before. My left leg is fine, but my right leg feels like something is pulling at it from within. I suck in the pain, but it doesn't go away, no matter how hard I stretch to relax my leg. I guess pain is pleasure, so no complaints there.


Was this from a torn hamstring?

[Tosh]

I doubt it would serve me any purpose in a street fight. I would rather use a shin kick to the inner thigh which has more power or front kick to the groin. Imo the kick is useless. I aint a kid and I do like power for stand up.

1) "Kiddies" was directed at then general public not as an insinuation I consider you age a factor, grow some thicker skin. Anyone 6 years younger than me I call "kiddies" including my students.

2) After I say "not everythings meant for power" you tell me about 2 power techniques? :confused: My point was it's not meant to be a power technique.

Twisting kicks are at there most useful when it's taller attacker against smaller, it's an entry technique to stop big guys using large stopping kicks to keep you from getting inside their leg range.

I'll try again, it's not a power technique, it's a set up FOR a power technique.

3) It's not for everyone and it's only for a specific situation, if you can't find a use for it it's your perrogative. To say it's totally useless is verging on arrogant. Maybe it's useless for you, I catch taller guys all the time with it!

:D

[Kenpo Kicker]

1) "Kiddies" was directed at then general public not as an insinuation I consider you age a factor, grow some thicker skin. Anyone 6 years younger than me I call "kiddies" including my students.

2) After I say "not everythings meant for power" you tell me about 2 power techniques? :confused: My point was it's not meant to be a power technique.

Twisting kicks are at there most useful when it's taller attacker against smaller, it's an entry technique to stop big guys using large stopping kicks to keep you from getting inside their leg range.

I'll try again, it's not a power technique, it's a set up FOR a power technique.

3) It's not for everyone and it's only for a specific situation, if you can't find a use for it it's your perrogative. To say it's totally useless is verging on arrogant. Maybe it's useless for you, I catch taller guys all the time with it!

:D

1 thats an insult, I know you were talking to the general public but still find it rather rude.

2 I told you about more practical stronger kicks

3 I agree with you there it is useless to me so are axe kicks atm (I have strong axe kicks but i'm small and they are not at most ppls head height) It is a kick there isn't much technique to it. I perfer something stronger. Would you honestly use a twist kick in a fight?

[Tosh]

1) Sorry you see it that way. I still think you are over-reacting. Theres 40 year olds in my class that get called "children" or kids when they mis-behave or arn't listening.

2) Funnily enough, I am aware of them ;)

Your inital post you mentioned you couldn't get any power in it. I pointed out it's not meant to be the most powerfull technique. Is there something I've missed here?

:confused:

[Kenpo Kicker]

My point was that there are better kicks to do the job, but you do not agree, so I think thats it.

[Tosh]

No, I'm saying it does a different job to the one you think it does, but it seems you're too busy arguing with me to notice. :D

[KickChick]

My point was that there are better kicks to do the job, but you do not agree, so I think thats it.


What tosh is trying to explain to you (my what patience you have tosh .... care to come sit with my kiddies sometime?) is just that!

Tae Kwon do contains a myriad of kicks .... a skilled "kicker" IMO would not deem any kick as useless.
I prefer to make sure that my arsenal is well equipped before going into battle....

Kempo Kicker, your sig states that "your kicks are your missiles"... surely you have "surface-to-air", "air-to-air", "air-to-surface", and the purely tactical "surface-to-surface"

[FireMedic]

I have a question since we are on the subject of kicks......I am having a prob with my turning kicks. I am pulling my foot and toes back but so far I have managed to break 2 of them..... :cry: .......please......any tips.....

[Kenpo Kicker]

What tosh is trying to explain to you (my what patience you have tosh .... care to come sit with my kiddies sometime?) is just that!

Tae Kwon do contains a myriad of kicks .... a skilled "kicker" IMO would not deem any kick as useless.
I prefer to make sure that my arsenal is well equipped before going into battle....

Kempo Kicker, your sig states that "your kicks are your missiles"... surely you have "surface-to-air", "air-to-air", "air-to-surface", and the purely tactical "surface-to-surface"

I doubt it would serve me any purpose in a street fight. I would rather use a shin kick to the inner thigh which has more power or front kick to the groin. Imo the kick is useless. I aint a kid and I do like power for stand up.

What is wrong with stating my opinion? I do not see how you can use this kick effect enough to consider it a useful kick. I am not limited to just tkd kicks btw.


"a skilled "kicker" IMO would not deem any kick as useless.
"

That sounds foolish and close minded to me .


Edit: For the record I do respect your opinions on twist kicks.

[Artikon]

I have a question since we are on the subject of kicks......I am having a prob with my turning kicks. I am pulling my foot and toes back but so far I have managed to break 2 of them..... .......please......any tips.....

I assume you are trying to use the ball of your foot for your striking surface on your turn kick. My suggestion would be (without seeing of course) is to make sure you are turning your hips fully over. Without doing this you won't be able to get the proper angle of attack with your foot as well as you won't be in a position to expose the proper surface.

A drill you can use is to simply stay in a chambered position paralell with a wall, using the wall as support if you have to, and slowly practise kicking the wall with ball. Do reps of 10 slow kicks from the chambered position and then return to chamber each time you complete a kick. Switch legs after 10 kicks, wash rinse and repeat as needed.

Next question is have you tried using your instep as opposed to the ball of your foot? And finally what part of Canada you from? PM me with that one if you like :)

[Tosh]

What is wrong with stating my opinion? I do not see how you can use this kick effect enough to consider it a useful kick. I am not limited to just tkd kicks btw.

Neither am I & nothing wrong with stating your opinion. In my opinion, you don't really appreciate what the twisting kick is for, no ones stopping your opinion -still doesn't mean you are right ;)

What I'm trying to point out what the kick is for. If you see it as an out and out kick on it's own for power then it is useless, much the same as a jab on it's own doesn't yield many results without the cross.

That sounds foolish and close minded to me .

1 page ago,

Imo the kick is useless.

Pot & Kettle Much? :D

Do you concede at least that the twisting kick is not designed as a power technique, as per your first post on the thread, and that all I was trying to do was to give some insight on it's practical use?

Heaven forbid anyone should think your opinion is wrong eh? :D

[Kenpo Kicker]

Not really. I asked a buddy of mine today who is a 3rd degree (granted your probly a higher rank since you teach he also teaches) what he thought of the kick. Even though he will disagree with me on stuff without a problem I made sure I did not persuade him into thinking I disliked the kick just yet. I said to him "Is a twist kick any good"? He responded "it's good for point sparring" . Then I told Him I do not like the kick and asked him if it was useless and he replied that he didn't know if it was useless. His preference is a stomp kick rather than a twist kick. I forgot to ask him about the areas you suggested to be ideal targets. He also said he broke 3 boards with the kick so there is power in it. I never tried a board break with a twist kick but that is pretty good. I don't concede rather I don't think it is useless but there are far better kicks out there for ME. I will ask ppl at my school too I aint close minded my friend even though it may sound like it. Sorry I dissed a kick you enjoy. I still would never use it.



Do you concede at least that the twisting kick is not designed as a power technique, as per your first post on the thread, and that all I was trying to do was to give some insight on it's practical use?

Heaven forbid anyone should think your opinion is wrong eh? :D

Yes, you did point out some nice logic and thx for that. I can hit those areas fine without a twist kick and ect (so i don't argue anymore). I am not afraid to admit I am wrong in a opinion. I am partial wrong here as I see it. I may have not put enough thought in it that day.



I am intrested in what combos you use with a twist kick (even though I do not care much for a twist kick maybe I miss something in combos and would love to hear an example).

[Tosh]

Okay lets clear some things up:

I never said I enjoyed the kick.

I never said it was the most effective kick.

I never said it couldn't be used for power. I said it's not designed specifically with this in mind. I could use kitchen knife to chop down a tree, doesn't mean I wouldn't rather use a chainsaw ;).


I am intrested in what combos you use with a twist kick (even though I do not care much for a twist kick maybe I miss something in combos and would love to hear an example).

Personally, I've always been taught to use this kick as a utility kick. I.e. If the target is not on for the usual choice, front-pushing, side-stop kick etc (both aimed at the hip/groin) then it's an easy turn of the hips to give the twisting kick a target before using the straight blast or bringing in the rear leg for a power technique again. Usually the leg tech will always be a low roundhouse/turning due to the hip dynamics of the twisting kick.

My continual choice for using this kick is actually a very specific situation. Since I'm 5'7" a large problem is taller guys using stop kicks to avoid me closing the distance so I can use my hands. Now one counter that works from a closed stance is a hopping turning kick round the 45 degree angle. Of course the problem with this is if the other person is wise to this and continually switches stance to an "open" formation. In this situation the turning kick from the front leg is not on due to the fact that the angle presents no clear target. This is where I use the front leg twisting kick to hit the thigh and "switch off" the danger from the front leg stop kick. This gives me enough time to close the distance and get to work on the hand techs inside leg range.

The only reason I've found this is because I'm probably the shortest guy on the National team which means the taller guys suss my counters early on. Without the twisting kick I wouldn't be able to close that distance without taking some hits going in (which sucks :(). In a situation where both people are about equal height this kick is not as effective purely down to the fact the dyanamics of the hip and the target is not suited. A taller opponent is more preferable.

But hey that's just what works for me. Application are always there for situations, I like to have every tool available, just in case ;)

[Timmy Boy]

As for specific techniques/applications and the such, I really don't have much info on that since I haven't actually studied TSD. Anyone out there care to elaborate?Cheers

I study Tang Sou Dao. Grandmaster Meng Kwong Loke of the Ren Yi Wu Kwan had studied Tang Soo Do under Hwang Kee, and introduced some chinese techniques which he felt were left out way back in the day, naming the new development of the art Tang Sou Dao.

As far as the style itself goes, I'd describe it as leggy karate. We use karate stances, punches, blocks and katas (forms in TSD) but we do a lot of stretching exercises, our stances arent as low, and the kicking techniques are definitely very Korean. I must emphasise that there are many good fighters at my club who use mainly the hand techniques, which may differentiate it from taekwondo.

[em_tagb]

hiya i am new on this site. what do you think is the easiest way of learning your korean? i would love to know how everyone does it. i find it hard to do sometimes. please reply back.
Love Emma x :)

[Tosh]

Stick post it notes around the hourse with things you need to remember on,

every time you opne the cupboard English and Korean translation , maybe even a picture! (forefist/joomuk etc).

[Sun Hwang]

One question, I know it's been talked about a ton, but where on the person do you guys look when you're sparring. I usually look in their eyes, especially if I spar them frequently I can tell by their eyes what they're going to do.

Sometimes though I look at their chest. I do it on purpose because if I don't know them at all you can see the whole body if you stare at one point of the chest without really focusing on it. Also I use it to fake people out like by staring at their chest like I'm planning on kicking them there but instead I go fo a head shot and vice versa. Do you guys do this at all?

[Artikon]

I don't know I'd be careful about looking in the eyes of an experienced person. If someone does that to me, I usually try to play games with them :D

Places you can look that will help most are the shoulders. You can see which direction the kick will be coming from depending on how the shoulders turn. Typically once the shoulders start moving the kick is committed, as the whole of the body has started moving. While watching the hips you can faked out since a hip movement can be made without the commitment of the rest of the body. This applies to punches as well, as you can typically see where the punch is coming from by shoulder movement, although the reaction time is less hear.

Any other places people look? Be interested in hearing some opinions on this. For some of the grapplers out there, what are some signs of a person who is going to shoot in.

[Yang, Dae-han]

I don't know I'd be careful about looking in the eyes of an experienced person. If someone does that to me, I usually try to play games with them :D

Places you can look that will help most are the shoulders. You can see which direction the kick will be coming from depending on how the shoulders turn. Typically once the shoulders start moving the kick is committed, as the whole of the body has started moving. While watching the hips you can faked out since a hip movement can be made without the commitment of the rest of the body. This applies to punches as well, as you can typically see where the punch is coming from by shoulder movement, although the reaction time is less hear.

Any other places people look? Be interested in hearing some opinions on this. For some of the grapplers out there, what are some signs of a person who is going to shoot in.

Arti,

I respectfully disagree. Since the hips are the centre of the body, it would only prove harder to fake from the hips, than the shoulders. I always gaze/watch the hips....nowhere else.

In addition, in American rules football (and Aussie rules football, for me) we are taught to watch the hips and not the shoulders in carrying out tackles.

As for arms movement...well, I boxed for quite some time. Though some boxers 'telegraph' their intentions, I found that the more experienced fighters did not...so again, relying on shoulders is not what I would suggest.

When I used to free-fight with my mates, I noticed that those who would rush in (for a tackle or submission attempt) the body would be dropped <overly-bent knees> (akin to a sprinter's beginning stance).

Cheers,

DH

[Kwajman]

Woo hoo, I agree, I look at about the level of the belt knot while sparring. That way, my peripheral vision can see the hands, head, hips and feet.

[Artikon]

Interesting Dae-han

I do agree with you about the hips, perhaps my experience is just playing into what I watch, since I am heavily into sport aspect right now. When I spar competition wise I'm not so overly concerned about catching the incoming punches. But when I do see the shoulders twist either forward or away from me, I have a good idea which way I need to move to avoid the incoming kick.

I think I will try to incorporate a little more focus on the hips as an experiment right now to see how it affects my reaction time, as well I think I'll play with some grapplers again to read the shoots a bit better.

[ClumsyFoot]

I focus on solar plexus, for same peripheral vision resons others mention: Shortens the peripheral range to any extremity.

E.g., If I focus on eyes, I can't see feet as easily... plus if you look at eyes the experienced MAs play head games with you, as somebody mentioned already.

[Qis]

Ohkio, only read the first 3 pages, so appologies if this has already been asked.
I've looked around but i can't seem to get an answer.
when sparring(wtf competition rules) what's the deal with blocking with your legs? i naturally jam my shin into an attacking leg( which hurts us both, but saves me from losing a point) is this ok?
seeing as shin guards are compulsory, i assume this is ok.
another thing, in competiton sparring, is it ok to strike to wind your opponent witha punch, rather than punch to score( by knocking them over) i'm thinking of something like a body-hook or uppercut to the sp? i now neither of these are tkd techniques, but i have difficulty penetrating the hogu with a tkd punch, especially when your in 'wtf clinch'( inside kicking range).

ta

-Qis

[Thomas]

Ohkio, only read the first 3 pages, so appologies if this has already been asked.
I've looked around but i can't seem to get an answer.
when sparring(wtf competition rules) what's the deal with blocking with your legs? i naturally jam my shin into an attacking leg( which hurts us both, but saves me from losing a point) is this ok?
seeing as shin guards are compulsory, i assume this is ok.

Technically, it is illegal because it is de-facto striking with your shins (illegal) and to an illegal target (shins). I train these blocks for use in non-tournament sparring but emphasize that it is illegal in (WTF) sparring.

another thing, in competiton sparring, is it ok to strike to wind your opponent witha punch, rather than punch to score( by knocking them over) i'm thinking of something like a body-hook or uppercut to the sp? i now neither of these are tkd techniques, but i have difficulty penetrating the hogu with a tkd punch, especially when your in 'wtf clinch'( inside kicking range).

ta

-Qis
Actually, you asked this before (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12061) and there's some good advice that came up. In short, yes, I use body shots to weaken the opponment and to make him(her) fear my inside game in the hopes of avoiding clinches (so I can tire my opponent out easier). Many judges won't call a "point" for punches, but you can make them do damage regardless.

[Qis]

Technically, it is illegal because it is de-facto striking with your shins (illegal) and to an illegal target (shins). I train these blocks for use in non-tournament sparring but emphasize that it is illegal in (WTF) sparring.


Actually, you asked this before (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12061) and there's some good advice that came up. In short, yes, I use body shots to weaken the opponment and to make him(her) fear my inside game in the hopes of avoiding clinches (so I can tire my opponent out easier). Many judges won't call a "point" for punches, but you can make them do damage regardless.

I know i asked that question before, and i did get some really useful responses( specifically from yourself) and based quite a lot on the results of that thread i took up kickboxing to increase my hand-ability(it's going well and i really enjoy it). I accept that i can't get a point with most of my punches, but as you said, it can make them uncomfortable up close( meaning they can't get a break by getting inside my kicking range)

as related to shin/blocking/kicking, i'm kinda unhappy to hear that. but hey, if the rules say no shins then no-shins it is (i couldn't find explicit mention of it on the rules pages i checked). It seems horribly natural to raise my front leg to jam a turning kick...grr, guess i'll have to think of something else...

thanks for the help thomas!

-Qis

[Thomas]

Does anyone know who developed the (WTF style) TKD v-neck uniform top and when it was widely adopted in WTF schools?

On a side note, does anyone know of non-WTF schools that wear them?

[KickChick]

There is some info on TKD doboks here ..... http://www.tkdtutor.com/03Dojang/Uniform.htm


I wear a black trimmed v-neck dobok top although our school is not WTF.

[Thomas]

Thanks for the site, but it somehow doesn’t quite ring true for me. I was under the impression that the v-neck uniform was a fairly modern style, designed based on the hanbok style to be comfortable, loose and to distinguish Taekwondo practitioners from other style practitioners (especially Japanese arts). I found a little bit of information on the two sites below… is there anyone out there (seasoned TKDists) who were practicing in the late 1960s and 70s who remember when the v-necks became popular?



“The club’s official uniform consists of loose white pants and a white V-neck top tied with a belt. Click uniform image for example. White wrap around tops are also acceptable for class, but are not permitted when competing. The V-neck is less traditional than the wrap around top and has come into common use only in the last 40 years. However, many people find that it is easier to keep properly tied and is more comfortable. A person wearing a black V-neck uniform is someone who has the responsibility of an instructor and can be counted on by lower ranks for instruction - only 1st gups and black belts may wear black V-necks.” (http://www.wsutkd.org/Dojang/uniform.html)

“The outfit comprises a V-neck upper garment, a pair of pants and a belt. Before this new-style uniform was adopted by the World Taekwondo Federation in 1978, taekwondo practitioners wore a jacket instead of the V-neck top.” (http://web.singnet.com.sg/~cheechiu/taekwondo/taekwondo2.htm)

[mattsylvester]

The UKTA and TAGB use them or similar tops rather than the crossover traditional ones. SWIFT also does.

Kempo Ryu Kickboxing also uses then but with shorter arms.

Does anyone know who developed the (WTF style) TKD v-neck uniform top and when it was widely adopted in WTF schools?

On a side note, does anyone know of non-WTF schools that wear them?

[Thomas]

I am still curious when the v-neck was widely adopted and if anyone remembers them (my guess is late 1970s) but I will ask a new question:

I notice various TKD people wearing either Roman Numerals or Stripes on the belts... on various sides. We persoanlly wear stripes, 1 per dan rank, on the wearer's left side, just below our name. On the right side of the belt we list our school name, style name, and/or master's name.

Is this a WTF/ITF thing or does it vary among individual schools?

[Smokemare]

As I used to be TAGB, we used to go with stripes mainly but some people chose numerals - as a choice thing I think. Now with Puma my new belt will have numerals and my name. Soemthing which I find a little objectionable actually, but everyone else has there name on too so... The presentation evening is 22nd of May. I don't think I will, but If I get a credit or more I will e over the moon.

[KickChick]

In our school....
we too wear stripes, 1 per dan rank, on the belt right side, just below our name. On the left side of the belt is our first and last name embroidered in Korean.

[Yang, Dae-han]

I notice various TKD people wearing either Roman Numerals or Stripes on the belts... on various sides. We persoanlly wear stripes, 1 per dan rank, on the wearer's left side, just below our name. On the right side of the belt we list our school name, style name, and/or master's name.

I think it's a cultural thing, as I've only seen western practitioners put stripes on their belts (for all belt colours). Me? I've only my names, school, 'lineage,' and association...and will never put stripes on my belt.

Did the HKD schools you went to in Korea use stripes? I can't recall ever seeing stripes in Korea. Ever.

Although, I suppose I'll have to get a new belt...one that Americans can read.

Cheers,

DH

[Smokemare]

When I was with the TAGB, at first everybody used stripes, I think Mr Towndrow was one of the first people to start on numerals when he was 4th or 5th Dan. Now in PUMA everybody seems to go with numerals, I think in the condensed encyclopedia the page with all the belts on has them with Numerals.

I like the idea of having your grade on your belt. Recently I attended a training session run by Master Choi Jung Hwa, lining up at the start was difficult to do in anything like rank order, the only real correctness came from the 4th Dans and above (Distinguishable for the black stripes on the arms.) Nearest the front, third, second and first were all over the place... I guess it shouldn't really matter, but maybe there could come circumstances, when it would be important to know each others grade? I can't think of any off-hand though.

[Thomas]

I think it's a cultural thing, as I've only seen western practitioners put stripes on their belts (for all belt colours). Me? I've only my names, school, 'lineage,' and association...and will never put stripes on my belt.

Did the HKD schools you went to in Korea use stripes? I can't recall ever seeing stripes in Korea. Ever.

Although, I suppose I'll have to get a new belt...one that Americans can read.

Cheers,

DH

I never saw "stripes" in Korea... and none of my rank belts (Hapkido or TKD) from Korea have stripes on them... the right side has our 'lineage/school' and the left my name in Korean.

I sometimes wear a plain black belt, sometimes my Korean ones (comfy), and now have a new one with stripes and the master's name and such (which I usually wear for gradings and such). My favorite one is a nice soft one that my wife had embroidered for me in Korea with my full name on the left and both organizations (KHF,KTF) on the right... that way I can wear the same belt for Hapkido and TKD class! It's neat to see the different reactions and assumptions that students make based on what's on your belt.

[FireMedic]

ok. this may not be a technical ? But I have noticed that people within the TKD forum have a pic of thier belts at the bottom of thier posts.(such as smokmare above) Where are they and how do I put one on for myself?

[KickChick]

Get yer belts here....
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15479

[Adam]

Dear TKDists.

Does TKD do the shin block used in MT and full contact karate? Does TKD even do low kicking at all?

Thank you.

[Thomas]

Shin blocks and low kicks are illegal in competition (WTF).

We do train them in class, especially for self defence applications. TKD kickers should be able to throw their kicks fromthe range of ankle height to head height ideally... we use higher kicks for compeition and low kicks for self defence and other applications.

[FireMedic]

thanks KC. :)

[Zen TKD Warrior]

Question - what is a good defensive move for a side kick? Have a guy in my school who lives by them. While sparring with him you can see him step up for it - telegraph - and most of the time beat it or move out of range. The question is - how to avoid it as soon as the instructor says "fight"? I tell my students to look for a lean (to the back), as most people do this prior to the kick. This isn't always the case. I also tell students not to stand flat footed and move back and to the side.

Any help would be great.

[Twimyo Jirugi]

I'd be ready by standing on the balls of my feet, then jump to his blindside
-or-
Side step palm block

[Smokemare]

I reap dividends by sliding back and scooping the leg - HARD, throwing them off balance, and turning their backs to me, then blitz in striking to back of the head to bury them. Another unorthodox way of defending against it is as they raise their kick, do a side pushing kick to the thigh, just as they are getting ready to kick, it won't score, but it can be very frustrating and it keeps your arms free to defend against a second technique if the first was intended as a feint.

[James Smith]

I have a question. Why would anyone study WTF Tae Kwon Do. WTF Tae Kwon Do is just a game of tag. ITF is actually a martial art.

[kyokutsuki]

What's better TKD or Kyokushin or Jiujitsu ?
What are the strenghts and weakneses of TKD

[Kyberneticka]

Question- I train with a guy who has crossed trained in Aikiedo (sp?), and MT.

Normally i don't spar with him as he has no self control and has a huge amount of weight behind him and i can't afford a couple of days/weeks out of work.
I sparred with him yesterday and he throws in a couple of tricks to distract you, all of which i know about and take no heed, but everytime i kick, he grabs my foot to make me close the gap and for him to punch me. I got the punch in first and he jumped back still holding my foot and nearly tearing my thigh from my hip.

I probably won't be sparring with him again and i spoke to my instructor about it.....but do you guys have any tips?

[kyokutsuki]

I was wonder that a TKD student wouldn't stand mutch ov a chance in close quater combat ie. on a bus or train compered to a karateka or boxer
True?Falulse? plz reply

[neryo_tkd]

we don't support questions and threads that deal with 'style vs style' or 'this style has no chance against that style' so refrain from doing so in the future. if you think that one style doesn't stand a chance against another, then don't train it because we don't need any flaming. if you think that one style isn't worth anything, ok, it's your opinion, but also know that there are people aroud here who do train it and are successful in it.

as far as the questions in the posts above are concerned, use the search button, we already have threads discussing it.

[James Smith]

I could tell from your post you did WTF TaeKwon do.