Please, someone give me the honest low-down on HKD. . .

[shadow_priest_x]

From what I've been able to determine, Hapkido looks pretty cool. I like the idea of a TMA that combines both striking and grappling. There seems to be a confusion of information, though, and I'm not sure what the problem is.

Let me give you some examples. . .

1) I've had people describe Hapkido as: TKD - flashy kicks + throws and jointlocks. But then other people bitterly dispute this. Is this an inaccurate description? Specifically, is HKD striking similar to TKD? Are there flashy kicks in HKD?

2) Some have described HKD grappling as being very similar to judo and others describe it as being very similar to Aikido. (I have also heard some say that HKD grappling came from aikido . . . while others say it came from jujutsu.) Then again . . . I have also heard some say that HKD grappling is NOTHING like judo! Well, which is it? I know that when I watched some "PRO Hapkido" videos on YouTube that not only did the throws look like Judo but the tournaments looked similar to MMA competitions. Not the same . . . but similar, i.e. punch, punch, kick, grab, throw, arm bar, tap.

3) I have also heard that HKD is not a competitive art. And yet, I can find videos of competitions and hear of people frequently going to competitions. Are competitions common within Hapkido or are the exception rather than the norm?


If anyone could provide some answers, I would appreciate it. I am looking to get back into martial arts and would prefer something in the TMA realm. Just FYI, my background includes 1 1/2 years of TKD (as a kid), a few months of Wushu (as a teen) and 6 months of Judo (as an adult). My favorite thing about Judo was the great amount of live training against resisting opponents.

[American HKD]

From what I've been able to determine, Hapkido looks pretty cool. I like the idea of a TMA that combines both striking and grappling. There seems to be a confusion of information, though, and I'm not sure what the problem is.

Let me give you some examples. . .

1) I've had people describe Hapkido as: TKD - flashy kicks + throws and jointlocks. But then other people bitterly dispute this. Is this an inaccurate description? Specifically, is HKD striking similar to TKD? Are there flashy kicks in TKD?

2) Some have described HKD grappling as being very similar to judo and others describe it as being very similar to Aikido. (I have also heard some say that HKD grappling came from aikido . . . while others say it came from jujutsu.) Then again . . . I have also heard some say that HKD grappling is NOTHING like judo! Well, which is it? I know that when I watched some "PRO Hapkido" videos on YouTube that not only did the throws look like Judo but the tournaments looked similar to MMA competitions. Not the same . . . but similar, i.e. punch, punch, kick, grab, throw, arm bar, tap.

3) I have also heard that HKD is not a competitive art. And yet, I can find videos of competitions and hear of people frequently going to competitions. Are competitions common within Hapkido or are the exception rather than the norm?


If anyone could provide some answers, I would appreciate it. I am looking to get back into martial arts and would prefer something in the TMA realm. Just FYI, my background includes 1 1/2 years of TKD (as a kid), a few months of Wushu (as a teen) and 6 months of Judo (as an adult). My favorite thing about Judo was the great amount of live training against resisting opponents.

HKD is a style of Jujutsu (from Japan) that mixed itself with native Korean kicking prior to TKD.

It's not Aikido but some schools later mixed with Aikido and even some with TKD.

However the original system that I do is neither TKD or AKD influenced.

With that out of the way HKD is one of the best all around systems today, it's more geared as a self defense system not a sport.

[BSR]

From what I've been able to determine, Hapkido looks pretty cool. I like the idea of a TMA that combines both striking and grappling. There seems to be a confusion of information, though, and I'm not sure what the problem is.

Let me give you some examples. . .

1) I've had people describe Hapkido as: TKD - flashy kicks + throws and jointlocks. But then other people bitterly dispute this. Is this an inaccurate description? Specifically, is HKD striking similar to TKD? Are there flashy kicks in HKD?

I think the main reason you see HKD with flashy kicks nowadays is because of the number of TKD schools that teach HKD on the side. You get a lot of TKD people who also claim to know HKD when, in reality, they've learned TKD striking intertwined with HKD self-defense techniques.

Since HKD is an art geared towards self-defense, flashy kicks should NOT play a big part in the curriculum. The head of my federation (USKMAF) does not advocate kicking above the waist area.

2) Some have described HKD grappling as being very similar to judo and others describe it as being very similar to Aikido. (I have also heard some say that HKD grappling came from aikido . . . while others say it came from jujutsu.) Then again . . . I have also heard some say that HKD grappling is NOTHING like judo! Well, which is it? I know that when I watched some "PRO Hapkido" videos on YouTube that not only did the throws look like Judo but the tournaments looked similar to MMA competitions. Not the same . . . but similar, i.e. punch, punch, kick, grab, throw, arm bar, tap.

Personally, I don't think there is any such thing as "Hapkido grappling" at least not if you're talking about groundfighting. Most Hapkidoists would try to avoid the ground if at all possible. I believe a lot of the Pro HKD guys have experience in other arts like Judo and BJJ. Personally, I started training in Judo to make up for HKD's lack of emphasis on grappling. I view HKD as a complete stand-up style that teaches full range of striking, locks, and throws.

3) I have also heard that HKD is not a competitive art. And yet, I can find videos of competitions and hear of people frequently going to competitions. Are competitions common within Hapkido or are the exception rather than the norm?

At this point, HKD competitions are still probably the exception. However, good HKD schools should still do some type of sparring (not TKD-style point sparring) even if they don't compete.


If anyone could provide some answers, I would appreciate it. I am looking to get back into martial arts and would prefer something in the TMA realm. Just FYI, my background includes 1 1/2 years of TKD (as a kid), a few months of Wushu (as a teen) and 6 months of Judo (as an adult). My favorite thing about Judo was the great amount of live training against resisting opponents.

I think Judo compliments HKD very well. To be honest, you might have a harder time finding a HKD school that does the same type of intense "randori" that you find in most Judo schools.

[shadow_priest_x]

BSR:

Thanks for the time to reply. That's some good information.

Now to elaborate, here is one of the PRO Hapkido videos I found on YouTube:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1NLUm1-UXXU

I see a lot of Judo and even some BJJ type stuff in here, including hip throws, double-leg takedowns, rear naked chokes, arm bars and a guillotine. As you say, though, perhaps that has to do with the fact that they're cross-trained in other styles. I guess that's my question, though. Are THESE moves indicative of what you would learn in a HKD class?

And here's an example of a Hapkido tournament video that has some relatively flashy stuff in it:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GOCgfuajpJs&feature=related

As far as cross training between HKD and Judo goes, I think that's what I was kind of trying to avoid. I've been considering doing both TKD and Judo but was thinking that if something like Hapkido can kind of provide both sets of skills and experiences then that's better than trying to split my time and money between two schools/classes. . .

[Bruce W Sims]

Dear Priest:

The difficulty that comes in is that Hapkido has developed as a function of the priorities and goals of two generations of opportunists. Dr. KIMM He-young has just recently published a rather heavily detailed history of the Hapkido arts and has confirmed this observation to my complete satisfaction. Since about 1957 there has been a hailstorm of controversey and competition as people---both Korean and non-Korean--- have worked to use Hapkido to garner standing, recognition, status and revenues for themselves while discounting what everyone else is doing. This is very different from, say, a more standardized MA such as SHOTOKAN Karate which is pretty well-defined.

Having said that, there is some good news ---- and some bad news.

The bad news is that there is so much variance that everyone has their own story and trying to inter-relate these stories can drive you nuts. If this is your tase, I suggest you get Dr. Kimm's book, read it and consider it pretty much the final word on Hapkido from that standpoint.

The Good news is that there is so much variance that with some dilligent searching you are bound to find someone whose goals are in-line with your own. They may not be in the same town with you but at least you don't have to learn something and wish it was something else.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Yohan]

From what I've been able to determine, Hapkido looks pretty cool. I like the idea of a TMA that combines both striking and grappling. There seems to be a confusion of information, though, and I'm not sure what the problem is.

Let me give you some examples. . .

1) I've had people describe Hapkido as: TKD - flashy kicks + throws and jointlocks. But then other people bitterly dispute this. Is this an inaccurate description? Specifically, is HKD striking similar to TKD? Are there flashy kicks in HKD?

2) Some have described HKD grappling as being very similar to judo and others describe it as being very similar to Aikido. (I have also heard some say that HKD grappling came from aikido . . . while others say it came from jujutsu.) Then again . . . I have also heard some say that HKD grappling is NOTHING like judo! Well, which is it? I know that when I watched some "PRO Hapkido" videos on YouTube that not only did the throws look like Judo but the tournaments looked similar to MMA competitions. Not the same . . . but similar, i.e. punch, punch, kick, grab, throw, arm bar, tap.

3) I have also heard that HKD is not a competitive art. And yet, I can find videos of competitions and hear of people frequently going to competitions. Are competitions common within Hapkido or are the exception rather than the norm?


If anyone could provide some answers, I would appreciate it. I am looking to get back into martial arts and would prefer something in the TMA realm. Just FYI, my background includes 1 1/2 years of TKD (as a kid), a few months of Wushu (as a teen) and 6 months of Judo (as an adult). My favorite thing about Judo was the great amount of live training against resisting opponents.

I think you've pretty much answered your own question - Hapkido is a versatile art.

[shadow_priest_x]

Dear Priest:

The difficulty that comes in is that Hapkido has developed as a function of the priorities and goals of two generations of opportunists. Dr. KIMM He-young has just recently published a rather heavily detailed history of the Hapkido arts and has confirmed this observation to my complete satisfaction. Since about 1957 there has been a hailstorm of controversey and competition as people---both Korean and non-Korean--- have worked to use Hapkido to garner standing, recognition, status and revenues for themselves while discounting what everyone else is doing. This is very different from, say, a more standardized MA such as SHOTOKAN Karate which is pretty well-defined.


That sounds like an interesting story. Perhaps that also addresses some of the confusion that I have in that it seems that I have read so many things where people are always claiming to have "the REAL" Hapkido because it came from this grandmaster or that grandmaster . . . or whoever.

What's the name of the book you mentioned? Is it a new title? Do you know where I could find it? Amazon, perhaps?

[shadow_priest_x]

I think you've pretty much answered your own question - Hapkido is a versatile art.

If I'm interpereting what Bruce said correctly, as well as going off the impression that I've gotten reading things from other posters, it seems almost as if there are multiple "Hapkidos" and the type of instruction you'd receive in one school might be significantly different from what you'd receive in another (especially in regard to grappling and, perhaps also, kicking and even weapons). It also seems as if there is a lot of in-fighting between the camps with everyone thinking that their version is legit while all others are some sort of abberation.

[Yohan]

If I'm interpereting what Bruce said correctly, as well as going off the impression that I've gotten reading things from other posters, it seems almost as if there are multiple "Hapkidos" and the type of instruction you'd receive in one school might be significantly different from what you'd receive in another (especially in regard to grappling and, perhaps also, kicking and even weapons). It also seems as if there is a lot of in-fighting between the camps with everyone thinking that their version is legit while all others are some sort of abberation.

I think you've pretty much nailed it.

[Bruce W Sims]

If I'm interpereting what Bruce said correctly, as well as going off the impression that I've gotten reading things from other posters, it seems almost as if there are multiple "Hapkidos" and the type of instruction you'd receive in one school might be significantly different from what you'd receive in another (especially in regard to grappling and, perhaps also, kicking and even weapons). It also seems as if there is a lot of in-fighting between the camps with everyone thinking that their version is legit while all others are some sort of abberation.

Sorry, Priest; I'm usually much better about that.

The book is absolutely "hot off the press" having just come into the country from printing in either Korea or China.

"History of Korea and Hapkido" by He-Young KIMM; HANDO Press, Baton Rouge, La. (No ISBN); 736pp.

Right now the book is so new that the only way you can get it is directly from the author. Addr:

H. Kimm
4816 Jamestown Avenue
Baton Rouge, La 70808
(225) 924-2837

I can say without fear of contradiction that Dr. Kimm is probably the most thoroughly endorsed scholar regarding things Hapkido, if for no other reason than he tends to keep things clear, concise and objective. I can't say that this sort of candor is always welcome by everyone but at least he can't be accused of skewing things one way or another as is the case with others.
As I mentioned earlier, its a bitter pill for me to swallow reading the "behind-the-scenes" stuff but I'm glad someone finally came forward and did it. My bitterness comes not from the fact that people were representing themselves as "the most legit". My own bitterness comes from the fact that legitimacy had little or nothing to do with things. People added and subtracted; mixed and matched and generally just dicked-around with what they knew and learned with an eye towards developing a product to match the market. THEN.... when they were ASKED about it... THATS when the lying started!!. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[BSR]

If I'm interpereting what Bruce said correctly, as well as going off the impression that I've gotten reading things from other posters, it seems almost as if there are multiple "Hapkidos" and the type of instruction you'd receive in one school might be significantly different from what you'd receive in another (especially in regard to grappling and, perhaps also, kicking and even weapons). It also seems as if there is a lot of in-fighting between the camps with everyone thinking that their version is legit while all others are some sort of abberation.

This is, of course, true. Although Hapkido is certainly not the only art that suffers from this kind of nonsense.

The best thing for you to do would simply be to visit any HKD schools in your area, see what the training is like, then decide whether it's what you're looking for.

[armanox]

I'd second getting Dr. Kimm's book. I've read excepts from it, a friend of mine called Dr Kimm to request the book to use in a class he'll be teaching come fall semester, and it's very informative from the parts I've read.

Also, to answer why it looks similar to juijistsu and aikido - It is my understanding that Choi Yong Sul studied Akijujitsu under Takeda Sokaku, as did Morihei Ueshiba, the creator of Aikido.

[Bruce W Sims]

(clip)

Also, to answer why it looks similar to juijistsu and aikido - It is my understanding that Choi Yong Sul studied Akijujitsu under Takeda Sokaku, as did Morihei Ueshiba, the creator of Aikido.

Yes, thats pretty much the "company line". What gets downplayed significantly is the matter of the many folks associated with the Hapkido arts who had background in Japanese arts and contributed that material without actually acknowleging the source. For instance, SUH Bok Sub traditionally held as CHOI Yong Sul's "first student" had a background in Judo and may have contributed significantly to the Hapkido curriculum in the early years of its formulation including the GUEP/DAN ranking system, chokes, throws and groundwork.

In like manner, MYONG Jae Nam, an identified officer with the Aikido organization was also a member of coalition that produced the DAE-HAN MIN-KUK HAPKIDO HYUB HOE (Republic of Korea Hapkido Assn.) in 1973. When the organization broke-up in 1984, one of the three organizations produced was the International Hapkido Federation. However, noone talks too much about how much Aikido material was adopted into the Koreantradition while that earlier union was active, such as various techniques, philosophy and execution.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[nj_howard]

It also seems as if there is a lot of in-fighting between the camps with everyone thinking that their version is legit while all others are some sort of abberation.
Some people overstate this vastly. Particularly if they have an axe to grind or an agenda to pursue.

Hapkido is a fragmented art. That's because Choi was not able to hold together his original students, several of whom went their separate ways. Once Ji Han Jae began teaching on his own, a whole new strand of the art began to develop under him and his senior students.

However, the fact that there are many different Hapkido organizations does not mean that they all fight among themselves.

Most of us have a live-and-let-live attitude toward kwans/organizations other than our own, and are happy to learn from each other. We train our way, you train your way... what's the problem? :)

As for Suh Bok Sub having contributed Judo techniques to Hapkido's curriculum, I'm unaware of any verifiable evidence of that. Choi learned a comprehensive system in Japan that undoubtedly was a form of classical Jujutsu that included aiki principles. Classical Jujutsu has defenses against many different garment grabs and chokes. The garment-grab defenses that Choi taught some of his direct students bear little resemblance to Judo techniques, but a lot of resemblance to classical Jujutsu techniques.

The same goes for throws and chokes. Both types of techniques are prevalent in classical Jujutsu systems. There was no need for Choi to borrow from Judo.

Finally, Choi always maintained that he taught faithfully what he had learned in Japan. And that certainly was not Judo.

[Bruce W Sims]

"....Most of us have a live-and-let-live attitude toward kwans/organizations other than our own, and are happy to learn from each other. We train our way, you train your way... what's the problem? ..."

The "problem" as you say, Howard, is that this is all "ear candy" and is tolerance of the most cosmetic and superficial kind. I have been in the offices and changing rooms and on the edges of the mat when 6th and 7th and 8th dans discuss people out on the mat and the teachers of those people. I know 80 y/o women who gossip and back-bite less than do these high-placed "leaders".

"As for Suh Bok Sub having contributed Judo techniques to Hapkido's curriculum, I'm unaware of any verifiable evidence of that. "

Well then lets take a look. Hapkido has a DAN/GUEP system of rank which did not exist in DRAJJ when Choi was suppose to have been learning it. JI didn't bring it in since he had no experience before training with CHOI, but did report that he was a 3rd Dan in HAPKIYUKWONSUL when he started his own group in 1957-1959. Where did that ranking come from? Further, I will agree that CHOI may not have had Judo-like throws and chokes in his original material but it is certainly there now. And since JI and KIM did not have Judo experience where did these throws and chokes come from. As you say they don't bear resemblance to DRAJJ?

This is the same round-n-round stuff that I have witnessed for years now.

[nj_howard]

"As for Suh Bok Sub having contributed Judo techniques to Hapkido's curriculum, I'm unaware of any verifiable evidence of that. "

Well then lets take a look. Hapkido has a DAN/GUEP system of rank which did not exist in DRAJJ when Choi was "suppose" to have been learning it.

That would be "supposed", Mr. scholar. :)

JI didn't bring it in since he had no experience before training with CHOI, but did report that he was a 3rd Dan in HAPKIYUKWONSUL when he started his own group in 1957-1959. Where did that ranking come from? Further, I will agree that CHOI may not have had Judo-like throws and chokes in his original material but it is certainly there now. And since JI and KIM did not have Judo experience where did these throws and chokes come from. As you say they don't bear resemblance to DRAJJ?

This is the same round-n-round stuff that I have witnessed for years now.
Can you read English?

I said that Choi did have throws, chokes and garment-grab defenses in the material he brought back from Japan.

Furthermore, I didn't mention Daito-ryu...

Please, read a little more carefully, learn to spell in English, and learn to use logic.

[Bruce W Sims]

Yes, Howard:

I can read and write in English. I understand I communicate in it very well.

And you, sir, -----believe it or not -----just made my point.... and exactly my point.

In the Hapkido community oppositional behavior is raised to an art form. Essentially, my post gave back to you pretty much what you said. Most times when this happens--- in the real world---- people smile at each other, chuckle a bit and agree that they are saying the same thing. In the Hapkido community people have a crying need NOT to agree with the other person for fear that they would then be perceived by others as having "lost" an arguement to a "more knowlegeable" or "better informed" individual. I have seen threads where people have started discussing one thing and got down to bickering over spelling, grammar, syntax, context and anything else, just so as to not be seen as having "lost". (Look at your own "dig" about "suppose/supposed". Did it make you feel good to be right or one-up? See what I mean?) Fact is, Howard, in the Hapkido community its not about knowing and learning; its about being right or being wrong--- being the same or being different. In the Hapkido community if people start agreeing, then its not seen as a "good" thing. Rather, people start scratching their chin and wondering "whats wrong with this picture?". KIM Yun Sang and LIM Hyun Soo teach very, very similar material but there is no way in hell they are ever going to agree that they do because then there would be two contenders for the top of a pyramid that, in their mind, only has room for one. And I could go down the list from teacher to teacher and its the same damn thing over and over again. Two generations of opportunists with nothing on their little minds except "whats in it for me".

You really, really need to read Dr. Kimm's book.

[American HKD]

KIM Yun Sang and LIM Hyun Soo teach very, very similar material but there is no way in hell they are ever going to agree that they do because then there would be two contenders for the top of a pyramid that, in their mind, only has room for one. And I could go down the list from teacher to teacher and its the same damn thing over and over again. Two generations of opportunists with nothing on their little minds except "whats in it for me".

You really, really need to read Dr. Kimm's book.

Bruce on a side bar Dr. Kimm has done the same thing in KMA as his own observations. He made himself top dog (Hanmudo), certainly Hanmudo made no new significant new contribution to KMA he just did a minor reshuffled of the same old deck with a new name IMO.

Using myself as an example I believe I'm making more real changes and more significant impact to benefit KMA then Dr. Kimm, however as a nobody so to speak it will make little impact at this point in time.

[Bruce W Sims]

Yes, yes. Believe me, Stuart, when I say that has not gone over my head. After all of that crap about how members of the Korean culture honor their elders and prize their culture, it was a very bitter pill to swallow when it became obvious that it was all just so much "cheerleader-speak".

[American HKD]

Yes, yes. Believe me, Stuart, when I say that has not gone over my head. After all of that crap about how members of the Korean culture honor their elders and prize their culture, it was a very bitter pill to swallow when it became obvious that it was all just so much "cheerleader-speak".

Now when I say I don't care about the Korean Culture in regards to the KMA you see what I mean.

[austinso]

Ethics is an interesting thing...alter the perspective just a little bit, and both you Bruce and more so Stuart could be accused of the same "lapses" as these early HKD practitioners you so readily condemn.

Austin

[American HKD]

Ethics is an interesting thing...alter the perspective just a little bit, and both you Bruce and more so Stuart could be accused of the same "lapses" as these early HKD practitioners you so readily condemn.

Austin

I think you're missing something Austin which is I don't speak one thing and do another. Bruce and myself have pointed out clearly that the Neo-confusian model is mainly talk not deed in HKD culture it's really a free for all which many people acted independantly contrary to it's model and the Korean culture.

You can't judge me or Bruce by these values because we're not Korean and didn't grow up with these values they don't apply in western culture quite the same way.
I also don't go around claiming to follow this Neo-confusian tradition 100% so my ethical balance is not disrupted by my philosphy in MA and cross training.

Bruce can speak for himself.

[Thomas]

On the topic...



From what I've been able to determine, Hapkido looks pretty cool. I like the idea of a TMA that combines both striking and grappling. There seems to be a confusion of information, though, and I'm not sure what the problem is.
Here's what I usually give as the "quick" answer...


What is Hapkido?


- 합기도- Hapkido (“way of coordinated energy”) is a Korean martial art derived from Japanese Daito-ryu aikijujutsu. Hapkido typically includes strikes, kicks, jointlocks, throws, falling, and weapons work, and is aimed at developing realistic fighting skills.

- Choi Yong-Sool (1904-1986) claimed to have trained for many years in Daito-ryu aikijutsu under Sokaku Minamoto Takeda (1860-1943). Choi is considered the founder of Hapkido and notable students of his include Suh Bok-Sup, Seo In-sun and Ji Han-jae. As Hapkido grew, various kwan (schools) formed, each of which taught the art a bit differently.


Fundamental Philosophy of Hapkido
(In GM In Sun Seo’s Words)

1. 유 Ryu - Flow
- Do not meet the force straight on. Disperse it and let it flow by.
- Fluid movement maximizes the transition between offense to defense and defense to offense. Manipulate the opponent's openings.
- Fluidity allows for the synthesis of external and internal energy. Learn to coordinate both forces.

2. 원 Won- Circle
- Centripetal, centrifugal, spinning forces are utilized for efficient self-defense techniques.
- Circular movements make it possible to use the opponent's strength against him. It also allows for offensive and defensive techniques to be executed simultaneously. The stronger the attacking force of the opponent, stronger the force of retaliation.
- The circle symbolizes the source of the universe and its limitlessness. In Hapkido the circle represents the comprehensiveness of the art, which includes linear, arcing, circular offensive and defensive techniques. It also reminds us that there can be no bounds in our martial arts training. Only through continual training and patience one can progress forward.

3.화 Wha - Harmony
- Harmony of the law of mind, ki, body that implies the foundation of martial arts.
- Harmonize with opponent's force and make that force your own.
- Harmonize the principles of martial arts to understand its true meaning. Never discontinue training in order to find the righteous path of man.
(Taken from GM In Sun Seo's site (http://www.kidohae.com/prin-fund.html) )


Philosophical Foundation
- Ryu, Won and Hwa principles
- Korean Cultural Focus – basic knowledge of Korean cultural norms such as bowing, wearing of the uniform, etiquette, etc.
- Level of Force knowledge and application
- Morals, ethics and expected conduct


Concrete Foundation
(Application of Philosophical Foundation)

- Danjeon Breathing (“Ki” development)
- Use of proper stances, lowering center, live hand, push/pull
- Footwork (circular and linear, use of footwork to apply leverage or escape)

Basic Techniques
- Strikes (variety of open and closed hand)
- Kicks (low targets)
- Breakfalls
- Basic Joint Locks
- Basic Throws and Sweeps

Application
- Wrist grabs (same side, cross side, 2 hands on 1, 2 hands on 2, front and rear attacks)
- Garment grabs (various parts of the body, front and rear)
- Other situational defenses (Sitting, lying prone, hair grabs, headlocks, handshake defenses, chokes, rear attacks, etc.)
- Some multiple attacker defenses

Defenses
- Defenses against Strikes (variety of open and closed hand)
- Defenses against Kicks
- Defenses/escapes against Basic Joint Locks
- Defenses/escapes against Basic Throws and Sweeps

Weapons Use
- Basic elements of attack and defenses with knife, stick, cane, staff or improvised weapon


Weapons Defense
(empty hand versus or weapon versus)

-Basic elements of defenses against knife, stick, cane, or staff
-Improvised weapon using empty hand or weapon

[Bruce W Sims]

Hi, Austin:

Honestly I'll have to chew on your post for a bit as I am not altogether sure how that works. But what I WILL say is that I still hold with Korean culture and was very pleased at how it was expressed during both my visits to Korea and to Australia. To my mind it was an expression of the KWAN in its most classic form.

The disappointment that I am expressing right now proceeds from the fact that not everyone follows this approach, and actually I probably could have dealt with THAT. What I won't deal with are people who preach about the noble aspects of Korean culture and then are revealed to have violated that same culture themselves. In my own experience, I have actually had people I have criticized for doing this come back and counter-charge me with the same thing rather than own their behavior. To my mind this only makes it worse.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Thomas]

On the topic...



Let me give you some examples. . .

1) I've had people describe Hapkido as: TKD - flashy kicks + throws and jointlocks. But then other people bitterly dispute this. Is this an inaccurate description? Specifically, is HKD striking similar to TKD? Are there flashy kicks in HKD?

Taekwondo Hoshinsool (self defense) is partially sourced from Hapkido in many cases so there is a big chance of seeing HKD in TKD schools. Granted some schools think that because they have (parts of) HKD in their curriculum that they can issue rank in HKD as well. Also, some systems (like Combat Hapkido) may be offered as an "add-on" for TKD schools to round out the self defense. So, there is some cross-pollination.

As for flashy kicks, some HKD has them and some don't. Even some of the most "conservative" HKD masters will show off the flying, split-leg, jump, double kicks (and they are to be seen in many books and videos). Others don't.

2) Some have described HKD grappling as being very similar to judo and others describe it as being very similar to Aikido. (I have also heard some say that HKD grappling came from aikido . . . while others say it came from jujutsu.) Then again . . . I have also heard some say that HKD grappling is NOTHING like judo! Well, which is it? I know that when I watched some "PRO Hapkido" videos on YouTube that not only did the throws look like Judo but the tournaments looked similar to MMA competitions. Not the same . . . but similar, i.e. punch, punch, kick, grab, throw, arm bar, tap.
Again. depends on the group. The HKD I studied in Korea actually had an added on component of Yudo (Judo). It was also an IHF school that had links to Aikido (cf. Hankido). The Combat Hapkido I study now (as an entire art, not just an add-on, although we use elements of it as an add-on to our TKD program) sources BJJ and similar "grappling" to build our ground survival program.

3) I have also heard that HKD is not a competitive art. And yet, I can find videos of competitions and hear of people frequently going to competitions. Are competitions common within Hapkido or are the exception rather than the norm?
You've seen the Pro-HKD items out there... with modification and rules it can be used. I don't think " a lot" of HKD schools do though.


Best advice I can give is to go and check out the local Hapkido schools and try them out. Hapkido schools should share the elements I detailed above but they also will differ and vary greatly depending on their lineage.

[shadow_priest_x]

Thomas:

Best reply so far! You addressed each of my points and gave a thorough explanation. It seems even more so now that Hapkido is, for lack of a better term, a "fractured" martial art and the type of instruction can vary significantly from one school to the next.

If you don't mind, explain a bit more to me about the "Combat Hapkido" thing. What's that all about?

[Thomas]

Thomas:

Best reply so far! You addressed each of my points and gave a thorough explanation. It seems even more so now that Hapkido is, for lack of a better term, a "fractured" martial art and the type of instruction can vary significantly from one school to the next.

Thanks. I don't think I'd use the term "fractured" personally. The "core" of Hapkido is the same - it's just that some groups add more techniques, some use less, and some do things a bit differently. However, yes, instructional quality and content can vary school to school.

If you don't mind, explain a bit more to me about the "Combat Hapkido" thing. What's that all about?
In a nutshell, Combat Hapkido is system based on the core elements of Hapkido, with certain material deemed "impractical" removed, and supplemented by adapted material from other arts. Combat Hapkido tends to be quite a "hot button" issue sometimes. Good place to learn more is the "official site" (here (http://www.dsihq.com/#home-7a1d3)) or the super long thread (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16727)here that covers the good, bad and ugly! If you still have questions, ask on that thread and you'll get more details!

[Bruce W Sims]

Thomas:

Best reply so far! You addressed each of my points and gave a thorough explanation. It seems even more so now that Hapkido is, for lack of a better term, a "fractured" martial art and the type of instruction can vary significantly from one school to the next.

If you don't mind, explain a bit more to me about the "Combat Hapkido" thing. What's that all about?

I guess I must have misunderstood the original question, Priest. Sorry about that.

If you were looking to compare one syllabus or curriculum of a Hapkido art with another, its a pretty easy thing to do. As you can see, Thomas (Morrison) is very well informed about Combat Hapkido. For myself, I am not a big fan of the ICHF but that has more to do with my having a "traditionalist" bent than anything else. As far as effectiveness, I tend to hold that how effective an art is resides in the dedication of the practitioner and not in the art.

Just for comparison, I belong to a Hapkido KWAN that still does forms. There are other Hapkido arts that use forms as part of their training including the HWARANGDO, KUKSULWON as well as their Hapkido precursors HWARANG Hapkido and KUKSUL Hapkido.

I can also say that we use a MU-DO or "martial way" approach in which that which is done without a weapon is the same biomechanics as used with a weapon. Though you would scarcely be expected to carry around a sword or staff with you in a modern community, there is still value in this. A weapon is an amplifier of intent, and in that way, if your unarmed practice has flaws the use of a weapon will amplify those as well so you can note them and correct them.

Lastly Traditionalists tend to work within the art to improve on its execution and applications. In this way, if there is something that we observe that will improve on what we do, we study that thing and work to understand how its principles will make our practice better.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Van Zandt]

Hapkido is an excellent and effective art in itself; don't think of it as "Ju Jitsu with TKD" or "Aikido with Judo". Hapkido is Hapkido and is all these other arts, and more.

[nj_howard]

KIM Yun Sang and LIM Hyun Soo teach very, very similar material but there is no way in hell they are ever going to agree that they do because then there would be two contenders for the top of a pyramid that, in their mind, only has room for one.
Show us the evidence for this claim.

Quote conversations you yourself have had with either of these men about what the other teaches, and about how each views the other. Better yet, show us reliable published material that supports your claim. Until you do, your premise will be taken for the distorted conjecture that it is.

Also, why don't you tell us exactly how much time you yourself have spent on the mat with Lim Hyun Soo and/or any of his direct students?

Apparently, you have no compunction about tarnishing the reputations of two of the very few men to earn 9th dans directly from Choi Yong Sul in one swipe. But that's ok... because, fortunately, none of us who knows even a bit about these things takes your rantings seriously.

[Bruce W Sims]

Yeah.... here we go again..... same old "Hapkido bickering....

Lim's CD has his material. And I have been to Kim's school. Not being a novice I can look at the two curriculums and see the similarities and differences. Its the same product but in different cans with different labels.

Are there slight variances? Yep. Just like every other Hapkido art.

And of course you will root for YOUR favorite teacher.... just like every other Hapkido practitioner in every other art. Big deal.

And as far as "tarnishing anything", I was quite sure that after years on these forums "tarnishing", back-biting, and undercutting was the mother's milk of Hapkido arts.
I mean thats the whole reason that you responded at all, right? And thats the reason that you word things as you do, right? Its not about informing, or adding to the body of knowlege. Its about being spiteful and mean-spirited. Which is why ocassions like this are the only time one hears from you, Howard. Funny thing is, that none of Kim's students ever conduct themselves in such a manner. If you are what Lim produces and I were a person looking for a teacher, I sure wouldn't want much to do with you folks.

BTW: Its a real funny thing about my "rants". Its amazing to me how many people contact me OFF-line and congratulate me for saying what they WISH they could say but fear public reprisals from people such as youself. I can't say I blame them.

[Hyung]

ha!!! Hapkido is then, like christianity.... everyone tracing back to the original Jesus Christ teachings, some churches with saints, others with more important characters as Virgin Mary, and every one of them with different interpretations of the bible. Sounds very funny for me..... lol.

[Bruce W Sims]

ha!!! Hapkido is then, like christianity.... everyone tracing back to the original Jesus Christ teachings, some churches with saints, others with more important characters as Virgin Mary, and every one of them with different interpretations of the bible. Sounds very funny for me..... lol.

Actually, Hyung, you are not far from right!!!

The fact is that in discussions like this the truth about Hapkido arts has little to do with fact and logic and a whole lot more to do with belief and faith.

People root for the leader or teacher that they have Faith in. Certainly there is a veneer of knowlege but the actually conclusions are made based on faith and belief and that makes them Emotion-based.

In this case Howard, as with so many Hapkido advocates is speaking in defense of a leader he has chosen to follow-- LIM Hyun Soo. This plays out as a function of maketing and protecting ones "turf" and not as any one particular difference in this discipline versus that discipline. Again, this is not a matter of fact but one of faith and emotion.

The person who originated this thread wanted to know the "honest, low-down" concerning Hapkido. The "honest, low-down" concerning Hapkido is that there are a lot of little ponds presided over by big fish who want to extend the limits of their ponds. Plain and simple. Since this can be done only so far by raising one's self UP, the typical Hapkido tactic is to pull someone else down. Howard is but a small example of the premise.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[austinso]

And this is precisely what I meant Bruce...

By characterizing all other HKD masters as "flawed", despite their well-known skill, ability and repute, and in spite of whatever character issues they may have (which are typically blown out of proportion by the students of these masters), you seek to place yourself as the "honest to goodness HKD man free from all faults and kwans (TM)", and essentially market yourself in that capacity, despite having a fraction of their abilities.

HKD is "reconstructionist"? What is it that you have done and that you teach that is not reconstructionist?

HKD people piss on each other ponds? What is it that you do when you piss on the entire HKD community?

HKD is about marketing half-truths? What is it that you do or teach that is "true" to HKD, except what *you* and *only* you think is HKD?

Don't play the gomer-pyle "I'm just an innocent practictioner that loves my art and is offended and I mean offended about the goings on within HKD" act about this.

You guys play this card up as a self-marketing tool for your benefit and your benefit only.

Austin

[Chris from CT]

Lim's CD has his material. And I have been to Kim's school. Not being a novice I can look at the two curriculums and see the similarities and differences. Its the same product but in different cans with different labels.

To look at the video only, I can understand how you may say that, but without knowing what GM Lim is discussing during the video there is a lot missed. As all of us did, I came from a different lineage prior to getting into the Jung Ki Kwan. When watching the JKK techniques I thought the same thing, "same product but in different cans with different labels," but when working the techniques and actually discussing them with GM Lim and the other Korean and American Jung Ki Kwan Masters, I saw and felt something very different.

We all know you can't learn Hapkido from a book or a video, but even if you have a background in Hapkido things are easily taken out of context or even missed because of our own biases and filters. This can be case with anyone's product especially if it is in another language we are not fluent in.

I would definitely be interested in seeing and feeling GM Kim's technique/style. I hope to one day be able to do that then I would be able to have a more intelligent conversation about both styles.



And of course you will root for YOUR favorite teacher.... just like every other Hapkido practitioner in every other art.

Agreed



If you are what Lim produces and I were a person looking for a teacher, I sure wouldn't want much to do with you folks.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there, Bruce. Sometimes, no matter what the message is, the messenger has to get shot. :)

I know for myself, there are certain people I just don't get along with and everything that comes out of their mouth sounds a bit sour to me. Be it either I don't agree because of their ignorance/arrogance or if I do, it sounds sarcastic or like I'm being baited. Either way, the message never really gets across, no matter how well intentioned. "It is what it is" and this happens all the time for many of us.

I have to say that Howard is a downright good guy and even if my example above is the case, I am still proud to call him "Brother."

[Bruce W Sims]

And this is precisely what I meant Bruce...

By characterizing all other HKD masters as "flawed", despite their well-known skill, ability and repute, and in spite of whatever character issues they may have (which are typically blown out of proportion by the students of these masters), you seek to place yourself as the "honest to goodness HKD man free from all faults and kwans (TM)", and essentially market yourself in that capacity, despite having a fraction of their abilities.

HKD is "reconstructionist"? What is it that you have done and that you teach that is not reconstructionist?

HKD people piss on each other ponds? What is it that you do when you piss on the entire HKD community?

HKD is about marketing half-truths? What is it that you do or teach that is "true" to HKD, except what *you* and *only* you think is HKD?

Don't play the gomer-pyle "I'm just an innocent practictioner that loves my art and is offended and I mean offended about the goings on within HKD" act about this.

You guys play this card up as a self-marketing tool for your benefit and your benefit only.

Austin

And I agree with everything you have written, Austin, in principle if nothing else. The person who started this thread wanted the "honest low-down" about Hapkido and I for one would like to see him get it sans the usual marketing stuff. Speaking for myself, I can own that I am in a pretty bad place right now, having had Dr. Kimm's recent history all but confirm my darkest suspicions about the Hapkido arts, their development and the personalities involved. Personally, I have begun to distance myself from the mainstream Hapkido community as I am genuinely fed-up with the cyclical bickering and finger-pointing and one-ups-manship. For instance, if you read Chris' post and compare it to Howard's the tenor is very obviously different. My own experience is that the Hapkido community has a lot more "Howard-s" than it does "Chris-s", as it were.

As far as you other comment about whether what I do is any better or worse or just the same... I just plain don't know what to tell you about that. For quite some time I had hoped to encourage people to take a more informed, critical and invetigatory approach to the Hapkido arts. I feel that the response I received over the years was essentially "not interested". Where I am at right now is to simply move ahead the best I can on my own. What I have found is that since taking this approach, I have connected with a great number of like-minded people who have also turned-away from the mainstream and are pursuing MA scholarship among themselves. It has been very rewarding for me. Thats about all I can say about that.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Bruce W Sims]

(clip)

I know for myself, there are certain people I just don't get along with and everything that comes out of their mouth sounds a bit sour to me. Be it either I don't agree because of their ignorance/arrogance or if I do, it sounds sarcastic or like I'm being baited. Either way, the message never really gets across, no matter how well intentioned. "It is what it is" and this happens all the time for many of us.

I have to say that Howard is a downright good guy and even if my example above is the case, I am still proud to call him "Brother."

I agree with all of your observations, Chris and my hope is to give the thread starter some sound information about the Hapkido arts. I have absolutely no doubt that in providing information to a non-Hapkido MA practitioner, we would run into the very same conundrum that explaining the Karate community would produce. In that case, Karate has both contact and non-contact, sport and combat, "soft style" and "hard style", linear and circular etc etc. I think Hapkido has come to the same place in this respect. Further, there are Hapkido folks who argue for being closer to CHOI just as there are Karate people who argue for being closer to Funakoshi. There are Hapkido people who argue for a MU-DO approach to the curriculum just as there are Karate people who argue for inclusion of KOBUDO.

For myself, where I see us going astray is in the recurring matter of "turf" and the singular view that one person's art or practice is somehow intrinsically "purer" or "authentic" over another. In my experience with KIM Yun Sang as compared to LIM Hyun Soo I found no difference in the execution of the technique but only in the structure of the curriculum with the inclusion of one particular technique or the exclusion of another. And,though I found significant difference between KIM Yun Sang and JI Han Jae, in turn, I found little difference between JI and my own teacher, Myung, or with CHANG Gedo. And while I found significant difference between KIM Yun Sang's material and Myung's as compared to SUH In Hyuk, by comparing Suh to LEE Joo Bang, once again there is little significant difference.

Now...... would the practitioners of each individual art say that THEIR art IS, in truth, VERY DIFFERENT from everyone else I have mentioned? Certainly; I have no doubt! But my own experience suggests, once again that this has a lot more to do with representation and marketing than actually concrete differences, thats all.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Hyung]

hey... it is ridiculous.
If you agree with anyone (or with many of you)... you are "drinking the Kool-aid here".
If you disagree, then you are offensive, arrogant or ignorant.
These are bizantine discussions. With no ending.
Honest opinions, with humility, is what makes everyone of us learn something new in a forum... after all, this is the objective in here, huh?

[American HKD]

......For myself, where I see us going astray is in the recurring matter of "turf" and the singular view that one person's art or practice is somehow intrinsically "purer" or "authentic" over another. In my experience with KIM Yun Sang as compared to LIM Hyun Soo I found no difference in the execution of the technique but only in the structure of the curriculum with the inclusion of one particular technique or the exclusion of another. And,though I found significant difference between KIM Yun Sang and JI Han Jae, in turn, I found little difference between JI and my own teacher, Myung, or with CHANG Gedo. And while I found significant difference between KIM Yun Sang's material and Myung's as compared to SUH In Hyuk, by comparing Suh to LEE Joo Bang, once again there is little significant difference......

Bruce,

From my experience with GM Ji and JKK is Ji material is much closer than you might think. I confirmed some of this with Gm Lim last summer and with several practices with Master Mike D and the JKK.

You have not spent any serious time with GM Ji to actually make any legit comparison.

I can tell it takes some experience to see the details from GM Ji but it's there. Most gup and even lower Dan students will not be aware enough get it. Watching his movements closely and asking the right questions are the key.

He rarely spoon feeds you all the details, ones needs to make an effort and ask questions. I might add serious practice reveals much!

[Bruce W Sims]

Yes, thats often the case, Hyung, and it gets to be a real "no-win" situation a lot of time. Fact is, though, this particular thread has been one of the more civilized exchanges I have witnessed. At least half of the battle is getting people to exchange information without feeling like they are "giving-in" or being "dominated" by the other guy. Its often the same when one goes to a Hapkido event. A common dynamic is to perform a technique and have someone else "do a favor" and tell you why your execution is flawed and his execution is better. Another common exchange is to start to talk about something like, forms, or weapons or some other variable and run face-first into a lot of attitude along the lines of "real Hapkido doesn't have (fill in the blank)". With so many varied groups, you can expect that there are a lot of cliques. Goes with the territory, I guess.

Edit: Thanks just the same but Ji has nothing I need.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Van Zandt]

Certainly a lot of people passionate about HKD in here! :)

[Bruce W Sims]

Certainly a lot of people passionate about HKD in here! :)

Yes, indeed! I think Hapkido people are among some of the most passionate practitioners you will find. Where I think things go awry is when that passion is directed more along the lines of "....and let me tell why what I do is the right way.....best way..... only way...etc etc". With so many communication options available including YOU TUBE, these forums, e-mail, DVD/VCD-s and so forth we could be doing MUCH more to communicate rather than deprecate. There is still that matter of "protecting turf" and I am not sure how to get around that. I think that may become a matter of individuals making a personal decision not to take this approach. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[nj_howard]

In this case Howard, as with so many Hapkido advocates is speaking in defense of a leader he has chosen to follow-- LIM Hyun Soo. This plays out as a function of maketing and protecting ones "turf" and not as any one particular difference in this discipline versus that discipline. Again, this is not a matter of fact but one of faith and emotion.
It's sad, but not surprising, to see that your tactic of diverting the logical stream of a discussion to an unrelated and unsubstantiated subject has not changed over time.

I quoted a part of one of your posts in which you said very clearly that Lim and Kim cannot acknowledge each other's teachings because they are competing for the top spot in some pecking order that you have created in your own mind. I then asked you to show us evidence for this claim. In order to substantiate your claim, you would need quotes from both men that support your position. In other words, you need to produce evidence that:

- Lim is on record as saying that he is at the "top of the pyramid" and has a superior claim to Kim's to that position.

- Kim is on record as saying that he is at the "top of the pyramid" and has a superior claim to Lim's to that position.

Do you have that evidence, or not? If you do, produce it. If you don't, then we can all see your claim for exactly what it is, and draw appropriate conclusions.

Your words speak for themselves. I imagine that others reading them can see the same thing I do.

Now, I'll sit back and wait for your reply, which, no doubt, will dodge my second request for evidence to support your claim in favor of yet another bunch of screed about all of the problems you perceive in the "Hapkido community" and my blind, emotion-driven support of a master who is only interested in building a commercial enterprise. And, once again, we'll be able to draw appropriate conclusions.

Hi Chris, hope you're well... thanks for your comments.

[Bruce W Sims]

Dear Folks:

I have just posted the third YMK Hapkido Hyung - - "Nae Ki Hyung Sae.

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/2968570/8514658

Along with No. 3, I have also posted previously Nos. 1 and 2.

Nos 4 & 5 are down the road a bit; probably August or so.

The use of forms is varied across the Hapkido arts with a heavier use found on the more Chinese-influenced side of the house. The YON MU KWAN Hapkido forms were organized by MYUNG Kwang Sik who had a strong background in KONG SOO DO (now known as TANG SOO DO) and the influence from the Okinawan contributions, through Japan, are readily seen in these forms. Enjoy.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Bruce W Sims]

It's sad, but not surprising, to see that your tactic of diverting the logical stream of a discussion to an unrelated and unsubstantiated subject has not changed over time.

I quoted a part of one of your posts in which you said very clearly that Lim and Kim cannot acknowledge each other's teachings because they are competing for the top spot in some pecking order that you have created in your own mind. I then asked you to show us evidence for this claim. In order to substantiate your claim, you would need quotes from both men that support your position. In other words, you need to produce evidence that:

- Lim is on record as saying that he is at the "top of the pyramid" and has a superior claim to Kim's to that position.

- Kim is on record as saying that he is at the "top of the pyramid" and has a superior claim to Lim's to that position.

Do you have that evidence, or not? If you do, produce it. If you don't, then we can all see your claim for exactly what it is, and draw appropriate conclusions.

Your words speak for themselves. I imagine that others reading them can see the same thing I do.

Now, I'll sit back and wait for your reply, which, no doubt, will dodge my second request for evidence to support your claim in favor of yet another bunch of screed about all of the problems you perceive in the "Hapkido community" and my blind, emotion-driven support of a master who is only interested in building a commercial enterprise. And, once again, we'll be able to draw appropriate conclusions.

Hi Chris, hope you're well... thanks for your comments.

There is nothing to bicker about, Howard.

Kim does not have to say anything since he is already sitting "at the top of the pyramid" from an organizational POV. Lim speaks loudly by not acknowleging this and working to further his own organization rather than submitting to the authority of another. And if I pursue this exchange with you any further this thread will deteriorate into yet another episode of bickering over who chooses to believe what about the Hapkido community. You have your hero, and I am not finding fault with you for your choice, whats the problem other than the fact that you have personal issues with me?

Kim has the authority in writing, and Lim has 6 years of "secret training". Fine. You want to go with "logic"? Its logical that if one is documented to hold an office, as we say here in the States,"possession is 9/10ths of the Law", yes? What do you want to do now; argue about authenticity of the documents? Thats the next step in this chain, right? Fact is Howard, that you choose not to believe something and choose to believe something else. This has nothing to do with facts or logic or any of the rest of that embroiderie. Its about you having personal issues with me and using a public venue to vent them. Personally, I am surprised that the Mods haven't stepped in, but maybe in your own way you are showing the World what the REAL Hapkido mentality is about.
Great.
Have a nice Life. The last word is yours. I don't do this anymore.

Regards.

[Chris from CT]

There is nothing to bicker about, Howard.

Kim does not have to say anything since he is already sitting "at the top of the pyramid" from an organizational POV. Lim speaks loudly by not acknowleging this and working to further his own organization rather than submitting to the authority of another.

To be honest, how many others have acknowledged this?

One of the issues that I feel people have a hard time with is that this authority came from Doju Choi's family and not from those who spent time in Hapkido.

Using an example for those who are not familiar with this topic, this is how I understand it...

A medical organization was formed whose goal was the development and advancement of medical procedure and technique. Many talented and devoted doctors took part in training and development over the years, but one unfortunate day the founder of the organization dies. Who has the right to pass on the leadership role? The family or those with years of knowledge of the field and it's development?


Kim has the authority in writing, and Lim has 6 years of "secret training".

No secret about it. We know at least 10 years he spent with Doju Choi (1976-1986 Doju Choi closes his dojang and teaches out of Jung Ki Kwan until his untimely death) and this does not take into account the time GM Lim spent with Doju Choi after leaving the dojang of GM KIM Young-jae.

[Bruce W Sims]

"....To be honest, how many others have acknowledged this?

One of the issues that I feel people have a hard time with is that this authority came from Doju Choi's family and not from those who spent time in Hapkido.

Using an example for those who are not familiar with this topic, this is how I understand it...

....."

And that, Chris, is Exactly my point. Who IS going to acknowlege any of this? This bickering goes round and round in circles. No actual information is given and no conclusions are ever
finalized. And no sooner is it done on one Forum then its starts all over again on another forum!

In his recent book, Dr. Kimm (intentionally or not) made it abundantly clear that the history of Hapkido is one long "quarrel". By the time I was done with that book I was probably the most angry and bitter I had been for a long time! And I don't think it would have affected me so strongly except that the whole time this has been going on, all the participants (leaders) have been presenting that they are actually coming out of some far higher and more noble place. :bang:

Now, lets take a look at the Matter of KIM Yun Sang for a minute.

Yes--- I agree completely.... in the best of all possible worlds it would have been nice if Hapkido people had been involved in designating a successor to Choi's son. I am in agreement. Typical of circumstances, it was the family---specifically Choi's daughter-in-law who took steps. Over in Japan during the succession in the DRAJJ, things ran afoul almost for exactly the same reason (except in that case the challenger--- Takeda's Daughter-- failed to make her case). So what now? How long is life suppose to be on hold before we get closure on this and start making the Hapkido community more cohesive?
My own opinion is that it is NOT going to happen and the reason it is not going to happen is that secretly leaders LIKE things busted-up into little fiefdoms with each leader the prince over his own domain.

But, ya know what REALLY gets my undies in a knot? The fact that people will spend weeks and even months bickering about this crap, and you can't get them to have an intelligent discussion that might move the arts ahead some. I made overtures about having such discussions down at Jackson, Miss this last time and was firmly rebuffed and bounced off of Dennis McHenry's website!! I raised similar issues over on DOJANG DIGEST and got the same treatment!! Look at the thread you started a couple of days ago..... how many people have contributed there? And this is not some new phenomenon--- to my knowlege this pattern has gone on for at least 7 years that I know of.

I don't pretend that I can stop others from perpetuating old behaviors which is why Howard's getting nothing from me. I'm done with this crappy sniping back and forth.

(Here rant ends; cold towel applied to back of neck; 12 oz. P.O.)

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[American HKD]

I agree with Chris the Family of Choi have no authority to appoint a Doju except in their own minds.

It's also clear the GM Kim was not ever accepted by his peers that says a lot IMO.

Next GM Kim doesn't have a lot of training history with Choi he was a once a month part time student for 10 years (page 335) Dr. Kimm's new book.

It's very funny to me how in this country people tell of the great masters with years and years of training under one master, when in fact it's very far from the truth in many many many cases.

[Bruce W Sims]

I agree with Chris the Family of Choi have no authority to appoint a Doju except in their own minds.

It's also clear the GM Kim was not ever accepted by his peers that says a lot IMO.

Next GM Kim doesn't have a lot of training history with Choi he was a once a month part time student for 10 years (page 335) Dr. Kimm's new book.

It's very funny to me how in this country people tell of the great masters with years and years of training under one master, when in fact it's very far from the truth in many many many cases.

Stuart, I don't know how to make this any clearer. I just don't.

When CHOI Yong Sul himself was alive, HE couldn't keep these people together!!! When he died, there were at least 6 major Hapkido arts or organizations and gawd-knows how many tiny ones. And we are talking about the guy who is generally identified as the start of this mess. Now if the guy who supposedly STARTED all of this could not get people to agree and stick together with the full weight of one of the most Confucian cultures on the face of the Earth behind him, what the hell hope do WE have!?!

[dortiz]

You have the hope of your training. Train to perfect what you have. If you want more and want to teach than train to impart as you were shown. In that purity you have hope.
We cant change the politics of people. KMAs, Church, Government but that does not mean that great and beautiful things don't exist within these follies.
Regardless of the arguing about who did what each of these guys gets on the mats and teaches. In these moments of training its all moot.
Thats the duality of this mess. Someone trains under X and experiences that moment then gets caught up in we are the best. Crapola. We are as good as our technique, training or ability to teach and understand it.
The best we can do is train harder, teach more and try to set better examples.

[American HKD]

Bruce I agree with you and have been well aware of this for many years, but it still doesn't add any weight to the fact that GM Kim was not appointed Doju by Choi Yong Sul.

I'm also wondering how you feel about the fact that all this training for X years BS is not really a true litmus test for knowledge and skill as I've been saying for years and now.

Dr. Kimm lays out many peoples training times with Choi and others and it's not very impressive based on todays so called standards and TIG.

[nj_howard]

...Lim has 6 years of "secret training".

More unsubstantiated nonsense.

Show us where GM Lim claims to have had six years of "secret training".

The last word is yours.

As it happens, there's no need for me to add anything of my own. Rather, I'll just quote what another member wrote earlier in another thread. I can tell you from personal experience that he speaks for many of us - far more of us than you will ever acknowledge. You see, I'm far from alone.

Bruce, I've trained TKMA for 20 years in systems you've never even heard of. I am tired of your illogical, passive aggresive rants and your blatant disrespect for those who disagree with you. You were run off of Warrior Scholar for disrespect. You were run off of Bullshido because no one bought into your BS, and your inability to stay the course and on topic in a logical discussion. You are incapable of having a dialogue with someone who disagrees with you without resorting to ad hom & fallacious attacks.

You are a part of the problem in TKMA. You do not speak for Hapgido. You do not speak for the Korean martial arts. Lose your attitude and learn that there are others who are just as knowledgable about KMA, if not moreso than you. And many of us disagree with you.

[Bruce W Sims]

Bruce I agree with you and have been well aware of this for many years, but it still doesn't add any weight to the fact that GM Kim was not appointed Doju by Choi Yong Sul.

I'm also wondering how you feel about the fact that all this training for X years BS is not really a true litmus test for knowledge and skill as I've been saying for years and now.

Dr. Kimm lays out many peoples training times with Choi and others and it's not very impressive based on todays so called standards and TIG.

Well..... let me put this another way, Stuart.

If---- If a person was identified as being THE inheritor of the CHOI YONG SUL tradition, would you---Stuart---- drop what you are doing and join his merry band? What I am saying is that if by some magic there was one person identified as the head of Hapkido do you really think that all of the folks in all of the organizations that exist right now would drop what they are doing and follow him?

Do you honestly think that the SIN MU, KIDOHAE, KHF, WHF, IHF, WKA, etc etc would all stop doing what they are doing and fall into line. Hell, no!! Because its about each group cheering on and rallying-around their identified hero. Its not about who has THE honest-to-gawd authority regarding Hapkido. Its about folks who are fighting for the sole sake of fighting and arguing for the sole purpose of arguing.

[American HKD]

No I wouldn't drop everything and run and the HKD arts is too broad for that at this point, but I do believe such a person could be a great resource for all of the HKD arts as a mentor.

Another words if I wanted to learn some aspects of Hapki Yu Sul from GM Kim but had certain questions, etc... would he want to make himself available as the source to help all the HKD Arts equally.

I see this as the role of a modern Doju v.s a HKD dictator who says it's my way or the highway.

I felt very fortunate to be able to discuss tech with GM Lim and according to Mike D that was indeed very rare but open opportunities to learn from such people regardless of affiliation is very precious should be made available.

This type of behavior might be what the HKD arts need to bring people together.

[Bruce W Sims]

No I wouldn't drop everything and run and the HKD arts is too broad for that at this point, but I do believe such a person could be a great resource for all of the HKD arts as a mentor.

Another words if I wanted to learn some aspects of Hapki Yu Sul from GM Kim but had certain questions, etc... would he want to make himself available as the source to help all the HKD Arts equally.

I see this as the role of a modern Doju v.s a HKD dictator who says it's my way or the highway.

I felt very fortunate to be able to discuss tech with GM Lim and according to Mike D that was indeed very rare but open opportunities to learn from such people regardless of affiliation is very precious should be made available.

This type of behavior might be what the HKD arts need to bring people together.

Then, I submit in all possible candor, that these discussions are now, and have been, a "fool's errand". Despite the fact that people dangle the possibility of reconciling differences, the honest truth is that noone really wants differences reconciled, and that if differences WERE reconciled NOONE would act on that reconciliation so as to bring Hapkido under a single authority. In other words--- it is as I have been saying all along. To wit:

People WANT the schizmatic nature of the Hapkido arts. They WANT it this way and they LIKE it this way. And if it were possible to have it this way or NOT have it this way, people would vote for keeping things divided-up and conflictual.

[American HKD]

You asked a question I gave you an honest answer.

A true Doju would have a lot to offer and I would like to drink from the water, however I have no desire to follow blindly in the confucian model if some do it's ok with me.

I also believe what B. Lee says "take what useful etc...."

IMO Choi's HKD is somewhat out dated material, Ji's somewhat more progressive, but the evolution should serve us not the other way around.

Bottom Line is it's not a fool errand to learn what someone has to offer and complete unity should not be a requirement it's too late IMO.

[Bruce W Sims]

You asked a question I gave you an honest answer.

A true Doju would have a lot to offer and I would like to drink from the water, however I have no desire to follow blindly in the confucian model if some do it's ok with me.

I also believe what B. Lee says "take what useful etc...."

IMO Choi's HKD is somewhat out dated material, Ji's somewhat more progressive, but the evolution should serve us not the other way around.

Bottom Line is it's not a fool errand to learn what someone has to offer and complete unity should not be a requirement it's too late IMO.

I think you are missing my point, Stuart. You are talking about the blessings to be had and I am talking about the extant nature of the Hapkido community.

What I have noticed is that quarrels about some aspect of Hapkido, or its leadership, seem to carry the implicit message that if a disagreement could be reconciled, a split between practitioners could be closed and those players and their practice reconciled. The truth is that this is not the case. The truth is that even if differences COULD be reconciled, practitioners would continue on their merry way, as before, regardless.

So whats the point of all of this mindless bickering other than that people like to do it, yes?

[Alain]

I read through the posts and agree that this topic stirs things up at times. Not sure why, but it does.

I just returned from Korea, where I was been training with my hapkido instructors here. With that, I'll share a little of what I believe hapkido to be.

It is a Korean art that has roots that include Japanese Aiki Jujitsu. It is sometimes argued as to the relationship between Choi Young Sul and Takeda in Japan, but it is obvious that Choi brought back a lot of Aiki Jujitsu to Korea. The art then had a lot of kicking added to it, as the Korean arts are known for kicking.

The art has evolved over the years and it will continue to evolve. My instructors here just told me that I must continue to train and improve techniques to make them faster, make them hurt the opponent more, make them more effecient, etc. My instructors teach techniques today different than they did 10 plus years ago. I remember what they were teaching white belts back in 96, and it is different than they are teaching white belts today.

I refer to instructors in the plural because I originally studied in Kwanjangnim Kim Young Jong's school, and Lee Jun Kyu was his Saboem. Kim Hyun was one of the top students there as well. Now, Lee Jun Kyu has his own school, and Kim Hyun has his own school too. So I train at the different places. However, Lee Jun Kyu is my primary instructor. (Kim Young Jong is not teaching HKD right now, he is busy with his chiropractic practice and teaches Ki Gong classes which I used to study under him as well.)

Anyway, there are a lot of politics involved in HKD like there are in many of the arts. My first 2 dan levels were under the Korea Hapkido Federation, which is one of the biggest federations for HKD. Then my instructors changed organizations, so my 3rd dan was from a different organization. They are now under a different organization, so my 4th dan will be different too. I did not change federations, my instructors did. I could care less about what federation I have a certificate from, I care about my instructors and the relationship I have with them. That's all that matters. I know they are very good men, have taught me so much, and that I will continue to learn from them and respect them for the rest of my life.

So what is hapkido? It is a martial art that contains all of the following: Breathing, striking, kicking, forms, joint locks, throws, knife defenses, gun disarms, weapons such as short stick, middle stick, staff, nunchaku to use Japanese term because more people know that term, cane, belt, fan, and sword.

Some HKD schools out there do not kick much. I personally, due to knee surgeries and back surgery, do not kick anywhere near what my Korean instructors can. However, my instructors can kick with the best of them. HKD has some of the best kicking you will see. It is not because they also do TKD. Go to Korea and watch some of the HKD masters, who only do HKD, and you will see some fantastic kicking, high, low ,spinning, jumping, etc. Some HKD schools do not do forms. My schools do. I teach forms because I learned them from my instructors so I continue to practice them and teach them as well.

One thing you will find in all HKD schools is the joint locks. These are some of my favorite techniques of HKD. However, HKD is much more than locks. Unfortunately, many places that do TKD will say, oh yeah, we do HKD too. But they just do a few HKD techniques, not the entire HKD curriculum. The defenses, which include locks and throws, include techniques against all sorts of grabs, punch attacks, kick attacks, weapon attacks, etc.

Hapkido is also an art that you find the principles of harmony, water, and circles taught. Circles are everywhere in HKD and very important. Blending with your opponent and using his force against him is also important (harmony). The flowing and different aspects of water are also found in many places. One of the things I was working on just yesterday was the concept of taking static techniques such as a person grabs you, and then do those techniques while moving. You must learn to flow and to harmonize with your opponent's energy. Basic technique would be for your opponent to grab your shoulder, then you advance to him grabbing shoulder and pushing, then grabbing and pulling. You must be able to blend with the movement and perform the techniques no matter what. You must also make each technique the most effecient that it can be making sure to maximize your strengths and minimize your opponent's strengths and exploit his weaknesses.

In HKD you will find very flashy show techniques and demonstrations that are not as practical but look cool. You will also find very practical and effecient techniques that work. You will also find people at higher levels that will do things to people that some might think won't work, but do. :-)

HKD is a very comprehensive art. There is much to it. Unfortunately, in some places some of this has been lost. Some people think HKD is just a couple of joint locks added to TKD. Or some think HKD is just a blend of TKD and Aikido. As I mentioned earlier, it is also evolving. Things change. This last trip to Korea I learned some cool little things to make certain techniques better. One was a simple shoulder roll to increase the effectiveness of an arm bar. When it was shown to me, I went, wow - cool... Then over dinner in Seoul I shared this with a 5th dan from the KHF and it was new to him too. We are all learning and growing all the time. John and I talked a lot that night about how HKD is growing and how the art is individualized by the different people practicing and teaching it. My HKD is different from his, because we have different instructors and backgrounds. My HKD has incorporated lessons learned from non-HKK instructors I have had and real life experiences with fighting and violence. And you know what? That's a good thing. That is what is great about HKD. It can be different, but still with the same core principlese and such. The fighting and bickering about who or what is better is a waste of time.

As I said, besides being a comprehensive art, it is also an art that continues to change and evolve. last week with Kim Hyun, we did a little ground work that was more BJJ. He was saying how JJ went from Japan to Brazil and how they developed that into a good ground system and that it was important to know some of that too. HKD is a more stand up system, with the philosophy that you should stay off the ground, and many of the basic ground techniques are just how to get off the ground. However, Kim Hyun has practiced more ground stuff from BJJ so he can be a more complete martial artist and instructor. He said it was important to increase all of your martial art skills. I agree with him. That's why I sometimes do groundwork that I have learned from other sources in my HKD classes. I tell my students, I learned this from Mike Swain at the seminar last week, or from whatever source I learn it from, but after a while it all blends into MY Warrior Arts, and eventually into MY teachings. I was a sniper instructor for the U.S. Army, so that is part of MY Warrior Arts as well. And while I don't bring a sniper system to my HKD classes, it is part of me, and still influences my overall training and teaching.

Another thing that my instructors stressed was that it was important to think right, speak right, and have a good heart. They said that was one of the most important things, and that students watch instructors, so it was important to act right at all times. Teaching is very important. They were glad to hear that I wrote an article for Black Belt on Character. (And I recently sent them another article on Character that I'm still waiting to hear about)

Someone posted earlier that what is important is what you do on the mat and how you train. That is right. I have Dr. Kimm's new book too. I have only read a bit of it, since it came right before I left for Korea, and I didn't take it with me. (Too big!) I do plan on reading it very soon, and I actually just ordered another copy for one of my students. We can both read and discuss things about it. But while history is important, for me the practical aspects, the training, and the striving to make things better, faster, more efficient is the most enjoyable and important part. I'm not as concerned as much with who's who as I am with the relationships with my instructors and students, and how can I make myself a better martial artist and a better instructor. What skills can I develop, and what skills can I pass on? That is what I focus on. The warrior lifestyle is a part of me, and I believe my training and studying make me a better person. I don't have time to bicker over stuff. Too many positive things to work on. Hapkido is a very important part of my warrior lifestyle and training, and it always will be.

Anyway, those are a few thoughts on HKD from someone who just got back from Korea. The trip was too short, and I can't wait to get back there again. Hope this helps a little regarding HKD.

Hapki!

Alain Burrese

www.burrese.com
www.aikiproductions.com

[dortiz]

Alain,
thank you for that post. Glad to hear you had a great trip. What you wrote is exactly why I train.
Its that passion for our art that makes it so rewarding.
You are a true leader in our community.

Thank you!

Dave O.

[Bruce W Sims]

Great post, Alain!

Though there has undoubtedly been contention in the past, it seems as though the folks in Korea are not as overt about it as one finds in the West. Have you noticed as well? To me it seems that even Korean nationals who relocate to the West seem to become more territorial and autocratic. Training with Kim Dojunim I never saw any sort of rancor or heard any kind of criticism about this or that person of organization. Is this similar to what you experienced?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Alain]

Thank you both Dave and Bruce for the kind words regarding my post. My sincere goal is to be a positive influence in the HKD, MA, and SD communities.

I've also been working a lot on a warrior lifestyle philosophy that I plan to write and teach about that is based on a lot of studying and applying things. I've just started a book based on me living in Korea, but I have created an older Korean who teaches me. It is similar to Dan Millman's Way of the Peaceful Warrior where he created the old man Socretes at the gas station. My book will be full of accurate places and such in Korea, but the teachings from the old man will come from many sources that I have studied. I hope people will find it an interesting book. I've just started, so not sure when I'll have it done and look for a publisher. (I'm doing it among other projects as well) I'm really hoping this book and a couple others I have planned will help many people live better through MA and Warriorship training.

Bruce - regarding your question. My instructors won't talk much about the politics of the various organizations. They said there are politics and that some people abuse their positions. That's about all. As I've said, my instructors have changed organizations a few times in the last number of years. I don't question why, I just want to learn from them. If there is a different logo on my uniform or on my dan certs, so be it. I'm still just learning and training under the same people whom I have developed a strong relationship with. That relationship and what I've learned is what is important to me.

My instructors did say this new organization they belong to is run by a person who used to be KHF, so the techniques and such are the same. They believe this new organization offers good support and training for the member schools, so they think it will be good. That's about the extent of our talking regarding organizations. The new organization is this one:

http://www.k-hapkido.org/

My instructor gave me a new uniform from this organization. I still like my old KHF uniforms, but I have some from several different organizations now, with this being the newest. My instructor said it didn't really matter what uniform I wear, but if on trips to Korea we go to something official with this organization, I should be wearing this uniform.

As I mentioned, I also had a great visit with John Johnson who is still with the KHF. We visited a few places, talked about a lot of things, and he treated me to an excellent dinner there in Seoul. He is a true martial artist and gentleman warrior and someone I repect and am glad for what he is doing to help the art as well. We did talk a little about the problems different organizations seem to have, and it seems like they all have them. Just like other martial arts, just like just about anything. The NFL has problems, the NBA has problems, I've seen BAR organizations have problems, we see problems with our elected officials all the time, etc. So John and I didn't talk very long about problems, we had more fun talking about other stuff.

So bottome line, I didn't have any negative discussions about any organization or person while in Korea. (one exception was John and I briefly spoke about an individual in the US and some problems a few years ago with that person that we were both involved with some back then)

As far as who Dojunim is, each of the three schools I go to in Gangneung have a picture of Choi Young-Sul on the wall and he is referred to as Dojunim. There is really nothing else said about it.

I'm hoping to post some pictures one of these days on my site, or maybe my myspace site. In Kim Hyun's school he has a picture of himself under the picture of Dojunim Choi, and that picture has him in the side kick pose with his leg straight up in the air side kicking over his head. HKD has all those kicks too. Lee Jun Kyu once won a trophy in Seoul for kicking, and believe me, he can kick. With my knee surgeries and back surgeries, I know I cannot and will not kick like them, but that's okay. They have always told me, when real fight, kick low. I still work on high kicks, and I can do some decent, but not like they can. That's why I say that you can find all the fancy kicks in HKD too, not just TKD. In fact, I think you can find better kickers in some HKD schools than in TKD. Because a HKD person will kick you anywhere from top of your head to your feet. I have seen some great TKD kickers too, so I don't want to take that away from them. (I've seen some great Karate kickers and such too)

Hope that answers the question a bit.

Yours in Training,

Alain

www.burrese.com
www.aikiproductions.com

[Bruce W Sims]

Hope that answers the question a bit.

Yours in Training,

Alain

www.burrese.com
www.aikiproductions.com

Yes, Alain and I think a kind of answer of sorts to what was being bandied back and forth before.


"....

As far as who Dojunim is, each of the three schools I go to in Gangneung have a picture of Choi Young-Sul on the wall and he is referred to as Dojunim. There is really nothing else said about it....

......"

Maybe, in a way that sort of says it all. The pic goes on the wall and speaks for itself, and the rest is just following the training path one chooses, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Unhfireboy2007]

The best way I've heard Hap Ki Do described is "Aikidos Nasty Cousin" the philosophy of Aikido is to defend yourself with out injuring your attacker, however hap ki do has no such philosophy, many of the techniques are meant to seriously injure your attacker by destroying joints, striking them in areas to cause the most damage (ie kidneys, face with elbow, groin ectra) although many of the joint locks, throws and ideas are the same... another major difference is that Aikido is large sweeping circles while hap ki do is small concise circles close to your center (in the area of your navel... a little lower). I know some people put a lot more in to their replies, but I think this is probably the most simple way to describe it.

[hkd_instructor]

everything evolves. What HKD is today, will not be what the world knows as HKD in 10, 20 or 30 years.

I started JJ training about 30 years ago. At that time, they showed basic footwork from a postured defense against a sword attack. Obviously, this is old school. Nice, but not "as" relevant as someone yielding a 3-5" blade, or worse, a gun.

All things evolve, some good, some not so good. The real question is, what are you looking for in an art.

I was in SM HK for 20+ years, which focused on high kicks, less throws, etc.,

I'm now part of Shinsei Hapkido, and you can see the Japanese influence in this system. Given Korea was occupied by Japan until the end of the war, there was certainly influence/evolution of the arts during that time as people needed to learn/understand how to defend against other arts/techniques.

HKD Instructor, affectionately referred to as "MasterLock" :)

[Hyung]

everything evolves. What HKD is today, will not be what the world knows as HKD in 10, 20 or 30 years.

I started JJ training about 30 years ago. At that time, they showed basic footwork from a postured defense against a sword attack. Obviously, this is old school. Nice, but not "as" relevant as someone yielding a 3-5" blade, or worse, a gun.

All things evolve, some good, some not so good. The real question is, what are you looking for in an art.

I was in SM HK for 20+ years, which focused on high kicks, less throws, etc.,

I'm now part of Shinsei Hapkido, and you can see the Japanese influence in this system. Given Korea was occupied by Japan until the end of the war, there was certainly influence/evolution of the arts during that time as people needed to learn/understand how to defend against other arts/techniques.

HKD Instructor, affectionately referred to as "MasterLock" :)

I agree.
And as Marc Tedeschi once wrote in his book... what is considered effective may not be as effective, or may even be ineffective in a different geography, time and with different people.
That's why hapkido may have to evolve and to adapt constantly to modern times.
Claiming direct lineage, as the "original and traditional" martial art of Dojunim Choi, well... who can truly tell this? Learning other styles and cross training is good, but without loosing your roots... not for making a mixture of different styles and make your own "whatever"-ryu/do style, is something, that somehow the original masters of many hapkido derived styles have done themselves (namely KSW, HRD, SMHKD, TKMS, HJMS, KSHKD, HMD, ICHF, etc).

Best regards.

[Unhfireboy2007]

To go along with the last post.... my instructor is constantly telling us 'If it works, use it!'

[iron_ox]

I agree.
Claiming direct lineage, as the "original and traditional" martial art of Dojunim Choi, well... who can truly tell this?


You are kidding, right?

[Hyung]

Hmmm.... not kidding.
With your signature of "Preserving Authentic Hapkido for Future Generations (Not the only one, just one who is...)", you from the JKK had said it all (at least, the way you insist it is).
Honestly... do you really think that hapkido the way you have learned it, is the same hapkido about 50 years ago, the one Choi Yong Sul taught originally to their first generation of students? Unless, you are korean, and about 70 years old nowadays.
Please, I am not an expert, just an enthusiast of hapkido. But when you see the little films from the 60's of the main first masters, the hapkido, at least in the artistic part, seems very much improved now than in those first years. Maybe, now is better.
And about evolving, and adapting the system to new times... for example, we do not practice much from sitting in the floor position techniques cause they are somehow nowadays obsolete.
Hapkido as an art, has a personal interpretation. So the way you do techniques, must have been influenced by the way your teacher has done them, and these by the way your teacher's teacher had done it before. That's lineage. So, my hapkido may not be like your hapkido. And to accept another people's way as valid, requires humane humility.

Best regards.

[iron_ox]

Hmmm.... not kidding.
With your signature of "Preserving Authentic Hapkido for Future Generations (Not the only one, just one who is...)", you from the JKK had said it all (at least, the way you insist it is).
Honestly... do you really think that hapkido the way you have learned it, is the same hapkido about 50 years ago, the one Choi Yong Sul taught originally to their first generation of students? Unless, you are korean, and about 70 years old nowadays.
Please, I am not an expert, just an enthusiast of hapkido. But when you see the little films from the 60's of the main first masters, the hapkido, at least in the artistic part, seems very much improved now than in those first years. Maybe, now is better.
And about evolving, and adapting the system to new times... for example, we do not practice much from sitting in the floor position techniques cause they are somehow nowadays obsolete.
Hapkido as an art, has a personal interpretation. So the way you do techniques, must have been influenced by the way your teacher has done them, and these by the way your teacher's teacher had done it before. That's lineage. So, my hapkido may not be like your hapkido. And to accept another people's way as valid, requires humane humility.

Best regards.

No, thats not what you said. You questioned who can claim direct lineage. Well, the founder of the organization to which I am a member certainly can. Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo is one of 4 men (3 living) given a 9th Dan from Choi Dojunim - the highest level he ever awarded. That is senior lineage, pure and simple.

As for not learning techniques, well, thats why the art is diluted in some circles. The example you provided, seated techniques is about far more than just about being seated on the floor. The rules of motion and principles of leverage alone these techniques teach ensure they will never be "obsolete".

You want people to have humility, fine, but show me some certification and time in training with the Founder of the Art. Grandmaster Lim trained with Choi Dojunim from 1965 until he stopped teaching in 1984. Sorry, but the main reason many people (maybe not you) crosstrain and call for "evolution" is because they have never REALLY learned Hapkido. After almost 30 years of training, I have seen many variations, none come close to the power of Choi Dojunim's original teaching. In addition, having trained with men that started with Choi Dojunim (in Korea) in 1949, I think I can say categorically that Choi Dojunim's original material is alive and well, and not much in need of evolution...

[Hyung]

...never really trained hapkido?
The Suh brothers, Lee Jo Bang, Ji Han Jae... just to say some names, have never really trained hapkido? Not to mention many other grand masters.

Well, again and again, the same stuff over and over.
I'm not going to argue about these with you, cause if something has controversy in the martial arts world, is hapkido's history (the same old arguments).

Just for curiosity.... who are those 4 original Grand Masters who officially had the 9th degree black belt directly from Choi?

Best regards.

[iron_ox]

...never really trained hapkido?
The Suh brothers, Lee Jo Bang, Ji Han Jae... just to say some names, have never really trained hapkido? Not to mention many other grand masters.

Well, again and again, the same stuff over and over.
I'm not going to argue about these with you, cause if something has controversy in the martial arts world, is hapkido's history (the same old arguments).

Just for curiosity.... who are those 4 original Grand Masters who officially had the 9th degree black belt directly from Choi?

Best regards.

See, you ask about lineage then try to throw a few names out there as if they have actual standing in the art...

Suh, In Sun - 1st Dan, Joo Bang Lee, no known ranking from Choi Dojunim, Ji Han Jae, 3rd Dan confirmed, MAYBE 6th Dan from Choi Dojunim.

Now in their own arts, they are tops, I guess. But in terms of Hapkido, only Ji Han Jae has any standing. So there is no real controversy, only honesty. And, yes, I would say that the vast majority of the people who claim to teach Hapkido have seen only a shadow of the art. Again, its so simple Hyung, show the PAPER - its not the only moniker of talent, but it exists for those who actually trained with Choi Dojunim, because he absolutely issued rank.

The four men with 9th Dans:

Chang, Chin Il - Current Dojunim - title passed directly by Choi Dojunim
Lim, Hyun Soo - Head of Jungki Kwan, Longest training student of Choi Dojunim
Kim, Yun Sang - Head of Yong Sul Kwan
Lee, Yu Su - training partner of Kim, Yun Sang (deceased)

We can argue semantics all day, but in the end, show me the paper, without it, most arguments about standing are moot.

[Bruce W Sims]

I don't know that your line of thinking is going to bear fruit, Hyung. As you have pointed out so clearly, not a small part of what is under discussion is a matter of personal beliefs. As a veteran of many such discussions I know that it will go nowhere.

For myself, I too could claim lineage as a third generation (Choi-Kim-Me) but what would that actually say? Does that actually put me on a par with my own teacher who was a student of Ji and later a student of Choi? I think what is actually being bandied-about is a matter of bragging rights based on peoples opinions. Kim Dojunim presented paper, in the best American "SHOW-ME" tradition, and that paper was called into question. So, whats the point? People are going to believe what they want to believe. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[wires]

From what I've been able to determine, Hapkido looks pretty cool. I like the idea of a TMA that combines both striking and grappling. There seems to be a confusion of information, though, and I'm not sure what the problem is.

Let me give you some examples. . .

1) I've had people describe Hapkido as: TKD - flashy kicks + throws and jointlocks. But then other people bitterly dispute this. Is this an inaccurate description? Specifically, is HKD striking similar to TKD? Are there flashy kicks in HKD?

2) Some have described HKD grappling as being very similar to judo and others describe it as being very similar to Aikido. (I have also heard some say that HKD grappling came from aikido . . . while others say it came from jujutsu.) Then again . . . I have also heard some say that HKD grappling is NOTHING like judo! Well, which is it? I know that when I watched some "PRO Hapkido" videos on YouTube that not only did the throws look like Judo but the tournaments looked similar to MMA competitions. Not the same . . . but similar, i.e. punch, punch, kick, grab, throw, arm bar, tap.

3) I have also heard that HKD is not a competitive art. And yet, I can find videos of competitions and hear of people frequently going to competitions. Are competitions common within Hapkido or are the exception rather than the norm?


If anyone could provide some answers, I would appreciate it. I am looking to get back into martial arts and would prefer something in the TMA realm. Just FYI, my background includes 1 1/2 years of TKD (as a kid), a few months of Wushu (as a teen) and 6 months of Judo (as an adult). My favorite thing about Judo was the great amount of live training against resisting opponents.

MMA is all that hapkido claims to be.

I practiced Hapkido for years.

The throws and arm locks really didn't work against my friends that wrestled and boxed.

But when I started MMA, I started beating and choking my boxing and wrestling friends.

And it's fun!

[Unhfireboy2007]

Just because Hap Ki Do didn't work out for you doesn't mean it doesn't work.... it just means you didn't practice enough or truly learn the techniques

[Schmeag]

Out of interest, would you agree that training in a truly sufficient manner will mean that most martial arts will work? Why?

[Unhfireboy2007]

I would agree if some trains hard enough, and trains in the correct manner (good form, right technique) that most martial arts will be effective. The thing about Hap Ki Do is that a couple of inches off can make a big difference that is why it is important to train and train and train. Repeat each skill 100's or even 1000's of times to make it work correctly. Also if your attacker/opponent has time to think about what is going on then its not as effective... in other words if you don't know the technique well enough to do it with out thinking about it you can't do it fast enough to be effective

[klaasb]

The opposite is definitely true: now matter how effective the techniques are, if you don't train hard, they will be of little use.

[Bruce W Sims]

In the matter of Education, Motivation and Dedication are almost the defining criteria for success. I am not only speaking of MA, but of securing a degree, getting into a professional school and applying what one has learned to establishing a career.

The bain of MA is something called "magic thinking" in which people become enamoured of exotic practices and arcane nomenclature, believing that in some magic fashion they will become the masters of combat and undefeatable. Many commercial enterprises bank on this sort of thinking and promote it---even exaggerate it--- in the hopes of making their venture a commercial success.

So.... if you are interested in MA as something other than a novel or fun-sy passtime there are three facts you need to start warming up to.

The first reality of MA is that it takes hard work, regular training and mastering the boredom of practicing the same thing over and over again, then over and over again. The immature and those addicted to novelty need not apply.

The second reality of MA is that on any given day, any one person can beat any other person, or vice versa. What makes the difference is being willing to do what is necessary to increase the odds of ending the fight.

The third reality of MA is that there is no "easy road"---- there just isn't.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[DKYLE]

The best way I've heard Hap Ki Do described is "Aikidos Nasty Cousin" the philosophy of Aikido is to defend yourself with out injuring your attacker, however hap ki do has no such philosophy, many of the techniques are meant to seriously injure your attacker by destroying joints, striking them in areas to cause the most damage (ie kidneys, face with elbow, groin ectra) although many of the joint locks, throws and ideas are the same... another major difference is that Aikido is large sweeping circles while hap ki do is small concise circles close to your center (in the area of your navel... a little lower). I know some people put a lot more in to their replies, but I think this is probably the most simple way to describe it.

Hi

This is a very simplistic and amazingly way off base comparison of Hapkido and Aikido. I don't train in Hapkido so i will not be trying to counter this comparison by speculating on what Hapkido is. I will simply say that it seems as with most MA that there is more in common between the arts than is different. Your description of Hapkido i recognise very much as Aikido.

D

[Unhfireboy2007]

DKYLE - From my reading I don't think my statement is that far off base... I am also a hap ki do practitioner, one of the black belts in my dojang is a prior Aikido student and we've had this conversation multiple times. To let you know where I got my knowledge of Aikido from this book 'Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere: An Illustrated Introduction by Adele Westbrook and Oscar Ratti' If the book is misleading then I am way off base. I also did alot of research in deciding to take Hap Ki Do instead of Aikido and read a lot of articles online comparing to two arts. If you still feel I'm way off base please explain my errors

[hkd_instructor]

Maybe you should just ask someone to post a description of the art, or google each and read them. Hopefully that way you'll get a clear picture.

I've been doing HKD for 25 years, and wouldn't be able to tell you specifically what the main differences are between HKD and Aikido. I can, however, tell you the differences between a few different HKD methodologies.

I've been fortunate enough to train with Master Bob Ingersoll in SeaSide/Monterey area as of late. He shares stories regarding GM Ji, Han Jae and the 15 years he spent with him. Very interesting, and great history to help your understanding of the art and technique(s) you may or may not study.

Best,

HKD Instructor / aka MasterLock (affectionately known as...)
www.christianacademyofmartialarts.com

[DKYLE]

DKYLE - From my reading I don't think my statement is that far off base... I am also a hap ki do practitioner, one of the black belts in my dojang is a prior Aikido student and we've had this conversation multiple times. To let you know where I got my knowledge of Aikido from this book 'Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere: An Illustrated Introduction by Adele Westbrook and Oscar Ratti' If the book is misleading then I am way off base. I also did alot of research in deciding to take Hap Ki Do instead of Aikido and read a lot of articles online comparing to two arts. If you still feel I'm way off base please explain my errors

Hi Again,

:-) In your original post you explain as differences what i simply see as similiarities between the two arts, in Aikido we should strive to create ever smaller movements and always trying to maintain the defense of our own centreline, so for example from your original post saying in Hapkido you must keep your hands in rour centre to me appears to be just another similarity between the two. Aikido is executed triangularly, and large circular movements must be in our partner or attacker and not in ourselves, to circle around an attack leaves many openings and is simply not effective. So decisive positive triangular entry using correct timing, kuzushi, intention and body alignment is paramount. Aikido techniques all have ara waza (severe) applications which again i just imagine to be perhaps the focus of the Hapkido training you mentioned. All Aikido techniques MUST be performed to allow the application of these if wished by using the above mentioned principles. It is the training in this way that allows less severe but in no way less martially correct and effective techniques to be applied. :-) In that you looked around before deciding on one art or the other again to me just means it comes down to a choice of what is right for anyone person. Large circular movements and a philosophy learned by some from books rather than on the mat is to me just simply not Aikido. :)

D

[Bruce W Sims]

Mmmm.....just to make sure we keep perspective here, it may be worthwhile to comment.

There are practitioners of Hapkido whose execution and philosophy are quite closely allied with the Japanese Aikido arts. This has no small connection to the efforts of the late MYONG Jae-nam in fostering a melding of Korean and Japanese practices. Taken a step farther, there are practitioners of Aikido in Korea who use the Korean reading---"hapkido"---- for the Japanese KANJI for Aikido.

Moving away from that Korean-Japanese Aikido/Hapkido connection there are also Hapkido practitioners whose methods are essentially a melding of Korean kicking material with Ju-jutsu grappling as well as arts which have combined the same kicking material with Chinese boxing and grappling. Lastly there are still practitioners who have elected to practice material as close to the original techniques said to have been brought from Japan to Korea by CHOI Yong Sul. These latter techniques are quite utilitarian and effective as they are challenging to master.

I don't wish to make a case for one practice over another. My only concern was that we didn't go too far in drawing parallels with Aikido without maintaining some balance. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[DKYLE]

Mmmm.....just to make sure we keep perspective here, it may be worthwhile to comment.

There are practitioners of Hapkido whose execution and philosophy are quite closely allied with the Japanese Aikido arts. This has no small connection to the efforts of the late MYONG Jae-nam in fostering a melding of Korean and Japanese practices. Taken a step farther, there are practitioners of Aikido in Korea who use the Korean reading---"hapkido"---- for the Japanese KANJI for Aikido.

Moving away from that Korean-Japanese Aikido/Hapkido connection there are also Hapkido practitioners whose methods are essentially a melding of Korean kicking material with Ju-jutsu grappling as well as arts which have combined the same kicking material with Chinese boxing and grappling. Lastly there are still practitioners who have elected to practice material as close to the original techniques said to have been brought from Japan to Korea by CHOI Yong Sul. These latter techniques are quite utilitarian and effective as they are challenging to master.

I don't wish to make a case for one practice over another. My only concern was that we didn't go too far in drawing parallels with Aikido without maintaining some balance. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Hi Bruce,

I hope it does not seem that i have been trying to make a case for one practice over another, and i'm sure there may be very many technical differences between the two arts but i doubt that the principles of the two are worlds apart. It is simply the misconceptions of Aikido i was seeking to redress, and perhaps shed some light on. :)

Regards
D

[Bruce W Sims]

Hi Bruce,

I hope it does not seem that i have been trying to make a case for one practice over another, and i'm sure there may be very many technical differences between the two arts but i doubt that the principles of the two are worlds apart. It is simply the misconceptions of Aikido i was seeking to redress, and perhaps shed some light on. :)

Regards
D


Agreed, and parallels with Aikido are not without their applications.

As was just mentioned, one expects that the authority with which a technique is applied ought to grow with the experience of the practitioner. In the Pre-WW II practice both at Nakano and later at the infamous "Hell Dojo" Ueyshiba was well-known for painful and effective techniques.

I can also report that at Guemsan, SK the traditional Hapkiyusool level of Hapkido can be exceedingly uncomfortable to learn, reportedly taking as long as 3 months before the joints of the practitioner can handle the manner of the execution.

All of that said, I must also report that Hapkido is generally a commercial venture based on a MA theme. It has been demonstrated that while it is an effective fighting art, the cost in discomfort and dedication are often much more than what the typical consumer is willing to pay. For this reason, most Hapkido teachers report teaching "Hapkido" while gradually morphing to larger circles, larger motions, acrobatics and inflated curriculum in order to retain students. I am not a huge fan of this, but I can't deny the consumer's role in shaping the practice in this manner.

Traditional Hapkido is very effective. It is also a demanding art to learn and master and finding a good school is very hard. Most teachers talk a better school than they actually provide and the result is that there are plenty of folks who think they know one thing when they have actually been taught something else. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[koyo]

When aikido first came out of Japan 1965 it was already suffering from what Bruce has been saying about modern hapkido. I was already shodan at the time in aikido which resembled that shown in the dynamis sphere book. My teacher, Chiba shihan immediately graded me to white belt telling me I had to start over.

MAIN LESSON..AIKIDO IS not A CIRCULAR ART. The attacker is made to spin spiral and circle around the aikidoka not the opposite.

At a higher level the arts have far more similarities and are most effective.As I posted on another thread the arts are effective when executed by experienced proponets. The assuptions of those with no personal experience of the arts are of little relevance.


regards koyo

[Bruce W Sims]

Thanks, Koyo:

As a side question, have you found that weapons work in Aikido is rather uniform across various traditions or is it definitely associated with only particular groups? You comments or any information you may have would be appreciated.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[koyo]

Hi Bruce

Iwama aikido of Saito shihan emphasises aiki ken and aiki jo and is the weapons art left by O senei Ueshiba.(see bokken basics aiki ken thread) Other masters of aikido have developed their own sword and stick methods as well.

Saito shihan called his training aikido riai meaning complete with weapons training and atemi.Personaly I feel that saito shihan's approach integrated the principles of weapons perfectly with the empty hand techniques.

Basic principle of sword and practical aikido..attack at all times show a superior fighting spirit and cut through the opponent's intention to attack.

A far cry from the attitude imagined by those who have not been exposed to it.


regards koyo

[Bruce W Sims]

Hi Bruce

Iwama aikido of Saito shihan emphasises aiki ken and aiki jo and is the weapons art left by O senei Ueshiba.(see bokken basics aiki ken thread) Other masters of aikido have developed their own sword and stick methods as well.

Saito shihan called his training aikido riai meaning complete with weapons training and atemi.Personaly I feel that saito shihan's approach integrated the principles of weapons perfectly with the empty hand techniques.

Basic principle of sword and practical aikido..attack at all times show a superior fighting spirit and cut through the opponent's intention to attack.

A far cry from the attitude imagined by those who have not been exposed to it.


regards koyo

Many thanks, Koyo:

I have Saito's 5-volume set and the interfacing of armed and unarmed body motion is fascinating to study. In the KMA I have not been able to identify a construct which represents the Japanese term "RIAI". In such cases the term "MU-DO" is used loosely to indicate a teaching approach that seeks to teach the same sort of relationship. All the same its good to know that the traditions are being kept alive and promoted. Thanks again.

Best Wishes,

Bruce