your perception of Ilmu in Silat

[Raden-Rahmat]

this is just a point of discussion i thought of as i wanted to discover what pesilats thought about this. Ive come accross many who percieve ot in a negative light. Though i accept the fact that there are negative elements around and this might have negative implications but this does not weaken the positive camp...more like a smear campaign.

if i think of schools like Gayung Fatani and Silat Wali Songo, ive been told they have the influence of ilmu. Now this has religious rulings as well as tribal rulings to it. Has anyone had experience in this field, exposure to it or have you studied it and then turned away...then tell us what your reasons for turning away was if any.

Please lets make this as broad as possible as id like to keep it open all the way to discover all avenues since in South Africa we have limited access to information and the web serves as the centre of attraction.

Bear in mind i ask these questions from an islamic point of view and just as a pesilat...so your religious and non religious views will be welcome...its a learning curve

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat Raden-Rahmat,

I want to contribut to this discussion. Unfortunately, I am confused by them term Ilmu, which in Malaysia, generally just means knowledge. I don't know if it has an Indonesian context that is lost on many young Malaysian pesilat (myself included).

Would you define it for me? Shukran jazilan wa marhaban.

Salam persilatan,

[Narrue]

1% truth 99% junk

If it’s practical and it works then keep it, if its superstition and impractical then dump it.
I believe silat in its early days was more practical/scientific but the Sufi tradition introduced lots of techniques which are not so useful in real fights. Saying a spell into your open palm before you strike someone would be an example of Sufi influence in Silat. I guess it’s a matter of personal choice and if you feel stronger for doing it then its ok but I don’t think techniques like that actually work.

[Kertas]

I assume that Narrue's statement refers to the silat ilmu batin,which has calls on the jinn to assist. The true sufi wil teach you that the magicians who use jinn in silat are nothing but creating a false impression of supernatural power. On the other hand,i do believe in ilmu batin in its true sense. That ilmu is something an experienced teacher can relay to you,and its base is Yaqin(total faith in the effect). My final comment would be a question. "who is more dangerous? The keris or its owner?"

[Raden-Rahmat]

Narrue, your perception comes from more illegal sources. Sufi influence does not deal with irregularities or inadequacies in any way, it always keeps alive the teachings the Prophet (upon whom be everlasting peace) has taught and shown in certain circumstances. the issue of "blowing in the palm" is a mere example and is not limited to a story telling situation. The blowing is preceded by an ayat or thikr taught either by your teacher or by a sufi guide. How superficial is it when it is proven?

genie influence is the more shady side of things...this im not intending to discuss cos im talking of ilmu referrign to ilmu batin in relation to the good clean side of things

[Raden-Rahmat]

depends hey, if he is running amok then its your call to challenge him...but if in a sane situation the i gues the skilled pesilat/pendekar is the point of your focus...as well as his keris

[Raden-Rahmat]

just another spanner like i said, how does the spiritual aspect actually affect your attack method? look, you are blowing into your hand or onto your opponent...how actually does it become physically detrimental? just asking cos i know that we are essentially spiritual elements of the cosmos and spiritual matter to us would obviously relate to our existence...but i cant really understand how it actually works. whether people use the genie or the sufi chain....anyone ever been explained this???

[Kertas]

My following post is from Kitab ut Tawhid,by Sh.Ahmad Hendricks of the Alawiy Zawiyah, walmer estate, Cape Town.

[Kertas]

Salam, this discussion would lead to the topic of Tawheed,which is the knowledge of Allah the Most High, His attributes, the qualities of prophethood, the Prophets themselves and other important guiding principles of Islam. But there is a type of Tawheed called Tawheed Khas,as agreed by the Ahlu Sunnah. This refers to the station of the spiritual traveller,who after years of practising the methodology of tasawuf,realises the doctrines of Tawheed Aam,which for him becomes a living reality. This according to Imam Ghazali is in fact a degree of arrival. OK, all that said,let me explain. In tawheed, we learn that there are 3 types of judgement, or Ahkaam,sing.HUKM. Hukm shar'iy(derived from Divine law), Hukm Aadiy(derived from the repetitive experience of natural phenomenon), Hukm Aqliy(derived from reason or rational judgement). The hukm of the reality of Ilmu Batin would in fact include all three types of Ahkaam to get to an answer,but in my small understanding,i would like to ellaborate on the Hukm Aadiy/the judgement derived from repetitive experience of Natural Phenomenon. This deals with CAUSES and EFFECTS. The Ahlu sunnah hold the opinion that "causes" do not produce "effects" by their own nature. Allah the Most High, according to them,produces the effect once the cause has been activated. In our example,the burning sensation felt when fire is brought near to the skin is created by Allah the Most High. In Surah al Mu'minoon, Allah says "Allah is your Lord. There is no God except Him, Creator of all things.." ok, all things according to Ash'arite thinking includes both causes and effects. I would think thats the answer to Radin's question. So have we reached Tawheed Khas? Have we "arrived"?

[Raden-Rahmat]

if the question is have we arrived...really im not even aware where ive been!!!

interesting to know that these thing scan be justified even though it seems it cannot be, referring to logical deduction mainly...not everything is logical but true as said and proved by Kertas that there is divine proof.

The issue of the the types ahkaam, im now convinced the Rifa'i Shaikh, Shaikh Ahmad Kabeer has experience of this and eh was bringing this to the worlds stage that this can be proven in reality too through debus...obviously this is jeopardised by the false ppl in the name of real debus.

we must however remember that is does exist and that it was proven and still can be and i would like to state that Shaikh Ahmad Kabeer Ar'rifa'i is someone whom we could regard at that "station of arrival"...

[Narrue]

Actually what I meant was simply that I personally believe in some ilmu but not all, some is true but most is not, just my thoughts on that.

I believe Silat was in Indonesia long before Islam came to Indonesia, actually I believe Silat was in Indonesia before the prophet was even borne. I am confused then when people talk about the prophet and Silat. It is my belief that Silat was already complete in all its aspects (including the ilmu knowledge) before Islam even set foot in Indonesia, You can see from my point of view silat has nothing to do with the prophet or Islam but pre-dates it....again just my thoughts.

Back to topic, real ilmu is Scientific (not religious) and works on a scientific basis.

[Kertas]

True that it is scientific. In the same breath, we can say that the Quran teaches the scientists the things they could not suck out of their thumb. In fact,the Prophet has fed us from his blessed thumb. Nobody claims that silat is entirely an islamic martial art. But what we say is that islam has refined all branches of knowlegde. That is a broad statement i know,but it can be qualified. I percieve Ilmu batin to be of different types. The type which consists of spiritual elements is the one that Radin is referring to. What i have stated in my post above in no way suggests that islam or the prophet came before silat. Your perception of a complete ilmu would remain your perception. In other words, the cup you drink from could contain orange juice. While we are sipping spring water. If i dont know of your complete ilmu,i zip my lips. We always learn from each other. Forgive me if it seems i have offended anyone. My comments are directed at the comments. Thanx for reading.

[tellner]

I was hoping to avoid this, but sometimes it just can't be helped. Here in abbreviated form is one of my standard rants.

Science and Revealed Religion

Christianity is incompatible with science.
So is Judaism.
So is Islam.
So are Zoroastrianism, Krishna Consciousness, Osiris Mystery Cults, Mitrhaism, and Pastafarian worship of the Flying Spaghetti Monster even if an afterlife with beer volcanoes and a stripper factory sounds like a good deal.

Revealed religions are all based on undebatable undeniable Truths. There might be arguments about interpretation and how they translate into the real world, but after a certain point you may not question.

We can argue about whether the Faithful are promised supernatural sexual companions with eternally regenerating virginity or white grapes - a current matter of recent lively debate among some Muslim scholars. The Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox discuss (often at swords point) what precisely happens to water and wine when the guy with the black suit and turned-around collar lifts them up. Do they become the literal Body and Blood of the Incarnated Deity or is it a symbol of the Divine Presence? Jews can and do spend years debating the precise significance of a single obscure passage in the commentaries on the Oral Torah with reference to Kabbalistic numerology and whether it means that a certain custom is an actual commandment or a matter of personal choice.

But it all comes down to the same thing. There comes a point where you must surrender your reason, stop your inquiries and ultimately "comply or die". In the Abrahamic religions it's a Sacred text - Torah, Gospels or Quran - combined with the pronouncements of someone who has been given Divine Authority to pass judgment on these matters whether it be a Prophet (pbut), the Pope or the Sanhedrin. By definition what they say is True. Anything that contradicts them is False.

Science takes that notion and tosses it into the tree chipper, abandons the notion that it possesses Ultimate Truth, and settles for asking dangerously inconvenient questions chiefly "What do you claim to know?", "How do you know it?", "How can we test it?" and "If it doesn't hold up how can you explain that part of the world that you claimed to understand?" There is no question which can not in principle be asked. And there is no theory or model which must be preserved.

The word "dangerous" isn't at all random. It represents a radical rejection of the basis of any revealed religion.

A revealed religion assumes the conclusion and explains the observed world in terms of what it assumes to be true. If they disagree, then the observations must be in error. They must be rejected or re-explained in terms that do not deny what we have been told to believe.

Science takes the data and the explanation and bashes them together. If the explanation breaks on the rocks of an inconvenient world it is allowed to sink, and a new one is built. If it is supported by observation and particularly if it can predict things which have not yet been observed it is retained. Sooner or later it will be prove inadequate and will be abandoned, modified or incorporated into into a later explanation.

In a revealed religion things are proved by their adherence to the Divinely provided Authority. Does it contradict Quran? Is there an appropriate Sunnah? Are there reliable Hadith on the subject?

In science things are disproven all the time. But they are never finally proven. The best you get is that since a huge mass of robust evidence supports a claim you can rely on it unless a really significant inconvenient set of facts comes along. If Stephen Hawking says something about cosmology or physics is true you listen respectfully and give his opinion a lot of weight because he has a long track record of getting things right and doing careful brilliant work. But he's perfectly capable of being mistaken and has been so many times.

A scientist would say "What the Sacred Text or this prophet says may turn out to be true. But it is not necessarily true. And it is certainly possible for it to be false. Examine each claim. Find a way of testing it without circular logic, solipsism or appeal to any of the usual logical fallacies. The test must be capable of showing that they are in error."

This attitude is absolute poison to the revelatory way of looking at the world. The Prophets are correct because they are Prophets. The Book (whichever book) is true because it is the Book and is therefore true by definition.

When one attempts to merge science and religion it leads to bad science and bad religion.

If scientific inquiry is limited by what the Torah or Quran dictates it ceases to be science. The essential radical honesty and willingness to accept what is rather than what one wishes to be true is immediately snuffed out.

If religion takes the results of science and bolsters its own claims through those results it ends in disaster. When scientific understanding changes the theologians either have to change their undeniable truths or have the distasteful job of handwaving and backfilling as their evidence disappears.

So Kertas, I fear you have missed the point entirely.

The Quran doesn't matter, and the Prophets(pbut) do not matter because an appeal to their authority is the antithesis of science and what it stands for.

Muslims may certainly be scientists. I personally know a number of very devout men and women who are superb ones. But they do not base their science on the Book or the Sunnah or the Hadith because that mode of understanding is not appropriate to answering questions about the nature and behavior of the physical world. And they do not reject conclusions because they come from non-believers. The good ones welcome them because they recognize that it may reveal assumptions and blind spots their own work.

[Gajah Silat]

Eloquent rant Tellner...but is a Pastafarian a dreadlocked Italian because I think I know him?:)

[Kertas]

Tellner, you are correct in some assumptions, scientifically speaking. The Quran however does not and has NEVER restricted scientific enquiry. On the contrary,it encourages use of the intellect and reason. Even your mind is a created entity of your existence. What islam says to scientists is this "go ahead and be as inquisitive as you feel. the universes and whatever it contains has seen and unseen elements. When are you going to create the like of what has been created without the help of an already existing creation? The Quran is the word of the Creator,whether you deny it or not. Your intellect is a mercy to you..so dont be arrogant." the muslim scientists you know may not have enough knowledge of the Quran or Hadith to be able to display its truth and compatibility with science. The Quran doesnt deny scientific findings,it only denys the thought that leads to non-belief in a Supreme Diety. It rejects athiesm, polythiesm, darwinism and the likes of it. Any action or reaction has a consequence right? If i murder, and found guilty, i would end up in jail. Scientists do not know the unseen. Ask any indonesian silat teacher,he would tell you that there exist something called a genie/jinn. Have you spoken to one? They live and die, eat and sleep, procreate and subscribe to beliefs or non-belief. They are created from a smokeless fire,and they are also created by a Supreme Unity, God. That was just an example. All things, as explained in my previous post are created by Him. Deny His existence, then you'll end up in jail. Worst of all, there is possibility of No bail!

[Kertas]

There is a beautiful website www.harunyahya.com. the author of the many articles and books on that site has indeed displayed the approach that Islam and its revealed Quran treats modern science with.

for now, i feel that Tellner's post did not answer Radin's question. I will leave the Christians and jews to defend their Scriptures/ religions.

Regards

[Kertas]

Eloquent rant Tellner...but is a Pastafarian a dreadlocked Italian because I think I know him?:)

LOL! :)

[Kertas]

Hey Hormat all...

i would like to say that although the debate or question by the thread starter has opened up religious or philosophical debate, and scientific too, in no way are the religious connotations,discussion or aspects involved in the evolution of Silat meant to suppose that all silat are exclusively Islamic.

We speak in context of the questions posed, and by expounding on certain aspects of a certain Silat doctrine, philosophy and ethics should only be meant to educate or share in terms of knowledge or experiance.

debate is welcomed, and everyone has their own views of the world and its existence, science, politics, religion etc.. But lets focus on the question asked, and not go about religious debate.

If your silat has no religious aspect to it, then mine has. Silat is Silat. its martial application is lethal and could be affirmed long before Islam has entered the malay Archipelago, or Nusantara.

Tellner, i salute you as a pesilat.

regards once again:topic:

[Narrue]

Nobody claims that silat is entirely an Islamic martial art. But what we say is that Islam has refined all branches of knowledge. That is a broad statement i know,but it can be qualified.

Likewise that is your perception but since we are talking about Silat I guess you are saying that Islamification of Silat has improved it as a martial art? If we were to completely Christianise western boxing would it improve it?
When you talk about the Ilmu batin I must admit I don’t know what the Ilmu consists of but the Science and knowledge of Choondu Varma and Noku varma have been around for thousands of years.

Your perception of a complete Ilmu would remain your perception. In other words, the cup you drink from could contain orange juice. While we are sipping spring water

Yes I know, Orange juice is not as pure as spring water. It would be better if you could clarify what Ilmu batin actually was then we could get a better picture of what we are talking about.

[Kertas]

narrue,

Most definitely, the knowledge which Islam has brought has most definitely removed elements of superstition that were present in "some" silat. They were present in silat most probably due to The Superstitious beliefs which we havee too inherited some of, prevelant in Indonesia pre-islamic days.

Ever heard of Genie in a bottle? Many silats who claim to have purely Scientific explanations to their supernatural effects. I have witnessed a few silat practitioners who claim this, but merely just playing with Jinn and magic.

Having said that, i only speak of my experience. This topic always falls into the "secrecy" category for its own reason.

Has anyone else learnt a silat with these elements? The Silat (i wish not to say the name of) which i have learnt only teaches breathing technique. After passing some levels, you are able to break ice, and metal pipes with your bear hands. Some higher graded students can even stop your movement just by having a look at you!

I witnessed very strange practices like rolling your body in wet sand and being washed off by some "spiritual water" all in the name of martial science.

[Kertas]

Yes I know, Orange juice is not as pure as spring water. It would be better if you could clarify what Ilmu batin actually was then we could get a better picture of what we are talking about.[/QUOTE]

If Ilmu Batin was a Liquid, then what i meant was that the Drink you are speaking of could be different to the drink we mean. I didnt mean that your drink means less, as i do not knw entirely what you refer to when you talk about scientific ilmu. Maybe an example would clarify?

regards

[Gajah Silat]

Likewise that is your perception but since we are talking about Silat I guess you are saying that Islamification of Silat has improved it as a martial art? If we were to completely Christianise western boxing would it improve it?

Hmm, well originaly boxing contained kicks, throws and many other 'illegal' moves and we could perhaps say modern boxing was indeed influenced by a Christain mentality. So could we say it's a mainly Christian art or an art predominantly practiced by those who are nominaly Christians.

However, did the British claim it was a Christian art not to be taught to outsiders or infidels? I think not:rolleyes:

It seems to me that the emphasis on religion and dawah is much more prevalent among Malaysians than Indonesians. On the whole I think there is a much more tolerant nature towards other beliefs in Indonesia(most of!).

For instance my wife's family has Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and protestants....it's a little harder to condemn ones family isnt it? Consequently, Silat is rather more about fighting than religion, and religion is often not an issue. In fact, in a traditional sense family lineage is more important. Yes indeed there is ilmu batin, superstitions etc. but generaly before any of this is touched upon, the physical has to be mastered by sheer hard work!

Anyway, aku bosan, I'm bored with all of this. It's been done to death.

We seem to spend more time discussing religion than silat.

Salam hormat semua

[tellner]

Kertas, you have very nicely demonstrates the difference between the two ways of thinking. You say that Islam places no limits on scientific inquiry but rejects various positions including "polytheism" and "darwinism". Science under such a version of Islam is limited in the questions it can ask and the conclusions it is permitted to reach. That means it has fundamentally ceased to be science.

It's a difficult issue and always has been. Muslims aren't the first to crack a tooth on that particular nut and won't be the last.

Getting back to djinn, let's just say that I haven't ever seen one or any evidence that would pass muster for their existence or characteristics, so I can't say "Djinn exist". They definitely come under "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". All the reports say they are alien, dangerous and best left alone the same way you'd avoid an old crate of dynamite with crystallization all over the sticks. You might be able to blast a stump with it and not take any harm. Chances are you'd blow yourself up. Best to tag it and let someone or Someone more qualified deal with the problem.

[tellner]

Eloquent rant Tellner...but is a Pastafarian a dreadlocked Italian because I think I know him?:)

Pastafarians are followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://venganza.org/). They believe that the FSM created the world starting with trees, a cow and a midget and even have a picture to prove it:

http://www.venganza.org/him2.jpg

It was all done last Wednesday, but the FSM arranged it all so that we'd be fooled into believing that everything is much older.

Pastafarians eat pasta as a Sacred Food. They want to be touched by His Noodly Appendage. They dress up as pirates because pirates prevent global warming:

http://www.venganza.org/piratesarecool4.gif

They also believe in Unintelligent Design. The FSM is obviously not very bright which accounts for the state of the world.

You can guess exactly how serious the whole thing is :p

Raaaaa-men!

[Gajah Silat]

I believe, I have had a FSM epiphany, halelujah! Praise be to the FSM:confused: I will henceforth preach the absolute and undeniable truth of unintellegent design:)
(BTW pirate ice is pure genius....divine inspiration?)

Now to the ol' djinn malarkey. If anyone wants proof I can introduce them to someone in Jawa driven to complete insanity because of dabbling too deeply with such things. Wether this was pure psychology, or the effect of entities is largely irelevent. Belief, experimentation or actuality has had a drastic and permanent effect on this man's mental health.

The thing that I don't understand is the need of some to have something 'extra'. Breathing exercises, yes very useful. Tenaga Dalam could also be interpreted as purely a way to strengthen the physical core. it does not need to be mystical, for me that is just an efficient way of conceptualisation....similar to think like a tiger, fight like a tiger I suppose.

For me, it is the mostly about the physical techniques. Yes, there are mental and psychological tools too. Of course these will present themselves within the parameters of your own cultural framework.

There is no right or wrong, just differing frames and interpretations.

salam

[Kertas]

Tellner, thank you for your opposition. Well, what i understand is that Islam does not oppose or restrict scientific inquiry,as it has answers which muslims adhere to. I would like to end the open debate there,but we could continue if you like to PM me. I like the pastafarian, but do they eat two minute noodles as well? Gajah id say you rite about the jinn part. They could drive u insane. Though there has been a group to south africa promoting Budi Suci Sejati. Im not sure thats correct spelling,but the practitioners put a spirit in a teaspoon and could kil u with it. Anyways, has anyone an idea as to why a keris is regarded as a magical weapon?

[Gajah Silat]

Ya tuhan Mas Kertas,

The Keris......where do we start? It's a huge subject but just to touch upon it in laymans terms.

Due to the shortage of iron on Jawa many were made from meteorites. The iron from meteorites has a high degree of nickel and this is what gives the pamor!

The application of warangan(arsenic sulphate) causes platination of the iron but not the nickel. So we get the characteristic look of black iron contrasted with silver nickel(and of course an arsenic laden blade).

There are thousands of types of pamor and an almost unlimited variation of 'blade' designs.

The keris was traditionaly made by an empu. The process was highly ritualised and may contain fasting, verses from the koran, maybe the invocation of a djinn to dwell within the keris.

Imagine in the past, someone turning a piece of rock into something as wonderful as a keris:eek: It was a magical process in itself, sometimes the metal was folded hundreds of times to make the pamor, particularly pamor miring.

In Jawa a keris is a pusaka and treated as a living thing.

Hope this is a start:)

[Rebo Paing]

As you can see ... I've "Moved On" ... I tried but can't resist the pull of this thread ... :bang:

Religion in MA is personal ... and any attempt to "make" it a dependency for something that is inherently an approach to how to move is absolute rubbish ...

Silat is what the individual make of it ... it is NOT dependant upon Islam, Christian, Judaism, Buddhist, Hindu or Frog worship ...

All religion is in the dark ages ... just another socio-political smoke and mirror to subjugate the masses.

Absolute codswallop ... :mad:

[Kertas]

Ok no more rubbish for you or from you kembang. We get your point, blunt though:) . Terima kasih Gajah Silat. Speaking about meteorite, i met a silat guy who had a thin piece of it injected into his arm for magical reasons. He had a keris with an invisible blade,you could only see its handle. Anyway,have you guys read the Azure Keris on Saiful Azraqs blog? Quite an interesting series based on truth. The keris, its shape, history and power has always amazed me. Tell us more Gajah

[Narrue]

i met a silat guy who had a thin piece of it injected into his arm for magical reasons. He had a keris with an invisible blade,you could only see its handle.

Maybe he was deficient in Iron, he could have just taken iron pills like the rest of us:rolleyes: As for the keris, wow thats genius, I'm going to try and sell a keris handle on ebay now, nice one ;)

[Kertas]

Good luck with your sale narrue...

:topic:

[Gajah Silat]

Kertaspelawak!!

This website has a lot of information and lots of nice pictures :)http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/

BTW there are many stories of magic keris......don't believe all you hear:rolleyes:

[Narrue]

There are two important factors in the creation of what you might call a real keris, the physical and the non physical.

Physically if the keris is to be good it must be made of the correct materials and be well crafted, meteorite Iron is often a requirement if the blade is to be empowered. Meteorite contains Iron, nickel and a mix of rear earth elements which gives it good magnetic properties. At this point the keris may look beautiful and be physically well made however it is a keris mati (a dead keris), this is the most common keris in circulation.

Following a process the keris can be empowered which may mean the keris has an isi in it (a remnant of the empus mental energy (manas) which gives the keris a meaning (like a computer program). The keris may also be magnetized with an energy so a current flows through the blade, the origin of the storys of blades from which a stream of water can be drawn. A bad keris may even have a djin attached to the blade. If a keris had one or more of the above then it’s a keris hidup ( live blade).

In all situations the keris is below the human and the person who holds the keris is more important then the keris itself.

[Kertas]

Ya gajah... Of course i dont believe evrything i hear or read. What is amazing is that the Keris is one of the only weapons which has so much value and status amongst its people. It has an idenditity and even treated as a living being in some places. It has its ettiquette and commands the respect of its owner. It has produced many tales and comes in many sizes, even tiny ones which fit in your wallet. It plays an important part of melayu society and culture. Ajeeb!

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat all,

Took a long break to tend to my daughter's aqiqah and head shaving. Looks like everyone's been busy. Anyway, just so I feel important, here are my comments on the comments.

(By the way, this is a great thread, if only we could get it back on track).

Raden-Rahmat
"Has anyone had experience in this field, exposure to it or have you studied it and then turned away...then tell us what your reasons for turning away was if any."

I have both studied and socialised with some esoteric practises, but can't really say if they would work or not. Most of the arts I studied which had these 'bonuses' weren't directly related to the physical martial methods and seemed like add-ons (I later found out they were).

I was raised Muslim and inquisitive (I know for some that's an illogical combination) and generally memorised these practises and kept them in a notebook. My policy was never to throw anything away, just in case it actually works. I just continued my physical training and it worked irrespective of whether I used those 'amalan' or not.

The biggest problem I had was attitude. Many masters and senior pesilat either don't want to give or don't have the answers I sought to explain away how those practices worked. They just said, 'trust it'. But trust comes from buy-in, which they never understood. So, for the first few years of my life in silat, I've had a generic mistrust for everything I couldn't touch or understand. I questioned the authority and Islamic legality of the practices.

Narrue
"If it’s practical and it works then keep it, if its superstition and impractical then dump it."

Something might not be immediately practical. Throwing out the trash makes sense because it takes up physical space. But dumping knowledge is unwise. The FSM phenomenon attests to this.

"I believe silat in its early days was more practical/scientific but the Sufi tradition introduced lots of techniques which are not so useful in real fights. Saying a spell into your open palm before you strike someone would be an example of Sufi influence in Silat."

Any warrior method will be practical, and traditional scientific thought by way of trial and error and observations made sure it stayed that way.

However, the Nusantara was a hodge podge of belief systems and there is no way that silat was not influenced by any of these. These, too introduced 'useless techniques'.

It is only through the personal belief systems held by successive masters that these elements were either purged or placed in a different worldview.

Amazingly, irrespective of how many detractors naysay them, these methods are still passed on, taught and practised by hundreds, if not thousands of practitioners in Malaysia and Indonesia.

Kertas
"who is more dangerous? The keris or its owner?"

Metal doesn't kill. People do. Practically, though, the keris is pretty dangerous when wielded by a novice or a master, so my vote would go to the funky shaped knife. You'd be much less dangerous with a stabbing fist.

Narrue
"It is my belief that Silat was already complete in all its aspects (including the ilmu knowledge) before Islam even set foot in Indonesia."

I don't believe this to be true. If it was complete, there would be no growth and no adaptation, which is the antithesis of silat. The masters of old saw value in sourcing from Islam, and they saw empowerment by adding in what they felt was missing and if I may be so bold, what was impure.

"real ilmu is Scientific (not religious) and works on a scientific basis."

I understand your frustrations and where you're coming from, but this is a problem of definition, which I asked Raden-Rahmat to provide early on in this thread.

I know Tellner made a fantastic rant on science, which I'll address later, but Sufism is also a well-known science, which has a solid history of tried and tested methods. If by religious, you mean spurious, then we're talking about different religions.

Tellner
"Christianity is incompatible with science. So is Judaism. So is Islam."

I'd put it in a different way. Science is incompatible with Islam. You provided two elements to science: data+explanations. Data depends on testable premises and its testability is seen in similar results. Data also depends on the sensitivity of testing equipment. Explanations are invariably spins based on a perspective of the human conducting the testing.

The problems that Science faced with Christianity before the Renaissance forced it to redefine itself and become its opposite. If Christianity believed, then, science shall not believe. If Christianity said no, then science shall say yes. Interesting then, how a culture which stresses so much on individualism should blanket ban every religion since.

There have been Philosopher-scientists, there have been Animist-scientists, there have been Christian-scientists, there have been Jewish-scientists and there have been Muslim-scientists. I know nothing about the others, but Muslim scientists have never been persecuted for practicing science on the scales we've seen in the Western world.

Narrue
"When you talk about the Ilmu batin I must admit I don’t know what the Ilmu consists of but the Science and knowledge of Choondu Varma and Noku varma have been around for thousands of years."

This is exactly why I asked for a definition in the first place. In Narrue's definition, Ilmu consists of intimate knowledge of the nervous system while in Raden-Rahmat's view, it is spiritual.

Kertas
After passing some levels, you are able to break ice, and metal pipes with your bear hands. Some higher graded students can even stop your movement just by having a look at you!

I'm sorry, brother Kertas, I wanted to reply with something intelligent but I couldn't get past the 'bear' hands comment. :P

Gajah Silat
"So could we say it's a mainly Christian art or an art predominantly practiced by those who are nominaly Christians."

Not really, unless there was a priest who founded a style, which is basically what most silat talk about when they claim an Islamic influence, that there was intervention by a Muslim scholar.

"It seems to me that the emphasis on religion and dawah is much more prevalent among Malaysians than Indonesians. On the whole I think there is a much more tolerant nature towards other beliefs in Indonesia(most of!)."

I disagree. The emphasis on Islam and da'wah in Malaysia is focused more towards present Muslims (and not to proselitise new reverts), whose faith is declining steadily. The daily reversion rate is higher in the USA than it is in Malaysia. In terms of rights of belief of other religions, yes, we do have a lousy track record.

Kembang Alas
"All religion is in the dark ages ... just another socio-political smoke and mirror to subjugate the masses."

I'm sad to hear you say that, brother.

Kertas
"Speaking about meteorite, i met a silat guy who had a thin piece of it injected into his arm for magical reasons."

Believable, though maybe not for supernatural reasons. Certain metals do interact with the human body and the recent fad in embedding gold under the skin to promote collagen production is an amazing justification for the long held Nusantara practise of susuk, though many ulama aren't still sure what to make of it.

"He had a keris with an invisible blade,you could only see its handle."

Hmmmm... and the benefit would be...? Invisible or spiritual? Could you feel the blade by touch? I met someone with an invisible firesword once. He has since been hanged (for other reasons).

"Anyway,have you guys read the Azure Keris on Saiful Azraqs blog? Quite an interesting series based on truth."

Thanks for the free plug :P Shameless, I am.

Salam persilatan,

[Rebo Paing]

Kembang Alas
"All religion is in the dark ages ... just another socio-political smoke and mirror to subjugate the masses."

Saiful Azraq
I'm sad to hear you say that, brother.

You may choose to be sorry if you wish, although there is no need from my POV :).
May I clarify that religion by my definition is man's formal organisation to create a theistic society that more or less follow pre-determined precepts ... based on faith ... meaning "I can't prove it, but trust me ...".

Silat is in this realm.

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat Kembang Alas,

I'm not 'sorry' (as in, "sorry you thought I'm not the best thing that ever happened to you", but that's a different story with a different person) in a cynical manner.

Just sad, because the state of religion, which I had always hoped were founded for the development of mankind, is now seen as an inverse influence. And not because you said it, but mostly because its probably held by many more people than I prefer to believe exist out there.

We agree to disagree :) Perhaps we could restart this thread (it was amazingly civil, though). Raden-Rahmat's question is valid, but needs definition. If everyone is up to it, maybe we could try again. This one's getting moldy.

Salam persilatan,

[Kertas]

Salam Brother Saiful.. and everyone else.

Your reply has most certainly some interesting points. Ok, i'll skip the socio-scientifif-religious debate. The invisible keris my friend told me he used to fight Jinn with. dont know if its true haha..

Regards.

[Kertas]

Kertas
"who is more dangerous? The keris or its owner?"

Metal doesn't kill. People do. Practically, though, the keris is pretty dangerous when wielded by a novice or a master, so my vote would go to the funky shaped knife. You'd be much less dangerous with a stabbing fist.

i am not surprised that you would choose the keris above its owner, as you are are a Keris Lok 9 man.

Narrue
"When you talk about the Ilmu batin I must admit I don’t know what the Ilmu consists of but the Science and knowledge of Choondu Varma and Noku varma have been around for thousands of years."

This is exactly why I asked for a definition in the first place. In Narrue's definition, Ilmu consists of intimate knowledge of the nervous system while in Raden-Rahmat's view, it is spiritual.

I noticed that the spiritual aspect of silat tends to touch on religious matters, so i wouldnt go further to explain some experiences where reciting invocations actually do work!

i could however benefit from your explanations of Choondu Varma and Noku varma, if you dont mind? :)

Kertas
After passing some levels, you are able to break ice, and metal pipes with your bear hands. Some higher graded students can even stop your movement just by having a look at you!

I'm sorry, brother Kertas, I wanted to reply with something intelligent but I couldn't get past the 'bear' hands comment. :P

OOooops.. or malaysian would say UDUUUUUUUUUUUHH!! hehe sorry i mean Bare hands :p

"Anyway,have you guys read the Azure Keris on Saiful Azraqs blog? Quite an interesting series based on truth."

Thanks for the free plug :P Shameless, I am.

Salam persilatan,

It almost seems to me as if i know who the narrator of the story is. Is he yourself? :woo:

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat Kertas,

To a large extent, yes, but like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle who was quite different from Sherlock Holmes (and why wouldn't I like to be compared to him? It's a goal, isn't it?), I don't share some of Saiful's opinions and thoughts, but I have held them before and I do know people who think that way.

Salam persilatan,

[Kertas]

Oh ok... i thought that much. i just wanted to note that my coments are typed with my previous Quote box.

[Rebo Paing]

Salam hormat Raden-Rahmat,

I want to contribut to this discussion. Unfortunately, I am confused by them term Ilmu, which in Malaysia, generally just means knowledge. I don't know if it has an Indonesian context that is lost on many young Malaysian pesilat (myself included).

Would you define it for me?

Ilmu in Indonesian and Jawanese means knowledge.
However "knowledge" can have many levels depending upon the person or how a group contextualises it. Ilmu batin is knowledge of a spiritual level and is also found in various aliran and perguruan. Sometimes even in families there are aspects of old style ilmu that becomes redundant ... and families move on to new understandings ... from an anthropological perspective this is sad maybe ... I know this on a personal level, but silat is about passing on the skills of survival, among other things ... and I will teach my sons to be practical first rather than teach them something I don't have faith in such as ilmu welut putih for example which is supposed to allow one to escape bondage. The basis of the ilmu that I know of in my family is beyond Islam, yet it did in my Eyang's time encapsulate the flavour of Islam as well. It was very Jawanese in any case :).
Ngelmu or the path we follow to knowledge is always practical, but the problem is ... how do you define practical? Each generation is different.

Merdeka!

[Rebo Paing]

What happened to my caps? Is there some sinister ilmu at work here? :)

[Rebo Paing]

On your blog Bang Saiful, you expound the motto "Alam Terkembang Menjadi Guru" ... the result is real lessons from each of our own specific universe's have to impart on us if we can listen and learn. Ilmu thus gained means very different things to different people.
For some it might be learning how to handle a person with too much liquor, or how to perform in close combat etc ... to others it might be more esoteric, but the meaning is clear that we are each our own adventure, we think for ourselves and not be lemmings ... so true ilmu is personal ... not what someone else has said is knowledge.

Nice blog BTW :).

[Narrue]

It is true that at different stages of our lives we have different levels of understanding and something’s which we thought useless may at a later date become useful with new knowledge. On the other hand some techniques will always be impractical in a fight situation (Silat). An example, a fight brakes out and you open your palms and start to whisper a verse out of a holy book into your palms to give you strength, before you are even finished someone has already kicked you in the head.

Fights are not battles and they are not planned, you don’t have time to recite your favorite verse of the Quran or do some complex magical performance designed to give you strength. Those types of techniques will always be impractical regardless of a higher level of understanding because time dose not permit it.


Having a piece of meteorite pushed under your skin or wearing various gem stones will also not give you any extra power. I met someone who thought wearing an opal stone on his finger would protect him, another who had a copper knife said it would make the person invincible…..superstitions and no truth in any of it.


A false prophet is always an ignorant man and he will always hide behind mystery. Dress in a manner to attract attention, go in places where he can get the opportunity for others to hear his word and gratify his self importance. When pushed for knowledge he dose not have, hide behind mystery or talk about his masters and in that way give importance to his word. He usually hides in small circles of people whom he personally selects not based on their knowledge but based on their ignorance, he dose not want someone who may challenge or worse still prove him wrong in front of his followers.
He says the knowledge he posses is too profound to find words in the English language to describe, in this way saying the English language is primitive and his thoughts are far more complex. He is almost always a fanatic and preaches the vast superiority of one religion or system over the others. He is almost always an empty barrel making loud sounds. He is never the follower of the middle path, the path between extremes.


Many a useless technique or knowledge originates from such a man and is based on ignorance and passed to the ignorant. The fact that they still remain and are practiced says nothing about the validity of such things.

[Narrue]

The keris is constructed using scientific knowledge, it is employed using scientific knowledge and the true Ilmu are likewise scientific and work on laws of nature.


The Ilmu I talk of is not based on a knowledge of the physical nervous system, it is not as simple as a physical strike to a pressure point (varma ati). Perhaps it’s better if I sneak in a large quote here which better explains the science:



“One day my master came to my house. We were relaxing in my house chatting, when my master pointed to a **** and asked, 'Why is it standing still?' I said, 'I don't know.' So the master told me to throw some stones at the ****. I obliged him. But still the **** stood there. I went to catch it. It would run a few feet, and then stand still. My master teased me, 'Why can't you catch it?' In this way, I saw that my master could control everything”


I cant say **** because apparently the software identify s it as rude, lets just say a male hen lol

“To develop the mental power (manasakti) to be able to attack these marmmam, one must undergo brahmacharya and fasting for 48 days. During that period one can only take water of the tender cocoanut...One who learns this can never think ill of others. You have to develop the utmost patience. During this period, one must repeat a special mantram lakhs of times. This is called yoga mantram and once it is accomplished, any of the 32 yoga marmmam may be attacked simply by pointing”

Phillip B Z



This knowledge has been known to masters in India since Vedic times. There are still masters in India today who know this science. The knowledge originates in pre Islamic times and can be proven (luckily Indians have a practice of keeping written records of everything, Sanskrit palm leaves).


This knowledge was in Indonesia before Islamic teachings began. Its practice has always been secret both in India and Indonesia. When this knowledge was passed to early Muslims rather then have the adet to admit its hindu/vedic origin they said that it was first taught by a Wali, a Muslim saint or great Sufi teacher and in doing so claiming it as something connected with Islam and hiding its true origin.


I know of a master in Indonesia who teaches an art which is of Chinese origin and connected to early Taoist teachings. He discovered that one student was accepting the techniques and teachings but secretly passing it off to others as having a different origin other then Chinese. When the master heard word of this the man guilty of this was literally kicked out of the school by senior students and told not to come back.

[Kertas]

:rolleyes:Narrue,

How do you know if you may or may not be part of ignorant people passing on philosophies which you believe to be the truth?

Thank you

[Raden-Rahmat]

too many diversions and politics ...
the query wasnt on how islamic it is, it was directed at ilmu batin as a whole...no point in debating its legallity yet. though it is welcome but too many detractions. ive just been watching the off sides all the time.
issues about religions in dark ages, then the issue is islamic heritage, then the islamisation of things...nay nay nay
all i wanted is do ppl still have ilmu batin and if so, what are they based upon...if it is islamic...then help us ere and tell us the link to islam...also if not, explain how it is applied in your silat, whether mental spiritual or whatever...
just because i wanna know what teachers are teaching about ilmu ...
simply

[Raden-Rahmat]

look simply this wont answer the question. science is not going to answer and to the person who said that religion was backward or whatver, lets just say the modern medicine was taught by the dark aged saints of Islam...not even the scientists knew the composition of the cell found within us...until Ibn Arabi stated his encounter during a spiritual journey into the cell where he disclosed its complete makeup...and to this pppl use his definition and explanation of it...so too was the watch designed by arabs from the dark ages, so too the gun...what more of the dark ages are we benefitting from today.

ilmu batin is a science...i ask the questions about experience and understanding of it because ppl are exposed to it on a daily basis and theres no denial of the genie because they are there...why not play around and see ... im sure you would not want to.
but the ilmu batin i refer to is the sufi tradition and was not borrowed from other belief systems. though there are things borrowed because there was no detriment to faith. in the life of our Prophet (upon whom be peace) he used this ilmu batin in various situations. at times he was invisible and times he was provided with aid to overcome things like poison, like harm etc. now its easy to say that the power comes from the ayat of Quran but has anyone been explained how it works. cos if reciting something takes away partial vision and you actually see whats behind that person (him being invisible) it means he has advantage in a battle...ofcors his position must be one of being oppressed...so as to gain the divine help. strength firstly always comes from the Super Power and that is the All Powerful God. No dispute. if your recital of any prayer or sacred verse gains you extra help above your normal power, then surely your position is again advantageous...this i think is enough to prove ot works. why ppl use it and why it is given at the "end" of the beginning of a different part of your training is because it works the same with spirituality...development of the self determines the levels you reach. thus it is entrusted to those who are responsible...and in sufism, these things apply only in correct and legal situations. these days we have ppl looking skew at these things because everyone seems to have developed a materialistic approach...if you trust your teacher then trust his teaching....no point trusting him partially...ive learnt you get partial results that way.
and i must pay tribute to the Vedic okes...most of their teachings are great stuff...i havent read ll about everything but if its not detrimental to faith then its ok...its good. Islam wasnt born out of nothing...thigns were just altered to suit the adherents in a suitable system. nothing else. no foreign things. this isnt meant to debating about an islamic claim, just always restating that Islam had influence and still has. there is no negativity about islam...just how ppl percieve things is always of question...

enough said...id like to read some useful things after this if any of your gurus have the ilmu batin, ever used in class or outside, whether told as in an experience or just an experiment or whatever...but tell me something i can learn more from...


DOES YOUR SCHOOL HAVE ILMU BATIN AND WHERE IS ITS HERITAGE AND HAVE YOU HAD EXPERIENCE OR YOUR TEACHER OR ANYONE YOU KNOW

[Narrue]

ilmu batin i refer to is the sufi tradition and was not borrowed from other belief systems. though there are things borrowed because there was no detriment to faith. in the life of our Prophet (upon whom be peace) he used this ilmu batin

If the Ilmu is as I described (distance fighting) then I have already said its origin and what it is, if it is a different knowledge then I dont personally know of it and a clarification of what Ilmu batin actually is would be needed.

[Rebo Paing]

... ilmu batin is a science...i ask the questions about experience and understanding of it because ppl are exposed to it on a daily basis and theres no denial of the genie because they are there...why not play around and see ... im sure you would not want to ...
<snip>

Ilmu batin = Science ??? You must be from another planet.
Well ... the original topic starter question was about "ilmu", which is just knowledge ... and now it's "ilmu batin", which is spiritual knowledge. It helps to say what you mean and mean what you say.
Everyone has their own spirituality. The problem with organised religion is that historically if you disbelieve the consequences have been dire. A religion's place is in the dark ages because it seeks to control by coercion ... if you don't believe you will be cast into the deepest depths of hell etc. ad nauseum. Religion can take a flying jump :rolleyes:. Spirituality does not require religion, the concept of GOD is a mind creation, but who says what the mind creates cannot be real? It depends upon which reality you subscribe to.
but the ilmu batin i refer to is the sufi tradition and was not borrowed from other belief systems. though there are things borrowed because there was no detriment to faith.
You contradict yourself in the very next sentence of the same paragraph.
Sufi tradition existed long before Islam, Christianity or Judaism. It is just another idea that has become part of Islamic tradition.
Just like human movement ... where different aliran who think they're unique discover that when it comes down to movement there is little that is actually unique ... spirituality in humans resonate in broad agreement, and has been so long before the non tolerant Middle Eastern Judaic version of theism began it's many quests for world social and political domination.
Organised religion IS about power, pure and simple :yeleyes:.

BTW ... the topic of spirituality in Silat has been done to death on this forum. You bring nothing new to the table ... just a bunch of ho-hum.

[Rebo Paing]

If the Ilmu is as I described (distance fighting) then I have already said its origin and what it is, if it is a different knowledge then I dont personally know of it and a clarification of what Ilmu batin actually is would be needed.

Narrue,

Ilmu = knowledge

Batin = soul

Ilmu Batin is knowledge of the soul or that which is spiritual or permutations there-of.

Cheers.

[Rebo Paing]

...development of the self determines the levels you reach.
You are correct, yes it does.
thus it is entrusted to those who are responsible...and in sufism, these things apply only in correct and legal situations. these days we have ppl looking skew at these things because everyone seems to have developed a materialistic approach...
Predictable response ... "oh you must be a materialistic shallow person because you don't see the TRUTH as I see it" ... that's been the catch cry of organised religion for millenia.
if you trust your teacher then trust his teaching....no point trusting him partially...ive learnt you get partial results that way.
Really? In the spirit of friendship and silaturahmi, I advise that you learn to develop and trust your own instincts first ... but make sure they truly are your own ... and not a load of garbage piled on top of existing garbage ... because all that's produced then is a full load of rotting garbage.

Wassalam.

[Rebo Paing]

DOES YOUR SCHOOL HAVE ILMU BATIN AND WHERE IS ITS HERITAGE AND HAVE YOU HAD EXPERIENCE OR YOUR TEACHER OR ANYONE YOU KNOW

Yes it does have ilmu batin, and yes I do have experience. It comes direct from one of the Wali Songo, from Shyek Siti Jenar who was a Jawanese sufi.

He taught that God is of our own creation, that organised religion obfuscates what is real ... it is an entrapment of the mind. He taught that to understand reality you had to ask and answer the question ... who and what am I? IMO, very similar to Jnana Yoga.
Typically he was seen as a heretic among the rest of the Wali and was assassinated :rolleyes:.
His teaching is Kejawen (the way of being Jawanese) ... which incidently has also absorbed some of the Judaic Islamic influence. Silat is a sub-set of Kejawen, not the other way around. Maybe more appropriate to say humanity instead of kejawen.

Manunggaling kawula kalawan Gusti does not mean necessarily become one with god ... it can also mean become one with the true nature of self which is the source of all, where the concept of god is created within the universe we each create with our mind. The mind is a trickster. The original Loki.

As I know it, this way of understanding flows through my family silsilah.

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat everyone,

Wow! Back on track we are! And at last, definitions to work off.

Kembang Alas
"Ngelmu or the path we follow to knowledge is always practical, but the problem is ... how do you define practical?"

This is just the problem, I suppose. Because Ilmu is so personal, the threshold of acceptance of proof is also personal. Someone living in the confines of a particular worldview will easily accept correlation as causation. If it was immediately practical and repeatable but unexplainable, it was still accepted as true.

For example, every time you put in caps in your posts, they disappear. Immediately practical and repeatable but equally mysterious. Once you understand the Major mechanism behind it, and it loses its mystery, does it then become Ilmu, or was it already Ilmu to begin with?

Another example, my mother is extremely practical and rejects quite a bit of traditional Melayu methods (us being an extremely genetically confused family). My wife's family is the exact opposite. So, watching each grandmother dote on my 48-day old daughter is interesting.

Hiccups are cured by my mother with a drink of water, while the same symptom is cured just as quickly by my mother-in-law with a wet thread (most probably sourced from Indian culture).

Stomach 'wind' is cured by mother's ever reliable gripe water, while dad-in-law does it faster with nothing more than an unintelligible jampi.

For each of them, these tips are practical, repeatable and unexplainable (my mother being neither a doctor nor a chemist), and my mother-in-law just says, "as long as it works..." They've accepted the mechanism of these methods as something unimportant to know, and lower their threshold of proof. As for me, I'm just enjoying watching it happen.

Is this Ilmu?

Thanks for visiting my blog.

Narrue
"An example, a fight brakes out and you open your palms and start to whisper a verse out of a holy book into your palms to give you strength, before you are even finished someone has already kicked you in the head."

I can't argue with that. But I can say that quite a few of these methods are supposed to be amalan, daily practises, not on the spot applications. One amalan I got was a daily bath (I.am.not.kidding.okay?) with water that had a specific sequence of ayat recitated into it.

It's a supplication to Allah to protect you from dangers analogous to those faced by the Rasul Ulul Azmi (Five Great Prophets), Nuh-protection from floods, Ibrahim-protection from fire, Musa-protection from unjust rulers, Isa-protection from persecution and Muhammad (Peace be upon them all) -protection from all dangers. As with all prayers, it's difficult to quantify its efficacy, but people who use it swear by it.

"The fact that they still remain and are practiced says nothing about the validity of such things."

According to Mas Kembang Alas, Ilmu is a personal thing, and I attest that its validity depends on your threshold for proof. I agree that there are Ilmu that doesn't work, but I speak of those that are believed by its adherents to actually work again and again, simply because they have tested it.

Nevertheless, I think we agree on the same things, just different versions of them.

Raden-Rahmat
I think I know where you're coming from now. Ilmu in this sense is Ilmu Batin to you?

In Malaysia, Ilmu Batin or Kebatinan was purely spiritual, meaning it was taught for the development of the soul. It had all the hallmarks of Muslim sufism and was synonymous with it. However, in the 1950s, this term began to be used to refer to Hindu, Buddhist and Kejawen methods brought in by Indonesian migrants.

The mix became so convoluted under this one moniker that Muslims began to assume that the methods were of Islamic origin. This caused several problems with blanket banning in the 1970s which took down famous perguruan such as Nasrul Haq.

My research at the Malaysian National Archives proves that the National Fatwa Council did not were not unanimous in their recommended action and neither were the Muftis who recommend a ban in the majority. It was recommended to the government to conduct further discussions with the group, but the government banned it outright anyway.

There is still a strong following for Nasrul Haq, although now splintered.

Sufi sheikhs since then have sought to distance themselves from the loaded term of Kebatinan or Ilmu Batin and have instead used Ilmu Rohani or Kerohanian to describe their teachings as uniquely Islamic.

Today, this is how the split is viewed by the public, that Ilmu Batin is vague and obscure, while Ilmu Rohani is Islamic and based on valid sources.

Now, to answer your thread starting question, here are some of the 'Ilmu' I've collected over the years. I've decided not to mention where I got them from, as most often, that is part of the amanah with those I took it from.

1. KHYA'S-A recitation (I abbreviated it, but Kertas will know what it is) from Al Qur'an to subordinate an enemy or superior.

2. Sirr x 3-A recitation for protection against fire to self and property.

3. Mandi Silat-A daily bath with water which has been recited with key verses from Al-Qur'an.

4. Pelangkah-Specific sequence of actions to take before stepping out of the house to protect from danger.

5. Element check-I got two different methods, one more complex and one faster one, to check the amount of damage or injury you would receive if you decide to engage in the upcoming or immediate combat. (Decision making tool, to fight or fly...)

6. Penderas tangan-A ki'ai-like shout to blur your strikes.

7. Penderas kaki-An additional area to wash during wudhu (ghusl) to blur your kicks.

8. Syahadah Nabi Daud & Jabat Besi-Two different methods with the same effect, control over metals and their effects on you (incisions, burns, impact, etc)

The ones I've put up here are those that have no direct correlation between the method and the supposed effect. There are other amalan that fit Narrue's definition of Ilmu better, but I'll keep it in just so I can keep contributing to the thread.

Salam persilatan,

[Rebo Paing]

Once you understand the Major mechanism behind it, and it loses its mystery, does it then become Ilmu, or was it already Ilmu to begin with?

Ilmu (knowledge of any sort) requires that there be a knower and that which is known.
Ilmu therefore is the sum total of a particular understanding, that which is born of the observation of the something by the someone. Ilmu removes mystery, and replaces it with a working certainty (and yes ... this is subjective as well).
The value people place upon that knowledge (the ilmu) is not universal because it is subjective. It will always be subjective, because the knower creates their own reality.
For example, in my reality, it is impossible to know the essence of silat until one realises that the individual is responsible for their own reality, and the choices we make are invariably conditioned by our judgment that grows in correlation to the effect the distortions of the mind have on our perception. Investigating who "I" am is a path to find the source of knowledge, not because someone said so, but because who "I" am is the beginning of all journey's to remove distortion. The only answers that come forth are negations until we get to the point that we don't reliably know for sure ... when the mind accepts that, it knows that it's modus is subterfuge. Stripped of distortion ... at least minimised of the habitual baggage ... life, which includes our personal expression of silat will become responsible to itself. We remove the stilts and walk on the ground with our own feet.

[Rebo Paing]

"Do you incorporate Silat Kuntau Tekpi into your Pekiti-Tirsia practice?

The short answer is yes, but you have to view Silat in its proper context. Just like Kali, there are styles and there are systems, and they can vary greatly from one to the next. Generally speaking on the physical level, you can blend silat techniques with other martial arts pretty smoothly if you know what you’re doing. On a philosophical level, what I have been taught in terms of the combat rationale of Silat is very different from Pekiti-Tirsia. I believe Silat is a cultural/religious expression first and foremost. In my experience very few Indonesian and Malaysian pesilat consider themselves “martial artists” the way people here think of themselves. Silat is a component of their way of life - it’s not the Way itself. This context is missing in Silat in the United States.

So is it cultural or religious?

Both. Traditionally, Silat informs the way you relate to your religion and your community. I don’t know if we need to import all of the cultural decorum associated with Silat in Malay lands, but it would be nice if we could use the traditional model to create something of that here. That’s what I’m trying to do with my students.

It makes for better students?

It makes for better human beings."

The above quote was taken from http://balisongplayer.blogspot.com/ and is the post of Mas Jeff Davidson of an interview he did and reflects a mature understanding (I hope he doesn't mind me using it here).
It is IMO very close to the reality. Silat at its foundation is not a "sport" or a "hobby", but a survival ethic. A pesilat is a "martial-artist" only so far as he is involved in a personal struggle to understand his own reality. It is martial because it involves struggle. A pesilat is the searcher for ilmu, the struggle is also jihad but as is evident by now the interpretation is wide and varied.

[tellner]

Oy. This is why I periodically peek back here and then go away for a few months. It's no longer Martial Arts Planet. It's become Muslim Arts Pundit
:(

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat,

Ahhh... Mas Kembang Alas. Quoting my brother Jeff will get you everywhere with me :) I agree 100% with both of you and this proves we're still on the same page.

Tellner, it was nice having you here again. See you in a couple of months? :)

Salam persilatan,

[Rebo Paing]

Oy. This is why I periodically peek back here and then go away for a few months. It's no longer Martial Arts Planet. It's become Muslim Arts Pundit
:(

Considering that I'm not religious and that there has been equal input from non Muslim's in this discussion, I fail to see how you can come to that conclusion?

Your own description of how silat fits into your personal cultural ethos is acceptable as well ... we need to learn and adapt on both sides of the fence IMO. I particularly like this explanation, except 'Him' means you are guilty of gender bias ...
http://www.venganza.org/him2.jpg

Quoting my brother Jeff will get you everywhere with me :) I agree 100% with both of you and this proves we're still on the same page.

Maybe in the end we are all on the same page ... although we seem to experience tunnel vision at different times on different paragraphs on the page IMO :).

[tellner]

The comment wasn't aimed at you. It has to do with the tendency for most discussions to devolve into theology.

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat Tellner,

I understand your frustration, but I think this particular thread was instructive. It just got lost because of a lack of definition of terms and stray comments that could have just been left alone.

And because of that, it's my opinion that the thread actually evolved into theology.

Salam persilatan,

[Kertas]

Ilmu Batin... ok, you guys have explained it in your terms. Allow me to say that both words are Arabic in origin. So are many many words in the Melayu dictionary/vocabulary.

Ilmu in arabic is I'lmun/Al-I'lmu - knowledge/science. Batin in arabic (Baatin) could also mean Inner. So here in cape town, we still use the words in its arabic context. Even the word Rohani comes from the arabic Ruuhaaniyy.

The word we use for bad ilmu we would refer to it as Doekum/Dukun werk or Sihr, meaning Black magic works.

I hope that would clear up some things. Just to note to all that the malays in Cape Town were separated from our homelands in Indonesia for more than 2 centuries. We have lost most of the language. Our parents however still use many bahasa words like Jamang (toilet), unang (invite for wedding), keras (a roudy person), Lanjah (to be confident in knowing your thing), and many more. Some of you might laugh at our pronunciation but we lost the language almost completely.

We have a cemetary which was named "Tana Baru", as the Javanese/indonesian captives or slaves were buried there many years ago. It was considered their new home.

Regards :)

[Rebo Paing]

Ahhh ... now I understand.

Salam and well met brother!

Krisno

[Narrue]

Salam Brother Saiful.. and everyone else.

Your reply has most certainly some interesting points. Ok, i'll skip the socio-scientifif-religious debate. The invisible keris my friend told me he used to fight Jinn with. dont know if its true haha..

Regards.

You know what, I had one of those keris but one day when I was cleaning it the blade fell out of the handle, I just couldn't find it......now I'm just left with a handle........any tips on how to find the blade....anyone?

[Kertas]

Sorry to hear about your loss Narrue. I suggest you get a new keris. Though i know a friend who apparently lost his keris handle while cleaning it. He only has the blade now. You two might wana hook up. Wot you say huh?

[Raden-Rahmat]

salam alykum ppl n gooday to those not using the arabic greeting. i tink wires are crossed more than anything else. I admit my error in stating "ilmu" instead of "ilmu batin". because im of the anak terlupa, we not only were lost but lost alot of heritage too as Abang Kertas briefed the Pesilat Council. to those who felt this was islamic, i stated all points of view of the topic is welcomed but not attitude. to those who felt muslims were contributing, well its not our fault we wana discover the mentality of others n learn from it. to those who have "dark aged" things, pretty much of this era is darker than ever. if dark is classified by the absence of technology or economic development then maybe referred to electric power in cities. and if dark plays around the magician n sorcerer in Arthurs time, then that same darkness is alive today in various formats n templates. And those who feel sciences are not to be sciences and are subjected to certain technical & intellectual laws/rules, then know that everything is a science and an art, whether we accept or not. to those who found it hilarious to treat this as a linguistic gymnasium, it was partly but the plot was in reality off target. to those who felt spirituality isnt religious, its only religious teachis that have expounded on spirituality. as in essence, God is the focus of all beings, n God is spiritual. id say everyone including myself has mited knowledge of the spiritual realm so discussion on it should move to a thread where experts could be sourced too. To those who found it amusing to degrade religions n religious ppl, it is not called for...Above all, every question demands a decent response, not smacks of disrepect n arrogance. it doesnt befit the mature human intelligence to misbehave unwarrant. All i said in the 1st post is, we are here to learn n everyone should explain there situations if they have knowledge of ilmu batin. lets just focus please cos im learning alot so far..especoially from Nadzrin...very well thought at times n sometimes shady. but mostly well researched. Once again. pleased to discover mentality on this issue. btw, Walang Kadung, mind explaining how your ilmu batin is executed and its basis.

[Rebo Paing]

btw, Walang Kadung, mind explaining how your ilmu batin is executed and its basis.

Ma'af lahir batin my friend for anything I said that might sit wrongly with you.
To answer your question above ... through focused meditation on our
nature of who and what we are, during every moment that we have the awareness to focus. This is including directed meditation i.e. walking meditation (walking the circle), sitting meditation ... both are tapa pamrih or meditation with purpose to ngrayang raga or to explore every part of physiology, which opens up our psychology to inspection in the process. The process sometimes gradually, sometimes through epiphany (AM) removes layers of mind clutter, pre-concepts and judgements and brings back into the immediate reality. Being in the now is very important for personal survival :).
Awareness gained loses separation between body and mind ... you will feel the state of every part of the body, while your mind returns to becoming the tool it was designed for with re-aligned with body or ... psychology and physiology are integrated and work in synchronised way ... in this way you become one with reality ... in the moment of forever.

Salam.

[Narrue]

Sorry to hear about your loss Narrue. I suggest you get a new keris. Though i know a friend who apparently lost his keris handle while cleaning it. He only has the blade now. You two might wana hook up. Wot you say huh?

Ok tell you wot, I will purchase the invisible blade, fit it to my invisible handle and sell the complete keris to you.... what you think? It's going to be a bit pricey though because keris like that are so hard to come by these days:D

[Rebo Paing]

LOL ... sounds like you could both start an industry! Invisible keris ... very magikal, the perfect gift for the pseilat in your life who has everything :D.

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat,

Good grief! I can imagine it now... after weeks of waiting, the DHL guy rings my doorbell and hands me an invisible package. After signing it out, I run in and rip the invisible wrapper, open up the invisible box and take out an invisible letter from the manufacturer, an invisible certificate of authenticity and, ahhh... my invisible Semenanjung hulu-ed, beautifully invisibly pamored blade! Just not look at that amazing ganja! That incredibly detailed pendongkok!

Wait... what's that not written on the invisible blade? Must be written in kawi. S-C-H-M-U-C-K?

Eh?

Salam persilatan,

[Narrue]

LOL ... sounds like you could both start an industry! Invisible keris ... very magikal, the perfect gift for the pseilat in your life who has everything :D.



Hey Walang Kadung, what's the perfect gift for someone who has everything?:D

[Rebo Paing]

Hey Walang Kadung, what's the perfect gift for someone who has everything?:D

Weeell ... I haven't actually got an invisible keris just at the moment (got a shipment arriving next week though!) ... but if you'll settle for an invisible blade ... I've got a handle ... it's nearly as good, it's genuine, honest, I got it off Ebay with certificates 'n all... lol!

[Narrue]

Actually the perfect gift for someone who has everything is………………….nothing, or in this case nothingness;)

[Narrue]

Notice how the people preforming these Ilmu techniques are well nourished, is Ilmu some peoples excuse to avoid hard physical exercise?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMSa4YHNW7I&amp;feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hO8yvA3cSE

[Rebo Paing]

Heh Narrue ... you could be right (patting own stomach :D).

Personally though I'm not impressed by this type of kebatinan displays ... just the way I must be wired .. lol. A good pencak duel is much more entertaining!

[Raden-Rahmat]

sounds like those pc games where you cloak your team players...hmmm everything becomes virtual in reality...maybe thats whats implied by virtual reality...hope im not gona get another scientific lesson...

Mas Walang Kadung, no hard feelings, i required answers as i merely wanted to know if contemporary silat places importance on spirituality in anyway and what exactly and where do their allegiances lie...if more than 1 allegiance. btw, im very much into the warrior class who stood for our people...the reason im in South Africa is because our ppl fought too but got ditched here because we were too much to handle in prisons in JayaKarta...the movie Fatahillah gave me alot of insight and it was heartening to know that the struggle was fought on all grounds in Nusantara.

To Narrue, u ask whether the ilmu batin school subscribers forego good and hard physical training...let me tell you that our school does place importance on ilmu batin...but you never hear or smell about it unless you've demonstrated your patience in the usual drills and your development in these too...fitness is important to our Cikgu too so you cant escape these...our ilmu batin comes from Sufi lines and there is no option for you to use it in daily circumstances...besides those that would offer you extra defense and less-hurt in a danger situation...however...our school places importance on facing your opponents...not standing on some porch and acting macho...through ilmu...

so those schools who use ilmu without silat i dont know if they are called silat in the first place...

but once again, our Cikgu never even tells you about the kebatinan if havent shown progress in your beladiri...

i cant see those clips from my work desk but ill get to the work internet cafe space and view from there

[Kertas]

Hormat all again.. Just off the hook. Seeing that Mas Radin Rahmat mentioned the movie Fatahillah, does anyone here know about it, seen it or have it? It was screened in cape town at the Indonesian film festival few years back,but since then,not even the indon consulate could find the movie for us. Was that a display of the ilmu hapus? I just like to say that most silat people i came across does not easily have open discussion about the ilmu or kerohanian of their system. If you ask them,they might say its old peoples tales and doesnt exist. Let me tell you that black magic exists in almost every nation. The African people here in south africa use black magic to exploit innocent people and they get away with millions of dollars without a trace. So people shying away from facts while knowing them,could create more harm by not making those around you aware. Lets just be honest and say there is bad ilmu in many silat. And there is a counter to it as well.

[tauhid_87]

Assalamulaikum brothers in silat ..... I agree with you master kertas, they are many people who exploit silat just to make money but their people out there teaching silat for free with ilmu batin . . . I always believe that in order to reach that stages of silat you have the right attitude and discipline to achieve or be given the power of ilmu batin in silat. You must be worthy of it. . . :cool:

[Raden-Rahmat]

salam alaykum again...im sure Mas Walang Kadung knows about this or even Nadzrin...judging from the indepth knowledge displayed thus far

about the fight to free Sunda Kelapa and Batavia was declared Jayakarta (now jakarta)...

[Rebo Paing]

im sure Mas Walang Kadung knows about this or even Nadzrin...judging from the indepth knowledge displayed thus far
Rahayu Den-Rahmat (fyi in East & Central Jawa we abbreviate Raden to Den),
My knowledge FWIW is confined to my silat and my lelaku shaped by my tirakat :).
I apologise that my knowledge of history and custom is poor compared to my illustrious younger brother (Kiai Carita) who no longer posts on this forum. (FYI he posts on Sahabat Silat as Ranggalana. It has an English section also).
The little I know about Fatahillah is that he was from Egypt (his mother being from Pajajaran) and that he helped the sultanate of Demak to drive the Portuguese from Sunda Kelapa (it wasn't known as Batavia yet), which was subsequently renamed Jayakarta.
This was surrounding the period of the dissipation of Majapahit due to the ascendency of Demak and the spread of Islam through the support of Demak via the teachings of the Walisongo.
It is interesting that you have chosen a historical figure from the period in question (Raden Rahmat from the kingdom of Campa - modern day Vietnam). The kingdom of Campa (pronounced chum-pa) and Majapahit had familial ties, Brawijaya of Majaphit had a princess from Campa as his queen. Can you tell us a bit why you chose this historical figure (Raden Rahmat) as your online persona?

Wassalam,
Krisno

[Raden-Rahmat]

nice question, ...nice answer to my post also...u might think u lack history but ur info is accurate according to reasearch. well firstly, Raden Rahmat is foremost of the Wali Songo. 2ndly he is a key player in the way things went until colonisation and resulting in my ancestors being displaced (this doesnt mean im from Champa, just relating history and squashing it to save time...but its his role in the way indonesia developed i associate with him...more in Solidarity and Honour am i with him...it shard to say in words)...and lastly, i admire him so much that before my son was born, during the first 40days of him being conceived, i had a dream where i was approached by a man all in white....his radiance was more apparent than anything else. i was still deciding on a name and he greeted me. he did not introduce himself...he just looked at me as if i knew who he was and he said ''remember his name is Nuruddin...just remember that...his name is Nuruddin..'' and he left and i was dumbstruck...so i kept his name as a memory of the dream and due to my allegiance to the wali songo and my ppl of resistance ...which ofcors Mas W.Kadung is of no doubt still part of...btw, if you are wondering ... Raden Rahmats name is Nuruddin ar-Raniri (i believe raniri to be Rander a place somewhere in India??? )...i stand for correction again. but thats what it is and he still remains my Icon...cos Ipod doesnt have any value to my soul lol...:topic: lol

[Kertas]

Sigh.. Wish i also had a very interesting Nick that everyone could be marvelled at. Just in case anyone wants to know, im Kertas.,Wang Kertas (like Bond... James Bond).

[Rebo Paing]

Den Rahmat, thnx for sharing :). In Jawa another name we have for Raden Rahmatullah is Sunan Ampel who spread his influence from Surabaya (it is the capital city of Jawa Timur province). I have not heard of his name as Nuruddin though .. so thnx for expanding my knowledge!
Sunan Ampel was like the leader of the of the Wali according to the Babad Tanah Jawi (the Legend or History of Jawa), if I'm not mistaken.
It's true that in Jawa there is disagreement of who is part of Walisongo ... and even if songo refers to the number 9 (Jawanese) but could be Arabic tsana which means those who we praise (yang terpuji) ... or even the Sansekerta asana which we interpret as indicating the seat (of influence).
Some lists include up to 16 wali's while others have 9, but have different people represented within the nine.

Salam,
Krisno

[Raden-Rahmat]

names arent for marvellation, just for referrence...but i better be in the shadow of the ppl who had mercy given to them for eternity rather than having a name i dont even have relation to.

but hey, Mas Walang...i think i wana learn some Jawanese to update my vocab which at this point is Kosong. but thats your choice. about the Wali Songo, its tru the 9 thing is sort of not right but i think interpretations like yours give rise to language research in that period...would be good to know what language was prominent among the kingdoms and also among the communities...hey we are off topic i c...but i admire the work of the Wali Songo and both Sunan Ampel and Susan Gunung Jati are my icons

[Pekir]

Rahayu Den-Rahmat (fyi in East & Central Jawa we abbreviate Raden to Den),
My knowledge FWIW is confined to my silat and my lelaku shaped by my tirakat :).
........
The little I know about Fatahillah is that he was from Egypt (his mother being from Pajajaran) and that he helped the sultanate of Demak to drive the Portuguese from Sunda Kelapa (it wasn't known as Batavia yet), which was subsequently renamed Jayakarta.
..........

Wassalam,
Krisno

I have browsed the literature and internet for information on Fatahillah and the other Wali Songo. It probably will not add much more knowledge to most of you but Fatahillah is known under several names, but one of his more familiar names is: Sunan Gunung Jati. He controlled the area from Cirebon (of which he is supposed to be the founder) up to Banten after defeating the (Hindu?) Pajajaran Kingdom. Some articles on him him state that he is the only Wali who ultimately established a kingdom. Driving out the Portugese from Sunda Kelapa is indeed another feat connected to him. His grave (with the nine doors) is in the Cirebon area. Opposite to his (and his family grave site) is the Gunung Jati which he supposedly had 'built from jati wood' for one of his wives (can't remember her name right now) so she could 'look across the sea' to her native country which I believe was nowadays Siam. Some people have him originating from Paseh, Aceh, some from the Middle East, some from Pajajaran.

[Raden-Rahmat]

Hey Pekir, u have just enlightened me abit there...so dont stop...say it cos someone will learn...im that someone now
ive too heard he was the founder of Cirebon, which became a very strong centre of islam i believe