Let's see yer Gims/Straights

[Syd]

I'm initiating this for those of us who love our straight Taiji swords and or Gims. Let's see those lovely hilts and scabbards fella's and let's have a few words about quality, range and anything else you might want to add.

Here's mine... it's basically a mid range Taiji Sword, not a cheapy and not so expensive that you'd worry. It's 440 Stainless and actually has a beautiful balance, which you can always check for yourself before you buy.

It's made by Art Gladius in Spain from Toledo Steel, BLADE LENGTH: 28 1/2” HANDLE LENGTH: 10 1/4” OVERALL LENGTH: 39” WEIGHT: 3lb 9oz.

The scabbard is marbled blue and hilt sports two Cockrels back to back with a flame of the Phoenix rising from the handles end.

[dashao]

thats a beautiful sword pity i am a beginner but dam thats a nice one

[Syd]

Thanks Guest(Shao), ;)

I'm sure I' can't be the only fella out there who practices straight sword in the entirety of the Tai Chi forum?

[Andy Murray]

Patience Syd, these threads have a habit of resurfacing when you least expect it. ;)

[Spudmore]

Hi Syd

When I started sword practice I bought a cheep sword and was horribly dissapointed - the components of the handle were very poorly fitted and as I changed my grip they wobbled around!

I returned it & bought a Practical Tai Chi sword by Paul Chen. For the cost of a pair of trainers, I have a well made, robust sword that (importantly) is a pleasure to use.

A few people I train with use the Gladus - a nice sword.

Have you tried any of the thinner "performance" swords? Not my cup of tea - I may just be playing but it helps me visualise if the sword I'm using could actually damage wet paper.

The laws in UK make it difficult to practice with anything like a sword so most of the time I use an umberella or stick!

Have you had a look at swordforum.com? loads of info & knowlegeable chaps locking horns :-)

[Syd]

Hey Spud! ;)

When I started sword practice I bought a cheep sword and was horribly dissapointed - the components of the handle were very poorly fitted and as I changed my grip they wobbled around!

I know the exact type of swords you are talking about. The Art Gladius I have is the first and only Jian I have ever owned. I would check out allot of MA stores in my area and I'd check out their Jians (The cheap ones made in China). Yes, the swords wobbled in the hilt, you could hear things rattling when you weilded them, the balance was off, they sounded like they had screws loose and the quality and finish were horrid! Thats why I waited until I found something high quality and solid.

I returned it & bought a Practical Tai Chi sword by Paul Chen. For the cost of a pair of trainers, I have a well made, robust sword that (importantly) is a pleasure to use.

I know of Paul Chens swords, infact Hanwei Forge make an exact same verion as the one shown in your image above. I would agree that weilding a well built sword, well balanced and solid in construction and finish really adds to the experience of form work.

A few people I train with use the Gladus - a nice sword.

There are various types within the Art Gladius range. The one I own is no longer in production.

Have you tried any of the thinner "performance" swords? Not my cup of tea - I may just be playing but it helps me visualise if the sword I'm using could actually damage wet paper.

I really don't like the Wushu bendy swords because I can't see how you are supposed to gain any of the training jiben gong from something that doesn't behave like the weapon your training in. Both the Broadsword and the Jian I own are fully weighted.

If you use fully weighted weapons then you will gain the true jiben gong with strengthened wrists and forearms as well as the jing training that comes from playing these forms with full weighted weapons. Thats allot of what is supposed to be occuring with weapons forms including the Spear and Staff work that I do.

The laws in UK make it difficult to practice with anything like a sword so most of the time I use an umberella or stick!

You mean you can't practice in the open with a blunted blade? When I first bought my Broadsword (Ox tail) I had a coffee somewhere and pulled the sword out to look at it and realized I had struck fear into the heart of table 3 just across from me who were staring nervously, until I smiled and quickly put it away. ;) I've had no hassles training swords in open parkland but maybe it's different in OZ.

Have you had a look at swordforum.com? loads of info & knowlegeable chaps locking horns :-)

Yup, great site. I'd like to get a copy of Scott Rodells book on Swordsmanship in the near future. What forms are you doing with Jian by the way, what style? And whats the length of your Jian etc?

Best, Syd

[Spudmore]

Hi Syd

I do the 32 step Yang and am learning a mixed style competition form (though I don't compete).

In leaning the sword I'm sort of playing around hoping some of the form & techniques will stick, some of the stuff on swordforum it's ... well ... out there.

I'm pretty sure the sabre would be a more suitable weapon for me (not that I'm unrefined or anything).

I did a couple of months dabbling with western fencing (foil) and I am struck by some of the similarities regarding feeling your opponents intentions through the blade (listening jing?). Have you come across any comparisons?

Earle (you're one of his - right?) seems to do spear and staff, do you do any of these? I've done some Kung-Fu staff & really enjoyed it but the spear looks awesome.

Keep posting!, Spud

[nzric]

Spudmore - you should move to London - look at the Avengers, the english look to be expert in the art of umbrella swordfighting.

Syd - I was talking to Keith recently about the weapons laws. Swords are illegal but the police turn a blind eye (I've got one guy in my apartment who does japanese swordfighting and always carries three or four swords to and from training, and there's always one or two women doing taiji sword at the park). I think it's more about whether you're concealing the weapon and if you're coming or going from martial arts practice.

[Syd]

Hey Spud!

Sorry I took my times getting back to this post, I completely lost track... as you do.

I'm pretty sure the sabre would be a more suitable weapon for me (not that I'm unrefined or anything).

I do the Yang Broadsword form with the fajing and leaping strikes. It's an amazing form when practiced with emotional content. You can ofcourse perform this form as a qigong form, much like you would perform the Yang Cheng Fu long form, but the way Erle teaches it is as a fast form with explosivity. I'm sure you'd dig this form as I usually do it two or three times a day and apart from everything else it's a great cardio workout.

I did a couple of months dabbling with western fencing (foil) and I am struck by some of the similarities regarding feeling your opponents intentions through the blade (listening jing?). Have you come across any comparisons?

I've got my Epee sitting in my shed with all my other weapons. ;) I'm an old Musketeer from way back. I think there are amazing similarities in the approach of western fencing arts to the Chinese arts and infact I find some
very interesting parallels to striking with fajin to fencers shuffling up the piste when striking. The use of the waist and driving off the back leg whilst shuffling through with a whipping action is uncannily similar. The jian however is a different art with supreme subtleties.

E(a)rle (you're one of his - right?) seems to do spear and staff, do you do any of these? I've done some Kung-Fu staff & really enjoyed it but the spear looks awesome.

Yes I have trained under Erle's system (Known to some at Erlequan these days..:)) and one of my favourite weapons that I am pretty handy at is the short staff or Bo staff. Infact when I began training I supplemented my slow YCF forms with the Short Stick forms which interestingly enough have some sword strike techniques. I have yet to do the Spear form but I do have the Bagua Dragon Pole in my shed waiting to be learned. This form is a really complex, fast, super long and diffcult form to learn. It also takes up a hell of allot of space when performed. I really love wooden weapons like staffs, bo's and walking sticks or canes.

It is said that the short stick form was most likely invented by Yang Shou Hou because earlier generations were forbidden by a Yang family Matriarch from using real spear heads when trainign the spear. What happened was that the spear was possibly shortened at a later date and thus a short staff or Bo staff form was created. It was not something that came down from Yang Lu Chan though, or atleast it cannot be traced or proven, though Yang was said to be a master of Spear. Spear is one of those
central weapons to the development of Jing in Yang Style martial training. It is said that to be without a spear in your Taiji training that your Taiji will be like a house with no furniture. I can vouch for the power and jing training I have gained through staff and broadsword work and aim to train spear after I have trained Jian and Bagua Dragon Pole.

What style are you training in by the way? ;)

Best, Syd

[quartermaster]

as far as this topic is concerned, i have been recommended to look at www.dguertin.com
i think i will have to get one of those bat jian one of these days.

i too like the stick weapons. im hoping to start the long staff fairly soon

[Syd]

G'day Ginger,

What style are you training in? I ask because there is no long staff in Taiji, only a short staff and spear. What part of Essex are you in by the way? I was just over there visiting my relatives.

Best, Syd

[quartermaster]

i study chow gar tong long (southern pyaing mantis) i think the staff is 8' long, not too sure.
my address is chigwell but i live in hainault, between romford and barkingside

[Syd]

Ginger,

My rellies are Colchester area. The Tong Long explains the longer staff. What it doesn't explain is what you'd be wanting with a Jian? This is an internal arts weapon specific to Taiji... you thinking of studying Taiji then?

[quartermaster]

southern mantis includes several different weapons. my sifu teaches straight sword, broadsword (ox tail), 4 staff forms, one of the tridents (tiger fork i think), butterfly swords and iron rulers (sai by any other name).
the others i know of that he hasn't actually learned are the walking stick and the horse bench.
chow gar is an internal system for it's part.

and yes, i would love to experience some real taiji. i especially like the idea of studying both bagua zhang and hsing yi quan, which i have heard described as different styles of taiji, only not taiji.

[Syd]

There may be some dispute from the big three or four of Internal Arts about Tong Long calling itself an Internal Art. I wouldn't dispute that perhaps the system has an internal element like Wing Chun but this is a far cry from being one of the traditional IMA's.

The better known of these are Taijiquan, Baguazhang, Hsing I, Liu He Ba Fa, Yi Chuan and some lesser known arts. Taiji is the most internal of all these arts and Hsing I would be at the most opposite end of the scale.

It seems to me that your teacher may have learned a straight sword form and borrowed it into the system. Straight sword is traditionally a Wudang weapon which features very exclusively within Taiji and no-where else.

Bagua and Hsing I go very well together as do any two combo's of the major internal arts. I hope you eventually find a good teacher and experience the Internal arts from our perspective. There are some excellent threads both here and in the Internal Arts forums that might go further to answer some of these questions.

[quartermaster]

i have heard Chow Gar describes as very similar to Hsing I in terms of how it applies power and straight lines and so on.
it would be interesting to get another perspective on things, of course. I isn't what anyone could call a traditional IMA, it's only been around for about 250 years so it's still very young

i know that the jian is officially adopted into the system, but i don't know when this happened or at what level of the lineage but it seems to be commonplace among many of the more modern arts. i didn't know it was strictly wudang to begin with.

thanks for not doing the typical "no it isn't, you must be wrong" thing that so many do.

[SliqueRICK]

Originally posted by Syd
Ginger,

My rellies are Colchester area. The Tong Long explains the longer staff. What it doesn't explain is what you'd be wanting with a Jian? This is an internal arts weapon specific to Taiji... you thinking of studying Taiji then? jian isnt exclusive to taiji

[Syd]

It is most commonly associated with Wudang in deeper history and Taijiquan these days when it was adopted into Taijiquan (in Yang style atleast) when Yang Ban Hou was taught the Jian by a Wudan Priest. I agree that the Jian has had a broader following in ancient times but these days Jian/Taiji/Wudang all pretty much
go together.

Who else would you say is so famous in their use, skill and historical patrionage of this weapon?

[SliqueRICK]

yes it is most often associated it with taiji but almost every style has the jian xingyi bagua hung ga bak si lum just to name a few

[Syd]

How often do you see Shaolin (Silum) Hun Gar or others such as Bagua or Hsing I practicing straight sword routines, or are well known for their routines/forms in comparison to Wudan and Taijiquan? Subsequently the Yang Style Jian form is actually a Wudang form. The fact is that all these other styles that seem to have straight sword forms are not known for them either historically or tradtionally. This is the realm of Wudan and Taiji not cause I say so, but because it's just the way things are.

In any case if you provide me with a list of form numbers and posture names for the straight sword forms practiced outside Wudan and Taijiquan I should be most interested to see them and have at the analysis.

[David]

I have photos of the grandmaster of Chow Gar doing straight-sword form. Not one of them is a good picture though because the sword blade is held flat and is too thin to show up on the pictures. They used to be on my webby but my webby is down.

He also practices the curved broadsword and we have forms for that, too.

Syd, if you can tell the difference between taiji fighting and southern mantis fighting, you win a prize, and another prize for matching the internal practice of WingChun to southern mantis' methods! I've done some wingchun and taichi during my mantis time.

Rgds,
David

PS I'd love to learn straight sword :)

[Syd]

Hey Dave ;)

Let's see here, it's getting interesting now and we seem to have given birth to a much broader discussion of Jian. I'd like to see those straight sword piccies in any case.

It is the case that in Ancient time the Chinese carried straight swords into battle but they were later replaced by Broadswords because they were cheaper to manufacture and the Jian became more of a gentlemans weapons and the sign of a scholar. My point at the end of the day is that the Jian is widely known and made famous by Wudang and Taijiquan styles and practice and is not known and asociated with other styles including external styles.

Due to the fact that Chinese armies did battle with straight swords it is a given that a broad following and group of styles must have been known and practiced at a certain time. But it is commonly known that Wudang was elite in it's development and practice of Jian and straight sword skills to the point where they essentially eclipse any other styles use of the weapon, besides Taijiquan from ancient right up until modern times.

Another interesting point to be made is that the way an external stylist might weild a Jian would be something quite different from the traditional Internal schools like Wudan and Taijiquan, so much so that we might as well be talking about different things altogether. For example to a Taiji fighter a punch is not just a punch and a strike is not just a strike. External systems have their own method of weapons usage and I have yet to see the common practice of Jian made famous by other styles in the way that Wudan and Taiji have.

Ofourse I will concede other styles may well practice a straight sword form of some type. I was talking about Jian within the context of the forum title... namely Taiji and the internal arts.

As to Southern Mantis and Taijiquan... I'm going to have to ask for a prize then. *L* I do see a difference and though I think I understand your point, you won't find Taiji people I know and deal with agreeing either, there are still too many differences in applications and techniques.

I will concede that there are certainly more similarities between Chow Gar and Taijiquan than there are between Taijiquan and many other styles, but at the end of the day people deeply contest differences within various Taiji styles such is the importance placed on the nuance of the thing. It's like saying because we are tree's we are the same, but as we all know many tree's take many shapes and all reach for the light in their own ways. Having roots and leaves doesn't make us part of the same family though.

I know they don't say it openly so as not to offend but Erle and my old teacher Keith don't consider Chen Style as Taijiquan but rather more akin to Long Boxing and there are more similarities between Chen and Yang than there are Mantis and Taijiquan but enough differences between Chen and Yang to make any similarities between Mantis and Taijiquan seem like seperate universes. *L*

With regards to Wing Chun and Southern Mantis, I was not saying they are the same, but rather pointing out that they are classed in the same category as arts who may have aspects of the internal compared to Traditional Internal Arts themselves. ;)

BTW*Aren't both Mantis and Wing Chun corner stoned on centre line theory?

Best, Syd

[quartermaster]

mantis has a cornerstone in the centreline theory, yes, but it focusses more on dim mak applications.

Syd, that toledo sword of yours. how much did it set you back?

another thing. I have been referred to DGuetin's site (http://www.dguertin.com/)
for swords costing up to 700 USD. care to offer your thoughts?

[SliqueRICK]

http://www.chinafrominside.com/images/Splash3-32.gif

[quartermaster]

that sword is a lot longer than i'm used to seeing

[SliqueRICK]

hey got any info on chu ga gow tong long tryin to help somone find info

[SliqueRICK]

its a two handed jian
thats bagua but my lineage xingyi has both

[quartermaster]

info is hard to find on southern mantis.
chu gar: there are two schools of thought on this one. some believe it is chow gar by another name. some believe it is another style altogether. i am inclined to think the latter.

try looking on tong long forums (http://www.tonglongforums.cjb.net) . it's a crap forum but it has some basic information

other than that all i can say is look up or ask about another southern mantis and say it's basically the same only not.

[SliqueRICK]

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/masters/sun01.jpg http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/masters/sun02.jpg http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/masters/sun03.jpg http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/masters/sun04.jpg http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/masters/sun05.jpg http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/masters/sun06.jpg

[quartermaster]

if thats all with a 2 handed jian, why are the pitures all with one handed grips?

[SliqueRICK]

thats one handed in those pics its sun lu tang doing xingyi

[David]

Syd,

I've also had a pm about 'revealing' these photos so I'll sort it out over the next couple of days.

Thanks for taking the time to answer so well. Rather than divert this thread any more (I know sfa about swords), I'm pm'ing you a response. You are welcome to start a thread with it/about it/including it and I'll try to keep up :).

Rgds,
David

[Syd]

Ginger,

I am not at liberty to divulge the cost of my Jian but suffice it to say it was a bargain at the time I got it and it was gotten in a clearance for half price.

I have looked online and as I said my particular model is no longer made. You will get various deals and prices online depending on who is selling. Go to the Art Gladius official website and get a basic idea from there.

Personally I wouldn't allow a U.S $700 Jian leave my house, this is in the realm of the Family sword and not the practical sword for general training and use, in my humble view. I would be looking for a sword in $300 -400 price range for training. You can for the above money pick up Jian of excellent build. balance and quality. Don't be lured into buying an albatross cause you'll wear that sucker like a curse.

Best, Syd

[Syd]

Cheers David,

Got your PM's mate, I'll be replying in due course! ;)

Best, Syd

[quartermaster]

thanks syd, good to get an oppinion

[Syd]

Hey guys, as we mentioned Western Fencing before I thought I'd dig out a couple of action shots I took of the Sydney Olympic Epee and Sabre finals... enjoy! ;)

http://www.photo.net/photodb/image-display?photo_id=1327871&size=lg

Here's another...

http://www.photo.net/photodb/image-display?photo_id=1327900&size=lg

[Shade]

Nice pics syd.

Do you think the guy getting hit was thinking 'Doh! Foiled again'

:D

[David]

There are some Chow Gar mantis straight sword shots on the main page at www.tonglong.co.uk.

Rgds,
David

[Eoin Meehan]

I'm initiating this for those of us who love our straight Taiji swords and or Gims. Let's see those lovely hilts and scabbards fella's and let's have a few words about quality, range and anything else you might want to add.

Here's mine... it's basically a mid range Taiji Sword, not a cheapy and not so expensive that you'd worry. It's 440 Stainless and actually has a beautiful balance, which you can always check for yourself before you buy.

It's made by Art Gladius in Spain from Toledo Steel, BLADE LENGTH: 28 1/2” HANDLE LENGTH: 10 1/4” OVERALL LENGTH: 39” WEIGHT: 3lb 9oz.

The scabbard is marbled blue and hilt sports two Cockrels back to back with a flame of the Phoenix rising from the handles end.

Now this is interesting (newbie forum member here!) I did stage combat a while back and we tended to discount the Art Gladius swords as wall-hangers cos we tended to hit the swords of each other.

I've been doing Tai Chi and will be taking up the sword soon - I didn't even consider Art Gladius, but I will not go back to the catalog!

Rgds,
Eoin

[SliqueRICK]

http://www.jiayo.com/videos/bagua_jian.mpg a link to a bagua jian vid

[imawimp]

I may have to opportunity soon to take a tai chi swords class, was wondering what a good source would be for a decent but not horribly expensive sword??

[Chase]

mantis has a cornerstone in the centreline theory, yes, but it focusses more on dim mak applications.

Syd, that toledo sword of yours. how much did it set you back?

another thing. I have been referred to DGuetin's site (http://www.dguertin.com/)
for swords costing up to 700 USD. care to offer your thoughts?
Hi, For years I tried to combine some of the centerline theory of Wing Chun with my Tai Chi because of the wheelchair, & it worked. I practice a Tai Chi sword form, & eeven though I learned with a long blade, I'm much more comfortable with a short one.
Ingat ka, ;)

[Syd]

Now this is interesting (newbie forum member here!) I did stage combat a while back and we tended to discount the Art Gladius swords as wall-hangers cos we tended to hit the swords of each other.

I've been doing Tai Chi and will be taking up the sword soon - I didn't even consider Art Gladius, but I will not go back to the catalog!

Rgds,
Eoin


I think you'll find with any sword manufacturer that there are different qualities of sword within their selling range. You'll have basic lower quality, mid range and high quality reflected by price. The AG sword I bought was high quality for the AG range but not the higher prices you could pay for some swords custom made. I deliberately avoided those.

For me the AG is a ceremonial sword, fully weighted and perfect for the balance and temper of my form work ... not banging around against other swords with. For that, I'd purchase and have custom made a sword that was mean't to be used for that purpose but more than likely if I was sparring with Jian I would do what any sane person would do and use a wooden Jian. If you were making contact with your AG's - and I have no idea what price range they were either, and I assume they were beaters - I'd say you've got the wrong idea about Taiji swords and the practice of Jian.

Theatrical combat isn't really the same thing at all. You can't drive a Porche into a brick wall and be annoyed that it doesn't quite look the same as when you stuck the key in the ignition. I'm very happy with my Art Gladius but each to their own I suppose. Good luck buying a $700 sword and going full contact with it with other swords! :D

Best, Syd