Ninjutsu or Not?

[Freeform]

Not wanting to, and hoping not to, offend anyone, but I'm under the impression that 'real' ninjutsu is one of those arts which has been superceded. What I'm trying to say is that originaly Ninjutsu was a way of life, and that Ninja were basically the SAS/SEALs of their time, and they used all available technology at the time. So would it not follow that in the modern day such schools would have to teach the use of silenced guns and remote controlled explosives.

Just a thoughts.

Freeform

[Kat]

I would have to agree with you.I feel those who are into combat as a lifestyle will not find it at a dojo,they should actively engage themselves within the combat related industries.
However There should be room for people who are after a little more then just combat,and that is what I think modern MA is about.It offer cultural experiences,fittness,health,discipline etc.

[waya]

I do not study Ninjutsu myself (although I may be starting soon) But I have had the opportunity to attend a Bujinkan seminar recently and all the hand to hand applications I saw were extremely realistic (and also practiced in that manner). The students there train with a large variety of everyday weapons that are always at hand, not just the traditional ones we are used to.

Rob

[Andy Murray]

Ah Ninjutsu.

I could tell you about it.

But then I'd have to to kill you!

Excuse me while I dislocate my spine and hide up a drain pipe. Tony Blair should be along any minute...............

[waya]

LOL That is how I felt when I first heard about Ninjutsu.... I have been looking into it for a while now and so far I have only come across one authentic art which is Bujinkan. The rest are some pretty funny mixes of other arts with an added bit of flash to make them pretty... I find those ammusing LOL.

Rob

[Andy Murray]

Do people practicing Ninjutsu think of themselves as Ninjas?
Can you be a Ninja without an operational role?
What makes a Ninja a Ninja?

[Papasan18062]

What makes a ninja a ninja is the way one approaches problems, how they survive. It is not about "operstional" roles, it is not about sneaking in to kill, that's the movies and the entertainment industry. The only way you can know about ninjutsu is to find a bonafide, honest to God, instructor of the art and see for yourself. I don't know where you are located but you'd be welcome to come see what we do at my class (held in my barn and not advertised) some Sunday. Then you could make an informed judgement.
Papa-san aka Ed Martin 13th dan Bujinkan ninjutsu

[Andy Murray]

Great to see input from someone who obviously knows a lot about the subject. Is it possible for you to give us a brief on the common misconceptions held about Ninjutsu...perhaps an article.

[waya]

Papa-san,
Glad to see you in here :-) Look forward to hearing from you in the posts.

Rob

[Freeform]

Papa-san, glad your onboard, could you gives us a desciption as to what your training covers.

Thanx

[waya]

I have been invited to attend another Bujinkan seminar this weekend. I will let you all know what I learn (and land on *ouch* lol) when I get back from it. After the first one I am anxious to attend another.

Rob

[ninjabumon]

Hi,
Papasan is very busy at this time with Japan and Taikai and all. I will see him in Japan and tell him you guys say,"Hello!"

As for your question, I can answer that. Papasan's training is very practical. Ask Rob, he recently came and trained and has now joined my dojo. We train in what is called Taijutsu. It is a martial art that has been proven in war for over 1000 years. We do everything from Joint locks,Nage(Throws),striking,chokeholds,groundfight ing,gun training,as well as ancient weapon training. We adapt with the times though, not living in the past, but growing for the future.
This is an art that is not flashy, but can be very useful against opponents who may be faster and stronger than yourself. With age you actually improve. If there are any other questions, please let me know if I can help.
Country Ninja,
Tracy Crocker

[Freeform]

Interesting, I've been practicing Tai Jitsu for quite some time now, and would just like to ask everyone what the difference between a Jitsu and a Jutsu is (I have my own thoughts on this but I'd like to hear yours).

[Joseki]

Freeform to me the difference is the spelling for you also get Jiu Jitsu Jiu Jutsu etc etc but at the end of the day (and having to correct the way i spell ju jitsu opps ive done it again) the styles have a differant way of teaching the same things like some use forms others use katas we use kihon so its all the same just differant roads, and people can call it Goshin Ju Jutsu or jitsu AHHH its just a NAME (thats me losing my top HA HA HA)

[HKD]

Originally posted by Papasan18062
What makes a ninja a ninja is the way one approaches problems, how they survive. It is not about "operstional" roles, it is not about sneaking in to kill, that's the movies and the entertainment industry. The only way you can know about ninjutsu is to find a bonafide, honest to God, instructor of the art and see for yourself. I don't know where you are located but you'd be welcome to come see what we do at my class (held in my barn and not advertised) some Sunday. Then you could make an informed judgement.
Papa-san aka Ed Martin 13th dan Bujinkan ninjutsu

for those of U that don't know Ed Martin is one of the grate ones, U R talking to a true grandmaster of the martial arts. an old school style instructor that will hurt U for Ur own good, and do it with a smile, no pain no gain. not running a TKD McDojong that will give anyone with the money a black belt.

HKD

[NinjaCultMaster]

I have heard that there is a place in Japan where people still practice the old way of ninjitsu. Hmmm, no one seems to have ever seen it though.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

And you know, there's a great big dinosaur up in Loch Ness too.

[wayofthedragon]

Ahhh, the Loch Ness monster. I have heard of such:D Really!!!!
Never seen it though:(

[Spike]

Of course, there`s loads of them
There`s SilliNESS
and GrumpiNESS
and CleverNESS...
but you need a thistle whistle to get them to come to the surface

[HKD]

U joke about ninjutsu because Ur stupid and U don't know any better.

HKD

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Really HKD? That's nice to know.

So there are real ninjas out there, wearing black, carrying the thousand blades, killing people for money without using guns, and generally being assassins?

[STASH]

Its all Hollywood crap, I'm sorry HKD, but its true.

[Spike]

You`ll find you won`t win many friendson the boards with that attitude.

[HKD]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Really HKD? That's nice to know.

So there are real ninjas out there, wearing black, carrying the thousand blades, killing people for money without using guns, and generally being assassins?
yes and if U studied any martial art Ud know better. :O)
HKD

[HKD]

Originally posted by Spike
You`ll find you won`t win many friendson the boards with that attitude.
no, i just want people to know ninjutsu is a very real and effectice style. no we don't have them flying arround and jumping over buildings. hollywood has made a joke out of a very good art.
HKD

[Jim]

I don't think people were making fun of Ninjutsu, HKD, just that people try to maintain that there are groups out there thinking that they are 'ninjas' or maintaining that they are part of a secret society of assassins.

Governmental security and police agencies are very good at infiltrating organisations that pose a threat to the safety of it's citizens and to suggest that a highly trained group of assassins are out there running basically a terrorist-like camp without being monitored is ludicrous.

[STASH]

I would just like to see some proof that these "ninjas" exist.

[STASH]

OK, lets clarify one thing first...HKD, do you REALLy believe what your saying? That there really are ninja running around killing people? Secondly, do you have any proof?

[Jim]

Further to the 'assassin' group, the thing that bugs me - maybe this should be in Andy's *notorious* rant column - is where people who maintain that they're in these type of groups say that they would join government units/services but that they can't take someone telling them what to do.

They're too dangerous/lethal and if they lose their cool - watch out! I mean COME ON! Do you really expect us to believe that? If you're too wimpy to be told what to do by someone with more experience than you, at least have the dignity to say so.

*Anger building... Can't quite maintain hold on agression... clothes ripping off... Skin... Turning... Green...*

[HKD]

Originally posted by STASH
OK, lets clarify one thing first...HKD, do you REALLy believe what your saying? That there really are ninja running around killing people? Secondly, do you have any proof?
first of all stash, i never said there were ninjas flyng around and jumping over buildings and killing people U did. im just saying ninjutsu is a very real and effective art. this is why i said in an earlier post " all Uve seen R movies and U just don't know any better."
HKD

[Freeform]

I thought that true Ninjutsu was basically a way of life? That all the things taught under the umbrella of 'Ninjutsu' were seperate arts in their own right.

In my experience ninjutsu is just another school of Ju Jitsu / Yawara Jutsu.

Colin

[HKD]

i am by no means a ninjutsu expert. i have met some great martial artest who study ninjutsu, over the past year. and i hate to C people make jokes about it B cuz of what hollywood has done to it. lot of people oin MAP were very rude to ed a few months ago and now he doesn't come to the fourm any more, ed has studied martial arts for over 60 years. and some A-hole yellow belt black belt wanna be who think they know everything cuz they've read a few books talked crap to him. who im sure if it were face to face they wouldn't even look him in the eyes much less talk down to him. these jerks don't know how much knowledge they're missing out on.

HKD

[Darzeka]

Yes Ninjutsu is a way of life and of veiwing life.

Here is a definition of Ninja from the Ninjukai Taijutsu home page.

" It is by no means easy to trace the historical background of the Ninjas, for they did not suddenly appear like the knights of feudal England. It was certainly not a revolution that created the Ninja, but rather an evolution. The Ninja came into existence over a period of hundreds of years, as a natural consequence of the political, religious, and cultural state of affairs that existed in Japan during that period of time. The Chinese ideogram of the word Ninja consists of two separate words:


Nin - harmony and balance
Ja - in essence, 'one who practices' "

In other words you need not do any martial arts training to become Ninjas, that was a by product of the original "mountain freaks" study of the body, mind and interaction with the environment.

I thought I would put this in too, to give everyone an idea of the basic history of the arts.

There are two styles of the Ninja Art being taught today: Ninjukai & Ninjutsu. The two styles base their art on different 'golden ages' of Ninja history. Ninjukai looks to the 8th - 12th Century as the period where the Ninjas most truly live up to the meaning of Ninja as practitioners of harmony - the true naturalists. Ninjutsu on the other hand, looks towards the Tokugawa Shogunate (1603 - 1867) as the Ninja Renaissance, or Golden era of the Ninjas



And don't discount the myths about ninjas jumping backwards up into trees and the like because the mind has extraordinary abilities that seem "magical" (well they are but thats in another post).

Most of these feats can be produced through misdirection and trickery. Its VERY easy to dissapear, I do it all the time. Just wait till the person or people you want to dissapear to loko away then move very quietly behind something and poof you've just dissapeared.

As for the black garb - only on night missions. Otherwise they would have worn anything that would have given them a better chance at hiding - its called camoflauge (any aussie's will remeber that carlton mid advert with the weekend soldiers). Black was only used when moving around unseen at nightime and training.

As for the use of modern weapons where I train it isn't included because the training is meant to be practical and training to use a gun is pointless unless you plan to be able to use a gun in a fight, whihch means carrying one or having one at home. We train in the use of anything that will commonly be around in the situation of a fight (sticks of varyin sizes, knives, etc). While we still train with the sword this is mainly an exercise in meditation, focus and energy.

Meditation.
This is a BIG part of what a ninja is all about (probably the entirety of what ninja is). Meditation helps you become calm and you train (ja) to remain in balance and harmony (nin). This will allow your body to flow seemlessly with the current environment (remebering that an environment is EVERYTHING around you, including people trying to kill you).
I recently spent a day at our annual Ninjukai retreat (my first one and wa sthe follow up to our taijutsu "camp" where we belted the crap out of each other all day and pactised letting go of our techniques.) this retreat was centered on doing nothing, breathing and looking about you to see how you really interact with everything.
I spent an hour sitting on a rock out in the middle of the bush, doing nothing. It was awesome. I felt really relaxed after this day and felt it was beneficial to me.
We also went through some breathing exercises with stretching, reaching for universal chi, relaxing the body, unguided meditation and trying to unfocus.
I won't go through these all now, if anyone wants I could explain them in depth in another thread.

I will just leave you with a few quotes Shihan John Ang asked all us ninjas to think upon. ( I think they are from the Tao Te Ching)

"I see everything, yet I see nothing.
I hear everything,yet I hear nothing.
I smell everything, yet I smell nothing."

"I am noone, going nowhere."

"Man is in a state of waking sleep"

[SilentNightfall]

Hmm... Even though the last post is from all the way back in October, I'm going to bother to reply just to make sure that some of the threads here that are filled with misconceptions are clarified. For all those of you laughing and accusing people of believing that there are groups of ninja out there running around and killing people, you are the ones who are misinformed. No one here has claimed that such groups exist. It appears to be you and your ignorant ways which have lead you to such accusations. The fact that someone believes there are still ninja around does not mean they believe people are running around killing people for money. Why? Just listen.

Historically, ninja were not assassins. They killed if necessary in the line of duty and life went on, but they were not a people who's sole purpose was to get paid for taking out specific targets. I believe during the period after war-time Japan when the services of the ninja were no longer needed, some ninja might have become sort of like mercenaries and then maybe some took up such assassination jobs, but otherwise, assassination just wasn't associated with the ninja. I believe even Hatsumi-sensei, grandmaster of our Bujinkan Ninjutsu system, has tried to stress over the years that people have the wrong idea about the ninja (probably as a result of too many Hollywood movies). Also, as I stated in other posts, ninja did not wear black when wanting to blend in at night. Black stands out when a person moves and looks like one big black blob. I believe I stated that things like light/dark blues and earth-tone colors like brown and green would have been worn. Otherwise, ninja would simply wear the garb of everyday people such as farmers, monks, etc.

Now, it is true that there are groups of people out there who don't study real ninjutsu and run around believing they are ninja. They do dangerous things such as playing around with homemade weapons and chemicals to make things like flaming shuriken or solidox bombs. Definitely the farthest thing from the goal of our art. Do ninja still exist today? I believe so. If one trains in the proper mindset and spirit, then why not? One does not have to be an expert of camouflage and subterfuge to be a ninja. Such things were, as someone mentioned, arts unto themselves until the wide umbrella of ninjutsu. I hope that this helps a bit. And if I were some of you who may have been disrespectful to Ed, I would contact him and apologize while asking him to return to this forum. His knowledge is immeasurable, his heart bigger than that of one hundred men, and his skill far surpasses that of all I have seen or met in my short lifetime. He is truly an example of the modern, living ninja and their values. I would love for him to come back to this board and liven it up with fresh insights and topics. If anyone wants me to convey any messages to him, I'd be glad to when I see him in class next Sunday. This Sunday's class has been canceled for Easter. Well, that's all for now. Take care, everyone.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by SilentNightfall
It appears to be you and your ignorant ways which have lead you to such accusations.

What accusations?

Have I missed something?

All MA are taken seriously here, although we tease each other about our chosen disciplines.

Ninjutsu often becomes a target for humour, and the reasons are fairly obvious.

[SilentNightfall]

The accusations I spoke of were simply those of people saying that HKD believed that people were, in modern day, "running around killing people." Why? Simply because he stated that there were people out there practicing ninjutsu and who might be "ninja" in the true sense of the word. Granted, he might not be going about his argument in the best of ways, but his words were twisted around nonetheless. One thing I do agree with you on, Andy, is there being an obvious reason for ninjutsu being a target for humor. Hollywood... Do I think it's a legitimate reason? Not at all. Hollywood's views and opinions should never be adopted by martial artists, but it happens anyway. Go figure. Well, that's all for now. Hope this clarifies the meaning in my post. Have a good one.

[Andy Murray]

Cheers SNF,

I'd point out that this is a totally open board and we do have youngsters here as well as more seasoned members. Not to say that having 'years' makes you any more coherent.

Yup, blame Hollywood for the jokes about Ninja, but also the media for the jokes about Kung Fu (David Carradine rot in hell), Karate (Ralph DiMachio rot in hell) etc. etc.

This thread dates back to when this forum was a 'newborn'. Most folks have moved on from here already. I know I've learned a lot in that time too.

If you want to expose the world to the truth of present day Ninjutsu, then here's where you do it........on this forum.......by starting a new thread!!!

Reading back, HKD states that Ed (Papasan?) doesn't post here because of the comments made. I find that hard to believe, as most Martial Artists have a thicker skin than that!

Thanks
Andy

[SilentNightfall]

Oh, I also doubt that Papa-san would stop posting here simply because of any comments made about him. Besides, he has quite a few friends here as I have seen from many of the posts. I was thinking more along the lines of he perhaps thought a majority of the people here saw our art as nothing more than a joke and decided to cut back on posting. Of course, I'm not Ed and so I have no idea why we haven't seen any posts from him recently. It's very possible that because he is always so busy being involved with the Bujinkan and things such as seminars that he hasn't had the time to post on all the various boards that he belongs to. I do know that he is always posting on Ninja Club, one of the groups found on MSN. If anyone ever wants to contact him, you can do so through there. I'll have to ask him about posting a few things on this board the next time I see him if I happen to remember.

[Brad Ellin]

SNF, while I have really enjoyed reading your posts and have learned a bit more, you really should lighten up a bit. As Andy pointed out, everyone pokes fun at all the arts listed here, usually because of Hollywood's portrayal of our respective arts and sometimes because of the uneducated making assumptions or someone wanting to make a name for themselves. Please, continue to post and educate, but take other's misconceptions of our art with a grain of salt. I have been trying for over 20 years to educate people about the true essence of ninjutsu, but the reality is, only a few people want to hear it. The rest want to hear the Hollywood version. Fine. Let them. You and I know the reality and those that want to learn will listen.
Bufu Ikkan!

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by SilentNightfall
I was thinking more along the lines of he perhaps thought a majority of the people here saw our art as nothing more than a joke and decided to cut back on posting. I'll have to ask him about posting a few things on this board the next time I see him if I happen to remember.

OK, Ed's only ever made one post here, so I doubt he even remembers this forum, let alone this thread.

The vehemence of HKD's defence speaks volumes for Papasans ability, and I trust Waya (Rob) implicitly.

We now approach 1,000 members, which makes us a significant forum compared to the 200 or so members we had back then. There are many intelligent and well connected Martial Artists here.

Do you think it might be in Ed's own best interests to use this medium to re-educate the MA community, as the ignorance is a result of a defecit of good information?

[SilentNightfall]

Kurohana, I do apologize for seeming a bit...err...tense? It wasn't meant to appear that way. I just felt that if there was going to be a proper posting about the misconception of our art, it shouldn't be one where those who were ignorant on the subject were called "stupid." I merely meant to post what I know as factual, or close to it at least. No hard feelings towards those who don't know what ninjutsu is all about. Heck, no hard feelings towards those that know and still poke fun. Just wanted to make sure there was at least clarity available to those who might be interested since I had seen none prior. Hope all is well now.

And to Andy, I honestly couldn't tell you if it would be in Ed's best interest to use this medium in an attempt to educate other martial artists. I do feel that it would be wonderful just to have him back here to offer insight to any of the threads that pop up pertaining to our art. We all could learn so much. I'm not completely fixated on those who misunderstand our art. I only wanted, as I said, to assure that there was proper information (to the best of my ability) available to those who visit this section of the forum. It's there now and so we can be done with that, no matter what opinions about it arise. I just thought that having Ed post here again would be a definite plus for the content of this neck of the woods. Of course, that is just my humble opinion.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by SilentNightfall
I just thought that having Ed post here again would be a definite plus for the content of this neck of the woods. Of course, that is just my humble opinion.

I agree with you 200% SNf. The site needs to hear a full representation of Ninjutsu.

As I said earlier, feel free to kick off a thread on the subject. I'll personally ensure it stays focussed by deleting stupid comments. You seem to have a good handle on the subject, so I'm sure you will represent the art well. If Papa San returns that's obviously a big plus to all. A submitted article might perhaps help?

In the meantime, please look at the other forums/topics and get involved.

We can all learn something here!

[SilentNightfall]

I agree. There really is a great deal to be learned here so long as everyone participates and takes the right mindset. There is such a variety of individuals on this forum, even in this lone section, that there just has to be immeasurable knowledge to be had. I'll see what I can do as far as a new thread or possible article, but with such a broad range of topics that concern Ninjutsu, is there anything in particular you would like to see posted? I can gather information and put it all together for you all, but I would need something specific to focus on. If I have that, then I'll see what I can do. For now, all the best to you all, and thank you Andy for being able to sort through the confusion and see what my purpose was in my previous posts. Keep up the great moderating job!

[Andy Murray]

You're welcome SNf.

Originally posted by SilentNightfall
is there anything in particular you would like to see posted? I can gather information and put it all together for you all, but I would need something specific to focus on.

Might save you time to simply post some links to sites or material you feel to be representational.

If memory serves, the UK MA press started discussing Bujinkan back in the late 80's, and naturally there was a lot of scepticism.

I also remember one of the early UFC events having a Ninjutsu guy there. Bizarre!

I can only tell you what I want to know I guess.

What is a Ninja? Is it a profession, or just another form of Martial Art?

[SilentNightfall]

Well, first allow me to post a link to what I consider one of the best excerpts on Ninja History available on the net. And here it is:

http://www.winjutsu.com/ninjakids/nk_history.html

Now, as far as what a ninja is, I'll have to take some time on that and see if I can't put my own thoughts and opinions into logical writing. :D After reading the above article, if anyone has any ideas as to what they think a ninja is, please feel free to post it here. It might just give me something to assimilate into my next post. Take care for now, everyone.

[Andy Murray]

Thanks, that's a good start.

So Ninja's were Guerilla fighters I suppose, or perhaps more of a tribe or a regiment like the Ghurka's. Specialised in certain areas. Like a 'Special Forces'?

How does this relate to Ninjutsu today?

Are there clans, and are they organised with purpose, or just groups of people training in Martial Arts/

[SilentNightfall]

Well, as it stated in that excerpt, the ninja were just isolated commonfolk from the mountainous region of central Honshu. It is true that they specialized in such things as guerilla warfare and reconnaissance, for which they are famous, but it also mentioned that they developed highly effective methods of combat, which have been passed down through the years until present day (see Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu, one of the nine schools of the Bujinkan, for instance). It all comes down to the philosophy that the ninja held which makes them who they were and are today.

A ninja has the ability to unite his physical, mental and spiritual side in harmony with the laws of nature. A ninja never holds a grudge when humiliated or denounced, rediculed or slandered. A ninja possesses a compassionate heart and pursues peace and harmony with everything around him. He helps all those around him and protects all who need it. Combine this with the unique and effective combat arts that comprise ninjutsu (which follow the same laws of harmonizing with nature and one's environment) and you sort of have a ninja. It's probably more complex than I make it seem, but you get the general idea.

Who are the ninja of today? I would say those who are still practitioners of Ninjutsu and who adopt the philosophy of that art along with learning its techniques. Am I a ninja? I would certainly be honored if I could call myself one. Until I'm formally told that I exert all the qualities of those ancient warriors, I'll simply be glad to be known as a "ninja in training." :D One thing I do know for sure is that I will forever be a student, learning all the time. Ninja or not, you will never know it all and there is always something new. I hope that this explanation has helped, if only a little. Any other questions? Feel free to keep them coming. And thanks for the interest, Andy.

[Darzeka]

By the translation of "ninja" you already are one -

Nin - harmony and balance
Ja - in essence, 'one who practices'

ninja - one who practises harmony and balance

relating to ninja today this would mean doing whatever you like as long as it stays harmonious with your environment. Society is the hardest environment to stay in harmony with and live happily, what with many people getting offended over nothing and people trying to enforce rules on us.
Ninja would only train with high tech. weapons if there were a use for them - I don't need machine gun training or know how to use plastic explosives, there is no situation I would need them in.

I don't think there are any "secret ninja traing facilities" hiding anywhere or organised clans that act like terrorist groups. This is against the harmony and balance that a ninja will be trying to acheive.

[SilentNightfall]

Indeed, I don't believe there would be any secret ninja clans or terrorist organizations lurking about either, unless of course they didn't really practice ninjutsu and have been watching too many movies. Then who knows? And as far as high tech weaponry, you ae absolutely right. Only train with tools and weapons that you might come into contact with in everyday life Handguns yes, machine guns, no... That's all I have to say for now. Have a good one.

[Seperoth3333]

I think there are still ninjas out there but we dont know about them. There so good at stealth and hiding that we couldnt find them if we tryed. So by chance tere are still ninjas out there we dont know about. Well I just found this site with a ninja sword that they say can cut through meatle. PM or e-mail me if you want the site.

[Darktrial]

Just to let you all know: Papasan18062 posted quite an unusual lie. The highest level anyone can attain in Ninjutsu, Karate (and most likely any other martial art) is 10th Dan (Hanshi).

13th Dan is a complete and utter lie...

To Freeform's question you are correct Ninja refers to a Shadow Warrior, they were the equivilant to the special forces of today thats right. The training nowadays is dojo based, i'd say Ninjutsu has gone from a Killing Art more to a Martial (with philosophy) Art.

However all the principles are still there and it is a very useful art (I study Jinenkan Ninjutsu and Shotokan Karate).

Hope this helped you :o)

[YODA]

Originally posted by Seperoth3333
Well I just found this site with a ninja sword that they say can cut through meatle. PM or e-mail me if you want the site.

I have this nice big bridge that you may be interested in buying.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Darktrial
[B]Just to let you all know: Papasan18062 posted quite an unusual lie.

If I formed my own art called Yoda-do and awarded myself 20th Dan - it may well be bullsh1t - but it wouldn't be a lie.

On a similar note: Someome once told me that there are more 10th Dans in Califiornia than there are in Japan. Now THAT doesn't supprise me - and although at 10th Dan it may well be "true" it doesn't make it credible.

[Freeform]

If your the head of the organisation you can give yourself whatever grade you want. For example Carl Geist heads an Aikido organisation in the USA and is a 13th Dan. Whenever he feels that his students should be graded but are to close to his grade, he ups his before he ups theirs.

And Darktrial, I'd be careful about calling people liars.

Col

I am a 28th Dan Flying Monkey Kung Fu Karate! ;)

[Brad Ellin]

"Just to let you all know: Papasan18062 posted quite an unusual lie. The highest level anyone can attain in Ninjutsu, Karate (and most likely any other martial art) is 10th Dan (Hanshi).

13th Dan is a complete and utter lie..."

Hmm... You might want to tell Soke then. I won't print it here until I find my source again, but Mr. Jack Hoban was recently awarded either 14th or 15th dan. If you go to his web site ( http://www.livingvalues.com ) and click on his bio, the patch you see there represents Judan, and the stars above it one rank each higher than Judan. I know there are only 4 stars, but I recall reading somewhere he was promoted to 15th. And Ed himself is a 13th dan.

"To Freeform's question you are correct Ninja refers to a Shadow Warrior, they were the equivilant to the special forces of today thats right. The training nowadays is dojo based, i'd say Ninjutsu has gone from a Killing Art more to a Martial (with philosophy) Art."

Ninjutsu never meant or translated into Shadow Warrior. You can thank the entertainment industry for that definition. The Ninja were a group of people who were (and are IMHO) more in touch with nature and the elements than the samurai of the time. They worshipped differently than the government allowed, attained their goals by (samurai definition) less than honorable methods. Today, a ninja is anyone who practices the art of ninjutsu. As far as dojo based, so what? My opinion, and take it for that, is that ninjutsu (or more correctly budo taijutsu) is one of the most effective combat arts there is today. Going back to Mr. Hoban, I know that he teaches seminars on taijutsu principle to the U.S. Marines. And that he is on the U.S. Marine Corps Close Combat Review Board (Subject Matter Expert). None of us may do what Takamatsu Sensei did in his youth, but ninjutsu is far from being just a "Martial (with philosophy) Art." It is still a highly valid combat (and you can read that as killing if you want) art, where the emphasis is on preserving life.
Before you call people a liar, do your research a little more carefully.
Just out of curiousity, what or where did you do your research?

[SilentNightfall]

Well, speaking as a student of Papa-san, I can assure you that he has not told anything even remotely resembling a lie. If one is aware of the Bujinkan ranking system, then he knows that Hatsumi-sensei does not follow the traditional ranking system. There are indeed 15 dan ranks in the Bujinkan. Ed (Papa-san) currently holds the title of 13th Dan and Jack Hoban holds the rank of 14th Dan as listed on his website. I don't believe anyone has yet achieved the rank of 15th Dan, and Hatsumi-sensei himself has no rank. As far as everything else and the translation of ninja to shadow warrior, as well as the modern day equivalent of the ninja, Kurohana did an excellent job in explaining it all. I don't believe that I have anything to add there. That's all for now. Have a good one, all.

[sshh]

bringin' back the classics . . .


Saw this old thread hasn't gotten any action in a while. I wanted to bring it back up because it shows a good example of how misinformed people can be about systems they are unfamiliar with.

SilentNightFall and Kurohana have been doing a great job sorting some things out. This is a good all-around thread to ask questions on the misconceptions of ninjutsu and modern ninjutsu-related taijutsu.

I know we have plenty others though.



I just wanted to clear up the erroneous ninjukai definition of nin. 忍　does not equal harmony and balance, it means stealth (discretion; concealment), and patience (endurance; forbearance).

Harmony and balance are important to maintaining discretion and patience though.

[Dale Seago]

Just to let you all know: Papasan18062 posted quite an unusual lie. The highest level anyone can attain in Ninjutsu, Karate (and most likely any other martial art) is 10th Dan (Hanshi).

13th Dan is a complete and utter lie...

(sigh)

Okay.

I'll send my own menkyo back to Hatsumi sensei and tell him he was wrong and should be ashamed of himself.

And I'll tell one of my own students who's been promoted to a rank above 10th dan by Hatsumi sensei that he should send his back as well.

Whatever keeps you feeling secure in your misconceptions.

[oni_sensei]

Well, speaking as a student of Papa-san, I can assure you that he has not told anything even remotely resembling a lie. If one is aware of the Bujinkan ranking system, then he knows that Hatsumi-sensei does not follow the traditional ranking system. There are indeed 15 dan ranks in the Bujinkan. Ed (Papa-san) currently holds the title of 13th Dan and Jack Hoban holds the rank of 14th Dan as listed on his website. I don't believe anyone has yet achieved the rank of 15th Dan, and Hatsumi-sensei himself has no rank. As far as everything else and the translation of ninja to shadow warrior, as well as the modern day equivalent of the ninja, Kurohana did an excellent job in explaining it all. I don't believe that I have anything to add there. That's all for now. Have a good one, all.

Shihan Ed Lomax of Adelaide, Australia holds a 15th Dan. He was the first Australian Shihan, and often teaches a weekly class at the Hombu Dojo.

[Banpen Fugyo]

What a STRANGE coinsidence. Ed Martin JUST posted on kutaki about 15 dans in the bujinkan. Weird....

[LimeyDog]

It states on Richard Van Donk's webpage that he has just been awarded his 15th Dan by Hatsumi Soke...I believe my old Taijutsu teacher Shihan Bill Atkins was around 13th...now there is a great teacher.

Patrick

[sshh]

Ah, they grow up so fast, don't they?

:D