Shin kicks

[Jordan]

Why in the world would you want to kick somene with your shins instead of the instep on your foot which is more used to take blows?:confused:

[Jay]

Because it hurts like mad !

The area that is generally used is lower down on the shin anyway but also Thai fighter's shins are normally conditioned from hours of kicking the pads, so they tend to be harder than most people's.

Jay

[nicolo]

don't get the idea it's always shins. A boxer can kick you with the instep just as well. Unlike the foot, the shin is a hard bone that you can be sure will cause damage. Through countless hours and years of conditioning it can be used like a club to bludgeon your opponent. A thai fighter's instep can be just as conditioned because when you kick something, you're making a lot of contact in that area as well.

[YODA]

Here speaks a person who's never been shin kicked.

Visit a Muay Thai school - dire t eexperience is the best teacher.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Kick with the instep? Against a possibly rigid target?

Depends, do you like being able to walk?

[Terry Matthes]

Shins are just another option should you learn how to use them. Might as well learn to fight with everything god gave you :D

[qbushido]

The shin is also a much more stable structure anatomicly then the instep is. The instep is a comprised of many small bones that all can be damaged eaisily.

[Cain]

Won't it depend n the distance?

Thanx,

|Cain|

[totality]

well, in training, you generally try to hit with your shin all the time. but in an actual match, even when you try to hit with the shin...whatever hits them, hits them.

[peacfulwarrior]

It doesn't take much to break the bones around your instep. If your in the street and need to defend youseld stepping on the instep of your enemy is a good defense. I believe it takes about 14 pounds of pressure to break those bones. I for one would not try to use my instep to kick with.




http://www.martialonline.net/download/gifs/images/combat_10.gif

[nicolo]

Originally posted by peacfulwarrior
It doesn't take much to break the bones around your instep. If your in the street and need to defend youseld stepping on the instep of your enemy is a good defense. I believe it takes about 14 pounds of pressure to break those bones. I for one would not try to use my instep to kick with.
http://www.martialonline.net/download/gifs/images/combat_10.gif

well in TKD do you strike with the instep when doing a roundhouse?

[47Ronin]

Unless you are doing ball the foot rounds house. Then again aren't you wearing foot pads for sparring in TKD?

[Poop-Loops]

Because if you hit the guy in the elbow with your instep/ankle, you won't be walking for a while. :(

Even with instep pads, it hurts like hell. That's why I usually kick a bit higher, and hit them in the arm. 3 or 4 hits like that, and they can't keep it up to guard anymore.

Even though I train to kick with the instep, I can see the advantages to using my shins.

My guess for using the instep is because if you're fighting an armoured opponent (like in the old days), it's easier to aim with the ball of your foot (like for a break) if you're used to kicking with your foot already.

Side note: Don't think you can always block with your elbow. A guy in my studio got hit in the elbow, and it's been swollen for a good 3 months now. Looks like an egg. :(

PL

[TheMachine]

the reason why WTF TKD practitioners use the instep to kick is it is a snapping roundhouse kick and it makes more noise when it hits the armor.

[YODA]

Originally posted by TheMachine
the reason why WTF TKD practitioners use the instep to kick is it is a snapping roundhouse kick and it makes more noise when it hits the armor.


That speaks volumes (pun intended :D)

[Nakthai]

it also depends on what position your foot is in when kicking. if your ankle is entended (makin your leg a straight line) the bone is exposed more and also the painful nerves. But if your ankle is flexed, (making it a right angle) then the muscle "rises up over the bone" and covers those nerves making it almost painless.

[Zabuza]

I got lucky a guy in my martial arts was kickin me and I blocked with my forarm and even with blocking I blacked out for a second, wasn't fun haha, no pads or anything

[streetpunk]

wat about kicking with the ball or heel

[nicolo]

sure if you have hard enough ball or heel or foot, but again it's still your foot. It's nowhere compared to the damaging effects of getting smacked with the shinbone. Especially if you are larger guy with a larger bone structure!
I would only kick exclusively with my foot if I wore boots or at least shoes with hard soles...and I had tremendous piston-like pushing power in my side or front kicks...enough to knock the wind out of someone. There's nothing wrong with using your tip of your boot as a weapon either - just look at Savate.

Think of it this way: you have a baseball in your hands. Now you can either poke your opponent with the end (which is damaging in its own right, but has less surface area), or you can take the whole thing and swing it at him. Which sounds more destructive in terms of physics?

[Poop-Loops]

Ahh, but you see, you're thinking of it wrong.

You can either swing at him with the end of the bat, or with the middle part. Which one is more destructive? The end, of course.

They way we do our roundhouse kicks in TKD is we whip our leg at the target to make a fast kick, then right before the moment of impact, tense the whole leg, and foot, to get power in it.

Dunno how a roundhouse kick would work with the heel. With the ball though, it's usually already hard enough to do a ton of damage, without any conditioning.

PL

[nicolo]

no ur right, the fast point of acceleration is at the foot instep area or more preferably right at the shin area above the foot. But he mentioned ball or heel of the foot, so I thought the kicks that would apply to that would be something like the thrusting kicks (sidekicks, front push kicks, back kicks) or reverse round kicks or maybe the axe kick (good destructive kick too). Kicks that utilize the bottom and blade of the foot. Will these fell an opponent? Maybe or maybe not. But I think you're more likely to cause surefire damage from striking with the shinbone instead of the foot.
The mechanics of the TKD roundhouse is similar to the MT roundhouse, but you have slight differences. I say just nevermind and condition the whole foot, shin, leg etc. Besides your foot and shins should be conditioned anyways just from kicking the bag or the pads alone.

[Poop-Loops]

Back kick is definately the most powerful kick I have seen. I've seen people fly backwards when they got kicked like that, and I've knocked back a few people with sidekicks before. I can also tell from experience that it's easier to break a board with a thrust kick like a side kick over a roundhouse. Roundhouse is probably more useful for combat, but thrust kicks are definately stronger.

PL

[Trent Tiemeyer]

All I gotta say.

[Poop-Loops]

His red shorts draw my eyes :(

http://www.lacombekarate.com/images/rlken-side-kick-sm.jpg

PL

[totality]

the type of power in the two kicks are different though. thrust kicks are more of a pushing action, and thus less damaging. it's like the difference between someone poking you (very hard) in the stomach with a baseball bat, as opposed to someone swinging it at you as it is supposed to be used.

[47Ronin]

PL- are you a guy or girl?

[nicolo]

What happens if you back kick and miss your mark, or your foot slips off the target in the heat of combat? Or if you're trying to back kick a charging 200lb psycho and you're a smaller person?

Let's ask Trainwreck who's a big guy, bro do you honestly feel that a back kick could stop you in a combat situation? Do you feel that the MT roundhouse would do more damage?

[Poop-Loops]

What happens if you roundhouse kick and miss your mark, or he blocks you at the knee or ankle?

Read what I said: The roundhouse kick is better suited for combat, but the back kick is still stronger.

I'm a guy, why do you ask?

Thrust kick isn't a pushing action. It's like a punch, but with your leg. Ever been punched? Hurts, don't it? Besides, the bat, like you said, was designed to be swung. You can either swing your leg or thrust it.

I did a stop-hit side kick to a 190lb person (while being 140lbs), does that count?

PL

[SoKKlab]

If you miss with the Roundhouse, you can turn all the way around and fire a spinning back elbow as you're turning, or you can use a Back Kick after a turn, Kwan Leo Lang (Sp?), straight up from the floor Thai style. Or, insert other technique here (Many options within Muay Thai and Muay Boran).

I'm over two hundred pounds and have walked through side kicks from some very experienced Taekwondokas.

No, I am not claiming Supermans crown by that statement, just that they have given me multiple hard side kicks in the guts and I just smiled, nicely. It had 'impact' but it didn't hurt much and certainly didn't stop me achieveing what I set out to achieve.

The reason why you don't see the side kick very much in MT Ring bouts, is that it has limited usage against a conditioned fighter of similar skill and limited opportunities for use.

Also it can be quite awkward to pull off quickly, because of the 'Natural' stance of the Thai Arts, feet pointing mainly forwards.

That's not to say that there aren't Side Kick and side kick style kicks in the Thai Arts, there are, quite a few of one sort or another.

Just that the distillation in Ring-Rules Muay Thai has mainly weeded them out. If you can use them then fine, just don't expect to see guys falling over in agony, mainly they just smile, nicely. (As the San Shou fighters have found to their cost).

As for their usage against an attacker on the street who is probably not a well-conditioned Fighter, then that's probably your best option. I like the way they use them in Savate, personally.

[Poop-Loops]

You must have a big gut, or they were really weak. :p

I'm measuring this in the amount of breaks I have done and seen by both kicks. Every time I do a roundhouse to break a board, I REALLY have to focus and hit right, or else it won't break, whereas with the side kick, I don't even have to aim that accurately, and it'll still break easy.

PL

[totality]

board != head
board != ribs
board != legs

this debate will go on forever. perhaps a side kick is very good at breaking boards. the thai kick has always been proven more effective at breaking humans. let's just leave it at at.

[Poop-Loops]

Let me just ask you this, if he didn't stop you with his back kick, do you think he could have stopped you with his roundhouse?

Like I said, combat-wise a roundhouse is more useful, but for pure strength, it's a back or side kick.

PL

[SoKKlab]

Originally posted by Poop-Loops
You must have a big gut, or they were really weak. :p
I'm measuring this in the amount of breaks I have done and seen by both kicks. Every time I do a roundhouse to break a board, I REALLY have to focus and hit right, or else it won't break, whereas with the side kick, I don't even have to aim that accurately, and it'll still break easy.
PL

I'll take it that that was your attempt at humour? Keep taking the Lithium, i'm sure it will help eventually....

Poopy, you are talking theoretically about something you have no practical experience of.

This is the Muay Thai board, if you don't understand Muay Thai, then you're in the wrong place. It's no good trying to debate from a TKD perspective on the logic and rationalle of Muay Thai.

Muay Thai is not Tae Kwon Do, nor does it have very much in common with it.

Yes the Back Kick can be a Powerful kick, if you can land it. There are Back Kicks in the Thai Arts and they do get some usage in Ring Rules Muay Thai. You have more chance of doing damage against an untrained attacker.

As for Side Kicks, see previous post.

In the spirit of friendship and co-operation I suggest most humbly that you go and do some Muay Thai and then you may understand some of the basic stuff that we are talking about here.

Until then, i'll leave you to your board breaking.

[nicolo]

*gulp* this is getting heavy...ok well I think your chances of recoverability are better with a missed roundkick. MT has a fast "reset" option if you will in the case of missed or thwarted techniques. Because it's so simple you will always have another trick up your sleeve.

MT does have back kicks and side push kicks but in the heat of combat like you said they're not used that often. I think you are thinking of side kicks and back kicks in terms of the pressing of the leg. No doubt the legs are capable of pressing away many times the body's weight.

Another point is that because you are facing forward, the round kick can be executed on all levels from your basic stance. High, medium, low...the lower the round kick the better. The idea of a low round kick is to cut through your opponent's base which would be his legs. In the heat of combat these low ones are usually the most damaging and are harder to spot.
Furthermore, well-conditioned Thai boxers can bang out 50+ full powered Thai kicks in rapid succession. I just hate to think of how many full powered back kicks or side kicks can find their mark at that rate. Check opponent for pulse...back kick, retract, chamber, back kick, check opponent for pulse...

The round kick also covers a lot more surface area than a back kick and because you are facing your opponent, your hips play a TREMENDOUS role in the power of the kick. Not surprisingly, this is also why the Thai kick feels so damn hard.

Another point, should your opponent be in a medium range situation, your round kick can also be a knee kick. The same mechanics apply to both because your round kick is executed with a bent leg. If you don't catch him at the shin you can ram into him with your bent knee. Hell you can even include punches and elbows with your knee.

You're more likely to see frontal push kicks if anything or even the occasional spinning reverse kick in a match. The more favored frontal push kick can be executed with blinding speed because you are already facing your opponent and it requires no turning of the body. Isn't that what we're talking about? for combat purposes? K.I.S.S. keep it simple stupid as they say. fire your kick from point A to point B without the extra movement.

If you can back kick like a horse, then that's great. I've tried it against savvy boxers and they would MOVE aside/absorb the blow/hollow out their bodies and knee/kick me in the back or the legs, take my leg out, clinch me, catch it, push kick me, etc. For most of my efforts I got an ass spanking. Unless the fighter was knocked senseless on his feet, it was tough to get the kick past him. Of course against a clueless opponent, you can shoot a spitball at him and he'll get knocked down because he's CLUELESS!

Then again, we're talking about two different styles of striking here. There's a TKD way and there's a MT way.

If you're still in doubt, I suggest going a few rounds against a Thai boxer.

[shipto]

low bow to Sokklab and Nicolo :)

Until then, i'll leave you to your board breaking

If you're still doubtful, I suggest going a few rounds against a Thai boxer

[FullContactKid]

The shin kick is good because like everyone has said your instep can break easily if you land it wrong but your shin, thats not going to break unless its underconditioned, then its a bad day for you. But most people who condition their shins correctly will never have that sort of problem and their kicks are very dangerous.

[totality]

nicolo and sokklab, i couldn't have said it better myself. and i obviously did not. :D

[Poop-Loops]

Do you also think that a backfist punch is stronger than a straight punch?

PL

[Nukie]

Theres a good clip you should try downloading from kazaa featuring a thai boxer vs a tkd fighter.. clip is called 'Thai vs Tae Kwon Do.mpeg' (11.5mb).

The video may be clipped and edited as its only 1min 21secs, it still gives a fairly good idea as to the usefulness of the kicks mentioned above.

p.s the thai boxer kinda shows him up ;)

[nicolo]

*sigh* I think we're getting into the age old discussion of who's technique from which style is better so I'm gonna digress a little.

There are certainly pros and cons concerning backfists and straight punches. Or for that matter, ANY technique has it's advan/disadv. A "strong" technique has so many other factors associated with it. My right cross may work against one opponent, yet it may not even faze another. A spinning backfist may connect against the jaw of one opponent, but it may prove useless against another opponent because he's busy fading away and taking out my legs. So in the realm of kicks, which kicks are better and which aren't? While you may certainly argue from a TKD perspective that back kicks are the strongest, they may not even be physically possible or practical for someone else who's just looking to defend himself/herself. For me, the Thai round kick is probably the strongest and most damaging kick I use. But so what? That woman who's looking to defend herself may not even have the conditioning to take a beating to the shins. Perhaps she'll find simple low-line kicking more useful and effective. Does that mean that the TKD back kick and the Thai kick are useless? Course not. The Thai kick will teach you how to power your kicks with the hips and use your shin as a weapon, while the back kick will teach you how to fire your leg out like a piston and use the ball/heel of your foot as a weapon. One technique bludgeons while the other punches through. Every technique out there has its merit. Will the back kick work for everyone? Maybe and then maybe not, because every person is different.

Although my core is MT, I also practice other arts and ultimately decided on what was best for me. A successful fighter/martial artist is a conglomeration of many many attributes. In the hands of a fighter who has bad posture, body mechanics, stance, reaction, recovery, speed, stamina even a strong Thai roundhouse to an opponent's head or a spinning back kick into his stomach would be useless. No single method or technique will provide the answer for you because fundamentally, we are all different.

Asking me whether one technique is better or stronger than another is pointless because I have decided on what works best for me as an individual and because my core is MT, naturally my views are more reflective of this forum. I liked the simplicity, practicality, effectiveness of MT. I liked the fact that a smaller fighter can learn it and apply it in the least amount of time. In addition to that, I also enjoy the fact that MT teaches you how to use your body's most brutal anatomical weapons - elbows and knees. I think we can all agree on that at least. Are elbows and knees a TKD technique or a MT one? Neither and both. Unless we're all amputees and quadriplegics, we all have elbows and knees. But which style is more likely to specifically teach you infighting with elbows and knees - I would have to say MT in this case. Is TKD useless at this point? I think not. It just that each art specializes in certain areas.

What you are searching for is a definitive answer when you should be looking on a larger scale. What techniques are simple FOR ME? What techniques are effective FOR ME? I have two fists, how can I use these effectively? I have my feet and my shins and my elbows and knees, how can I use these most effectively?

Having said that, we should step back and ask: what is better? Kicks that fire out and punch through or kicks that curve and bludgeon? Both work well.
However, in the realm of us MT practitioners, they have found the arcing, bludgeoning methods like those found in the Thai round kick more useful for US. We also prefer not to turn our backs when executing techniques like back kicks. Do we abhor straight firing kicks? I don't think so and I hope not. We should never neglect them. We just have more of a preference for one over the other because we decided what was best for us. I'm pretty sure most of us here have used straight kicks before we've arrived that decision.

Having a tug of war over specifics isn't going to help.
The answer isn't in just ONE technique or ONE method. What's important is that you need to dig up all the little facts, do the research and decide what is ultimately BEST FOR YOU. How can I maximize the use of my limbs to its fullest? I have the biggest bone in my body, the tibia. How can I use this big piece of bone as a weapon? I have found that answer in MT. Perhaps you may have a change of heart too, perhaps not. But at least you were able to make that decision yourself.

[Poop-Loops]

Did you read what I said? I said a roundhouse kick is more useful in combat. That's NOT what we were discussing though. We were discussing which kick has more power. I hardly ever do a back kick in combat, however, I can topple over my wavemaster bag with one, but can barely move it with a roundhouse.

Nukie, I saw the clip. The TKD guy is a red belt. You might as well have taken any guy off the street to fight the MT guy, it would have looked the same. Besides, it was quite obvious he was a point sparrer, so he has about the same fighting skill as a soccer (football for the rest of the world) player.

PL

[nicolo]

well if you execute a roundhouse WITHOUT kicking THROUGH the bag, without hip power and torque, then you won't get any power whatsoever. Are you describing the TKD roundhouse or the Thai one? The Thai one uses all these mechanics. Have you ever been on the receiving end of a thai kick? It feels like you're getting rear-ended by a truck. The power IS there. I'm actually more afraid of receiving a thai roundhouse than a back kick to tell you the truth.

[Poop-Loops]

How exactly is the Thai kick different? What you described is exactly what we do in TKD.

I don't know, maybe you just train different muscles. Does a Thai kick look more like a swing, or do you bring your leg up, chambered, aim with your knee, and then extend your leg, all in one smooth motion?

Side note: I've been hit by roundhouses and side/back kicks plenty of times. All 3 kicks were beyond measurable pain.

PL

[totality]

thai kick is more of a swing, you don't snap your lower leg, you just whip your hips around and slam your shin into the target.

[nicolo]

exactly what Totality said Poop, the Thai roundhouse is not chambered. It is violently swung with a "dead leg" directly into and THROUGH the target. Like you're chopping it down with an axe. No snapping back either. If you were to miss the target, the power of the round kick would actually spin you around. The power is drawn from the rolling of the hips first. The support leg is raised on tiptoes and spins with the kick and your body's weight leaning away. then the kicking leg follows in chopping through the target. If you do it properly, your opponent's body will definitely buckle from the kick, no matter how much he blocks. That's why I was saying before, do the research, check it out for yourself. TKD round kick mechanics are somewhat similar to it but there are plenty of differences. If those kicks you got were beyond measureable pain, this kick is even beyond that because now you're getting smacked with the shinbone.

[Yoshukai]

Man, Poop-loops, go spar with a MT guy, or a Kyokushin fighter. Its fun when you get kicked and your suddenly on the ground. I sure did have fun when I first started!!!

[cioGium]

the FEMUR. It is in the leg too but above the tibia!. No pun intended Nicolo just a clarification!
All the best!

[nicolo]

yah yah sorry the FEMUR is the biggest bone but I meant the tibia

[MuayThaiGuy]

How exactly is the Thai kick different? What you described is exactly what we do in TKD.

Here's where the disconnect is coming from in this conversation, you're thinking of a TKD style roundhouse. Others have described the difference between the two kicks, so allow me to whip out the science to illustrate the difference between the two.

Recently, I came across a doctoral thesis on the mechanics of the Muay Thai roundhouse. The author rounded up a bunch of volunteers (minimum of 6 months training) from a local Muay Thai club, put a force guage in a heavy bag, and had them kick the bag. He found that these kicks produced a frightening amount of force, well above the threshold to break facial bones (see the Hoost vs Sapp fight).

Towards the end of the paper, he compared his results with those of another researcher who had measured the force of the chambered roundhouses of Karate pracitioners (all of whom had years of experience). Interestingly, while the maximum force produced by the karatekas was 8000N, the Thai roundhouses were all in the 12000N-14000N range. What this means is that even a Thai roundhouse executed by someone with 6 months of training has 50% more power than a chambered roundhouse from an experienced Karate instructor.

If anyone's interested in looking this paper up, here's the reference. It's quite interesting. I found it on microfilm at a local university library.
Kinetic and kinematic analysis of Thai boxing roundhouse kicks
Suwat Sidthilaw
Thesis (Ph. D.)--Oregon State University, 1997

[nicolo]

yeah that study was posted on the web too. He also noted that the lower to middle Thai kicks were the most powerful. The high readings were attributed to the fact that Thai boxers kick through and push into their targets, as opposed to pulling away. 14000N is just downright scary...

[Qis]

Uhm, how were the kicks measured again? not to say muay thai rh's arent incredibly powerfull, but the fact that it has a large element of follow-through means it'll read higher than the snapping chambered kick if it's measured the way i'm thinking.
it's very much liek comparing apples and pears i think.
i.e:

Have you ever used one of those puunching machines at the local amusement arcade? the kind with a paddle suspended from the ceiling that you punch and it folds upwards( like a catflap)? punch it as hard as you can with a good cross, it wont read particularly hard unless you follow the punch upwards. You can probably get a higher reading standing side on to the machine and slamming it with the palm of your hand keeping constant contact.

a simple experiment, get a friend( who you don't like very much) to stand behind a heavy bag( with their face maye 3 inches from the bag). you stand at the other side.
Now, throw a hard + fast punch at the bag. <crack> your frind may have been bumped with teh bag, but they're proabbly ok. Now, set the up again, and rather than punch the bag, Just push it hard at them, the y probably get more of a bashing from that.
which would you rather get hit with?

If a strike is fast, then the bag will absorb a lot of the energy from a strike.
I'm not saying that the conclusions are wrong( that a mt rh is more powerfull thana chambered kick), i'm just saying that the test is not a balanced one.


--------
* nurses huge bruise on instep from nailing an elbow with an instep kick at kb on saturday*

instep kicks are really fast, and have the extra range, but your instep is very fragile compared to your shin. and in snstep kick is hard to use at short range(punching range).

did any of that make sense?

-Qis (soon to start mt)

[nicolo]

what sort of test would you like? ok instead of a bag, use your friend. Blindfold him and either have him hold a pad or take the force of the kick on the side. See what he thinks. That was exactly the point, that the mt roundhouse follows through.

[Qis]

what sort of test would you like? ok instead of a bag, use your friend. Blindfold him and either have him hold a pad or take the force of the kick on the side. See what he thinks. That was exactly the point, that the mt roundhouse follows through.

I'm not saaying that the mt rh is weaker than the chambered rh, just that the test is biased.
as said, it's like comparing apples and pears.

if you could find a way of measuring power instantaneousely that would be good, i can't think of anything just now that does that.

the fact that these 2 experiments were carried out seperatly also suggests there could be a great deal of uncertainty when comparing techniques.

-Qis

[SoKKlab]

Here's a good test to compare the two.

Find somebody fairly resilient, Joe Public if you so wish and who doesn't fall over at the drop of a hat.

Now firstly do a chambered RH kick at their leg with the instep, hell you can even use your shin if you want, but do your chambering and strike that way, pulling or snapping the kick back afterwards if you so wish.

What happens? They look at you fairly annoyed, there's a slap on their leg etc, they might go 'Ow that wasn't very nice'.

Now throw a real roundhouse at their leg.

If it's me throwing it*, not only will I take your legs from completely under you, but you will be somewhat dis-inclined to get up again, as I have done to people many times, both in Ring Fights and 'For Real'.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, so try 'eating' some proper RH kicks and see what happens.

I'll take ten or more slappy clappy kicks over one Full shin thru the leg kick anyday of the week.

Chambering may well have a purpose with arts such as Tae Kwon Do/ Karate etc and I can see why it does and why they use it, but what would you rather drive? A Ford Escort or a Lamborghini? Both get you from A-Z, but one is immeasurably more powerful.

*Disclaimer: I'm more Clark Kent than Superman but if you ever mess with my Lois Lane...*

[Qis]

Here's a good test to compare the two.

Find somebody fairly resilient, Joe Public if you so wish and who doesn't fall over at the drop of a hat.

Now firstly do a chambered RH kick at their leg with the instep, hell you can even use your shin if you want, but do your chambering and strike that way, pulling or snapping the kick back afterwards if you so wish.

What happens? They look at you fairly annoyed, there's a slap on their leg etc, they might go 'Ow that wasn't very nice'.

Now throw a real roundhouse at their leg.

If it's me throwing it*, not only will I take your legs from completely under you, but you will be somewhat dis-inclined to get up again, as I have done to people many times, both in Ring Fights and 'For Real'.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, so try 'eating' some proper RH kicks and see what happens.

I'll take ten or more slappy clappy kicks over one Full shin thru the leg kick anyday of the week.

Chambering may well have a purpose with arts such as Tae Kwon Do/ Karate etc and I can see why it does and why they use it, but what would you rather drive? A Ford Escort or a Lamborghini? Both get you from A-Z, but one is immeasurably more powerful.

*Disclaimer: I'm more Clark Kent than Superman but if you ever mess with my Lois Lane...*

*ahem* my point is NOT that the mt rh is not powerfull.
my point is NOT that the chambered kick is more powerfull than the mt rh.

It is merely that comparing the two studies is not a fair comparison.
Citing the study as proof that the mt is more powerfull is of little merit.

the idea that a kick moves somoene and is therefor more painful/damaging is just daft.
I could do a push-kick that will move someone a fair bit more than a chambered rh. this does not my push kick more damaging than my rh does it?
Judging a kick based on how much it moves someone is not foolproof.

again: my point is that the comparison of 2 different experiments is a flawed comparison.

----



-Qis

[SoKKlab]

*ahem* my point is NOT that the mt rh is not powerfull.
my point is NOT that the chambered kick is more powerfull than the mt rh.

It is merely that comparing the two studies is not a fair comparison.
Citing the study as proof that the mt is more powerfull is of little merit.

the idea that a kick moves somoene and is therefor more painful/damaging is just daft.
I could do a push-kick that will move someone a fair bit more than a chambered rh. this does not my push kick more damaging than my rh does it?
Judging a kick based on how much it moves someone is not foolproof.

again: my point is that the comparison of 2 different experiments is a flawed comparison.


I don't mean this as a criticism of you, but my point to you is that you have no understanding of what you are comparing, hence your confusion.

We often get people wandering in here from other arts and they start making statements based upon their understanding of their own arts and a lack of understanding and experience of Thai Arts*.

(*Your comment regarding the Pushing effect of a MT RH shows this up neatly).

The Purpose of a Thai/ Burmese Roundhouse is to destroy something, not push it. I may well knock you down when I kick you, but that is a by-product of the kick and it's impact, and I'm certainly not pushing you, I'm smashing/ cutting through you. What I'm looking to do with the kick (s) is either :

1) Destroy your ability to remain standing by causing the Muscles (particularly the Quadriceps or Hamstrings) of your leg to spasm through Impact IE A Dead Leg.

2) Breaks Bones or at least cause so much pain to them that you fall over (EG RH to ankle bone if thrown very low)

3) Cause the Calf muscles to spasm and seize through percussive impact
3) Dislocate/ Rupture/ Severely strain Knee joints, inside and outside
4) Break Ribs/ Arms/ Heads
5) Many more variants and variations of these kicks in the Thai/ Burmese arts, including variants such as Ten Kwad Larn (Monk sweeps Floor), which is more of a take both legs out from under you, but is still an impacting kick and not a pure sweep.

Once again. The ability to move something is a by-product of the MT RH kick not it's purpose. IE It's not about how I move you with it, it is the damage that it does to you, whether you managed to remain standing or fall over-you see?

There's an easy answer, have the different kicks done to you by someone skilled at both and you will feel the difference and experience the end result.
The understanding is in the feeling, not surveys, pressure meters etc.

[Iain]

I didn't read all of the posts (I'M LAZY!) so here comes my two cents.
Wouldn't it be stupid to "snap" your kicks if you're in an experiment to measure power in your kicks?
I sure hope the "non-MT'ers" understood that atleast :P

[Infesticon #1]

what art uses the instep to kick a roundhouse with?

[Qis]

what art uses the instep to kick a roundhouse with?
unless i'm very mistaken competition wtf tkd uses the instep to kick with.

Anyhow, my point was that the measurement technique would be biased towards the mt rh. as you said:
The understanding is in the feeling, not surveys, pressure meters etc.
The ability to move something is a by-product of the MT RH kick not it's purpose. IE It's not about how I move you with it, it is the damage that it does to you, whether you managed to remain standing or fall over-you see?
unfortunately this is what a heavy bag rigged to measure pressure will be comparing, the movement in the bag, not the damage you do to it.

i just take issue with citing something that is not comparing like with like on a level playingfield (as i attempted(poorly) to explain with the punching machine comment)

I mean no offence by any of these comments, i dont mean to say the mt rh is weak or innefective( i'm pretty sure i have not said that at all) i just don't like the comparison given.

<unrelated> i've noticed that a lot of the guys that do mt wear...uhm..ankle support things, is that to support the ankle if the kick hits with the foot? or is there some other purpose?</unrelated>
-Qis

[SoKKlab]

I mean no offence by any of these comments, i dont mean to say the mt rh is weak or innefective( i'm pretty sure i have not said that at all) i just don't like the comparison given.

I don't think that we are worried. Clearly anybody who stated that MT (No Not you Qis) was weak or ineffective would be either:

1) Deluded or
2) In need of some serious Mental Health care

Anklets don't provide protection, they are often worn as a mild ankle support.
I don't wear them myself. Well occasionally, as they look nice, but only as a treat mind.

Impact Machines measure Impact not Movement. Which has more Impact?

But I see the point you are getting at, comparing the Focused impact of a Chambered Roundhouse at the Target with the Smashing Impact of a dead leg style Roundhouse going thru.

A Better example is in the statement by Dan Inosanto comparing RH Kicks in MT and The French art Savate, where he says that

'A Muay Thai Roundhouse is like a Baseball Bat, a Savate RH is like a Hammer'

Most arts use their Instep to impact with their Roundhouses, Infesticon,
but it's not just about what part of your bone structure you use to impact something, it's the way the Kick is delivered and it's means of delivery that is the means to power.

[Qis]

Can i just state that i now officially hate kicking with the instep. At kb last weekend i managed to hurt both my feet in different ways kicking with this:
1) got a rh(with instep(DOH!)) blocked with an elbow.
2) just missed a rh(with instep(DOH!)) and caught opponent in the side as he stepped back- result, toes bent down and i got a bruise right accross the first joint of all my toes on my left foot.

i was hobbling all weekend!

topic related statement
"shin kicks have a larger margin of error before you end up injuring yourself!"

I've also noticed that ther are closer to punching range, so you have more oppertunity to mix them in while your in punching range, as opposed to instep/ball kicks, which are pretty much the longest range kicks, and are way outside punching range.

the anklets do look pretty cool, you can tell the guys what do mt because they all wear anklets to kb.

-Qis

[nicolo]

You're not kidding, I used to have a large lump on my instep.
Kicks with insteps are typical of most other arts but MT fighters could also kick with the instep, esp with head strikes. As Sokklab said, what's different is how the leg is lashed out. The hips twist violently and the leg cuts/chops through the target for maximum penetration. In a way, you are aiming PAST the target.
What results is first a deep penetrating, crushing effect on the target and then a "pushing" or "bounce away" effect upon impact. Simply pushing into a bag with your shin will not do the trick.

Obviously your shin isn't capable of cutting a person or bag in half, but the power from the twisting of your hips + the mass of your leg + velocity at which it travels is so strong your leg will smash deep into the target. Upon collision the momentum of the swinging leg far exceeds the momentum of your target, momentum is transferred directly into the object and causes it to be violently shoved aside. In terms of roundhouses to the body, it is enough to cause a buckling and shoving effect. In the case of kicks directed to the head and neck, the force is usually enough to hook the head causing a knockout-inducing effect and dragging it all the way down with the retracting leg. It's almost as if you were trying to decapitate your target.

I believe this is can be further explained using the law of conservation of momentum and Newtonian physics. The damage is from a combination of the hard bone you strike with and the force of the swinging leg.

[Mawi]

the instep is good mixed with some shins. IF you guys ever seen Cro Cop a MMA fighter he mixs two arts TKD and kickboxing. He kicks his oppnent's head with shins and instep becuse it don't take much to hurt someone on the head. The instep is a powerful weapon but takes countless hours or condtioning just like the shins. When i first started fighting every time i hit someone with a instep round house my foot felt like PAIN. Thou it took me over 2 years to finallly make my bones so strong, i can kick some one on there elbows or kick wood and not get hurt. But the shins in Muay Thai are great also there are stronger than the instep but still they also need condtioning. If you want to make your Shins and instep stong, kick the heavy bag with power kicks (do at least 500 with each foot/ a day). :D

[Happeh]

That drawing in your sig is great! Is there a website with more?

[nicolo]

www.superaction.com

[Mawi]

That drawing in your sig is great! Is there a website with more?


ty Muay Thai is to me my fav art! Thou i like TKD too cuz it got some stuff that helps me out. But i admit Muay Thai is really awsome they got no pads and they can absorb so much pain... Really is beyond words. i would like to learn some BJJ thou :cool:

[nicolo]

here's an insider secret:

Muay Thai fighters are really cyborgs

[Scarlet Mist]

I've never sparred a Muay Thai fighter before, but doesn't swinging the leg from the hip like an extension of the hip make the strike slower than a chambered kick? And with all that follow through don't these kicks leave you exposed? I've seen fighters swing, miss and almost fall over..
As for kicking with the shins, why not? The shins are harder than the instep, but couldn't you easily miss and hit with ankle, or worse (if your opponent steps back) jab your toes into him. How much control do these kicks allow you?

[Mawi]

I've never sparred a Muay Thai fighter before, but doesn't swinging the leg from the hip like an extension of the hip make the strike slower than a chambered kick? And with all that follow through don't these kicks leave you exposed? I've seen fighters swing, miss and almost fall over..
As for kicking with the shins, why not? The shins are harder than the instep, but couldn't you easily miss and hit with ankle, or worse (if your opponent steps back) jab your toes into him. How much control do these kicks allow you?

#1 muay thai fighters don't wear pads unlike TKD so you really can't sparr them
#2 The muay Thai fighters turn there hips to get all the power form there stomach musles and there legs. ( i don't now where you hread they don't use there hips )
#3 A Chambered kick is a litte faster than the Muay thai kick but it got no power its like a little sting when it lands but a Muay thai kick might scarfice some speed for power but when it hits you, you are getting hit by a baseball bat because the way the shin is, it is so hard and then you swing your hip with it it really got lots of power.
#4 hmm you think a Mauy thai fighter don't use there fists,elbows and knees because as soon as they miss with there kick they can come in and do elbows or knees on you, that hurts like mad. Its not like TKD where 80% is kicking and 20% is punching and in TKD they don't let you strike there head with your fists or elbows or knees.... Lets say you got a good chnace, a TKD kick is noting compared to a muay thai kick. The TKD kick hurts when you kick the elbow, knees any hard thing so when you kick the muay thai fighter you aren't hurting him but your self. I have trained in TKD and i am still doing it but really even with pads on when TKD fighter kicks with there foot they get hurt. So lets say there were no pads and you hit a Muay fighters knee your foot is destroyed.
# the shins aren't only for striking they are also a sheild if you kick the shins with instep you would get really hurt cuz a muay thai fighter's shins are trained and condtioned to be like wood. if a TKD fighter got a low kick from a muay thai fighter he would fall and get hurt bad bacuse in TKD you don't condtion your shins or the upper legs.
# muay thai fighters also use instep some times so they don't only use there shins so if they need to they can use instep and land a hard roundhouse kick. If a TKd fighter was bounceing and if he gets kicked he would fall and at that time he is exposed to knees.

I can go on and on and tell you more aobut muay thai but the fact is that TKD is only cares aobut scoreing ponits and have pads, if they get kicked but us muay thai fighters we got no pads and we get hit and we kick to KO. TKD also don't use there elbows, knees fists on the face. So its hard to beat a muay thai fighter becuse he is trained to take pain and to cause pain not to get ponits by strikeing spots on a pad.

[nicolo]

With slight adjustments and practice you can get a very fast Thai kick with hip torque. You're looking to create enough power to penetrate and club your opponent with the shin. That means the kick and esp the hip has to twist PAST the target so you can smash the leg into him, punching through the guard. There's more than one way to execute the roundhouse. If you think in terms of using your shin as a club, then it will become apparent to you. Sometimes you may not even need a lot of hip torque. In cases like that, the fighter usually creates momentum and power from stepping across the target and slamming the shin in. You shouldn't fall over if you miss and there's usually a follow-up technique after that. A fighter won't simply stop and walk away after a single kick. I don't know if chambering is faster than simply whipping your leg up.

[Mawi]

chambering is way too weak. If you are in battle a chmabed kick wouldn't even hurt you much. TKD like i said before is all aobut ponits and they don't care about power thats why, Muay Thai dominates most styles. in muay Thai you don't learn forms unlike TKD you spead a lot of time doing movements some guy made up a while ago. Muay Thai fighters train with weights and do lots of condtioning excrsices, yet most of TKD fighters are very light and if they recive one roundhouse with no pads i don't think they could get up. (once i saw this muay thai fighter he did a flying knee then elbowed the guy on the head in mid air) it was a KO. Hmmm in TKD you can't even strike there heads with full power cuz in the rules it says light head kicks, no low kicks, no punching to face, and i have been doing TKD 3 years now and i never seen any KOs... But in the muay thai tornments KOing is most important. I some times wonder if you get in a street fight how can you beat a guy with just chambering your weak kicks and not useing your arms or grapplering moves. Its simple TKD is a sport not a combat art so if Muay thai founght TKD, Muay Thai would have the upper hand.

:)

[Nrv4evr]

TKD is not just a sport, it's just been turned into one by people who fear injury. i'm not a TKD practitioner, so don' take my word, but in the old days, TKD was used for the exact same reason muay thai was. combat. why do you think TKD has so many flying kicks? it's not for show. rather, in the old days, people had to jump so they could kick riders off the horse. same thing with karate in japan. in a typical class in modern north america would consist of safe sparring. but in traditional japan, all they would practice was kata, and application of techniques to hard surfaces. what was require back then, to save your life, has been "watered down", so to speak, to meet the use of it today, as a sport. in a tournament, or any ring fight, why do you think eye jabs, throat smashes, and groin shintos are prohibited? because those are only meant to save your life, not to win 3 points. muay thai and bjj are "ring sports", so of course people in them are generally "tougher" than other MA's. but a long time ago, even the best grapplers were hard pressed against a trained and deadly striker, because they knew how to use the tricky, deadly blows, prohibited in so called "sport".

i'm not saying your wrong mawi, as i have a very high respect for thai boxers; i'm just saying that you shouldn't say TKD is "inferior" to muay thai just because muay thai is more centered on street combat than modern TKD.

[SoKKlab]

TKD is not just a sport, it's just been turned into one by people who fear injury. i'm not a TKD practitioner, so don' take my word, but in the old days, TKD was used for the exact same reason muay thai was. combat. why do you think TKD has so many flying kicks? it's not for show. rather, in the old days, people had to jump so they could kick riders off the horse. same thing with karate in japan.

Nope. People used to use Bill-Hooks/ Halbards/ Pole-Arms/ Naginatas/ Pikes etc to unseat riders from horses during battles, or better yet, to hack the legs from under the horse.

The notion that there were all these guys flying around going' Boooiiinng' and unseating Riders from horses with Flying Kicks on ancient oriental Battlefields is a falsehood (I know some etc Koreans will tell you different, but then they have their reasons).

TKD comes from Shotokan Karate and has develped from there. In fairness, probably the first time TKD was used in Combat by Koreans, was with the Korean Tigers Battalion in H2H combat during the Vietnam war.

How could it of been used any earlier? It only came in to being when founded by General Choi in approx 1951-1953. No, it does not come from earlier Korean sources....

And also, please let's not get into another tedious Muay Thai vs debate, my poor brain cannae take it. Muay Thai is Muay Thai and Tae Kwon Do is Tae Kwon Do and surely that's that.

Oh yes, Muay Thai is mainly taught and fought as a Ring Sport, but there are whole other aspects to it, which represent the Fighting Arts side of things (Muay Boran, Ling Lom etc). Many Muay Thai techniques are banned under the Muay Thai Ring Rules. We make a differentiation between the Ring Sport side of things and The Full Fighting art. All is Excellent.

And I know that I am not a Moderator, but por favor, the topic is Shin Kicks (or was about eight years ago....)-So at least let's have a little bit of relevance to them...

And on that note. Shin kicks, wow they're great! They are so Great, Watttaaahhhhh! Crunch!

[Mawi]

TKD came from a old art in old korea.... not from japnese karate....I got no idea where you heard that people jump over horeses and kick there oppent.... TKD uses instep thats that. But Muay Thai has more power... And i still wondering if it same from karte why then do TKD fighters only use there clmbering kicks? And you said Muay Thai is a ring sport... isn't that the same with TKD there is no rope but its a box.

Shin kicks are da best...... :Angel:

[SoKKlab]

TKD came from a old art in old korea.... not from japnese karate....I got no idea where you heard that people jump over horeses and kick there oppent.... TKD uses instep thats that. But Muay Thai has more power... And i still wondering if it same from karte why then do TKD fighters only use there clmbering kicks? And you said Muay Thai is a ring sport... isn't that the same with TKD there is no rope but its a box.

Shin kicks are da best...... :Angel:

For the last time: TKD comes from Japanese Karate, it does not come from Taek Kyon (the old Korean Art you refer to).

I don't care what myths you have been told or choose to believe. (The important bit is COMES from, not is the same...As in Developed from in the last Fifty odd Years).

Gen. Choi founder of TKD was a Shotokan Practitioner-both TKD and the slightly Earlier Tang Soo Do, come from Japanese Karate and developed accordingly from there. This is common knowledge that some choose to ignore.

Certain sections of Koreans and those indoctrinated by them, will tell you that it is Thousands of years old etc, but that is to do with a desire to have an indigenous Korean Art of their own and not admit that their national art comes from Japan, a country that occupied Korea for considerable amounts of time....

Who are you addressing the rest of your comments to, because they don't make much sense in English or any other language???

Anyway-Shin Kicks???? Anyone??

[Mawi]

Well i was just saying that where i praticed they said Taekwondo is a very old art. Hmmmm and i do muay thai and taekwondo and i was just trying to say that muay thai is combt and TKD is a sport to score ponits. But i can understand that TKd came from karte now cuz they got allmost the same uniform and they both got "fourms". Thou TKd seens to only care about kicking and karte only uses endless ammounts of hand work ( that aren't even useful in a fight) Both this styles are not blanced.

by the way does any one think kung fu is the art that made all arts thats what i heard........ ( i disagree)

SoKKlab what art do you do?

[lokman368]

i would say that different kids have their own usage. a taekwondo kid, which chambers and "aims" with their knees tend to be a little faster in movement, but slightly less powerful than a swinging muay thai kick. the shin is better for close up attacks, which is followed by hooks and punches. the instep is longer and allows the user to retreat quickly to use other kicks. both kicks are good in my opinion. however, to me, the most useful kick is a front snap kick... it is to me the fastest (although its not very powerful and there are not a lot of targets to hit other than the groin. >=))

[SoKKlab]

i would say that different kids have their own usage. a taekwondo kid, which chambers and "aims" with their knees tend to be a little faster in movement, but slightly less powerful than a swinging muay thai kick. the shin is better for close up attacks, which is followed by hooks and punches. the instep is longer and allows the user to retreat quickly to use other kicks. both kicks are good in my opinion. however, to me, the most useful kick is a front snap kick... it is to me the fastest (although its not very powerful and there are not a lot of targets to hit other than the groin. >=))

It's not just that Thai and Burmese Kicks hit with the shin, that's only one part of it. It's also their Rotational Movement (Hips etc) that makes that type of Roundhouse so powerful.

Snapping Kicks is IME, a waste of time and energy (But I understand why some arts do it). And why do they have to be Kids???

[Andy Murray]

Why in the world would you want to kick somene with your shins instead of the instep on your foot which is more used to take blows?:confused:

I've had ribs on both sides of my ribcage broken with instep kicks, albeit my opponent had instep pads on at the time.

Were it that he had had shoes on, I'd expect no greater injury to him, but far greater injury to me!

[lokman368]

er... i spelt kick wrong and wrote kid :D

[Stealth]

I'm over two hundred pounds and have walked through side kicks from some very experienced Taekwondokas.

No, I am not claiming Supermans crown by that statement, just that they have given me multiple hard side kicks in the guts and I just smiled, nicely. It had 'impact' but it didn't hurt much and certainly didn't stop me achieveing what I set out to achieve.


What if they sidekicked you in the knee? Or in the leg muscle right below the hip? I guaranteed you that you wouldn't be the one smiling :D

Sadly, people in Tae Kwon Do aren't trained to side kick (or for most people, kick at all) in the knee or leg for self defense purposes.


I have seen one person defending one roundhouse, and another defending another roundhouse. Why not mix techniques? The Muay Thai roundhouse was made to devastate an opponent, but the snapping TKD roundhouse was made because the powerful kick was too slow, and you can see it coming.

TKD may be mostly sport, but don't say they can't generate power, because to score a point in a match you have to physically move the opponent. And it's tiring getting your leg above belt level.

[SoKKlab]

What if they sidekicked you in the knee? Or in the leg muscle right below the hip? I guaranteed you that you wouldn't be the one smiling :D

Sadly, people in Tae Kwon Do aren't trained to side kick (or for most people, kick at all) in the knee or leg for self defense purposes.

Side Kicks to the Knee aren't all they are cracked up to be, particularly from a Muay Thai POV (That's this Forum), as your (the Fighter Being Attacked) leg is bent, therefore Sidekick to the knee is a daft tactic against a 'Thai' Fighter.

It's not bad as a 'Stop' to the legs-to stop the fighter coming forward, but is risky and that's why you don't see it in the Ring.

Decent enough tactic for self-defence against a seemingly un-trained attacker, particularly if their leg is straight. But a much better kick from that POV in my Opinion is the Savate Kick 'Coup de Pied Bas'.

Although there are Side Kicks and Side Kick like kicks in the The Thai and Burmese arts, they are for usage mainly as 'self-defence' style techniques, or used as counters in some 'Classical' techniques during Kick-Catches (used as the response). Used to stamp on the inside Knee Joint of the Supporting Leg of the Kicker.

Side Kick to the (muscle just below the) Hip? What the's point???

[nicolo]

yes sometimes those side kicks do not faze an opponent at all. Different people have different tolerance levels. The only types of side kicks I'd use and stick with are fast low-line types to the shin and maybe the knee joints - stop kicks, piston style kicks, hacking kicks to the sciatic, kicks to the groin, Savate types (chasse bas, coup de pied bas) or like those in Pananjakman, perhaps - and preferably with a nice hard shoe. Only because I have used them before in real situations and they've proven to cause a considerable amount of pain. Unless you're dealing with a completely clueless individual, most strong folks with square hips are not going to get stopped with a simple kick to muscles below the hips. From a self-defense aspect yes sure it's ok to do that and buy a little time to follow up with something else, but I'm looking to punish from the get-go.

[Stealth]

I think you'd have to bend your knee a lot to have it not broken from a sidekick. Anyway, if somebody's legs were bent, I would kick that muscle above the knee. And true, many people have different tolerance levels, but if somebody cannot feel pain in their thigh, or that muscle in the front of their leg below the hips and above the knee, you don't have much chance of winning anyway. He might be high, so I would run away.

If not to hurt somebody's leg, I would use this to move the person backwards, or to keep him from rushing in, or like you said, nicolo, to gain some time to get ready to follow it up with something else.

Also, another reason why the chamber kick was developed is probably because in Tae Kwon Do and Karate (I think) people train to avoid kicks completely. If you were to do a powerful kick that spun you around if you missed your target you would probably get punched in the face by the time you recovered. Like someone said in an earlier post, there is a Muay Thai way and a TKD way. But if you find someone who trains in both he will probably beat them both

[Scarlet Mist]

First off, Sokklab, Scarlet bets if you caught a proper sidekick, heel and all in the rib cage or solar plexus, or sternum you would not keep on walking. Secondly, everyone here has been saying chambered kicks are weak, they are not. If you do it properly they pack loads of power.
Scarlet does not do TKD, he does CLF and all his kicks are chambered. Chamber knee, and while pivoting hit flush on the target while aiming for a spot a foot back. TKDokas have real powerful kicks (Scarket would make a reference to the guy who got kicked in the head, helmet and all, but was killed). The chambered kick is not weak, while the thai kick is powered by a twising of the hips, the chambered kick is powered by a pivot. As for a sidekick to the knee, if you get hit from the side (so the knee in question goes towards the other knee, something is likely to break).

[SoKKlab]

First off, Sokklab, Scarlet bets if you caught a proper sidekick, heel and all in the rib cage or solar plexus, or sternum you would not keep on walking. Secondly, everyone here has been saying chambered kicks are weak, they are not. If you do it properly they pack loads of power.
Scarlet does not do TKD, he does CLF and all his kicks are chambered. Chamber knee, and while pivoting hit flush on the target while aiming for a spot a foot back. TKDokas have real powerful kicks (Scarket would make a reference to the guy who got kicked in the head, helmet and all, but was killed). The chambered kick is not weak, while the thai kick is powered by a twising of the hips, the chambered kick is powered by a pivot. As for a sidekick to the knee, if you get hit from the side (so the knee in question goes towards the other knee, something is likely to break).
Hmmm Sokklab wonders why Scarlet continually and bizarrely refers to him? self in the Third Person. Is Scarlet suffering from Schizophrenia or a Bad case of Piles????

Secondly Sokklab will gladly Spar with Scarlet to show him? the error of his ways. Sokklab would be glad to provide this public service and has done many times.....

You don't know me, you've never met me. You know nothing about me. So don't tell me what I'm capable of. Best not to assume anything about Sokklab, Hokay???

Kicks to use against trained Fighters and Kicks to be used against potentially non-trained fighters are two very different kettles of fish....

Side Kick in a Muay Thai bout, bit risky, not much use for it. Side Kick in a Self-Defence situation useful, very useful.

Chambered Roundhouse with snap, useful within certain arts, but doesn't fit the Mechanics of Muay Thai, quite simple really.

Your point about the Pivot, is Kerwronggggg. Thai and Burmese Roundhouses use both the power from the hips and the Pivot.

You are perhaps thinking about one type of Thai Roundhouse, which is The Cut Kick, stepping off the tramlines and blasting away with no need to Pivot. There are many variations.

So is anybody who actually does any Thai Arts actually going to post in this thread, is it just going to be People from TKD/ CLF etc-who think they know about Muay Thai and think they are going to tell us something we don't know??? Just wondering...

[Mawi]

First off, Sokklab, Scarlet bets if you caught a proper sidekick, heel and all in the rib cage or solar plexus, or sternum you would not keep on walking. Secondly, everyone here has been saying chambered kicks are weak, they are not. If you do it properly they pack loads of power.
Scarlet does not do TKD, he does CLF and all his kicks are chambered. Chamber knee, and while pivoting hit flush on the target while aiming for a spot a foot back. TKDokas have real powerful kicks (Scarket would make a reference to the guy who got kicked in the head, helmet and all, but was killed). The chambered kick is not weak, while the thai kick is powered by a twising of the hips, the chambered kick is powered by a pivot. As for a sidekick to the knee, if you get hit from the side (so the knee in question goes towards the other knee, something is likely to break).

eh..... Scarlet who do you think you are, talking like you can beat a MT fighter. Judeing on how you talk you sound kinda stupid. Ok now if the side kick was so called useful why aren't we seeing it in K1 and MMA... You think you can beat them with your side kick... eh.. Sir let me tell you, it took me 3 to 4 months to beat every single Black belt in a TKD school.... There kicks where weak nothing but a sting. If they kicked a elbow they would hop around even with pads on.... Mawi wonders why Scarlet thinks he can go around saying that his way is his right way.... Eh.. So if what Scarlet siad was true then why only Bruce Lee used a side kick in battle ( in a movie). LOL if you come at me with a side kick i would move out of the way its so ez to see comeing and conter with a high roundhouse. I kicked down a 200 ib pounds bag and all a TKD Black belt can do it move it a little bit... eh Scarlet says a good side kick to the head can kill a man.. ( so what a man died siting in a chair) does that make diffence ( just because one man died, don't mean i am going to die if the oppent side kicks me....) Like i siad before Side kicks are ez to see comeing and only can work in a Bruce Lee movie , where the guy wasn't even looking at bruce and the guy was standing still. And you are so wrong in saying that a clambering kick is just as strong.... not thats why you don't see TKD fighters in MMA or K1... Since when does a snap kick KO a guy... never seen that eh.... But a MT kick from the hip is damageing. BTW what do you think the oppent would be doing when you come in for a low side kick.... eh? :confused: what you said was kinda Bull Crap and doesn't make sense why you keep saying Scarlet did this Scarlet did that? Scarlet an't a champ is he lets leave it at that!

:p ( wants to kick Scarlet see what he think about Mawi's kick eh)

[alexxlea]

All I can say is...
Shin kicks=broken/unusable legs.

[Grifter]

All I can say is...
Shin kicks=broken/unusable legs.



No it doesnt.



Mawi, your talking about Scarlet and how he's saying his stuff is the best. Well read your own post cause your doing the same.


I've see a fighter use sidekicks in K1 im sure others saw it too. Cant remember the guys name or even who he was fighting so I will describe him in hopes somebody else will remember his name. He was a tall black guy, had an afro, and was wearing a yellow jump suit with black stripes down it. Like the one Bruce Lee wears in the "Game of Death". Anyway, he kept trying to use sidekicks and the got him nowhere. He got his ass kicked.

[nicolo]

what do you mean broken unusable legs? Thai fighters have been using shins for ages. How do you explain guys like Hoost, Silva, Cro-Cop, Aerts who kick like there's no tomorrow. And nobody says you MUST block shin on shin. There are plenty other techniques in pure muay Thai that can be used against kicks and sidekicks. Catching the foot, twisting it and kneeing the leg is "serpent twists its tail". You can catch and elbow or "impaling the stake". Then you have "blocks" and redirections of the kicks using your forearm like in "tiger crosses the stream" and "taya supports the pillar". Or you can lean away or hollow out your body. There's even a leg break in muay Thai. Of course a few of these techniques are not allowed in regulation sport muay Thai but they are there.

I saw that matchup in the recent K-1 with the black guy and the yellow Bruce Lee suit. He actually caught the other fighter with one of those fancy kicks but he was beaten in the end.

[Scarlet Mist]

eh..... Scarlet who do you think you are, talking like you can beat a MT fighter. Judeing on how you talk you sound kinda stupid. Ok now if the side kick was so called useful why aren't we seeing it in K1 and MMA... You think you can beat them with your side kick... eh.. Sir let me tell you, it took me 3 to 4 months to beat every single Black belt in a TKD school.... There kicks where weak nothing but a sting. If they kicked a elbow they would hop around even with pads on.... Mawi wonders why Scarlet thinks he can go around saying that his way is his right way.... Eh.. So if what Scarlet siad was true then why only Bruce Lee used a side kick in battle ( in a movie). LOL if you come at me with a side kick i would move out of the way its so ez to see comeing and conter with a high roundhouse. I kicked down a 200 ib pounds bag and all a TKD Black belt can do it move it a little bit... eh Scarlet says a good side kick to the head can kill a man.. ( so what a man died siting in a chair) does that make diffence ( just because one man died, don't mean i am going to die if the oppent side kicks me....) Like i siad before Side kicks are ez to see comeing and only can work in a Bruce Lee movie , where the guy wasn't even looking at bruce and the guy was standing still. And you are so wrong in saying that a clambering kick is just as strong.... not thats why you don't see TKD fighters in MMA or K1... Since when does a snap kick KO a guy... never seen that eh.... But a MT kick from the hip is damageing. BTW what do you think the oppent would be doing when you come in for a low side kick.... eh? :confused: what you said was kinda Bull Crap and doesn't make sense why you keep saying Scarlet did this Scarlet did that? Scarlet an't a champ is he lets leave it at that!

:p ( wants to kick Scarlet see what he think about Mawi's kick eh)


Scarlet's puzzled :confused: . Ok, now look, Scarlet never used the word "best" in his post, hell, after reading again he realizes he didn't even use the word better. Why is everybody being all hostile?
Scarlet only reacted to the posting because someone (Mawi he thinks) said chambered kicks were weak. Scarlet disagreed, and more importantly Scarlet disagreed without calling anyone stupid, showing any kind of hostility or threatening to beat up anybody.
And how does Scarlet speak like he could beat an MT fighter? Did Scarlet ever say or imply that he could beat an MT fighter? Where did he say that? And why all this "I can beat you, because you're weak and you can't kick" talk? Shouldn't martial artists have more respect?

Now, Sokklab, as much as Scarlet would love to split your wig, there would be no need for a fight. I mean really, what do you have to prove? If you're as tough as you say you are why do you need to prove it to some rookie CLF guy who can't even kick?
How old are you guys anyway? Scarlet detects a high levels of immaturity from Sokklab and Mawi. How old are you guys? How long have you been training in your art? Please tell Scarlet.
Scarlet has not made a proud post, as he has many reasons to be humble, since he is not very experienced, doesn't do barenuckle fighting, likes peace and likes to chill. So there, Scarlet Mist tries to learn something about MT, clowns act like jacksasses, Scarlet tells clowns to calm down because it's not that serious. And Scarlet is out.

Oh, and Mawi, about you beating every Black belt in a TKD school, what does that do. What's that besides someone boasting about nothing? For all you know it could have been a McDojo or something. Anyway, Scarlet is out.

[Nrv4evr]

First off, Sokklab, Scarlet bets if you caught a proper sidekick, heel and all in the rib cage or solar plexus, or sternum you would not keep on walking. Secondly, everyone here has been saying chambered kicks are weak, they are not. If you do it properly they pack loads of power.


chambered kicks are not generally used to produce power, scarlet (forgive the third person reference), but they are to be fast and produce pain.
karate, for example, (pardon the mentioning of k in a mt thread) uses fast strikes to cause pain and external damage, in other words, linear speed.

muay thai, and i speak from a general point of view, uses a lot of momentum to rip through your viscera and cause internal damage, while at a very slight loss of surprise and power, which may leave open a counterattack. but mt'ers are very well conditioned, so they can take a punch to the head, which renders chambered kicks almost pointless.

and scarlet, to answer your "dumbfounding" at the hostility, you should have read kgirls post about the extremely annoying third person reference. i find it quite amusing that you are calling sokklab, who i count at 1600 + posts, and mawi, who obviously knows a bit about muay thai, immature. not many people like big egos, so um...please, and this is asking nicely, don't act as if you have no idea about what we're talking about.

[SoKKlab]

Now, Sokklab, as much as Scarlet would love to split your wig, there would be no need for a fight. I mean really, what do you have to prove? If you're as tough as you say you are why do you need to prove it to some rookie CLF guy who can't even kick?
How old are you guys anyway? Scarlet detects a high levels of immaturity from Sokklab and Mawi. How old are you guys? How long have you been training in your art? Please tell Scarlet.
Scarlet has not made a proud post, as he has many reasons to be humble, since he is not very experienced, doesn't do barenuckle fighting, likes peace and likes to chill. So there, Scarlet Mist tries to learn something about MT, clowns act like jacksasses, Scarlet tells clowns to calm down because it's not that serious. And Scarlet is out.

I didn't say anything about fighting you Scarlet, just that I would gladly spar with you, possibly I worded it wrongly(?). To show you what I mean regarding Side Kicks etc, but no matter. I also see now that you are in San Fran in the USA, so long way to go to spar...

You'd get a bit more respect if you stopped referring to yourself in the Third Person, because it makes Scarlet sound like he's off with the faeries...

If you want to learn more about Muay Thai, then ask questions, using these???, instead of trying to tell people on this frequency that you know it all etc.

That's how your post came across, perhaps you didn't mean to sound the way you did, but really, we've figured all this stuff out for ourselves, honest...

Your post came across as one where you were looking to have a row with somebody, that's all.

[alexxlea]

You people...
I am obviously saying the reciever of the shin kick gets the messed up leg, not the giver.
I have no idea how you all think that the guy throwing a shin kick would break his leg against a person not ready for one.

[Scarlet Mist]

Oh really? Well Scarlet is going to frickin' kill you. I'm not in San Francisco, never even been there, but I'll be in your back yard if you like me too, hell, I'll even put you there as well. Don't be hostile, it will get you shot. My views are unchanged, but I'd also like to know how conditioned your throat or your temple is. That is a question, really, a question. As for me talking in the third person, why does it matter, it something different really that hard to get used to. Now it's really not that serious, and I'm not learning very much here, again, hostility far supercedes everything else. So on that note, I'd like to remind you all that and eagle catching slugs in the desert is not the same as catching slugs from a desert eagle. Hey, and to all of you clowns, go sleep with your grandmothers or something.

On a side note, what do y'all think about Martial artists and liquor? Does it affect your training. I have couple beers in me right now, and I'm gonna train tomorrow? Will a hangover ruin training? Well, let's find out.

Scarlet shouldn't be infront of a computer right now, Man, I must be a geek or something ......................

[Mawi]

Scarlet, i 3 hours ago spared with a JKD fighter. He was quick and did 4 or 5 side kicks every one of them was countered by a roundhouse kick and i did a push/ax kick on my oppent's head. He was fast but one problem his sidekick even if it is fast can be countered very easly by a side step. Scarlet you think i got no respect to Martail Arts no you are worng but i got no respect for a guy saying his sidekick can break my knee.... and talking in thrid person acting like he is better than the Art of Muay Thai. Even if lets say you are faster then the JKD fighter (who uses his sidekick as his main wepaon) any expericed fighter isn't dum enough to stand still and wait for a side kick to land on his knee. Ok did that sound disrespctful.... And i don't recall me braging on my posts.... I only want to share what Muay Thai has to offer and what i have learned threw Muay Thai. I respct a man that respcts me. Now i might have sounded harsh on my pervious post so for that fovgive me. But i don't like guys that act like all better than others. I would say you need to dorp the third person why of talking and talk like a normal person.


O at first it hurts when you kick some one with your shin but later on it don't hurt at all. Just like a Boxers hands has become pain free same with a Muay Thai fighter's shin.

[Scarlet Mist]

chambered kicks are not generally used to produce power, scarlet (forgive the third person reference), but they are to be fast and produce pain.
karate, for example, (pardon the mentioning of k in a mt thread) uses fast strikes to cause pain and external damage, in other words, linear speed.

muay thai, and i speak from a general point of view, uses a lot of momentum to rip through your viscera and cause internal damage, while at a very slight loss of surprise and power, which may leave open a counterattack. but mt'ers are very well conditioned, so they can take a punch to the head, which renders chambered kicks almost pointless.

and scarlet, to answer your "dumbfounding" at the hostility, you should have read kgirls post about the extremely annoying third person reference. i find it quite amusing that you are calling sokklab, who i count at 1600 + posts, and mawi, who obviously knows a bit about muay thai, immature. not many people like big egos, so um...please, and this is asking nicely, don't act as if you have no idea about what we're talking about.


And my calling Sokklab immature had nothing to do with his post count or how little or how much he knew about MT. It's the fact taht he would call someone stupid after reading (and severely misreading) 2 posts. So there, to everyone who has a problem .... remember that Scarlet will leave with no intro after he blows four in you ....

[Grifter]

Hey Scarlet, word of advise. You should edit or all out delete your post, the one right before Mawi, before you get banned or something.


Now I have an actually question for you. Why do you bring up Desert Eagles so much??

[Scarlet Mist]

I've been known to be humble, swing an ax when I rumble, show ya butt what ma gun do, got a temper, go ahead, lose ya head .....

Scarlet will not delete his post! Aww crud. Damn. Damn. Damn.

Why do I mention Desert Eagles so much, rap music, and the recognition of the fact that the best fighters - yes, for those who can catch punches and kicks catching a slug will ruin your abs .. yes ... and slugs seem so powerless.We live in a serious world...

[Scarlet Mist]

Oh, and because I've never seen a streetfight. We don't really have fights, we have shootouts, murders and a few stabbings. Happens all the time, you're right near it, but never get used to it because you're not really near to it ... makes you kinda paranoid if you're like me ... When people break out in bar fights it's likely that someone gets shot.

[Grifter]

Didnt say you had to delete the post. Just said it would be wise to. But if you dont want to dont.


And Desert Eagle because of rap music, recognition of the fact that the best fighters...?? the fact that the best fighters what??


Where do you live??

[Mawi]

Sounds to me like he is some kind or a getto gangster. I got nothing to say to this pure anoyness or a very what can i say "thoug" like behaveior. Look if you think that you are a bad ass,fight like a man and don't come in this posts and tell us you are getting us shot. You are nothing more than a very very arrgont man or ( a 12 year old kid). Grow up. I think i might pray for you, pray that you learn to be humble and have some honor. Look this is not a place for rude like behavior if you got something to say you need to be more like a normal human being. ( you think a warrior can be stoped with a gun if some one had the will power then can be shot several times and still live.

Grow up!!

[alexxlea]

Death threats get you arrested around these parts.

[Scarlet Mist]

Ok, it's not that serious, I'm just clowning around. Thanks for the prayer offer, I'm about to go pray for myself. I'm not from the ghetto, I'm no gangster, never even held a gun :D Life is good.


"you think a warrior can be stoped with a gun if some one had the will power then can be shot several times and still live."

Man, get that stuff out your head, a bullet will seriously disrupt bodily functions. If it disrupts a function that is necessary to survival, you will die. It is as simple as that (yes, back to being rational now). It has nothing to do with a warrior or warrior spirit. Almost all the people who get shot die there ... it kinda sucks. And no I am not going to shoot anybody, stop worrying.

And I'm grown, don't really have a choice.

[Scarlet Mist]

Was my post tampered with? What I meant to say was that the best fighters will die if previously mentioned bodily functions are disrupted. It sucks, people get shot so much, it's about 2 everyday ... just makes one feel kinda powerless ... ahh ... this is not the time or place .. Peace

[Grifter]

lol sorry your post wasnt tampered with. Think your thoughts jump ahead of your typing. Dont worry about it happens to the best of us. :D


Should try not to let things like that shooting get to you. Make you paranoid and crap. I live in a a huge city with lots of crime. For example a something some of you may have heard of, the Marcus Wesson mass murder trial. That guy killed 9 of him familiy members. Happened not more the 5 blocks from my house. Just dont let crap like that bother you too much. And being a little paranoid may not be a bad thing anyway.

[Scarlet Mist]

Yeah, Scarlet was a little intoxicated last night, my bad. Yeah.
There was a police shooting, one shot fired, one of my former schoolmates took it in the head. The kid probably saw something they the cops didn't want him to see. Sucks when it's the police that's taking people out ...anyway .. I think this is for a diferent thread

[Nrv4evr]

And my calling Sokklab immature had nothing to do with his post count or how little or how much he knew about MT. It's the fact taht he would call someone stupid after reading (and severely misreading) 2 posts. So there, to everyone who has a problem .... remember that Scarlet will leave with no intro after he blows four in you ....

"Blows four in you?" Is that a threat on my life?

on topic though, remember that to each his own. i think someone who would threaten someone else on the forum should at least understand that everyone has different opinions. live with it.

and, just to be a good sport, i give you credit for being able to save your own skin from a banning. tip my hat to you, pal. :D

[Stealth]

I've got a question :confused: :)

How can you dodge sidekicks, but not the MT roundhouses? Especially when the sidekick is the finisher of a combo?

I am just wondering because Muay Thai roundhouses leave you vulnerable for a split second, and they telegraph a lot since you are putting your whole body into that powerful kick

[Scarlet Mist]

Yes, to Blow four in someone actually means to blow four in them. Scarlet has again imbibed significant quantities of alcohol and suffers from slightly impaired judgement at the moment, again. Liquor is a vicious thing .... anyway. .. I don't really care about being banned or whatever ... and no, I am not going to shoot anybody. Yet. Crap, my head's wobbling again. Oh, crap, I if water will help ...

[SoKKlab]

I've got a question :confused: :)

How can you dodge sidekicks, but not the MT roundhouses? Especially when the sidekick is the finisher of a combo?

I am just wondering because Muay Thai roundhouses leave you vulnerable for a split second, and they telegraph a lot since you are putting your whole body into that powerful kick
You can dodge anything (within reason), if you have fast enough footwork, Side Kick, Roundhouse etc. Just a fractional movement will get you out of the way.

Can be a better tactic to catch side kicks, as they are a gift in terms of counter-throws, reaps etc. As they are a 'Thrust' movement they are generally easier to slip, parry, catch, re-direct etc, if coming in at the Mid-Level.

[Scarlet Mist]

This is a question. For all that may feel like jumping on me ... THIS IS A QUESTION. Since MT roundhouses are blowing thru the target, why can't I just catch it ... should be kinda like catching a cricket ball coming at your face. Sure it will knock all your teeth out if you let it hit you, but catching it's easier to catch since you don't even have to move towards it.

[Nrv4evr]

to answer ur "question" scarlet, it's because mt practitoners condition and practice, without focusing on flying kicks. they train every part of their arsenal, piece by piece. so if you can catch one of their thai roundhouses, good for you. i hope your fingers don't break on the impact, and that you're fast enough to catch the left hook coming at your face.

[Scarlet Mist]

So let's say subject A catches subject B's thai roundhouse and jumps back holding the leg? Doesn't that put the MT fighter down.
Anyway, this is going to be pointless since you have an obvious bias. Not everyone does flying kicks and not everyone neglect parts of his arsenal.

[Nrv4evr]

what if, scarlet, is not "i've done". in any self-respecting fight, a fighter will not stand there motionless while a flying kick smacks him in the head. it's just too damn stupid to happen. and you have no right calling a bias, because i'm merely stating common fact.

[Scarlet Mist]

I think you misunderstood me.
"Not everyone does flying kicks"
That's what I said, in response to your saying "mt practitoners condition and practice, without focusing on flying kicks".
What that should mean is that MT fighters are not the only ones who practice without focusing on flying kicks.

You're stating a common fact?

Is that fact the premise that catching a MT fighter's round kick will break your fingers, or that his right hook will knock you out?
I say you're biased because you are yet to admit that it is possible that the rh may be countered by a lock, in fact, you're yet to yield anything.

[SoKKlab]

This is a question. For all that may feel like jumping on me ... THIS IS A QUESTION. Since MT roundhouses are blowing thru the target, why can't I just catch it ... should be kinda like catching a cricket ball coming at your face. Sure it will knock all your teeth out if you let it hit you, but catching it's easier to catch since you don't even have to move towards it.

Roundhouses are caught all the time in Muay Thai. The most common counter being under the arm, with a slight move off-line to negate some of the power, the arm loops over and clamps tight. There are many alternatives, but this is the most common and basic one.

Problem for the Kickcatcher from there is the response. You catch and then say Knee to their body, or elbow their caught leg (A 'Dirty pool' Ring technique) or (pick something) and then throw, reap, or Pivot back and Circle throw etc etc.

But the Kicker will try to pull you close into their counter punches, or try to weigh their leg down, so that you end up letting go. Or collapse their leg into a Shin Ride/ Stop and attempt to clinch with you etc.

It's all specifics...and theoretical.

The point is you capitalise on your situation and they try to capitalise upon theirs.

A side kick is essentially easier to capture because it is a Thrusting motion. Thrusts are generally easier to parry and/ or capture because of their nature.

Also the side kick can put you in a very bad position Ringwise, the body is turned side-on can easily be spun and/or the supporting leg hacked away.

This can also happen with a caught Roundhouse, but is marginally more difficult to do because of the mechanics going on.

As I say, from a ring perspective the Side Kick is a more risky Kick to throw, as soon as you bring any form of Kick-catching/ Grappling into the equation.

For 'Self-Defence' POV it is a decent enough kick, particularly with shoes on and ratched low into the shin.

[Nrv4evr]

Is that fact the premise that catching a MT fighter's round kick will break your fingers, or that his right hook will knock you out?
I say you're biased because you are yet to admit that it is possible that the rh may be countered by a lock, in fact, you're yet to yield anything.

forgive me if i'm wrong, but aren't ur other hands holding the kick? which in turn would lead to the rh, then the possible lock, then the knee...the list goes on.

and u said, starting this whole argument, that you could catch a MT kick. then you are suggesting, albeit as an example, that the roundhouse kick would break your fingers. and a rh wouldn't probably knock you out, but it would loosen your grip on the leg, allowing him to break free.

[Mawi]

For side kicks all you need is side step. Very simple to see comeing, i have fought with fast sidekickers and its very hard for them to land this kick becuse the oppent never stays and blocks this kick all he needs to do is move away. But a Roundhouse can travel some times a half a circle so it is very hard to conter it, at times. So to land it wouldn't take as much effort as a sidekick would. The other thing is when you trun to the side you got no punchs to conter with if you miss. A roundhouse you can kick and punch in a good combo. Side kicking is also a risk to get kicked with a low kick to your standing leg. Its also possiable with a roundhouse kick but at least you got your fists to protect you. Plus the sidekick can be blocked and not cause that much damage, jsut like the back kick in TKD all you need is to put your arm by your stomach and it blocked. A Roundhouse kick can be blocked but it can hurt your arm pretty bad. The Roundhouse kick can be used in many diffrent ways but the Sidekick only is used for thrusting to your oppent. I have used the sidekick but to me i only use it as a defense so a bigger oppent than me can't get near me. Becuse i got long legs so push kicks and sidekicks sometimes help me in defense but other than that i never really use sidekicks for offense. My attcking push kick is with my heal so its allmsot like a ax kick but it attcks the stomach of my oppent. I also use the ax kick in many ways and i think its one of the most good kicks to use becuse not many fighters every expect a attck from above. All and all i would have to say the sidekick is a good defense move but is very riskly.

[Scarlet Mist]

I've blocked roundkicks with my shins, no problem. Tried to block a side kick and the shin just went back - way back. I think both kicks have their advantages and disadvantages, but I'll never stop using my sidekick.

[Kenpo Kicker]

I've blocked roundkicks with my shins, no problem. Tried to block a side kick and the shin just went back - way back. I think both kicks have their advantages and disadvantages, but I'll never stop using my sidekick.

The other day I blocked a low sidekick with my shin and it hurt (I have conditoned shins) . The heel is the hardest bone in your body. Blocking against a shin kick with your shin could also hurt badly (I have a scar from blocking one). I love both kicks and tend to use a shin kick more than a sidekick.