Hakama

[Freeform]

Just a simple question. Hakama, why?

Firstly they're very annoying to fold and clean. Secondly when being shown a technique, you first watch the hands and upper body, and then the Instructor has to hold up his Hakama to show you the footwork. Kinda looks like he's wearing a nappy (thats a diaper to our US friends).

Whats the point?

Also, I've got a Karate book from the late 50's which shows a Karate 4th Dan wearing one, I've never seen this before, any comments?

Thanx

[Fuzzy Panther]

I wear a hakama now (I've only had one for about a month) and I really like it. All I know is that it's traditional and it is a pain to fold! However I really like the "flowy" feeling I have when I'm wearing it and it really does make me appear to be more graceful as I'm very clumsy.:o I also just love the way hakamas look so I feel like my "coolness" level skyrockets another 150% when I'm wearing one.;) :D

I never heard of a Karate person wear one before though.

Fuzzy Panther
:Angel:

[Spike]

Maybe it`s so you can mess up your footwork in gradings without getting caught?

[Freeform]

When you buying one then Spike?

[Spike]

As soon as I get a grading relatively soon, you know I`m not due to grade for my white belt until 2097.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

In theory if it hides your footwork then it would make spotting telegraphs a lot harder.

[Freeform]

Yeah, but if they allowed leg takedowns in Aikido it would be great :evil:

It also gives a lot of material to snag on things.

[Jim]

Almost joined an Aikido class about 16 years ago because I saw the 'Baggy Pants' they got to wear and thought they looked cool.

:)

[Tintin]

Hakama? Surely just an excuse to get out of clearing away the mats at the end of a class.
And the nappy look is definately not in fashion at the moment!
Plus you have to take an inordinate amount of care over them, fold them properly, transport them flat etc. Far too much effort.
Then again, maybe I'll actually get round to trying one on someday ;)

[Greyghost]

TINTIN lives !!!! all hail the small furry one

[Spike]

<hails>

[Freeform]

What? He's alive? I wondered who was taking the class. Are those my feet?

****!

So was the Hakama just a traditional part of Japanese custom, like bowing, not specifically Martial orientated, just a way of life?

Thanx

[waya]

Leave it to me to be the oddball here. I have always liked Hakama. No idea why other than the traditional look they have, especially in weapons arts.

Rob

[fluffydoc]

Originally posted by waya
Leave it to me to be the oddball here.


Not likely looking at the contributors to this thread!!

Hail to the small furry one.:D

[Tintin]

I accept the hails, and thank you all. Long live my furryness, but if it goes a bit bill oddie or david bellamy you have my permission to hurt me lots.:D

[Spike]

You can count on us

[waya]

LOL finally I am the normal one :D

[med]

it is a pain when you step on your hakama when you get up. i do however think that using a hakama has helped me keep my back straight.. having the board at the back to guide really helps. now when i take it off i find my form is actually improved.. when i teach predominently lower grade classes or kids i tend not to use one though, so they can see my feet. i encourage begginners to watch the feet first, and worry about the hands later. largely because the techniques aren't 'really' done with the hands but with the hips. so if they get the feet right at least they are pointing the right way. just a thought..

:D

[officer_fujita]

In modern martial arts, like Aikido and Kendo, a hakama can help hide the practitioners footwork, so it would be hard for their opponent to predict their technique. But I doubt this was the case during the days of the samurai, as they tie their hakama to their calves when going to battle for ease of motion.

As for its importance from a spiritual (I don't know if this is the right term) point of view, the 5 pleats on the front of the hakama signify

1: Jin (benevolence)
2: Gi (justice)
3: Rei (manners)
4: Chi (wisdom)
5: Shin(faithfulness, trustfulness)

These are the qualities a warrior should have. The two pleats on the back signify the two major deities of Japan.

During the early days of aikido, O-sensei required everyone in his class to wear hakama, including the beginners. There was this one time when a student of his attended class with only his gi and pants (the one similar to what karateka use), and Ueshiba scolded him for showing up only in his "underwear". He didn't let the student participate in his class, and told him to sit in the corner and watch. After the lesson was through, Ueshiba made a long lesson about the importance of the hakama to his deshi.

[Sc0tsg1t]

The hakama was the fashion of choice amongst the Samurai class and was originally derived from the Chinese mainland. It fell out of fashion during the Hein period but the Samurai brought it back. It was used to teach economy of motion and correct postural alignment and was of great benefit to sword drills. This is also where Karateka acquire the Hakama. modern karate is unlike that of the old days as karateka used to be taught sword techniques and jujitsu. Wado Ryu still contain some techniques referring to the hakama. Over time however the light Gi that is prevelant now became more fashionable and less of a bother to look after. fashion eh?:rolleyes:

I oersonally like it as it makes my aikijitsu techniques flow with a beautiful grace and can hide any errors I make with my foot movements. I do not however like looking after it. Ho hum.:)

[YODA]

Men in frocks.... Bwaaaahahahahaaaaaaaaa......

Errr...... ok then I admit it. I've got one :D

[Sc0tsg1t]

I'm trying to find a nice pastel colour with perhaps a flower design so that I can truly blend with nature during my practice in the Spring. ;)

I'll try and find one for you as wel Yoda.

[YODA]

Nooooooooooooo............... I want a Cammo one, or perhaps a Union Jack one :D

[Tintin]

Anyone got the address of a good fetish shop so we can get a Lycra Hakama for Yoda?:eek:

[Sc0tsg1t]

I'll look on the Net for him.

[Andy Murray]

Yeah,
lurid pink with little Beanie bears sewn into the legs ;)

[YODA]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Yeah,
lurid pink with little Beanie bears sewn into the legs ;)


NOW ya talkin' :D

[Sonshu]

In traditional Japanese sword work your stance depicted your list of options for your cut.

Hide the feet then things look more fluid and also it hid the cut.

Simple - still if your crap with a sword your still dead!

SONSHU

[Freeform]

And then your crap with a sword AND look like a girl! ;)

Heh heh heh :D

Now preparing myself for the barrage of Kilt jokes.

[Sonshu]

Actually the kilt thing is another subject (bloak in a dress!)

SONSHU

[Sc0tsg1t]

there is a theory amongst certain people that the use of a kilt was to make the Highlander far more aggressive in combat.

after all, a thistle in my whistle would make me kind of angry

[Sonshu]

All them orange beards and bagpipes!!!

Scare the crap outta me (Only joking scotties)

SONSHU

[Spike]

Run! there`s a lot of men wearing skirts and blowing octopi coming this way!

[Sonshu]

Never thought of the Octopus idea!

Nice

SONSHU

[Sc0tsg1t]

I hope you haven't Sonshu....

I hear that is a felony in certain US states but legal in Florida.

Can our US buddies confirm this please? ;)

[JediMasterChris]

And then your crap with a sword AND look like a girl!


Hey!YOU FOOL! Hakama's are cool! You are just jealous...you know you can buy one if you want it that badly!

[raybri-san]

i think a hakama is part of the traditional outfit some schools said the hakama is for students from 2th kyu but when you look at the students of O'sensei everyone has to wear a hakama from 6kyu till 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8th dan and so one i can undertsand that some people have a little trouble wearing them but then i said its a part of the art (thats my personel opinion)

[Sub zero]

I haven't read the rest of this thread but hakamas make it incredibly hard for the opoponent.In my JJ club 1st dans and above wear tehm.It makes it impossible to see what the legs are doing becasue it's just a wall of darkness.

This includes kicking throwing and just general foot work.I hate fighting my instructors(Not just becasue they kick my head in) but becasue u have to react so fast becasue of the hakama.


I don't really think of bag pipes and tartan being all that scottsh.Both were imported form India.Or so it is believed.I'd much prefer to fight in a hakama than a kilt.

[Pasante]

Originally posted by raybri-san
but when you look at the students of O'sensei everyone has to wear a hakama from 6kyu till 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8th dan

yeah that's what we do at our club. Everyone can rather than has to wear a Hakama but I think most people choose to.

[PhatPete]

this is a message to Sc0tsg1t

I used to Train with Gary Buckly up until 1998, but due to one thing and another I've taken a long break from Aiki and Spirit Combat, but I want to get back in to it, is the Wandsworth Prison Officers Club still going ???

please mail me off list if possible.

many thanks..

PhatPete

[Virtuous]

I love my hakama, It makes things looks so fluid and graceful. The folding and transport isnt that much of an ordeal any more, if you do it enough it becomes second nature. I can fold mine up and have it in the bag in less than 30 seconds with out much effort now. It gets to be a real pain if you 'loose' the pleats :).

[timmeh!]

I wanna Hakama, I WANNA HAKAMA!!!

Tintin, can we have hakamas??? I know Shodokan don't have them, but we're in Scotland so no one will see....

pleeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase

[Kwajman]

Whatever happened to the poster who wanted a plaid hakama? Haven't heard a followup to that one, tho the akimac song was hysterical.....I have an elderly chinese man who lives a few houses down from mine who practices weapons in a hakama, but he does kata in a regular gi. I've asked him what art he practices but he just smiles and says its "Just something I do", tho I know its something specific like Kung fu, wushu, or karate....

[Kwajman]

How about picture post thread w/everyone who has one in their hakama...?

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by Kwajman
Whatever happened to the poster who wanted a plaid hakama? Haven't heard a followup to that one, tho the akimac song was hysterical.
That would be me. Head instructor at my school said "no." But McRok.com is interested in selling tartan hakamas. Peter over there is making a template to see if he can do it.

Don't start me laughing again with that song. (It was hysterical indeed!)

[Sub zero]

Originally posted by aikiMac
tartan hakamas


hm.
That would either look really cool or really really crap.Hmmmm. if u can get any pics whenever that would be cool.
Altho i can't imagine that tartan would be the best thing to train in.I mean a whole hackam of it would be really heavy, thick and hot.

[SPAWNPAIN]

:p I was allowed to use a hakama since the first day i started trainning aikido, i ask my ju jutsu sensei if was it possible for me to wear the hakama at jujutsu classes and he did agree , he said that the japonese people use to wear in the past when they practiced their jujutsu so why not do it nowadays. :) I think he is right.

:o I understand that the hakama is used so you can learn how to use your feet while you are in a technique , randory or kumite and with the pass of the years you will be able to fight without falling down. :)

Am i wrong Aikimac ( web mentor ):p ?

[aikiMac]

I don't know if there is a definitive explanation for the hakama. Some people tell me it's to hide the movement of the feet. Some people tell me it's to keep your back straight. Some people tell me it's to remind the wearer of the virtues that make up the Samurai code. Some people tell me, "It's tradition. And O-Sensei made a really big deal about wearing the hakama." Probably all of these explanations are simultaneously true.

The Doshu will be in California next March. I'll be getting a black hakama to wear at his seminar.

[SPAWNPAIN]

oooooooooooooosssssssssssssssuuuuuuuuuuu

[47Ronin]

The hakama were used by Samurai originally to protect their legs while riding on horse back through brush and what not.

Thought I should just let you know ( I have a pair too :D)

[Misogi]

The Hakama was a way of life for the samurai. During battles in feudal Japan, the hakama was meant to hide the movements of the feet. Aikido, Iaijutsu, Kendo, Naginata, and Kyudo which are the core elements of Budo all encourage the use of the Hakama.

[surgingshark]

I want one with a shark pattern!

[47Ronin]

Sharks aren't cool..........

[surgingshark]

So you're saying you want a Spider-Man 2 pattern?

[aikiwolfie]

I think I'll stick with my black hakama .... all I need to do now is survive until 4th dan and i get a black gi too!

[aikiwolfie]

oh yeah i for got to mention .. I've seen hakamas with paterns before ... they just don't look right.

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by aikiwolfie
oh yeah i for got to mention .. I've seen hakamas with paterns before ... they just don't look right.
Really? An iaido school shares the building we use for aikido. Most of the iaido students have hakamas with patterns and colors.

I bought an ordinary black hakama this month. Can't go naked to see the Doshu in March.

[aikiwolfie]

Yeah I've seen a few with the stars n strips and a few others with stars in all kindas of colours. Can't say i liked them much. Not that it matters that much to me since my teacher would never allow us to wear something like that.

[Dave Humm]

Info lifted directly from the Aikdo FAQ

A hakama is the skirt-like pants that some Aikidoka wear. It is a traditional piece of samurai clothing. The standard gi worn in Aikido as well as in other martial arts such as Judo or Karate was originally underclothes. Wearing it is part of the tradition of (most schools of) Aikido.

The hakama were originally meant to protect a horseman's legs from brush, etc., -- not unlike a cowboy's leather 'chaps'. Leather was hard to come by in Japan, so heavy cloth was used instead. After the samurai as a class dismounted and became more like foot-soldiers, they persisted in wearing horseman's garb because it set them apart and made them easily identifiable.

There were different styles of hakama though. The type worn by today's martial artists - with "legs" - is called a joba hakama, (roughly, horseriding thing into which one steps). A hakama that was kind of like a tube skirt - no legs - another and the third was a very long version of the second. It was worn on visits to the Shogun or Emperor. The thing was about 12-15 feet long and was folded repeatedly and placed between the feet and posterior of the visitor. This necessitated their shikko ("knee walking") for their audience and made it extremely unlikely that they could hide a weapon (retainers suited them up) or rise quickly to make an attack.

The 7 folds in the hakama (5 in the front, 2 in the back) is said to have the following symbolic meaning:

Yuki = courage, valor, bravery
Jin = humanity, charity, benevolence
Gi = justice, righteousness, integrity
Rei = etiquette, courtesy, civility (also means bow/obeisance)
Makoto = sincerity, honesty, reality
Chugi = loyalty, fidelity, devotion
Meiyo = honor, credit, glory; also reputation, dignity, prestige
In many schools, only the black belts wear hakama, in others everyone does. In some places women can start wearing it earlier than men (generally modesty of women is the explanation - remember, a gi was originally underwear).
O Sensei was rather emphatic that EVERYONE wear the hakama, but he came from a time/culture not too far from wearing hakama as standard formal wear.

"Most of the students were too poor to buy a hakama but it was required to wear one. If they couldn't get one from an older relative, they would take the cover off an old futon, cut it, dye it, and give it to a seamstress to make into a hakama.
Since they had to use cheap dye, however, after awhile the colorful pattern of the futon would start to show through and the fluff from the futon would start to work its way out of the material."

Saito Sensei, about hakama in O Sensei's dojo in the old days.

"In postwar Japan many things were hard to get, including cloth. Because of the shortages, we trained without hakama. We tried to make hakama from air-raid blackout curtains but because the curtains had been hanging in the sun for years, theknees turned to dust as soon as we started doing suwariwaza. We were constantly patching these hakama. It was under those conditions that someone came up with a suggestion: "Why don't we just say that it's okay not to wear a hakama until you're shodan?" This idea was put forward as a temporary policy to avoid expense. The idea behind accepting the suggestion had nothing to do with the hakama being a symbol for dan ranking."

Shigenobu Okumura Sensei, "Aikido Today Magazine" #41

"When I was uchi deshi to O Sensei, everyone was required to wear a hakama for practice, beginning with the first time they stepped on the mat. There were no restrictions on the type of hakama you could wear then, so the dojo was a very colorful place. One saw hakama of all sorts, all colors and all qualities, from kendo hakama, to the striped hakama used in Japanese dance, to the costly silk hakama called sendai-hira. I imagine that some beginning student caught the devil for borrowing his grandfather's expensive hakama, meant to be worn only for special occasions and ceremonies, and wearing out its knees in suwariwaza practice.

I vividly remember the day that I forgot my hakama. I was preparing to step on the mat for practice, wearing only my dogi, when O Sensei stopped me. "Where is your hakama?" he demanded sternly. "What makes you think you can receive your teacher's instruction wearing nothing but your underwear? Have you no sense of propriety? You are obviously lacking the attitude and the etiquette necessary in one who pursues budo training. Go sit on the side and watch class!"
This was only the first of many scoldings I was to receive from O Sensei. However, my ignorance on this occasion prompted O Sensei to lecture his uchi deshi after class on the meaning of the hakama. He told us that the hakama was traditional garb for kobudo students and asked if any of us knew the reason for the seven pleats in the hakama.

"They symbolize the seven virtues of budo," O Sensei said. "These are jin (benevolence), gi (honor or justice), rei (courtesy and etiquette), chi (wisdom, intelligence), shin (sincerity), chu (loyalty), and koh (piety). We find these qualities in the distinguished samurai of the past. The hakama prompts us to reflect on the nature of true bushido. Wearing it symbolizes traditions that have been passed down to us from generation to generation. Aikido is born of the bushido spirit of Japan, and in our practice we must strive to polish the seven traditional virtues."

Currently, most Aikido dojo do not follow O Sensei's strict policy about wearing the hakama. Its meaning has degenerated from a symbol of traditional virtue to that of a status symbol for yudansha. I have traveled to many dojo in many nations. In many of the places where only the yudansha wear hakama, the yudansha have lost their humility. They think of the hakama as a prize for display, as the visible symbol of their superiority. This type of attitude makes the ceremony of bowing to O Sensei, with which we begin and end each class, a mockery of his memory and his art. Worse still, in some dojo, women of kyu rank (and only the women) are required to wear hakama, supposedly to preserve their modesty. To me this is insulting and discriminatory to women Aikidoka. It is also insulting to male Aikidoka, for it assumes a low-mindedness on their part that has no place on the Aikido mat.

To see the hakama put to such petty use saddens me. It may seem a trivial issue to some people, but I remember very well the great importance that O Sensei placed on wearing hakama. I cannot dismiss the significance of this garment, and no one, I think, can dispute the great value of the virtues it symbolizes. In my dojo and its associated schools I encourage all students to wear hakama regardless of their rank or grade. (I do not require it before they have achieved their first grading, since beginners in the United States do not generally have Japanese grandfathers whose hakama they can borrow.) I feel that wearing the hakama and knowing its meaning, helps students to be aware of the spirit of O Sensei and keep alive his vision.

If we can allow the importance of the hakama to fade, perhaps we will begin to allow things fundamental to the spirit of Aikido to slip into oblivion as well. If, on the other hand, we are faithful to O Sensei's wishes regarding our practice dress, our spirits may be more faithful to the dream to which he dedicated his life."
Mitsugi Saotome Sensei, "The Principles Of Aikido"

DaveH

[Mr Blobby]

Hakama were standard dress for all traditional Japanese arts (including music and calligraphy), and are retained by all classical ryuha. The white dogi without hakama was introduced in the Meiji period (after 1867) as a modernising Western influence to make budo into sport, whence come modern karate and judo.

Practice any classical art in Japan, and you'll realise that hakama are the norm; black, blue or white, for iaido, jujitsu, kyudo, jodo, naginata-jitsu, kendo... The list goes on.

[Boxy]

[CENTER]AAAhhh yes the hakama......in our dojo (in Western Australia) we're required to wear one from your first grade onwards (6th kyu) - it's really nice and comfy in winter....but in summer (as it is now) you are swimming in your own sweat.....lovely. it's also great when you're uke and getting up after a particularly spectacular flip....then trip on the hem :eek:

But it does add a fluidity to your movements thats nice to watch....