WAR ! HUH ! What is it good for...........?

[Andy Murray]

When will we ever learn?

How many lives do we have to waste tragically on some vaguely understood cause?

The valiance of people prepared to lay down their lives in defence of their country or loved ones is unquestionable, yet they stand to lose both in the pursuit.

With all our advances made in technology, why does it still come down to take a life or lose a life?

Is there another solution, or are we one step away from destroying ourselves?

[darlph]

Andy, I hate to tell you but...
Alot of humans or greedy... for power, control, money, land, competiton, staus, and alot of other "material" things.
Then there's the religion part of it. Believe what I do or else,,,,,
that's the control....power, staus............................................. ......
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ecetera
With out this war stuff, we wouldn't have martial arts.
Viscious, Viscious circle, isn't it?
I would love to wake up one day and not hear about death, destruction and poverty.

[dragon_duplicat]

WAR ! HUH ! What is it good for...........? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!

[Greyghost]

Sing it again.




We heading that way......war is on the way, whether we get drawn into it ...who knows.

I hope not.

[YODA]

I agree - seems like our planet is on the verge of another biggie.

I fear for my kids :(

[pgm316]

The reason for the war is Iraq not living up to the terms agreed after the last conflict. The terms being not to develop chemical and nuclear weaponry.

And with the culture of Islam hating the western world I think I'd rather have a war now than when there really geared up to do some damage. Because history tells us they don't develop weapons for defensive purposes!

I struggle to see how our cultures will ever live side by side. Its ok discussing peace talks, but how can we do that while their crashing planes into buildings. Only 2 weeks ago in England there was an Islamic march through the centre of London celebrating the 9/11 disaster.

They’ve had one religious war after another there economies are in sh$t and they blame every problems on America and the western world. They are the greedy racist animals. There’s no peaceful solution that I can see, sadly…….

[darlph]

As Edwin Starr said ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!

[Darzeka]

Actually war does have its uses.

Apart from the death, pain, trauma inflicted on the soldiers (unless they were conscripted then they should be prepared for this anyway) and the civillians war accellarates the deveopement of new technologies and we quite frankly need to quickly develope some more "cleaner" mass produceable power sources and transport.
We alread know that it is possible to use these discoveries already made but the Government won't release them or stifle research due to economic factors until there is good enough reason for it (like kicking the crap out of someone).

Until there is a problem that directly influences the greater part of people will the governments and other high influences in the world desire to fix them.

War is also one of our ways of "culling" the human species and reduceing the planet's population.

I don't like war, I can't see any reason as to why anyone would wan't a war or dislike a group of people enough to wan't to kill them all, I just like to look at all situations and see the entire scope of what they are doing.

[Ghostsuit]

You know I think there would be alot less wars if it was the leader's of the nations that got put in a sealed room and had to fight to the death.

[Spike]

Darzeka`s right a lot of positive things have come out of war. The 2nd world war, had the great thing of making people all band together. People are always at their best when they have a little bit of adversity, it`s a pity that an easier can`t be found of creating that adversity

[Andy Murray]

I can't personally see that a war with the Islamic nations is going to cure any problems. I certainly feel it will cause plenty.

We can look at them as a relatively primitive and poorly armed force, yet it only takes one Holy Crusader with a bomb, a knife or an envelope of Anthrax to affect us all so drastically. Look at Vietnam, everyone thought it'd be over in days. What got solved there? Look at Northern Ireland.

The problem is that every time someone finds an answer, someone else changes the question.

If I had a vote, it would be take control of the oil fields, isolate the offending states, give em all the weapons they want and just let them kill themselves.

Nudge me when it's all over!

[Silver_no2]

Originally posted by pgm316
The reason for the war is Iraq not living up to the terms agreed after the last conflict. The terms being not to develop chemical and nuclear weaponry.So we keep getting told. Personally I would like to see a bit of evidence before I supported a full-scale invasion that would lead to the loss of thousands and thousands of lives, both military and civilian with the possible escalation into a World War.

And with the culture of Islam hating the western world I think I'd rather have a war now than when there really geared up to do some damage.Islam does not hate the western world, as reading the Koran will show, it teaches about tolerance and understanding. There are millions of Muslims across the world that do not hate the western world, including huge numbers in the UK, the US and mainland Europe.

Because history tells us they don't develop weapons for defensive purposes!What are all the tanks and fighters that we have for, decoration? They are offensive weapons that we use as a deterrent to try and stop others from attacking us. By their very nature weapons are used to attack something/someone.

I struggle to see how our cultures will ever live side by side. Its ok discussing peace talks, but how can we do that while their crashing planes into buildings.Yet prior to September 11th you could see how the two cultures could live side by side? Why is that? Surely the actions of one bunch of lunatics cannot have changed your mind? If it has, then they succeeded in their aim. People seem to forget that it was a bunch of madmen who crashed the planes into the building [i]not[i] the faith of Islam. Millions of Muslims across the globe condemned the actions of Bin Laden yet everyone wants to concentrate on the extremists that supported it. Could that be because reporting that millions were shocked and outraged doesn’t sell as many papers as concentrating on those that celebrated….or am I being too cynical here?

Only 2 weeks ago in England there was an Islamic march through the centre of London celebrating the 9/11 disaster.You're right there was. It had a couple of dozen people there in support of it and a larger number opposing it! How many Muslims are there in the London area alone? I have no idea but I reckon that there are more than a couple of dozen!!!! Do not judge everyone based on a small number of people that have extremist views!!

They’ve had one religious war after another there economies are in sh$t and they blame every problems on America and the western world.How ridiculous of them! It’s not that their main religious war is that with Israel, one caused by Britain and America when, having promised the Jews a nation of their own, should they help bankroll World War 2, we took a chunk of land (kicking all the Palestinians off of it), made it into Israel, and made enormous profits by selling the Israelis all their military equipment!! On the point of their economies being sh$t - I'm not sure which countries in the region you were referring to as, due to the natural resources that they have, many of the Arab states are rich.

I’m not condoning the actions of these people, I think that what they did is disgusting, cowardly and if there is a hell I hope they burn in it forever! I just think that it is wrong to ignore the context of the situation and the region.

They are the greedy racist animals. There’s no peaceful solution that I can see, sadly……. ”. Interesting how this started out as a post on the possibility of war with Iraq and is now a rant against Islam and the Arab nations as a whole. Viewing them as animals is not going to help to solve the situation. It is going to mean that the likelihood of another World War will increase. What people have to remember is that the last two world wars were against nation states – not against religions. Find out how many Muslims there are outside of the Arab nations, how many Christians/Jews/Sikhs/Hindus/Buddhists etc. there are within the Arab nations, and then it’s suddenly not quite so clear cut!


Just to give you some background on myself…I spent three years living in the region as a child, I come from a military family and I believe in the need for action. I do not agree with this generalisation of an entire region and religion and I do not agree with charging into a war because George W. Bush feels the need to invigorate the US economy.

[Freeform]

Sitting reading this with Fluffydoc and she sais (and I quote):

'Thats the most intelligent thing that I've ever heard come out of Silver'

I agree, with her and your good self.

Thanx

[pgm316]

The U.N. and it's controlling European/ Asian interests have imposed numerous restrictions against Iraq over the years, yet never, NEVER back up those restrictions. Iraq ignores the UN trade embargo? No problem. Iraq kicks weapon inspectors out? No problem. Iraq shoots at US & UN peacekeeping forces? Not only does the UN not think thats a problem, the US gets grief for retaliating.

The Islamic world does widely hate America, there are other problems apart from 9/11
There economies are in sh$t, could you disagree with that?? I know they should be because of the oil....................
There was a little more than a couple of dozen people marching at London.

Maybe it did turn into a rant against the Arab nations.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

You might find, with the way that America acts a lot of the time, that its not just the Islamic world that dislikes its policies.

And judging by yourself I'm starting to sympathise.

If you want to comment on religious wars, then lets not forget the Crusades, and the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland. And who can forget Bloody Queen Mary?

What about Hitler? He justified his war partly by claiming religion.

Don't give credit for religious wars wholly to those still fighting them just because we got over them faster by having more resources, and more dumb luck.

And don't say that a religion is to blame. If people want to fight a war, they will, and all that we can hope is that the few maniacs who really want the war are the first to die.

Speaking of which did you hear about Pakistan during the war on Afghanistan? Apparently some Muslim fanatics protested that they were being prevented from fighting alongside their religious brethren. Pakistan promptly opened up the border, and told them all to take their swords (they didn't have guns) and go and fight alongside them.

[pgm316]

OK then, maybe I have put over some points in a bad way.
But you have to admit the situation is bad and it can't just be ignored hoping it will go away!?

And, if I am so wrong why so many people scared of terrorist attacks coming from the middle east and many people now sh$t scared to even go on a plane!? Can’t tell me I’m wrong on that one, you just need to look at the trouble the airline industry is in!

I don’t even think your solution of gassing everyone to sleep will help on this one….

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Well lessee. I'm terrified of going to Northern Island for the same reason. I'm sure there are people in the Middle East who're terrified of flying, with the suspicion they'll be under, and the attacks they'll suffer at the hands of people who attack them because a few lunatics who claim to follow the 'true' version of their religion killed people. Part of the problem is that strict Muslims are easily identifiable.

Good question, I really don't understand why people are scared to go on planes. Hell, so long as it brings down prices so I can fly more I really don't care. People are scared because people are naturally paranoid and terrified of everything the media tells them to be terrified of (note that when I use people in this context I refer to those same people that refer to doing things 'for the greater good').

I don't see why it wouldn't help. It'd be completely secure.

[pgm316]

Your absolutely right in what you say there.

A few people have said how wrong I am, thats ok I don't mind people having different opinions. And sometimes I say things to stir up a discussion.

However, I wish that people would put forward their solution to the problem instead of just disagreeing with others.

[Freeform]

The U.N. and it's controlling European/ Asian interests have imposed numerous restrictions against Iraq over the years, yet never, NEVER back up those restrictions.


Firstly what Asian interests? I think you'll find that it was the U.S, Canada, Austrailia and members of the Western European Alliance who imposed the trade sanctions. These sanctions have been backed up by the western countries who control most of the high technology (which there are strict controls of), and the medicines which the coalition force countries have tried to control, but control of which then breaks down in Iraq where they try to keep them for the elite and military.
Also, most of their trade goes on in the blackmarket with other Middle Eastern countries, do you want us to start carpet bombing countries that we suspect of breaking the UN embargo?


Iraq ignores the UN trade embargo? No problem. Iraq kicks weapon inspectors out? No problem. Iraq shoots at US & UN peacekeeping forces? Not only does the UN not think thats a problem, the US gets grief for retaliating.

I've already answered some of these, to the others.

They kicked out the weapons inspectors, coalition peacekeepers went to a higher state of alert and allowed less infringement of the no-fly zone. To counter this Iraq sets up anti-aircraft weapons, in response the US and UK peacekeepers acting under the coalition forces guidelines destroy the AA batteries. Iraq sets up better camoflauged AA batteries, takes out a US (think it was an F-15) on combat air patrol, US/UK retaliation was swift by the bombing of the AA batteries and suspected weapons dumps, Iraq claims civilian casualties.
The UN is basically the world court, a moderating body between parties which has to look at all problems inpartially like a court of law, it has to look into these claims of civilian casualties AND the coalition forces claims of weapons of mass destruction.


The Islamic world does widely hate America, there are other problems apart from 9/11


No it doesn't, the tabloid media frontpages extemists to sell newspapers, the idea that the Islamic world hates America is due to self imposed ignorance, I take it you don't read the broadsheets (those are the newspapers without the naked t!ts in them).


There economies are in sh$t, could you disagree with that?? I know they should be because of the oil....................

This comment makes no sense, I think you've been reading newspapers with naked t!ts in them again.
The nation of Islam boasts the richest country in the world as a menber (the UAE) and other member countries are easily in the top 10 in the world.



There was a little more than a couple of dozen people marching at London.


Hmm, that must be the entire Islamic population of London... I don't think so, I'm not particularly worried about groups of 'rabid angry Arabs' attacking me in the street.

Maybe it did turn into a rant against the Arab nations.


Yes it did, now don't you think you owe an apology?


I know these facts because I read 'real' newspapers, and am lucky enough to be aware of the CIA, US forces Intel and coalition countries Intel brief on Capitol Hill 2 weeks ago (which you can find on the CNN website), and I'm also waiting for Prime Minister Blair to publish his official report on the situation (I believe its due today).

Whats your news source Mr pgm316?

[pgm316]

I’m sorry for having my own opinions.

Guess I’d better stop buying the sun eh!?

Glad you think everything is fine, lets hope your right……..

[Freeform]

I never said everything is alright, I was just clearing up your misperceptions with cold hard facts.

Its also a fact that out of the 800+ tonnes of chemical components of VX gas that the Iraqis have been known to import, only 600 tonnes have been accounted for by coalition intel sources.

[pgm316]

So how would you deal with this misappropriation of VX gas?

[Freeform]

Well to start with it is assumed it isn't yet VX gas, so thats a little bit of a breather (no pun intended).

Its a very difficult question regarding the current situation and one I'm glad I don't have to answer. I assume that the coalition has assets in place trying to find it, I'm not a chemist so I don't know how to dispose of it.

[pgm316]

Still very worrying when so much gas can't be accounted for. That being just one of America's concerns, you can see why its reaching crisis point again.

[Greyghost]

I hope this upload works.

Just like to say that i will be holding a minutes silence on the 11 for the victims of the Twin Towers Tragedy. I will also be holding a minutes silence at The Club on thursday night.

Here is, however a nice quote from stormin Norman.......whilst it is funny i hope that you all appreciate the thought behind it.

amen.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

You want my simple solution to the problem, its not a nice one, I'll say that.

Give the civilians a week to leave any country that supports a terrorist attack along the lines of September 11th. Then, once the week is up, tear the country to pieces.

You probably won't need to do it more than once before people get the message. Of course, I wouldn't like to be the person trying to justify it to the press.

Its one of those greater good issues. Maybe doing that will prevent one more innocent civilian from dying than would otherwise. If you save one single extra life than you would by not doing it, is the action worth the price?

[Freeform]

[quote[Still very worrying when so much gas can't be accounted for.[/quote]

Still not listening, current Intel suggests that the components haven't been through the process of becoming VX gas.

Still, we have to assume that Iraq may have these components for a perfectly legitimate reason (although I severely doubt it).

Lets hope it hasn't been processed into the gas yet, as I've been informed that VX is incredibly hard to destroy.

By the way, it's not just America that should be concerned.