chi is biomagnetism!!

[God]

eureka!

[Greg-VT]

Good for it.

Can we have an explanation? :D

;)

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Ah good, glad you've solved the puzzle.

Now lets have a shred of proof, or evidence?

Shouldn't be too hard, if its any form of magnetism then someone using chi should divert a compass.

[Syd]

Oh dear, here we go again *L*

The levels of emittance in regards to human bioelectricity are so minute that they would not alter a compass, this does not mean bioelectricity does not exist.... it is clearly proven within the realms of western medicine already.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Bioelectricity yes, through ionic chemicals rather than more classical current.

However this does not mean that chi is bioelectricty, and particularly does not mean it is 'biomagnetism'. If you want a better test, simple, get a sensitive compass (yes, they do exist) and place it near a person. Now get them to use chi. If chi is actually 'biomagnetism' the compass needle should waver.

Either way, if chi is biomagnetism and your development of chi improves your sensitivity to it, every chi practitioner should quickly learn to be able to point true north in a fully enclosed room after being spun around several times.

[nzric]

This always makes me laugh.

First of all - if it's as simple as that, it's measurable. That means if you demonstrate it not only will you win a Nobel prize and get millions of dollars, you will also give human knowledge a huge push for the greater good. So why don't you go out and prove it, or get a 'master' to give us a quantum leap in global knowledge?!

Second - it reminds me of the "magnet therapy" that's trendy now - wearing magnets on your body. I was talking to a scientist friend of mine who regularly works in labs with huge magnetic fields, in order to do experiments. If chi/magnet therapy worked, he would be f...ed (excuse my french), but he's fine (and also an avid tai chi student, so he knows all about cultivating/sensing chi).

[Syd]

I did not claim that Qi was biomagnetism, only that the bodies bioelectric current is too weak to alter a compass.

[47Ronin]

Huh???

[LilBunnyRabbit]

I did not claim that Qi was biomagnetism, only that the bodies bioelectric current is too weak to alter a compass.

Personally I was referring to the thread rather than your post specifically, but even so the human body's electromagnetic field is not exactly a challenge to measure, and its true that if someone can sense it in themselves and others then they should be able to consistently point out magnetic north whenever asked.

[Aravi]

I've always considered Chi to be a more complex blend of concepts, some of which might be explainable with modern medical science, some not (eg, muscle memory can explain some power generation).

And I think it also represents the power of the human spirit to an extent - there is alot of potential there to be harnessed.

[David]

Wow, chi is bi...

/me falls asleep mid sentence

[hwardo]

:eek:

Oh no. I think that we might have exhausted this argument last week.

That said, the bio-magnetism argument hasn't really held water in the past, IMHO because chi is directly related to your mind and intention, which may or may not be magnetic (I know mine is ;) ).

[God]

this post was meant to be a joke, sorry i didn't put any emoticons in it. but i was serious. i absolutely intend to research it, which of course is quite comical since i'm a real person posting on a message board rather than a distant idol backed by a cambridge education and harvard grants.

i saw a word in a qigong book i have, in reference to the blood.

dipole!

OF COURSE!

it makes so much sense!

dipole...iron content of the blood...face south to meditate...rare earth magnet fountain of youth finger clips....MRI machines...

my head just about exploded.

as i pondered and meditated that idea, i came to the dual conclusion that qi can probably narrowly be defined as the phenomenon of blood flow reacting to magnetic forces created within the body, but is enjoying the continued application to that of all the systems of the body...in other words, there is an inexplicable medical phenomenon that chi already covers, but chi also works with separate principles, like blood flow, nervous system, certain respiratory systems...

that's probably because china learned to work chi as a whole...separate techniques working separate systems...and never differentiated. since one aspect is unsolved, it comes down to us as an entire entity...no one says "that's just improving circulation, not chi!"

how much of this is the "same old song and dance"? :rolleyes: :D

you know what would be a good idea? what if everyone who was interested enough to fight on a message board about chi could possibly exchange ideas in a meaningful sense...maybe, just maybe being able to admit when we're wrong ONCE...just maybe one of us will lift a finger to do some actual research instead of speculation...

hopefully, with the iron shirt of knowledge, i'll be able to debunk some of the adversarial prodding of the nonbelievers and maybe one day give someone a leg up on sorting this mess out.

[David]

Good luck, god :)

We're all different and it'd be pretty cool on one level if you sussed it all out.

The way I see it is that if the old way works and you're so worked up about it, why aren't you mastering it instead of fannying about with all this intellectualisation and research of things that have already been found. The amazing thing about new ways of understanding old things is that there's no point in it if you're not doing it.

Rgds,
David

then to beat it you should master it, then improve it because otherwise you're

[God]

in the days before hot-air baloons they knew smoke rose. and it does of course...they made preliminary hot-air baloons using THIS principle...not the principle that warm air rises. of course this was ridiculously inefficient...when they discovered that just hot AIR rises they found a more efficient and practical source to achieve that hot air and thus buoyancy.

of course, the smoke worked too....

why master the art of building wood-burning hot-air baloons before you see if they're practical?

[Reiki]

I think I previously posted a link to a scientific paper that a MA group presented on ki......

will look it up for you because it has some good information in it

[Sub zero]

Originally posted by God


why master the art of building wood-burning hot-air baloons before you see if they're practical?


I believe one term is "standing on tehshoulders of giants". It would be like saying right........i'm gonna learn how to use my chi to improve my fighting ability, but not worry about stances how i strike etc

[Capt Ann]

Many years ago I read about a study of men's and women's differing abilities to navigate underground (follow a maze of tunnels and have a sense of where you are without a compass or external reference point). In general, the study showed the male students were much better at judging where they were and which direction they were heading. The researchers theorized that this had to do with the level of iron in the blood stream, which was generally lower for the female students participating in the study.

Yes, there are magnetic fields on earth that effect biological processes in people. NZric is right--the effects would be miniscule in martial arts practice. I think it's a real stretch to try to rationalize a belief in "chi" by relating it to electromagnetism.

[nzric]

The whole principle of chi is that you can feel it.

If you stand next to a magnet, you can't feel it.


So what has magnetism got to do with the idea of chi??

[God]

Originally posted by Sub zero
I believe one term is "standing on tehshoulders of giants". It would be like saying right........i'm gonna learn how to use my chi to improve my fighting ability, but not worry about stances how i strike etc

first of all, since my post was a response in opposition to a completely totalitarian post suggesting i forget about all that intellectual stuff and rather just do it...questioning the very purpose of understanding to begin with...assuming that my intent was to ignore all the research on chi and never even pick up a book on it would be offensive to the angst-filled teenager deep within me :D and completely out of context.

second, chi as an idea is not a giant. it's a stump. the more effectively "proven" scientific research/theory in an idea, the bigger it is and the more solid it is....qi has all that, but it's weaker than twigs. it's all theory, and my idea here is to make THE KNOWLEDGE ALREADY THERE into a real, solid tree. i'm not attempting to sit on top of all this "proven" knowledge on qi and extend it, which would be more appropriate to your giant analogy...there's nothing to stand on...

[God]

Originally posted by Capt Ann
Many years ago I read about a study of men's and women's differing abilities to navigate underground (follow a maze of tunnels and have a sense of where you are without a compass or external reference point). In general, the study showed the male students were much better at judging where they were and which direction they were heading. The researchers theorized that this had to do with the level of iron in the blood stream, which was generally lower for the female students participating in the study.

Yes, there are magnetic fields on earth that effect biological processes in people. NZric is right--the effects would be miniscule in martial arts practice. I think it's a real stretch to try to rationalize a belief in "chi" by relating it to electromagnetism.

on your second point, that's an excellent opinion... but how does it hold any water? i'm assuming you at least have a bachlor's degree in anatomy and physiology or neuroscience to be able to claim specific ratios between the snesitivity of blood and nerve endings to that of the geomagnetic field...

the rapid, uniform movement of dipoles in the blood around the capillaries in small circles could be enough to produce electric current...since nerves work in practically immeasurably small currents (sorta), it's unbelievably easy to see how after working biomagnetic dipoles in the blood that you could induce sensations in the extremities as a result of induced current.

[Sub zero]

Could it not be possible that chi is made up of more than one factor. One of these to any degree large or small , ebing bio electricity.

[Syd]

Looks to the heavens and laughs.... ;)

[nzric]

Maybe if you put a tai chi master in front of an electromagnet, he'd stick to it and start to break apart, like the robot in Terminator 3.

Next time I see Erle, I'll use my fridge magnet shirukens on him.

[nzric]

chi!

[Syd]

I was going to bring some fridge magnets and plyers to the park next time... I'm convinced from that photograph that this is the future of martial arts.

One thing though... the picture looks a bit external though. Shouldn't the hammers and other objects be on the inside?

Is this Bunnings Style Palm? Or are we talking BBC Style Palm?

[Shade]

so THATS what iron shirt is :D

right, where's me power tools

[David]

God, my minor point about chi is that all the research has been done. ;)

You are free to ignore all that and rephrase it all in such a way as people who don't give a monkey's can work with it with gadgets n stuff. I'm just a bit of a Luddite and see technology and dry scientific research shoe-horning us into Armageddon. The annoying thing is I'd lap up all this research to justify my practise :D

I've had musings in this general area myself years ago. I once began to look into Kirlian photography. It transpired the necessary equipment would cost me over £300 which equated to two months' money at the time. That was game over for my research.

Some random thoughts:
A girl I once knew would interfere with TV pictures when she was within a couple of feet of them. The thing about men knowing which way to go while women have no idea is a common experience for me. The human body has a natural tremor of 8-12Hz which is precisely the frequency at which you can listen to thunder-storms around the world. Chi is motion, mind, blood, fluids, electricity. It's supposed to be considered as a whole when applying it to the human condition.

Rgds,
David

[Syd]

David,

Quite seriously, I was an old student of Traditional Chinese Medicine and while at University I studied Western Medicine and the regular Nursing studies right alone side TCM. Something that frequently came to the fore was the fact that while Chinese medicine looks at the body Wholisticaly, Western Medicine has the habit of isolating and disecting aspects of disease and alienating everything else from anything else.

So while an Accupuncturist or Tui Na massage therapist will treat a Kidney problem taking the whole body, mind and spirit in mind, Western Medics will look only at the Kidney and fail to take into account the entire being and all that implies.

This for me is where, how and why Science fails to come to grips with the concept of Qi because the paradigms are so disctincly removed from one another. What does not make sense though is that because science fails to explain or prove a thing, many of this bent tend to rule everything outside it's purview out, entirely.

Best, Syd

[God]

david, the "minor point" you so hastefully made in deep reflection of your past naievete completely debunked something i had my heart set on doing...

this must be a tough concept to grasp for the arm-chair phds of all things who frequent this board, but there is information someone on earth knows that i do not. a generally accepted term for collecting this information is "research".

and Syd, you self-righteously-enlightened smartass peon, for someone who clearly has a good deal of knowledge on the subject, you really exemplify the ancient western art of comprehension without conclusion.

western medicine was based on similar holistic ideas until "science" was invented. i believe some of those ancient ways still carry over...such as calling the circulatory system a system and not just looking at each individual capillary

clearly, since western science has a lot of myopic microbiology, it's the only thing studied. it's much more difficult and worth more time, research, and study to understand how the nervous system works as a conceptual system rather than the individual, physical components. therefore the majority of neuroscience should be devoted to this...

actually, in western science, no one has ever studied the nervous system as a conceptual whole. we have no idea how it works together...no one ever thought of that. it would take the genius chinese to do something like this. this is clearly the hole in western biology.

most things were learned because scientists dug up corpses, ripped them up, threw everything they could see under a microscope and said "LOOK AT THAT! i'll call it a cell! who cares what it does? those little things inside it! let's calll them organelles!"

this is so because of the hyperactive, extrospective western culture we live in. these researchers wanted instant gratification, which they got through the arduous and painstaking field of scientific research and debate. microbiology is highly easy to understand, unlike the chinese approach.

the chinese, on the other hand, sat and thought. they relaxed their body and pondered the difficult task of making **** up and seeing if it works. the chinese thought this all up two thousand years ago. if they were wrong, don't you think someone would have corrected them?

unlike it's profound negative effect on western science, the microscope did not phase the chinese. at that time, chinese medicine had been working for hundreds of years. the chinese, being the stoic, enlightened researchers they were, simply cast the microscope aside. it's been workingbefore? only a fool would question it.

and now, as a result of the invention of the microscope, chinese medicine has been effective for thousands of years, and is even more sound and effective.

thank you sir for such an enlightening observation. you are truly gifted...hopefully you will do great things someday and i will be grateful for having known you! just as the chinese did not go to great lengths to describe their medicine, you chose the minimalist approach at explaining why a holistic view is best. just as the chinese did not arduously and dilligently ponder and question, you did not ponder or question the validity or meaning behind your myopic observation.

you also posted a humourous picture, revealing the ignorance of my ways. of course!! western science is ignorant and wrong. by OUR account, that simply wouldn't happen if chi was biomagnetism...because we have these crazy, detailed descriptions of how dipoles function...and it's all simply wrong. if we only understood how it worked. the chinese would realize this and say "what a foolish notion. a magnet the size of a man would attract metal things, so if there is any magnetism in a man, he owuld attract mangetic things. this idea is wrong"

i am very glad you have shown me so gracefully why my theory is wrong. and without scientific proof of any sort! i am highly impressed. i will spend the remainder of my life pondering your intellectual gift and perfection.

[hwardo]

Woah, Woah, Woah, God.

I have been in enough debates on this board to know that Syd and David are stand-up gentlemen. A lot of people have been pretty nasty about chi cultivation on this board, and if that is what you are looking to discuss, I wouldn't be so quick to anger with these guys-- they know what they're talkin' about.

Keep it easy... just a forum for discussion, after all. That's what happens here- we discuss it.

[Syd]

*L* Gee... what a brain ache you must have. All those large pronouncements and with no-where to go.

As to the picture, it was not I who posted it but rather someone else of ingenious wit, to stir your lumpy gravy. ;)

I made my statement and ofcourse chose a simplistic model for expressing myself in the efficient and concise manner, unlike you who spouts reems, appears knowing but who is entirely boorish and without substance other than that skidmark which feigns a fine line between clever and stupidly clever.

Spare us the cutter... *yawn in ancient Chinese*

[David]

Originally posted by God
david, the "minor point" you so hastefully made in deep reflection of your past naievete completely debunked something i had my heart set on doing...

etc etc

Good post God, but if we can be serious for a moment, it was lack of money rather than naivety that led to me aborting my own ground-breaking :) research.

I encourage you to do yours, though I qualify that encouragement with the advice that if you spend all your life researching it without cultivating it, you will have missed the point of life. This is what I've said in all but my first post.

If I can get philosphically simplistic about it (yeah, yeah 'what's new?'), what if you researched love without having the feeling from inside you? :Alien: It is precisely this missing gestalt (a western term) principle which leads to pharmacological solutions to mental and emotional problems just because certain chemicals are/aren't present in the 'sufferer'. It's the body that made/stopped making the problem chemicals. It's the mind that told the body to do it and it's the mind that can put it back together.

So what if modern science's methods are clever, if the resultant understanding is off-target then it's off-target. The target for all of us should, finally, be understanding of self.

This is only my opinion, as Killbill says in his sig: I'm just 1/6,4000,000,000 of the World's population.

Right, that's enough soft-headedness from me! Who wants a fight? :D

Sincere rgds,
David

[nzric]

God - you're getting mighty testy under that sarcasm aren't you? It was me who put up the pictures, I admit it, and my stirring obviously worked.

You haven't answered my question though. What does magnetism have to do with chi, when it can be proven conclusively that magnetism has absolutely no effect on the human body? I think the only similarity that chi has to magnetism is that they're both invisible.

David: What's this about humans having a "natural tremor of 8-12Hz"??? I'm really interested in that. I am a part time hack writer, and I'm working on a story idea that includes something like this. Can you point me in the right direction for the evidence for this - it would help a lot to give scientific backing for my story.

Cheers!


Bring it on guys - this is fun!

[Falling_link]

Whooohay the truth about Chi at last!

[David]

Originally posted by nzric
David: What's this about humans having a "natural tremor of 8-12Hz"??? I'm really interested in that. I am a part time hack writer, and I'm working on a story idea that includes something like this. Can you point me in the right direction for the evidence for this - it would help a lot to give scientific backing for my story.

My problem is that I have 4,540,325 bizarre snippets in my mind and no bibliography. I am the guy who goes to the bookshop and buys a book he already owns because he forgot he had it.

I've just had a look around google to try to remind me where it came from. No luck. I'll sleep on it and see if it comes back to me.

Rgds,
David

[Shade]

Hey ric you could have a look here

http://www.eegfree.com/English/product.html

also mentioned here

http://www.eng.nsf.gov/engnews/2000/00-03_parkinsons.htm

and maybe more interestingly here

http://moebius.psy.ed.ac.uk/MagFields_H.html

[Shade]

Found some more links

http://www.earthvibemusic.com/cd/brainwave.html

http://www.brainmachines.com/frequencies.html

http://www.mindsurfing.com/understanding.htm


THIS ONE maybe more apt here though

http://www.universal-tao.com/article/rhythmical.html

[Syd]

I've got quite a few tasty books on the shelf which talk about these matters, I'll do a bit of a biblio search...

Theremin and people like Tesla are also nice places to look for such.

[nzric]

Thanks guys, that's a lot of help.

[God]

David, I know more about chi than about biomagnetism as it is. When did I say I wasn't going to? One thing I find extremely consistent throughout this forum is the affinity for buzzwords...it seems as soon as I said "research" your mind said "RESEARCH!? YOUNG FOOL, LEARN THE ANCIENT WAYS NOW, RESEARCH LATER!" and turned your mind off to all possibilities...

Syd...
ironic isn't it? Please note the lack of explanation in my initial posts... I wouldn't want someone with the flu giving me a flu shot...that was indeed your own medicine. Don't claim immunity.

Nzric...
I wouldn't call men running around with magnets to see if they grow 2 heads conclusive research. In situations like this, citation is often proper, and at least some qualification of the word "conclusive" is pretty damn necessary.

[nzric]

So .... how are you saying chi is related to magnetism??

Chi can be felt
Chi flows are variable throughout the body
Chi is beneficial to health
You can develop and control chi

Magnets... ?

Seems you just heard the word 'biomagnetism' somewhere, thought it's catchy and thought "hey, maybe that's chi".

We appreciate your enthusiasm, but next time it may be an idea to post your Eureka moment AFTER you've done a little research.

[God]

i've never heard the term you wiseass.

this post was a joke.

next time, get a clue before you baselessly attack someone and try to defend yourself.

i've explained what i've conceptualized already in this thread, i'm not going to repeat myself for you, especially under such juvenile duress.

[nzric]

Don't need to defend myself, got nothing to defend. I was just making light of your absurd idea (obviously what you wanted people to do because as you said, "this post is a joke").

Seems I'm on your side all along.

Good luck with your research. We'd all be keen to know what you uncover.

[God]

i was expecting lots of these--:D

of course it's only absurd if you have such a myopic view of qi that you can't comprehend it as being anything but an actual, physical, detectable mass that physically flows and circulates just as water does throughout the body.

like i said before...and unlike i said i wouldn't say what i said before again, i am saying it again...

qi could probably be described as a "tent" term. it encompasses a number of biological ideas, probably including certain aspects of blood circulation, the respiratory system and nervous system.

in addition, it also probably covers inexplicable phenomena... maybe one of those phenomena could possibly be an induced current that occurs as the blood flows around the capillaries...this circular motion, since it occurs quickly, COULD induce nervous reactions.

of course, that's to assume the iron content in the blood is strong enough for it to effectively make the blood magnetic, that the capillaries are circular enough to induce a current, that the pumping of the blood occurs fast enough to generate a tingling sensation, and a bunch of other things which can obviously be found in books. i might have to do a little bit of "putting 2 and 2 together"...and maybe even set up an actual experiment.

another sensation could be just the reaction blood has to magnetism. this is way more likely. if you can recall that psycho who insisted that you could have eternal life by wearing his magnetic clips...everything he said seemed very believable (well, of course exagerrated)...he even claimed he felt sick when he reversed the poles of the magnets...

the magnets were applied to the extremities and were very powerful. their fields were extremely coordinate to that of the direction of the capillary action.

blood with iron content in the low %'s..you know, like 1%...being pumped as strongly as the heart pumps will obviously not make the magnet move around your arm. but of course, something so sensitive would require precise measurements and actual NUMBERS to determine if magnetic fields have a meaningful effect on blood flow.

[nzric]

I bet you believe in astrology too. Same principle - you know, but with gravity (no, the other kind of gravity. This thread is still a joke).

[God]

are you a troll or an imbecile?

[nzric]

No, I thought you were the troll.

You said yourself, this thread was started as a joke, so we've been treating it like a joke. But then you defend your position, but only up to a point because you say you need to do more research.

We've got a couple of options:

We treat this thread like a joke, and we don't take each other seriously (you seem to be taking this all very seriously). I've only been stating my own opinion, as is everyone else, and since you said this is a joke thread, I've made some jokes of my own.

Or you go and do some research, then you come back with evidence and we can have a serious discussion about your theory in another thread. As long as you're open to constructive criticism.

I'm happy either way. It doesn't help to get offended and call everyone names. And for the record, I think chi is just good body mechanics (as I've said in hundreds of other posts) - I don't think it's a real force.

Moral - don't expect to be taken seriously in a thread that you say yourself is a joke.

[Syd]

God ... the name is ironic yes!

[David]

I like this thread, safe in the knowledge that God loves me. (I think God is something to do with magnets but that's another story!)

Originally posted by God
qi could probably be described as a "tent" term. it encompasses a number of biological ideas, probably including certain aspects of blood circulation, the respiratory system and nervous system.

It would be a misunderstanding of chi to call it an idea that encompasses other component ideas. Chi is precisely that which should not be broken down into components.

The ease with which you get wound-up is a joy to observe :D. I'd say your research credentials are on a good trajectory with the impetus resulting from your new persecution complex. I knew my faith in you would bear fruit.

nzric, regarding the 10Hz cycles, I don't think I sourced it from alpha wave studies but I still don't remember anything. I'll go to my bookshelf and see what it has for me. Ye gads! I think I have it... but it's a book I leant to my father some years ago; the one he thought was a gift because he was convalescing after an injury...

Rgds,
David

[Syd]

Love the post pretentious web site for anti (read for really trying hard to be oblique and underground) establishment non music, music website.

Got three words for ya bub... silence is golden!

(For those wondering, check Dogs profile for web addy)

[Shade]

I must be getting old maybe.

I checked out God's site and didnt really understand any of it.

[God]

Originally posted by nzric
No, I thought you were the troll.

You said yourself, this thread was started as a joke, so we've been treating it like a joke. But then you defend your position, but only up to a point because you say you need to do more research.

We've got a couple of options:

We treat this thread like a joke, and we don't take each other seriously (you seem to be taking this all very seriously). I've only been stating my own opinion, as is everyone else, and since you said this is a joke thread, I've made some jokes of my own.

Or you go and do some research, then you come back with evidence and we can have a serious discussion about your theory in another thread. As long as you're open to constructive criticism.

I'm happy either way. It doesn't help to get offended and call everyone names. And for the record, I think chi is just good body mechanics (as I've said in hundreds of other posts) - I don't think it's a real force.

Moral - don't expect to be taken seriously in a thread that you say yourself is a joke.

at what point did the post necessarily become the embodiment of my thoughts on the subject?

when i said joke, sorry for the confusion, i was defending the starting of this thread. OF COURSE i'm not going to pretend that my little speculation is the truth, much less without any evidence...that was intended to be funny. i would have laughed, but i guess i have a stupid sense of humour.



david - no, you misunderstand me, again.

i know chi as it is describes one phenomenon but it could actually be multiple separate phenomena.



that website would again be the result of my friends and my own sense of humour.

but wouldn't it be really nice and convenient for you if we really were trying to turn the music world on its ear and lead a revolution of avant garde musicians?

i wouldn't say that you wouldn't get it, but.....you just wouldn't get it.:p

[zun]

LOL! This is so funny. Somewhere along the lines you guys got cross-lined.

Peace. :D

[nzric]

Is there an award for "most surreal thread"? I think we've all been standing too close to some iron filings (joke dude)

Dog - Your site rocks the Casbah. Asa lama lakim boyeeee

David - I've been looking for anything about how sound waves/harmonics influence the human body. Strange topic but I've found some good stuff. Anything else you can suggest would be great.

[God]

I must be too uptight...I would have gotten offended by that joke if you hadn't said anything...

I give up.

[David]

Originally posted by God
david - no, you misunderstand me, again.

i know chi as it is describes one phenomenon but it could actually be multiple separate phenomena.

Ah, you were talking about cheese, all along! I'm with ya, now :)

Originally posted by nzric
David - I've been looking for anything about how sound waves/harmonics influence the human body. Strange topic but I've found some good stuff. Anything else you can suggest would be great.

Here's (http://www.centerpointe.com/) a link which takes the strangeness to strange lands. Binarual beats for mind expansion...

Here's a funny thing I remember: -

When I was a teenager I got hold of some info on strobe effects and seizures which I thought sounded like somethign I should have a go at! I wrote a program to flash the screen at me with controls for faster and slower. I didn't want my parents to know what I was doing so I waited until they went out before trying it.

I remember being nervous but overcame that by taking as many precautions as I could think of for if I lost control. I moved things out of the way, got down onto the floor and used loads of cushions and bedding to pad everything around me. Then I ran the program.

...Damn thing was useless: the computer was not up to running my BASIC program fast enough and there were problems with the frames per second that the screen could manage. Now, I consider it fortunate that I didn't know machine code at the time :D.

Rgds,
David

[nzric]

Haha, let me know if that works!

Reminds me of how my younger brother and his friends used to lie down and hyperventilate, then stand up quickly to make themselves faint. Always got them out of gym class.

[Syd]

Reminds me of those Japanese Manga programs that had Japanese kids having seizures and going psycho due to subliminal messages and the like.

Sound is another one of those tasty little devices used in Psy-ops and psychological warfare in order to induce instant vomiting and the emptying of bowels on the spot.

[nzric]

Sound is another one of those tasty little devices used in Psy-ops and psychological warfare in order to induce instant vomiting and the emptying of bowels on the spot.

I heard there's a new riot control weapon that uses microwaves - it makes you feel like you're skin is burning but it causes no real damage.

Do you think it would be possible to induce other behaviour if the sound was used in a low level?

I'm trying to figure out if you could use these weapons (sound and microwaves) on large groups of people without them knowing there was an external cause (e.g. to induce rage/panic). What do you think?

(btw - I hope the training went well today. I went to the gym then did tai chi on a great hilltop on Macquarie's point, but I promised the g-f I'd spend the rest of the day with her, since she's going to nz. Hope to catch up with you and A soon.)

[David]

The thing about microwaves is that they heat you up all the way through, assuming you're not too large... A microwave device large enough to heat a crowd would surely need a hefty power source. If it worked, it had the power, it would cause sterility and interfere with mobile phones, both of which are illegal.

A burning skin thing sounds like infrared, maybe.

As someone who likes the occasional riot, I'll have to think of a countermeasure... Bring back Maggie Thatcher, them were the days. My favourite image from a demonstration is a large empty thoroughfare with a solid row of Police at the far end, linked arms with their shields up. There's a canister of tear gas in the foreground spewing forth its contents. The only person in the area is a protester. He's wearing roller-blades, gloves and a gas mask. He is shown with his ice-hockey stick, lining up a shot to return the tear-gas to its rightful owners. A wonderful picture.

Rgds,
David

[LilBunnyRabbit]

I know that there's a laser they've developed which heats about a square inch of whatever surface it hits (to a depth of less than a millimetre) to the point where it dissolves into a plasma. The sudden expansion is enough to knock a human off their feet. They're thinking of using it to replace high-pressure water hoses as there's less risk of internal injury, and it looks more impressive.

[Sub zero]

Originally posted by LilBunnyRabbit
I know that there's a laser they've developed which heats about a square inch of whatever surface it hits (to a depth of less than a millimetre) to the point where it dissolves into a plasma. The sudden expansion is enough to knock a human off their feet. They're thinking of using it to replace high-pressure water hoses as there's less risk of internal injury, and it looks more impressive.

I read that there was one laserwhich converted it into plasma then the other "egnited" the plasma.Don't know. BUt teh gap between teh two beams was obvisouly incredibly small.

[nzric]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2001/010302-npr.htm

David - Good point about sterility and mobile phones... I'm working on an idea based in a big-brother police state, so the illegal part doesn't count, as long as it works!

I've been a bit of an activist in my past as well. I was recently in Geneva (managed to work in the UN for four days) at the same time as the G8 riots. I was right in the thick of it, taking photos, but decided to get out once the police charges and teargas started. Still, I've got some good shots.

[Syd]

NZric,

We might have more in common than previously thought. I filmed a documentary and was part of the Sydney S11 Coalition which travelled to Melbournes Crown Casino to protest the W.E.F World Economic Forum in 2000. I marched with the CFMEU on the first day and have killer footage of the WEF Buses (Filled with the worlds rich) trying to find ways into the Casino that were constantly cut off by protesters.

Along the way I interviewed Bob Brown at Parliament House in Canberra and shot (Got him on the day at ground zero too) and marched on the Crown during the three days where people were trampled and run over by Police cars and horses... I too am a writer in my spare time and very much in the vein of thought as the Baudrillards and Hakim Beys of this world.

The book Fight Club by Pahlaniuk wasn't just a novel for me, but along with other such writers such as J.G Ballard, and his work "Crash", I found a deep personal connection in regards to a whole social/semiotic attitude whose entire raison d'etre was underpinned by a state of personal anomie.

The rabbit hole is deep on this one my friend... I've been a subversive for eons.

Re- Training. I haven't trained with A since we all last met up. Chrissy has caught up with us all and I'm suffering a bit of knee strain right now due to over training I believe. E-mail me your plans over Chrissy and New Years cause I'm keen to train again soon.

Best, Syd