[Japan] Pronunciation Help

[Moosey]

Hi all,

Continuing from a discussion elsewhere. I've always pronounced "kyokushin" as "kyok-shin" (sounding like "clock-ship") as to me, that seems to follow the general rules of reading romanised Japanese words. However a couple of people have suggested that that isn't the pronunciation and pointed out that Steve Arneil (who, after all, should know) pronouces it differently. I realise that kyokushin isn't a katakana word so may not have been romanised in a strict manner.

So.. do any Japanese speakers know the correct pronunciation?

[Baichi]

Seems like you are pronouncing it incorrectly. You are most often going to have a vowel sound following every consonant sound, so you are probably dropping something that is merely reduced when native speakers say it quickly.

I guess the bigger issue is not pronunciation, but stress that is making your utterance sound 'off.' A native speaker of English is going to want to stress the syllable second from the front of the word, but a native speaker of Japanese will generally stress all syllables equally (which sounds to a native English speaker as if the first syllable has been stressed).

Without actually hearing you, that's a best guess.

[Moosey]

I see what you mean about the vowel-consonant pairings but "u" is usually a very light sound apart from in certain circumstances isn't it? e.g. "desu" is spoken closer to "des" than "de-soo" and "kyoku" (which I think can mean "memory"?) would be closer to "kyok" than "kyou - koo".

So, in terms of the phonetic spelling / katakana, rather than kyokushin being "kai - you - kuu - shi - n" it would be "kyo - ku - shi - n" wouldn't it?

[Fish Of Doom]

I see what you mean about the vowel-consonant pairings but "u" is usually a very light sound apart from in certain circumstances isn't it? e.g. "desu" is spoken closer to "des" than "de-soo" and "kyoku" (which I think can mean "memory"?) would be closer to "kyok" than "kyou - koo".

So, in terms of the phonetic spelling / katakana, rather than kyokushin being "kai - you - kuu - shi - n" it would be "kyo - ku - shi - n" wouldn't it?

that's because the "oo" sound is more or less unique to english, AFAIK. the japanese u is more like the u in spanish, or a softer version of the german u. soft vowels and short sounds do not mean muted letters, they're just subdued or very fast(both actually in this case)

[Moosey]

OK, I tried to find a good clip of someone speaking japanese to back up my point and I came up with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dHfFc8mPwE

Go to 1:20 and check out how the singer sings "Shin kyokushin"

[Sandus]

For words with -kus- in them, the U is only shortened if the S is part of an S sound, (like gakusei, which is pronounced gahk-say). In the case of Kyokushin, it's a "sh" sound, and therefore the sound is an "oo."

The "oo" sound is also dropped when the U follows an S, and only in specific cases. For instance, the word suteki (meaning pretty) would be pronounced like "steki." However, the name Suzuki would be "soo-zoo-kee." It's rather confusing, I know.

As a general rule, works that end in -suke have "skay" on the end. Verb forms that end in -su (like desu, arimasu) end in an "S" sound ("dess, arimahss"). Words that end in -tsu ALWAYS have a long U (kutsu, mitsu).

Hope that helps.

EDIT: Also keep in mind that different regions of Japan will speak in different accents, meaning words will not always retain their pronunciation depending on where you go.

[Mr Punch]

I'm a relatively fluent speaker of Standard Japanese (or 'hyoujungo', roughly equivalent to RP in the UK or Standard Midwestern/General American in the US - spoken throughout the Kanto region including in order of a quarter of Japan's population and beyond).

First, I didn't really want to butt in to Saz's lovely lovely article but the 'Kai-ko' part is most definitely WRONG in EVERY part of Japan, not only among speakers of hyoujungo. Pronouncing it like that would not even get you close to being understood in Japanese. The 'ky' in English transliteration is NEVER 'kai'. OK, let's give you some idea of an equivalent in English:

Try pronouncing the word 'God' as 'guide' in a few sentences throughout the day... 'happy' as 'herpes', etc!!! Bit bloody silly! That's some idea of how wrong it is. Words have a pronunciation for a reason.

Kyoku – the ‘ky’ is like a very short ‘key’ in English. The ‘o’ is a very short ‘o’ sound as in ‘hope’. The ‘ku’ is a very short ‘coo’.

As for the bit about pronouncing or not pronouncing ‘u’: in some cases you do and in some cases you don’t. The Japanese always say they do (the ones I’ve spoken to about this pronunciation anyway), but you just can’t really hear it! In that respect it’s like an expelling of breath with your mouth in the ‘oo’ position. Because this is difficult to grasp without hearing it and practicing it, I don’t recommend westerners do anything other than pronouncing the ‘u’ clearly as a short ‘oo’ as in ‘coo’. If you try the ‘silent’ pronunciation, especially with fricatives, flaps and traps, and any voiced consonants, you’ll sound off. I largely agree with you, Sandus, but think there are more exceptions: 'shi tsurei' (spacing not natural - just avoiding the filter) often seems to lose its 'u' and you just carefully assume the mouth position for the following 'r'. The name 'Gakuto' loses its 'u', hence the common pronunciation ala the singer who spells his name Gackt. There are many more.

Shin – this is pronounced pretty much like the English ‘shin’. In fact the ‘n’ is not so hard as in English, and you don’t have to use your tongue so firmly. This leads to the pronunciation sometimes being ‘m’, especially before a plosive (‘b’/’p’)

Kai – c’mon! You all remember the Cobra Kai, right!? ‘K-eye’ basically.

BTW, while accents and dialects vary a lot, to my knowledge no-one would pronounce 'kyoku' with a 'kai' at the start, and anyway, pretty much everyone can speak hyoujungo.