Instructor Training

[Disciple]

How long has it taken you to train to become an instructor, id est, in a specific program for instructor training. If you did not have such a prgram, how did you become one??

[Kof_Andy]

You become one by teaching, and by learning and researching none stop to improve your skill. If you don't someday your student will surpass your ability, and you will lose that student. Always stay high above whom your instructing. Make sure you teach for the love of the art, and not for ego issues, or money for that matter and open multiple MC Dojo. Accept that fact that we too are human being and we also make mistake and learn from it, if you have those qualities then your ready to teach. Most training program I been to, are worthless common sense stuff, and highly over charged. Great teacher are great at teaching because they have great master, not because they been to some training program.
Anyway to answer your question I think kukiwon got like a year instructor training program there for 4th dan above, but that was years ago last I went. You might want to double check at there site.

[Jim]

Training to be high above your student sounds a bit like an ego issue.

There's no substitute for experience with being an instructor although a course on people training can be worthwhile (if you're so inclined).

Wanna be a better instructor? Keep learning, keep an open mind, be on time, forgiving and have lots of money to keep it running.

[Kof_Andy]

Thats not how most asian see it Jim, why shouldnt you be training high above your students? Training to keep ability above your student is not for showing up, but to keep quality teaching. Your students started with a blank piece of paper to copy from you, if they surpass you is quiet sad. Now I'm not saying theres nothing we can learn from our students, but inorder to keep the class running with discipline and respect you must be wiser/physcially/mentally stronger. Weak teaching only allows corruption, it leads to nothing but losing there respect for the teacher in the end. You have to keep the superoity always as a teacher. No one wants to learn from someone thats inferior, or just a little better, if thats the case then it is not teaching, it is showing.

[Disciple]

Does any have different levels of instructor. Such as, Training INstructor, Instructor, Master INstructor, et c. ?? Meaning you achieve levels of qualified iteaching from your master?

[Jim]

Interesting, Andy. I'm not sure how you mean because I've never learnt from an Asian instructor before. Keeping 'aloof' from your students I disagree with, also keeping your students down to a managable level I disagree with too.

Yes, you should keep striving. But why can't your students come with you to these 'closed door' sessions? Are the instructors afraid that they'll look too vulnerable or too human to their students?

I wouldn't say I'm a weak instructor. I've been called the opposite quite a few times in fact, but being approachable is one of the best qualities - and one I'd advocate as defining - to have as an instructor.

I think you mean along the lines of being able to say 'Sei-za' (or whatever your system equivent is) and expect everyone to stop and go to ground. If that's the case then yes, I agree with that and expect it in every class.

[Kof_Andy]

Each of there own I suppose. Asian tend to teach very different from europeans etc. I mean if my student can surpass me than good for them, but technically I dont see how it is possible for a student to excell over there teacher. Well Physcially maybe when the teacher is getting old, but not knowledge wise at least. If the student do get better then the teacher, then it is the instructors fault for not training hard enough. Were suppose to be professional martial artist training everydays putting countless hours. I'm just using common logic here. The most terrifying thing for a student is when the day there is nothing more to learn from your master, and thats one of the reason I said what I said. I never wanted to be like that for my students.

[Jim]

Oh, I don't mean that there'll be a day like that. Just that if I don't have all the answers I have no problem in finding out for them or sending them elsewhere. In fact I actively encourage (and insist at times) that a student trains with another instructor in our system before I advance them to Sho Dan.

[Kof_Andy]

Well yeah no one have all the answers, I too do the same. I often send my senior student to cross train in different style dojo, to pick up different stuff, but I only send them to people I know who are extremly experience in what they do. Other wise there own choice of cross training will require my permission.

[Thomas]

Originally posted by Disciple
How long has it taken you to train to become an instructor, id est, in a specific program for instructor training. If you did not have such a prgram, how did you become one??

For me personally, it has been more of an "internship" type of training. Here's what we usually do in our school (but this is very general, we also base some of this on individual ability, motivation, and performance):

(Note: we go white, yellow, yellow 1 and 2 tips, green, green w/ 1 and 2 tips, blue, blue with 1 and 2 tips, red, red with 1 and 2 tips, black (1st dan - whatever dan))

(1) Usually around blue belt, students are asked to help out sometimes, from holding boards for breaks, to being test dummies (for throws and such), to supervising forms and basic techniques (under direct black belt supervision).

(2) At red, students are given more responsibilities, including conducting occasional warmups and supervising and instructing basic level teaching. At both red and blue level, after each time they 'teach', one or more of the instructors have an after-action discussion and give feedback, negative and positive. Usually at red level, we recommend keping a notebook for ideas for warmups, small classes, drills, etc.

(3) 1st dan black belts are treated as 'assistant instructors' and may conduct sections of the class or teach small groups new forms, basic techniques, or run drills. They are supervised directly and get lots of feedback. At testing, they may run the floor (put everyone in position and manage the what the master asks for on the floor) or may siut on the test, usually as a non-recommending member.

(4) Beyond 1st dan, it really depends on how the student progresses and how much the master is confident in their abilities. For me, at 2nd dan, I was appointed 'instructor' and given charge of occassional classes and teaching of some new techniques and such. In the abscence of the master, I was in charge of training. Also, I was on the testing board and could recommend for promotion (pending tha master's approval, of course).

(5) Now at 3rd dan, the master is happy with my teaching and has appointed me 'senior instructor'. I still follow what the master wants to work on (he gives a general plan for teaching) but in his absence, I do what I choose.

Keep in mind that our school is small and the master is a 4th dan. We two senior instructors are 3rd dans and we have a solid handful of 1st and 2nd dans to help out. In a larger system, there may be a more specific setup. Also, in the cases of myself and the other instructor, the master has been pleased with our development. I have an education background and several years of intensive training and teaching behind me. The othe instructor is very simlar in background as well.

[bcullen]

I' m doing my instructor training currently. My school has a great program for OJT. They walk you through everything from marketing, teaching group and private lessons, accounting/paper work, selecting a location. Great support network too.

They have a special program for those that are considering being an instructor. (Everyone is considered "in training" including the instructors. All the way up to the top instructor)

We were given the base formula for the warm up exercises and told to create one of our own to discuss at tbe next session. After we went through and disected the warm ups one by one and talked about what was or wasn't right and why we were called on to get up and run the other instructors and instructor trainnee's through the work out we created. Gave me a whole new respect for the instructors. Running the lesson is harder then it looks.

[Thokk]

Originally posted by Kof_Andy
Your students started with a blank piece of paper to copy from you, if they surpass you is quiet sad.

poor is the student who never surpasses his master and poor is the master who's student never surpasses him!

[Thokk]

Im actually going to start training to become an instructor pretty soon, hopefully officially towards this summer. Im not sure exactly how the ranks work among the instructor, but i do know that it takes upwards of 20 years to become a sifu in my style. I also know however that you don't become an instructer just by achieving a high sash level, you have to show many other qualities that are not tested for the sash

[KenpoDavid]

I have just agreed to take on the Instructor's Training program at my school. I will still attend my regular class as a student, but will also assist the instructor at a kids and at another adult class each week. I am only 6th kyu but when I reach first Dan I will also be recognized as an Instructor.

My only regret at this time (of course I haven't started yet) is that the Instructor uniform has white pants and black top and I really wanted to wear an all-black gi after my next promotion LOL

I hope one day to open my own school, hopefully somewhere it is warm. I am dreaming now of Key West Florida but who knows if in 10-15 years that will be realistic :)


my school alo offers franchise agreements to ths who complete the I.T. program. Looks like a great way to jump-start a school (signage, name recognition, internet, training materials, etc) but the agreement may be very restrictive so I will have my lawyer look at that ;) I figure at elast 2.5 more years before I am ready...

KD

[Din]

here if you want to be an official instructor ( recognized by the organization) then you have to attend and pass a few required courses.
otherwise its like what thomas mentioned ... its more of an internship and how much responsibility you get depends on your master.
i'm an instructor now.. started helping out my master when i was 1st dan and now in his absence i'm in charge of some of the classes.
here a master instructor is one who is either 5-7 dan or 6-7 dan and grandmaster for 8-10 dan. my master just got his 7th dan last year.

[creamcheese]

[creamcheese]

Thats not how most asian see it Jim, why shouldnt you be <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=training&v=55">training</a> high above your students? <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=Training&v=55">Training</a> to keep ability above your student is not for showing up, but to keep quality teaching. Your students started with a blank piece of paper to copy from you, if they surpass you is quiet sad. Now I'm not saying theres nothing we can learn from our students, but inorder to keep the class running with discipline and respect you must be wiser/physcially/mentally stronger. Weak teaching only allows corruption, it leads to nothing but losing there respect for the teacher in the end. You have to keep the superoity always as a teacher. No one wants to learn from someone thats inferior, or just a little better, if thats the case then it is not teaching, it is showing.

[creamcheese]

I have only been teaching Kung Fu for a short time but I know one thing, a good teacher learns from his students. Do not seek out respect for it will blind you. Teach to learn and Learn in order to teach. I teach so my students will surely become great Kung Fu Warriors and I certainly hope that one day they will surpass me because to see those fruits will be a great day for rejoicing. Love your students, appreciate their endeavours in training and be a good example for them. You can only show them the way by teaching, the rest is up to them (what they put in to it) maybe a student will leave the training class, go home and train for another 6 hours, every day. The teacher may have done the same but trained for 3 hours every day, SO WHAT. Is it really important? I don't think so. I have only ever learned one Martial Art (Chinese) so have little understanding of other styles but every student understands his learning in a different way and like good wine a students learning and understanding in training, matures in different ways also. My father was a Doctor, I became a Professor - but my father taught me to walk in the Way and for that he has all my respect and love.

[Colin Linz]

This is a good thread; it’s good to see people thinking about the nuts and bolts of teaching rather than be concerned about how good their martial art abilities are.

There are many incredible skilled martial artists that can’t teach. It does take a lot of effort to develop good instructional skills. In Australia there has been some changes over the last couple of years where the Federal Government has appointed an industry governing body to bring some form of regulation to the industry. In many states now it is illegal to teach a martial art in any Government building, School, Councill Hall or PCYC unless you have completed an accredited coaching course.

Many people are resisting this legislation because they believe that some outside organization can’t determine their skill at teaching their art. This of course is not what the legislation is aimed at. When it comes to qualifications regarding your experience to instruct the art concerned they use your governing bodies guidance. What they are really after is to educate and develop peoples skills of instruction. This is an area where many teachers can gain enormous benefit, and in so doing improve their individual club and gain more students. Areas that usually need development are; communication techniques, motivational techniques, physiology, phycology, first aid and a knowledge of drug use in sport. I’ll just drop in a small fact here; in face-to-face communication about 70% of the process is non-verbal. This means that no matter what you say if your body language or actions don’t re-enforce what your mouth says then you have lost any hope of delivering the intended message.

When it comes to style of teaching it is probably best to teach in a way that suits your individualism. I would recommend developing some code of conduct and a statement of ethics so students know what they can expect from you, and what you expect from them. I would also recommend maintaining a friendly and open feeling with your students, do not do the I’m the master and your nothing so don’t speak or look at me unless you have my permission type of crap that you sometimes hear of; and from my experience is not the way things are done in Japan (I can’t say about other Asian countries, I haven’t trained there). This type of behaviour is not constructive for your students and re-enforces negative attitudes to martial arts. Don’t get caught up in your own ego, your role is to develop your students, if they become technically better than you so what, this means you have done a good job. Time is always marching on, the reality is that your technical abilities will diminish as you become older, this doesn’t mean much as it is expected. You will be judged on your students.

Aside from the teaching aspects I would also recommend some type of business training. Learn a bit about business plans, accounting, law and marketing. It doesn’t matter if your non commercial or a McDojo your club will benefit from it.

[creamcheese]

Colin Lintz, You're so right about business studies, etc, it can really help a lot. To be an instructor is a very responsible position. It's time consuming keeping records of payments, making receipts, attendance sheets, working out class schedules, timetables, students progress reports and the various notifications for holidays and the preparation of extra club outdoor activities. It is also difficult taking the class together and at the same time checking and correcting the students individually. As ours is a serious 4-5 year training program taking students from beginners to advanced, there are also yearly tests involved and making out the certifications and more which all takes time and patience. It's not a question of getting a training hall and teaching whoever turns up, it takes careful planning if it is to succeed and be considered serious by the public and parents of kids. All instructors and students have to be insured and instructors must know emergency first aid and take any necessary coaching courses. Instructrors should always be seeking for improvement to improve their students and standards of their schools. It's really a complete involvement and should not be taken lightly. Hope I'll be successful...........but only time will tell.

[Thomas]

Colin Linz: I really liked your entire posts and the suggestions it holds, espceially the 'professionalization' of school owners. The only part I take issue with is...




Many people are resisting this legislation because they believe that some outside organization can’t determine their skill at teaching their art. This of course is not what the legislation is aimed at. When it comes to qualifications regarding your experience to instruct the art concerned they use your governing bodies guidance. What they are really after is to educate and develop peoples skills of instruction. This is an area where many teachers can gain enormous benefit, and in so doing improve their individual club and gain more students. Areas that usually need development are; communication techniques, motivational techniques, physiology, phycology, first aid and a knowledge of drug use in sport. I’ll just drop in a small fact here; in face-to-face communication about 70% of the process is non-verbal. This means that no matter what you say if your body language or actions don’t re-enforce what your mouth says then you have lost any hope of delivering the intended message.


I like the idea of instructor certification but really don't want the state (New York in my case) to be in charge of it. New York is trying to set up a certification system much like their teacher certification system which will have lots of requirements and a renewable membership cost. My main problem is that I do not trust the state to regulate it... as a NY certified public school teacher, I have seen the preponderance of (unneccessary) requirements and the high cost of certification drive away many gifted teachers. The state has no idea how to regulate it... will it be by style, by age, or what?

If the states want regulation of instrucotrs, my recommendation would be to license associations/federations to certify their instructors and thust them, rather than having individual states trying to make requirements and licensing schemes.

[Colin Linz]

Thomas,

I know where you’re coming from, committees can be a pain to deal with. The way the Federal Government in Australia decided to handle it was to appoint an industry body, as the government agencies lacked confidence to handle the diversity of martial arts.

As with any legislation and controlling body there are going to be negatives, I believe the positives in our case out way the negatives. Broader recognition of skills and qualifications, and a controlling body mean safety for students (physically and ethically) this lifts the profile of the activity, helping it to grow. Cheaper insurance costs, due to collective bargaining and reduced risks because of training and agreed safety standards. Instructors have the chance to develop their skills and abilities to teach, and thereby build a stronger school.

I believe that the best strategy is one of involvement early on so that you can somehow influence the development of the governing body.

[Thomas]

Again, a really well-put post and one I agree pretty much 100% with... and this quote here is great advice:


I believe that the best strategy is one of involvement early on so that you can somehow influence the development of the governing body.

Currently, John Pelligrini's ICHF (and ITA) is basically doing this. Because we assume New York will try some sort of certification, the ICHF has (or is) implementing an instructor certification program which we hope will fit the requirements of the state. If not, at least we should be closer than before. I hope that other organizations will start thinking about this so that if our local area (state, province, country, etc.) does require certification, we can present them with what the requirements should be and not vice versa.

(Looking forward to reading more of your posts!)

[Colin Linz]

Thomas,

My posts all go down hill from here. Once the governments believe they need something resistance is usually futile. Fighting them head on becomes costly, both financially and personally. Sometimes in a fight you need to blend with you opponent and redirect their energy, rather than trying to stop it. Hows that for a budo analogy!

[Jim]

Hey Colin,

I've read your threads regarding governmental control and I even registered myself back in the late 80's and early 90's when the MACB were in force, but the government let it all fall away when it became apparent that it was going to be political (in MA circles) rather than be a controlling body per se. The mandate changed to focus on full contact sparring and away from MA's in general.

Take this as an example: I was only allowed to have a JJ license rather than a Judo and JJ because of the politics with the board in charge of Judo. My instructor (at the time) was only allowed a Judo because a member on the JJ board had political issues with him.

It turned farsical then and I guess that it'll turn farsical this time. I keep away from teaching at government buildings, they're too dear anyway, and keep to sporting clubs and halls.

They want to regulate until they find out what a can of worms it is and then someone comes to their senses and leaves it to us. What's it for anyway? To make it so that people can safely go and learn a style from a qualified instructor? Who decides who's qualified? You'll get people with licenses regardless of what the criteria and you'll even get people who say they're licensed when they're not. I can't see a benefit either way.

How does it go? 'The more the emporer tightens his grip, the more systems will continue to slip through his fingers...'

[Colin Linz]

From my perspective I see it as a good thing as long as they don’t become involved with the technical aspect of what I teach.

My only criticism is the expense; for me the annual membership fee is too much. Shorinji Kempo is a not for profit activity, we are not allowed to make money by teaching it. I can claim back money that I have used for club expenses, but then I need to make the fees high enough to cover this. I am trying to develop Shorinji Kempo into an area that I think will benefit by its teachings, but it is an area where many people are struggling and I want to keep training affordable for them.

My support for a governing body stems from my observations and personal experiences of the many dodgy martial art schools operating. Many of them have little in the way of experience in martial arts or training people, some of them are just after a quick buck and will act without ethics or concern for their students. This type of school has had a large impact on community impressions of Martial Arts. If we are to engage with the general public we need their respect, by cleaning up our industry this can happen.

The danger is how the governing body interoperates its charter. I think that the MAIA has been fairly unbiased towards styes and is focused on developing industry standards in ethical behaviour and coaching abilities. From a business side they have made it possible to get affordable insurance, this has been a major achievement given the insurance crisis we are having in Australia.

I think that you will find that all government halls (federal, state, and local) are also with the legislation. I think the only way out is private training centres. Personally I like the PCYC, they are keen to have you and will really help you if they see that you are sincere, and you and your students are covered by their insurance

[Griff]

How long has it taken you to train to become an instructor, id est, in a specific program for instructor training. If you did not have such a prgram, how did you become one??
To become an instructor will vary depending on how many techniques in the syllabus and how quickly one can pick them up and improve their skill level to a senior grade. Then when you know the syllabus understanding communication, motivation and students is important. If you abouit middle grades undertake a teaching program so you learn to teach professionally it will ensure you do the right thing.
Essentially you will find two types of students NAC's (need to acheive) these do everything and even when they fail they will say "at least I tried" then you get NAF's (Need to avoid failure) if the lose their autonomy or fail they dont come anymore or wont do anything if they do train.
Time frame to become an instructor is dependant on style and qualifications but ranges from 2 years to 4 years.
Hope this helps
Griff

[tswolfman]

Put your Heart into Your training and you will find that you will get to a point were it is only natural to pass on what you have learned at this point it is time for you to start teaching ( I.E. Become an Instructor).

[tommy]

Thats not how most asian see it Jim, why shouldnt you be training high above your students? Training to keep ability above your student is not for showing up, but to keep quality teaching. Your students started with a blank piece of paper to copy from you, if they surpass you is quiet sad. Now I'm not saying theres nothing we can learn from our students, but inorder to keep the class running with discipline and respect you must be wiser/physcially/mentally stronger. Weak teaching only allows corruption, it leads to nothing but losing there respect for the teacher in the end. You have to keep the superoity always as a teacher. No one wants to learn from someone thats inferior, or just a little better, if thats the case then it is not teaching, it is showing.

Are you suggesting that you (or a teacher) should never have a student that surpasses them? I would think that is the ultimate goal as a teacher...? I am always pleased when I see a student with a more natural kick or punch or potential than me....I am not talking about a white belt here but advanced students...

[Scotty Dog]

Just to let you know tommy, Andy Kof hasn't been active on this site since Aug

[Pat OMalley]

My job as an instructor is to teach my students to the best of my ability and as they are ready, teach them the next stage of learning, my job is to make them as good, if not better than me. For if I always make sure I am above my students, then they too will adopt this mentality, 2 or 3 generations down the line we end up with a watered down version of what I was orginally teaching instead of a system that always strives for improvement.

We are at the end of the day just caretakers of the art, once our time comes someone else has to take care of it or it dies.

As for how long it takes, well if you are at a McDojo that would depend on how much money you are willing to spend, on average it will take a minimum of 3 years hard training but many take longer, at the end of the day this is something you cant put a timescale on as it all depends on the individual.

And if instructor is your only goal in the Martial Arts, chances are you will never get there.

Regards

Pat

[Thomas]

Great post, Pat!!!!

[Pete Ticali]

Thanks Guys
Good Reading here!

Pat you had a hidden treasure buried in your last remark. "and when they are ready" etc. etc.
Most students and many MacDojo's ( well put) don't understand this concept. Everyone takes new knowledge and thinks its equals seasoned experience. Modern Education seems to be based on memorizing facts to pass tests, and rarely do students "understand" the theories and principles "behind" their movement.

I think most good martial arts has to be taught in layers. You must revisit and revise the foundation over and over, adding depth and intuitive dimension each time. Its not something that works for many commercial enterprises.

Your comments about being ahead of the students is a very healthy comment, but if I may, I'd like to add an addition that I feel confident you would agree with. Being "ahead" of the student is a moving target, based solely on the level of the student. As instructors, we need to step down a peg or two (if necessary) to stay at a teaching level that is within reach of every student. Otherwise we ruin their expectations of success by seeming out of their reach.

I feel a good class is where I can take everyone up to that imaginary line, where they think it's their max. Then I want to get them to cross it, before I safley take them home. Personal accomplishment is a heavy Opiate. Not only do they get empowered, but they develop the confidence that will help get them through life.

Again, Thanks all for some excellant posts

Pete Ticali

[Thomas]

Your comments about being ahead of the students is a very healthy comment, but if I may, I'd like to add an addition that I feel confident you would agree with. Being "ahead" of the student is a moving target, based solely on the level of the student. As instructors, we need to step down a peg or two (if necessary) to stay at a teaching level that is within reach of every student. Otherwise we ruin their expectations of success by seeming out of their reach.

Great post as well... I like the bit I quoted above. Instructors do need to check their ego at the door as well and function only at the level they need to for the students and turn it up or down depending on what the objectives are... not ego-based. Nice

[Gyaku]

Thomas & Pete Ticali, some fine points. I think the mark of agood instructor is the on ethat gets past the 'invincible at all costs stage'. I'm talking here of the instructor who will always ensure that their students can never land a punch etc on them. Personally, I think sometimes you've got to 'lower' your skill sometimes when sparring as a teacher to give your student a bit of confidence. Just getting whitewashed on the mat everytime, does the student's confidence no good - unless an ego needs a bit of deflating!

[Pete Ticali]

I imagine different answers might be possible,.... but

The titles of Sensei (teacher) is usually recognised to be possible/probable with your sandan rank ( 3rd degree black). This was assumed when standard training time might be expected to be 4 yrs for Shodan, 2yr Nidan, 3 years sandan.

Since there is now a great difference in training time accross various systems, I have changed "my" rule on this subject. Even though, my training requirements have not changed, I felt it necessary to ensure that "Sensei" when given, was understood correctly.

My requirements are as follows: Ten years active training, with at least 5 of them at blackbelt rank and actively assisting in instruction.

It should be noted that in 2005, I believe that "outside" of our Art, there are things that instructors should become competent in. These include safety/first aid, Child development basics, and proper understanding of legal and business issues of accepting the responsibility for other persons "care" while in your program.

If one is sincere in their wish to learn my art, it only requires hard work and decication. If one wishes to pass my art on, they must understand it takes more.

Pete Ticali

[Pat OMalley]

Thanks Guys
Good Reading here!

Pat you had a hidden treasure buried in your last remark. "and when they are ready" etc. etc.
Most students and many MacDojo's ( well put) don't understand this concept. Everyone takes new knowledge and thinks its equals seasoned experience. Modern Education seems to be based on memorizing facts to pass tests, and rarely do students "understand" the theories and principles "behind" their movement.

I think most good martial arts has to be taught in layers. You must revisit and revise the foundation over and over, adding depth and intuitive dimension each time. Its not something that works for many commercial enterprises.

Your comments about being ahead of the students is a very healthy comment, but if I may, I'd like to add an addition that I feel confident you would agree with. Being "ahead" of the student is a moving target, based solely on the level of the student. As instructors, we need to step down a peg or two (if necessary) to stay at a teaching level that is within reach of every student. Otherwise we ruin their expectations of success by seeming out of their reach.

I feel a good class is where I can take everyone up to that imaginary line, where they think it's their max. Then I want to get them to cross it, before I safley take them home. Personal accomplishment is a heavy Opiate. Not only do they get empowered, but they develop the confidence that will help get them through life.

Again, Thanks all for some excellant posts

Pete TicaliJoin our two comments together and show it to the students and hey, they may realise that once upon a time we too were beginers, it's just that it is our turn to become caretakers, soon it will belong to them to look after. Nice addition Pete.

regards

Pat

[tellner]

You become one by teaching, and by learning and researching none stop to improve your skill. If you don't someday your student will surpass your ability, and you will lose that student. Always stay high above whom your instructing. Make sure you teach for the love of the art, and not for ego issues, or money for that matter and open multiple MC Dojo.

Well now, it's easy to see where that leads after five or six generations. Whatever survives will be complet Rubbish because each teacher will be worse than the one before. Many styles and systems have died out because of such attitudes. It also flies in the face of your "not for ego issues" words. If you do what you do to keep your students inferior to you rather than giving them the absolute best training that you can it is nothing but ego at work.

If you've done your job good students will eventually surpass you. Sometimes the next step is to pass them on to a teacher who can handle them at their new level. Sometimes they become training partners and colleagues instead of your students. Sometimes they take what they've learned from you and branch out in a different direction. All of these are good things.

[Pete Ticali]

weeks ago in the forum (not this thread) I came across the comment or subject that led me to remark about immortality.

My comment might hold some viability for at least some here. I really do believe I can become capable of immortality. For the record, I'm not speaking of a religious viewpoint, I'm speaking in a very humanly way. To me, Immortality is not as difficult as you might think. If I can make a difference in someones life to the extent that they will "remember" me, I'm half way there. If I can make a big enough difference to them that they will wish to pass on what I've given them, then I am truly immortal.

Is this not what our fondest desire is with our children and their children? And... getting back to this idea that I must always be "above" my students.... Do I wish to stay above my children? I sincerely think not! It is one of my primary mandates to help my children (in and out of the dojo) become better than me.

I wonder if you can understand that by making them "better" than me, I practically guarantee not only my imortality, but the possibility to stay as the best. Hmm?, does this guy have a clue what he's talking about? How can they be better, while he remains best? LIfe my friends is a moving target. Long after your conquests and trophies are gone you will be accurately rated by the quality of those who carry on your work. Ask any father or mother if I'm wrong. I doubt you'll get many who don't derive their greatest honor through those whom they "accept" responsibility for.

In my opinion, you waste valuable time trying to stay "above" your students. Spend your time trying to give them the best you can. It's my private joke, because you'll be constantly trying to improve yourself for that purpose, you'll just be doing it for a "better" purpose.

my .02

Pete Ticali

[Griff]

Like many issues this is complex.
Essentially the student is responsible for how good they are, instructors show the way. How instructors do this is varies from instructor to instructor, there is no wrong way or right way to show the way. The way instructors make decisions for their students training shows how committed they are, if they nake descisions and consider the effects on a student and not just how it effects their pocket.
As many variable are existant in instructors as their are students, not every instructor will benefit every student and vica versa.
Like there are no wrong techniques because evry technique will work in exactly the right situation, instructors are similar. One mans gift is another mans poison.
Students have the freedom to choose, students want to know how good they will be next year not how good their instructor will be.
Students & instructors can be good indifferent ways, knowledge, speed, timing, attitude, spirit, specific techniques.
Having read the various threads I think their are some good and varied points, the only people it matters to are in our own schools. Knowing Pete Ticali and Pat O'malley I know they have valuable contributions in martial arts and in addition to this their own specific martial art. Knowing they are very successful I know there getting it write and share their wealth of knowledge to the benefit of others

Thanks