Studying Silat in non-Malay land

[Taker]

Hi everyone,

Silat is the term used for martial arts originating from the Malay Archipelago, mainly Indonesia, Malaysia, southern Thailand, Brunei and Singapore. I was born and live in Malaysia, so everywhere I go, there's silat school and the art of silat is still the favourable choice of self defence than foreign martial arts.

But now it's been known that many Silat styles has flourished in faraway land, as far as the UK and USA. I'm very proud of it, even tough my style wasn't one of those styles. I haven't actually visit any silat classes in any other countries except my own, so I just want anyone studying this art outside the Malay Archipelago to share thier experience.

1. Have you ever met the guru from the Malay Archipelago him/herself before/after studying the Silat style? (Or maybe the gurus themselves travel to your place to teach?) Or you didn't even know there's a Silat guru for your style?

2. Did the Silat class in your country also teaches the Adat and Adab of the Malays? Or did it only teach the blocks and punches without any Malay manners insights? If so, that's where the comments on "I'm going to go BSing" comes.

3. Does being far from the Malay Archipelago meant that the Silat had been changed or modified to suit the culture in your country? Does it stil preseve the actual technique that was created eons ago by the Malay warriors of old?

I hope to get your views on this topic. Just want to see how's the art live and bloom in your place. Thanks.

[Pekir]

Hi Taker,

in response to:

1. No we never met an Indonesian teacher for our fighting art because we don't even know if there is still a Indonesian guru alive for our art. Our first teacher in the Netherlands was probably the single surviving teacher of our very small and modest fighting art. It is one of my future goals to search for Indonesian arts that have great resemblance with ours.

In the Netherlands there happen to be quite some styles that have emerged since the1950 and 60-ies with the repatriation of the dutch-indo's to the Netherlands. Some of the early guru's have created their own campur style, others were able to offer one of the main styles and have maintained contacts with the representatives in the native country. Some were taught an art without any historic reference to the more well-known arts. The latter could very well be local expressions (like ours)

2. In regard to Adat I think most Ducth-Indo expressions carry a great deal of malay adat but influenced by the Dutch-Indo, Dutch and European cultural aspects.

3. This is probably not the same for all the perguruan and styles in the Netherlands. It will depend on the individual guru.... I think that worldwide the expression of silat is changing depending on the knowledge of the guru but also because of the influence of Persilat rules on Olah Raga. If students are focusing on Olah Raga their focus on bela diri might (at least temporarily) be subdued????

regards, Pekir

[pesilat]

Hi everyone,

Silat is the term used for martial arts originating from the Malay Archipelago, mainly Indonesia, Malaysia, southern Thailand, Brunei and Singapore. I was born and live in Malaysia, so everywhere I go, there's silat school and the art of silat is still the favourable choice of self defence than foreign martial arts.

But now it's been known that many Silat styles has flourished in faraway land, as far as the UK and USA. I'm very proud of it, even tough my style wasn't one of those styles. I haven't actually visit any silat classes in any other countries except my own, so I just want anyone studying this art outside the Malay Archipelago to share thier experience.

1. Have you ever met the guru from the Malay Archipelago him/herself before/after studying the Silat style? (Or maybe the gurus themselves travel to your place to teach?) Or you didn't even know there's a Silat guru for your style?

Yes. My instructor spent years training with Pak Herman Suwanda (from Bandung, Indonesia) and has traveled to and trained in Indonesia. I also trained with Pak Herman at many seminars before he died. My instructor also spent many years training with members of the de Thoaurs family and I trained with Willem de Thouars for 8 years myself. I'm not sure if the de Thoaurs qualify fully by your definition of being "from the Malay Archipelago" since - depending on which specific one you're talking about - they only spent their childhood and, in a couple of cases, teen years there.


2. Did the Silat class in your country also teaches the Adat and Adab of the Malays? Or did it only teach the blocks and punches without any Malay manners insights? If so, that's where the comments on "I'm going to go BSing" comes.


It's not usually taught formally that I've seen but all of the Silat instructors I've trained with do address it to some extent or another.


3. Does being far from the Malay Archipelago meant that the Silat had been changed or modified to suit the culture in your country? Does it stil preseve the actual technique that was created eons ago by the Malay warriors of old?


That's pretty hard to answer. As my old Karate instructor once said, "Do you know what Karate is? No. From your perspective, Karate is what I teach you that it is. But what if I'm wrong? What if I'm making stuff up or was taught poorly or incorrectly myself? If you only train with me, then you have no way of knowing one way or the other. So when you meet other people at tournaments or you see video or read articles about Karate, keep your mind open. Even if I'm being completely honest with you, I may have been misinformed or I may have misunderstood something along the way."

With that in mind, all I can say about the Silat I've trained in and been exposed to is this: The Silat I've been taught jibes with what I've seen from other sources. And, more importantly for me, it has worked for me in various hairy situations - a couple of which were life threatening.

Mike

[Rebo Paing]

That's pretty hard to answer. As my old Karate instructor once said, "Do you know what Karate is? No. From your perspective, Karate is what I teach you that it is. But what if I'm wrong? What if I'm making stuff up or was taught poorly or incorrectly myself? If you only train with me, then you have no way of knowing one way or the other. So when you meet other people at tournaments or you see video or read articles about Karate, keep your mind open. Even if I'm being completely honest with you, I may have been misinformed or I may have misunderstood something along the way."

With that in mind, all I can say about the Silat I've trained in and been exposed to is this: The Silat I've been taught jibes with what I've seen from other sources. And, more importantly for me, it has worked for me in various hairy situations - a couple of which were life threatening.

Mike

Good answer Mike.

Bang Taker, I think local culture will always become part of the silat ... and silat will always become part of the local culture it grows in.

Adat is the cultural way of a place ... it can be said that silat will always have adat ... just not necessarily Malay or Indonesian adat. That is OK & to be expected because not all pesilat are Malay or Indonesian :).

Salam and cheers,
Krisno

[Jebat]

Salam,

I can see from you logo that you practice Cekak.
With all respect:
There are a few things you need to know being a Malaysian.
In other Malay countries like Indonesia not everybody is a muslim,
therefore Silat is being taught traditionally for 100s of years to people from
other religions and backgrounds. In Malaysia not every Malay was
a muslim either. Most became muslim just before and after Merdeka.
Now people are claiming that all Malays in Malaysia have always
been muslim and only taught their silat to muslims. This is not true.
But Malaysia is trying to rewrite history and becoming very rasist
and seperatist recently.
Do people in other countries learn Adat and Adab? Yes, however....
Malaysian Adat and Adab is different from Indonesian Adat and Adab.
The Netherlands has more silat styles than Malaysia and also has
different Adat and Adab. Malaysia is now claiming to have the perfect
Malay culture which is not true. Malaysian Malay culture has lost most of its
Malay ways like you can still find in Indonesia. Malaysian Malay culture is
now very modern mixed with Arab infuences. Most of the old Malay
ways are now seen as Haram and bad by the Malaysian Malays.
But I know you are being told otherwise by your teachers.
The image of the Malaysian Malay they teach you never existed.
Most people up to a few decades ago were wearing sarong and showed bare skin.
Woman and men were half naked. Also non muslims practiced
silat and taught silat. Nowadays if your not a muslim you are not allowed
to join certain silat schools. That hardly existed in the past.
In Indonesia and The Netherlands it still isn't a problem.

Another problem is that the Malaysian Muslims thinks that they are perfect,
without knowing that in other countries Muslims are totally different.
So often they meet an Arab, Ottoman or Persian tourist and have no idea
what makes the guy's clock tik. A European then tuns out to be closer to
understanding their culture (a lot of the Europeans have middle eastern blood)
than the Malaysian who thinks he is perfect. The Malaysian then doesn't know
what to say while the European then chats politely with the guy.....

Have techniques changed? Yes and no. Just like in Malaysia people keep
changing things. Your own Cekak has been invented, changed and modified
during the 60s. Borrowed techniques from older styles, but changed to
create something new. No ancient warrior techniques there.

I'm not trying to be nasty here. But the Malaysian Malays have to open
their minds and start doubting the recent stories of being superior
that are spoon fed to them now. We are all equal, nobody is better or wiser.

People who suffer most under this new Malaysian way of thinking
are the Indonesian labourers and nannies working in Malaysia.
They are bing treated like inferior beings..... Such a shame....
Also tourists are staying away after their first visit because
they feel unappreciated.

A'mu'kum,
Jebat



Hi everyone,

Silat is the term used for martial arts originating from the Malay Archipelago, mainly Indonesia, Malaysia, southern Thailand, Brunei and Singapore. I was born and live in Malaysia, so everywhere I go, there's silat school and the art of silat is still the favourable choice of self defence than foreign martial arts.

But now it's been known that many Silat styles has flourished in faraway land, as far as the UK and USA. I'm very proud of it, even tough my style wasn't one of those styles. I haven't actually visit any silat classes in any other countries except my own, so I just want anyone studying this art outside the Malay Archipelago to share thier experience.

1. Have you ever met the guru from the Malay Archipelago him/herself before/after studying the Silat style? (Or maybe the gurus themselves travel to your place to teach?) Or you didn't even know there's a Silat guru for your style?

2. Did the Silat class in your country also teaches the Adat and Adab of the Malays? Or did it only teach the blocks and punches without any Malay manners insights? If so, that's where the comments on "I'm going to go BSing" comes.

3. Does being far from the Malay Archipelago meant that the Silat had been changed or modified to suit the culture in your country? Does it stil preseve the actual technique that was created eons ago by the Malay warriors of old?

I hope to get your views on this topic. Just want to see how's the art live and bloom in your place. Thanks.

[adouglasmhor]

Good post Jebat, well thought out and reasoned, I salute you for it. Thank you.

[Gajah Silat]

Salam Jebat,

Indeed, silat seems to be portrayed as a muslim art, rather than an art mostly practiced by muslims. Silat is not 'owned' by muslims, just mainly practiced by them. Silat certainly existed in the Malay archipelago long before Islam anyway.

I can fully understand how silat is portrayed as part of the Malay identity, however perhaps the uniqueness of the Malay identity is being sacrificed to become generic muslims. Just because Islam originated in the Arab peninsula does not mean having to aspire to be more Arabic. Infact I often think Islam as practiced in the Malay world is more authentic than post Wahabist Islam. Anyway:confused:

I wasn't even asked my religion by my Indonesian teachers.........

People who suffer most under this new Malaysian way of thinking
are the Indonesian labourers and nannies working in Malaysia.
They are bing treated like inferior beings..... Such a shame....
Also tourists are staying away after their first visit because
they feel unappreciated.

Believe me Jebat, they are treated much much worse in the Middle East, especially the women who work as maids:mad:

Salam hormat

[Rebo Paing]

Good posts Jebat & Gajah Silat!

I concur wholeheartedly. Silat is an approach that can be made to suit many environments.
Adat exists in many forms in all places ... if a person is not Malay or Indonesian, why follow an alien adat just for the sake of it?
No one adat is superior to another ... we are all different human beings .. that is what makes the world interesting and makes it go round!
I think that silat follows the person as well as the person following the ways of silat.

Cheers!

[Jebat]

Salam,

Wow!
I'm very impressed!
Impressed that people here are open minded and not immediately
arguing. That is very good indeed! There is hope for us all, lol...
I wish everybody here in Malaysia would be the same.
It's quite the opposite here. Lot's of insults and shouting even
before you even criticize. One big rasist mess.......

Kind regards,
A'mu'kum,
Jebat


Good posts Jebat & Gajah Silat!

I concur wholeheartedly. Silat is an approach that can be made to suit many environments.
Adat exists in many forms in all places ... if a person is not Malay or Indonesian, why follow an alien adat just for the sake of it?
No one adat is superior to another ... we are all different human beings .. that is what makes the world interesting and makes it go round!
I think that silat follows the person as well as the person following the ways of silat.

Cheers!

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat Jebat and all,

This is an interesting conversation and I'm kind of late in giving my opinions on it (yet again).

There are some things Taker has stated that doesn't sit well with me, and i know where the sentiments come from. I've already addressed that in another post on another topic.

However, I'd like to comment on some of the statements that Jebat has made. I'd especially like to know his sources.

"In Malaysia not every Malay was a muslim either. Most became muslim just before and after Merdeka."

If you mean in terms of conversion to Islam, the majority of the citizens od Melaka, Kedah, Fatani, Kelantan, Johor and Pahang were Muslims when their kings converted. Were they Muslim in name only but non-Muslim in practise? It is possible. If this is what you mean, then there is some truth to it. However, there is no notation I know of that states that 'most' converted circa Merdeka.

"Now people are claiming that all Malays in Malaysia have always
been muslim and only taught their silat to muslims. This is not true."

The trend towards Islamisation is one that has begun a long time ago, ever since Islam came to our shores. During its tumultuous course, this process has been hijacked by people with self-interests and hidden agenda. The latest hijackers are ultra-Melayu political parties who think Malaysia is Allah's gift to them. Please don't confuse them (even if they wear silat garb) with true silat practitioners.

Melayu in Malaysia have not always been Muslim and silat has not always been taught to Muslims but they are now and have been for quite a while. Their desire to teach only Muslims is not born of separatism but of something else other.

http://silat-melayu.blogspot.com/2007/11/why-silat-doesnt-teach-non-muslims.html

"Your own Cekak has been invented, changed and modified
during the 60s. Borrowed techniques from older styles, but changed to
create something new. No ancient warrior techniques there."

Silat Cekak was founded from something far older but retains much of the ancient warrior techniques you claim don't exist there. Unfortunately, all either of us have are the words of the people we trust who have given us this information.

"People who suffer most under this new Malaysian way of thinking
are the Indonesian labourers and nannies working in Malaysia.
They are bing treated like inferior beings"

Sad, but true. Other than the above, I'm embarrassed to say that Jebat's observations often hit very close to home. However, Malaysia post March-8 has shown great strides and we may very well have something left to save.

Salam persilatan,

[Raden-Rahmat]

salam all. interesting topics i should say. 1stly on adat i was taught by 2 gurus, 1 from Melaka who remains my Head Guru, Haji Mokhtar bin Yahya and then i trained very briefly with Guru Azlan of Lok9. very different approaches to Silat but both were enlightening in every regard. I prefer not subject silat to anything but in the end everything has its end and origin so does silat. and we all know that. When the mention of adat came, i recall him saying that the adat and adab would mould character and the malays of old were deeply influenced not by islam, but by the essence of islam. Silat originally had very heathen origins and fighting styles were brutal and ruthless. Islam did not claim Silat nor did it claim the origin of it nor did it claim the ppl. Islam merely came to address the spiritual needs and address the moral nature of beings wherever they may be. Islam is therefore a positive influence and this would generally show a different flavour as opposed to persons not adhering to the islamic code. Silat schools that prohibit non-islamic adherents have their reasons and this should be probed rather than slander. the Schools i have trained from do not prohibit any non islamic persons, however, we are here to promote understanding and foster good relations. as ive learnt through the Senaman Tua, the body has many ways of adapting and this must be filtered through into life situations as Silat is a life enhancing system. like my teacher Haji Mokhtar of Melaka says that you can change the technique if you want as it was designed by someone so it can be changed too. but its better to understand the method of the way it was invented and then to practice it. once you understand and perfect it you will understand the way of the warrior. i agree that change must be made if it cannot be adapted completely but there must be retention of the original charateristcs of the art. Silat has very high moral values and like my teacher said that through the bunga silat, this is how you should act always...anything you do must always be covered in beauty...although danger lurks behind that bunga lol just my little input...im still very empty in silat but i treasure the little i have and im honoured by it...

like i said, happy and proud to be here with you guys

[Jebat]

Saiful, you're a good man. Pleased to meet you....

Raden-Rahmat, yes:
Islam has been a good influence, is a good influence and will always be a good influence on most. It is just the rotten apples that ruin things for the rest of us. I hope, insyaallah, that the silent majority will finally start speaking out and control the rotten apples. At the moment it looks like that day is still far in the future. I'm affraid it will get worse first, before it will get better.

I love the expression 'danger lurking behind the bunga'.....
That made me laugh..... lol...

[Gajah Silat]

Rightly said Jebat. Perhaps the peaceful majority should not be so silent?

Anyway I've been trying to stay out of these types of discussions but I think it's important for people to be educated as to the difference of 'traditional' Islam, Wahhabism and Neo-Wahhabism.


Anyway I'll paraphrase Steven Schwartz(a Sufi) and have provided an interesting link.

The most dangerous and oppressive brand of Islamic extremism isn't found in Iran or Iraq, but in America's closest Arab ally, Saudi Arabia. In Arabia, the spiritual legacy of Muhammad ibn abd al-Wahhab, a radical--and, Schwartz says, heretical--seventeenth-century cleric, rose to prominence when his followers, the Wahhabis, forged an allegiance to the Sa'ud family. Together, Wahhabis and Sa'uds murdered and plundered their way to the Arabian throne. Ever since, Schwartz maintains, the Saudis have worked tirelessly to export their uniquely extreme vision of Islamic piety. U.S. alliance with the Saudi regime only furthers the cause of terrorism.

http://www.nationalreview.com/interrogatory/interrogatory111802.asp

Salam Hormat

[tellner]

There were people doing martial arts in Indonesia and Malaysia long before there were Muslims.
Two out of the three Great Cultures that had the most profound influence on Silat were India and China which are not Muslim.
There have always been Silat players who were not Muslim. The island of Bali comes to mind along with any number of Christians and Animists.

[Raden-Rahmat]

salam and goodday all
just a clarification that in no way did i mean that silat was an islamic franchise but merely that silat was used by the ppl to promote the islamic identity as was the approach used by Raden Rahmat and other Wali Songo when islam was brought to the archipelago. Today, id say id go with the legitimate islamic based sialt as the others have the "powers" obtained from "other" sources which are not acceptable since the element of deception with these "other" sources are from their signature traits which normally devaites man from his natural good nature. Reffering here to the always full blown retalliation option when encoutered by an opponent. Anger is never part of silat and this is why the bunga is paracticed in my opinion...to passify your being but being fatal simultaneously at your discretion....basically always maintaining the dignity humans should possess. Since Islam has purified Silat from negative element. I say that Silat has progressed and degressed, if thats a word, in both cases...but better for progress in the past 3 decades especially in the case of malaysia putting a hold on "other" powers Silats so that ppl can actually be safer in public from such evil...btw, in South Africa we are still focussed on the spiritual aspect but moreso on the pure traditional side being transmitted by Sufi lines...
so proud not being the wahabi ... i feel its a soul-less path...their acts define this feeling of mine

[Gajah Silat]

Salam Raden-Rahmat,

Don't worry, I understood what you were implying-silat and Islam as an expression of Indo-Malay culture.

I was trying to make a point that 'Muslim' or 'Islamic' should not be used as a generic term. Unfortunately, the extreme Wahhabist school of thought is the one that most Westerners believe to be Islam. It is also infiltrating and radicalising many of the traditional forms of Islam. This is becomming very apparent in Malaysia, and now Indonesia.

I had the misfortune of working with, and having to train a member of the Saudi royal family about ten years ago. Under the condescending pious veneer lurked a man who spent most of his 'oil money' on champagne, whiskey and call girls...even though he boasted about being a married family man. Good Wahhabi Muslim indeed:rolleyes: I'm afraid I have seen a lot of this behaviour and it's double standards.

Conversely, I have found with very little exception, the Muslims of the Malay world to be warm, welcoming and tolerant.

Please forgive my lapse into controversy, but I speak from experience rather than the distorions of the world media.

Salam Hormat

Martin

[Raden-Rahmat]

wslm so much for pure islam hey Gajah...why gajah btw...are u big lol
but its good to know your findings with the malays ...glad to know my nation upholds some good things. but like i say, silat as we know today mostly is governed or altered through the islamic reality. not to own like someone misunderstood but rather to adapt the muslim adherents to it so that foreign philosophy would not compromise their new found faith. The islamic way of thinking, if we considered the Sufi Way, then Silat had the best of alterations then. Saying this as Sufi aid always beautifies things, brings own the spiritual force in things, the natural aspect, the higher aspirations and safety security and well being of all. So there there shouldnt be any negativity about the transfer of Silat franchise to the Islamic Courts...it was only our way of suiting ourselves...and in no way am i being self-centred on behalf a nation...sounds ridiculous lol

[Gajah Silat]

LOL, I would rather say sturdy or perhaps solid:) More a gajah than a harimau anyway hehehe.

Anyway, I'll duck out of the religion debate now as I don't want to re-open any of those cans of worms.

peace to all:)

[Saiful Azraq]

Raden Rahmat
We share one same teacher! Most of my initial conceptions of adat and adab were gained from Silat Cekak Hanafi and Silat Melayu Keris Lok 9. However, much later, I took a closer look at my family's involvement in sufism and found that much of Melayu adat and adab (not all, though) were either very compatible with, or were influenced by Islam.

According to Al-Habib Syed Naquib Al-Attas in his talk on Islam in the Malay World, he elucidates on the impact that Islam has had on the personality and culture of the Melayu.

I have a simple article on these concepts here http://silat-melayu.blogspot.com/2006/10/adat-adab-in-silat.html . I'd appreciate some comments, good or otherwise.

I agree 100% with Haji Mokhtar's explanation that the Melayu were converted the same way the Prophet did his brethren, by aqidah first and syariat second. However, the whole objective of the ulama who came here were to eventually transform the Melayu mind to be become good Muslims, in akhlak and in law. This process was, unfortunately, halted, by external and immoral internal forces. Now, the Melayu are slowly losing their adat and adab (some say we've lost it completely) and as Jebat claims, becoming increasingly racist.

"Like my teacher Haji Mokhtar of Melaka says that you can change the technique if you want as it was designed by someone so it can be changed too. But its better to understand the method of the way it was invented and then to practice it. once you understand and perfect it you will understand the way of the warrior".
Wise words, my friend.

Jebat
Jebat, pleased to meet you too :)

Tellner
"There were people doing martial arts in Indonesia and Malaysia long before there were Muslims."

I agree.

"Two out of the three Great Cultures that had the most profound influence on Silat were India and China which are not Muslim."

I agree.

"There have always been Silat players who were not Muslim. The island of Bali comes to mind along with any number of Christians and Animists."

I agree.

[Raden-Rahmat]

according to the character of malays, even those who came here to south africa, had very distinct ways as compared to those of arab, indian or african origin. the way tasawwuf affected them was tremendous and as result of this, islam was projected much more effective. but back to the topic. actually this is the topic lol. as was said by tellner, that the history of silat is not with islam, quite correct, but as silat is today, it is from islam... im definitely not interested in a silat that would not compatible to my character and moral aspiriations of my religion.

Ive found much wisdom with Haji Mokhtar, i just need to obey him and be a better student. we always regret later. sad. Haji also readjusted my belief the islam has positively affected silat and everything that was in silat is either maintained or replaced by positive change and alteration. so nothing lost, just adjusted...remember islam came to address the belief and morality of humankind...not stop them from doing everything and restart new things...islam did not invent arabia...it adjusted into society and altered things that should be altered for human prosperity...im talkign too much

[Kertas]

salam/hello to all,

interesting dscussion...

i am in south africa, and i managed to travel a bit, and gathered some knowledge from silat via friends and colleagues i have met. my first encounter of Silat was when i was at a boarding school at the age of 15, and saw a student from Cocos Island practice Silat in the garden at later that 12am at night.. / morning...

he taught me my first steps in Silat, and the name of that silat is still unknown to me. the silat we practiced was only done late at night, in the dark. from there i learnt the importance of lankah. i only learnt silat, and no adat and adab attatched to it. my teacher promised to teach me the name of the silat only once i completed it, but he left the school before teaching me theentire art. all i know is that it had much to do with "Laam Alif"...

then my second learning came from Pukulan Melaka, a malaysian style to this day i have much respect for as i have learnt much of the adat and adab of Silat, which gives you a rough picture of what malay culture is. i have never been to malaysia, but i have lived with malaysian students in the middle east. this is where i learnt other forms of silat like RTD (indonesain - Radiasi Tenaga Dalam) which was more and only focused on breathing. it made me very tough though.

In Syria, i learnt Harimau from Abang Zain from Sumatera, and also Setia Hati from a teacher who hails from Surabaya, indonesia. i didnt however complete these styles. i have been exposed to gayong eman, Silat cekak and harimau berantai from malaysia.. and learnt mostly silat from these people.

that being said, i dont want to get into the political or religious debate. i know that i have been accepted as a student from many of the teachers just because i myself am a malay. some schools do not teach non-malays for their own reasoning and we just have to respect that. some would restrict it to muslims because the philosophyand spiritual teachings would not be grasped by the non-muslim.

i would like to ask a question.. seeing that the issue of Islam and its influence on the malays and eventually their culture (silat), has any of the arab fighting arts been taught to the malays?

when i read about the wars in the time of the Prophet SAW(peace be upon Him), it paints the picture that when the two opposing armies confronted each other, they would send their Best Warriors forward in a dual, and this would incite the Semangat on either side (depending on which warrior won the first fight), then another dual, and so forth until the armies decide to clash in battle...

does anyone know more about this?

[Gajah Silat]

Mas Kertas,

It appears we have some silat in common, Harimau Berantai. Although this is the system of the Othman family from Malaysia, the style is originally Indonesian. Is someone teaching it in SA?

I have read that Arab blade arts influenced some silat, along with Persian wrestling, gung fu, Indian fighting arts etc etc. However, I often wonder why so much effort goes into attributing foreign influences to silat. It's sometimes as if the Indonesians and Malays don't want to take credit for silat?:confused: Regardless of outside influence it is very much an Indo-Malay Martial art.

Perhaps some research into the history of the Arab peninsula would reveal more. Certainly the use of 'champions' is very entrenched in European culture. Perhaps European chivalry influenced the Arabs:D Historically the pre-Islamic Arabs also had a code of conduct and form of chivalry, after Islam this became absorbed to become Al Futtuwa and adab. Sadly, this seems to be something all cultures have lost or are losing.:(

[Kertas]

hmm.. so if arab chivalry was influenced by the europeans.. then how did that happen? i mean oil wasnt really much of use in that time

[Gajah Silat]

Well, oil is a completely different and complex issue and not suitable for the silat forum.

As to chivalry, during the crusades it was a two way process. The Europeans were also enormously influenced by the Arab codes of conduct and Saladin was very well respected as a wise and chivalrous leader. That time in history was not simply about war, there were periods of truce and peace, exchange of ideas, medicine and science. Do not also forget the moors in Spain had much cultural influence too.

Despite his fierce opposition to the Crusading powers, Saladin achieved a great reputation in Europe as a chivalrous knight. When his foe Richard the Lion Hearted, leader of the Christian armies, became sick, he sent his personal physician to heal him. There is no doubt that the Crusaders learned from him a great deal about chivalry.

BTW perhaps the writings of Habeeb Salloum may give you some answers Champions fought before both armies and battles often took place by appointment. As late as 1492 when the Christians captured Granada, the Muslim champions came out before the battle to challenge their Spanish counterparts.:)

[Kertas]

ok, thanx for that... i was referring to the euroopean influence on arab war tactics, chivalry in the time of the Prophet SAW. this was roughly 600 CE just estimating...

anyway, thax for that brief interlude of history there hehe..

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat Kertas,

You asked: "i would like to ask a question.. seeing that the issue of Islam and its influence on the malays and eventually their culture (silat), has any of the arab fighting arts been taught to the malays?"

There have been many cases where Arab culture directly influenced Melayu culture and silat is no exception. In the Melayu peninsula, we find quite a few silat styles claiming lineage or influences from 'Arab' (sometimes it means the Middle East) sources.

The most well-known is Silat Kalimah, which claims descent from Sheikh Abdullah Qumairi Al-Rifaie Al-Parsi (a.k.a Sheikh Tajred, the hidden sheikh), a Rifaie Sheikh who passed through Persia and reverted the citizens of Qalha (later Kedah) to Islam by way of its king Sultan Muzaffar Syah, nee Merong Mahawangsa in the 12th century.

This system is supposedly the core from which all modern Silat Kalimah and Silat Cekak styles derive from.

Read more of this history here http://silat-kalimah.com/e/ehistory.html

Another style with unconfirmed Arab origins is LianPadukan, who claims that when the Sahabi Saad Abi Waqqas came to China to proclaim Islam, one of his later followers brought along an Arab fist fighting art. This particular person is rumoured to be name Saiyidina Sema'un and his name is listed in the first line of the LianPadukan geneaology.

This system is supposedly the core from which all Buah Pukul (in Johor) styles derive from including: Buah Pukul Mersing, Lian Paduka, Gayang Lima, Silat Awang Daik, etc.

Read more of this history here http://silat-melayu.blogspot.com/2007/02/gayang-lima-lian-padukan.html

Two other instances occur in Kelantan and Terengganu, where several styles sharing the nom de plume of 'Silat Tongkat' claim to have been brought back by Hajis from Makkah who studied from 'Arabs' there. Several of these styles have been documented in SENI BELADIRI magazine and one especially was looked into by Tuan Ismail Tuan Soh, in "Pengenalan Sejarah dan Amalan Seni Silat Tongkat" in Sari 8 (academic journal) 1990: 49-59

Here is an extract from his abstract: "This essay discusses some aspects of Silat Tongkat as a form of martial art in this country. A comparison will be made with the conventional Malay silat to determine if Silat Tongkat is a variant of the conventional Malay silat or it is a silat which has its own identity. Generally, Silat Tongkat has three phases in its development namely the Bunga (flower) phase, the Butir (seed) phase, and the Isi (Flesh) phase. Each of these phases has some details in its techniques. For that matter, Silat Tongkat has its own complexity and identity and should be studied systematically independent of the conventional Malay silat."

A recent introduction is Seni Silat Gayongman in Terengganu which claims that less than 100 years ago, a Haji met a 'black man' in Makkah who taught him a staff fighting art which he taught amongst the Melayu when he returned. I don't know if this qualifies as an Arab art, but when observed, the Silat Tongkat and Silat Gayongman share similar traits, such as the open handed grips of the staff.

On a 'hidden history' note, Silat Sri Panglima Ulung in Terengganu claims that the Melayu sultanates had quite close relations with the Muslim Caliphates and as recent as the Uthmanis shared knowledge and skills with their Melayu brethren. Difficult to confirm, I'm afraid, but they believe it and that, at least proves influence.

Finally, my teacher, Guru Haji Jamaludin Shahadan of Silat Sendeng Haji Hamid claims that the Arabs brought sword fighting to the Nusantara region but was not picked up easily because of systematic differences. However, Silat Sendeng was quite compatible because of its emphasis on the compass points in footwork and striking and managed to adopt quite a bit of the methods.

Salam persilatan,

[Kertas]

Hormat Saiful Azraq, terima kasih banyak,or in the cape town malay we say baie tramakasie! Hehe.. Its very interesting to know what you have mentioned above. I have met arab brethren,and also visited some arab states,and i always wonder why the arab doesnt have pride in his own fighting art. In egypt and syria,the arabs love kickboxing,karate and even silat..but i havent yet heard a title or name for a purely arab martial art. Maybe it didnt survive? Or the arabs may have found more efficient ways in other styles hey. So back to the forum question on learning from a Malay or indo Guru.. Yes i have learnt from malay teachers who came to South Africa. Most South African malays are from Javanese origin or indonesian,but we lost the fighting arts over 200 years of indonesian blood landed on African soil. Some families stil have books,mostly religious ones, from their ancestors written in Jawi or arabic. Some keris and parangs were also preserved,but the families dont knw about silat. We do however use the word 'SLAT' without the 'i' which sounds similar to silat. And the word slat to us means to beat or hit,so there might have been a link i dnt knw. So silat was officialy demonstrated to the south african community only in 1995 or 96,i speak under correction,when the malaysian government brought a silat group from Melaka to show us our lost culture. Silat first became known as 'malaysian karate' amongst the local people. Now there are many people who have learnt silat abroad,some students went to indonesia etc.. And people myself and friends who learnt under our cikgu Hilmy who studied under Hj Mukhtar,who came to cape town to personaly teach us further. Although we dont have a stationary teacher in cape town,we do stil try to keep silat alive. A student once asked his teacher, "how can we learn from you when you aren't here?" he replied "if you cant benefit from me if i am far,you will not benefit from me when i am near".. So il leave that open for contemplation and interpretation. Salam hormat

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat Kertas,

Sama-sama dan terima kasih kembali. I don't know what happened to Arab fighting forms, except that I agree it is sad that it is on the verge of extinction, if it hasn't crossed it already. As for the word SILAT, never fear, I think the context remains similar. I once interviewed the President of the Philippine Pencak Silat Federation and he told me that 'SILAT' there means to trick, or bluff. He used it in conversation as, "Are you trying to silat me?" which was an interesting usage.

Congratulations on your efforts to keep the heritage alive. It's nice to know that someone is.

As for my brother Taker, I never answered your original question, so here goes:

1. All of my silat teachers regard themselves as Melayu.

2. In fact, all of the silat styles I studied came packaged together with a talk on good character. Some of them were simple moral lessons, others were very religious in nature and took up 80% of class time.

3. I don't know this. I live in Malaysia. However, a few of the arts I studid originally came from other areas in Nusantara. Sendeng for example, has changed much since it was introduced from Kalimantan to Sulawesi. Every state and district has its own variant of Sendeng.

Salam persilatan,

[Kertas]

1. Have you ever met the guru from the Malay Archipelago him/herself before/after studying the Silat style? (Or maybe the gurus themselves travel to your place to teach?) Or you didn't even know there's a Silat guru for your style?

i have answered this Q in above posts :)

2. Did the Silat class in your country also teaches the Adat and Adab of the Malays? Or did it only teach the blocks and punches without any Malay manners insights? If so, that's where the comments on "I'm going to go BSing" comes.

Yes, i have learnt much of the Adat and Adab of the malay silat. I also feel that it is important to understand the history, cultural practices and customs of the art you are studying in order to appreciate its value.


3. Does being far from the Malay Archipelago meant that the Silat had been changed or modified to suit the culture in your country? Does it stil preseve the actual technique that was created eons ago by the Malay warriors of old?

we have exactly the same syllabus of silat as it is in Melaka/ malaysia, and we have not edited or changed any of its content.

[Raden-Rahmat]

Salam To All

Somthing Ive Never Doubted Even Since You Can Find It In The Coffee Called Mocca-java...hehe...that Shoudl Explain The Influence Both Have On One Another...and In A Great Way The Sufi Ways Have Been Vigorously Transported.
Im Most Interested In The Influence On The Rifa'i Sheikh Since I Did A Research A While Back, But In My Persoanl Capacity, Regarding Sufi Influence And I Found That The Rifa'i Order Had The Most Profound Influence, Especially Initiating And Not Just Teaching The Adab Of Tasawwuf/sufism.
The Very Tenaga Dalam Which Has Become Mystery And Ilmu To Others Which Might Have Negative Connotations To Others Were Actually Thikr Used In The Rifa'i Thikr Sessions And Thikr Prescribed By The Sheikh To His Initiates For Whatever Reason...so Im Gona Read That Silat Kalimah Htread You Got There...tramakasie Mohd Nadzrin

[Raden-Rahmat]

hmmm now thats enlightening to my styagnant research...ill renew my research by your updates now. ive always thought that only the indonesians have had influence of the rifa'is through the practice of debus which apprently was a form of real fighting by pesilats but obviously through the baraka of the doa and athkaar performed, the fighters were not harmed but could thus gain experience in fighting thus becoming very skillfull and dnagerous. which draws to the conclusion that the palace could have warriors even though they have not fought. this explains why panglima Tok Ismail had overcome the Tuah renegade. personally i wanted to know this because the form of debus that reached cape town was actually more of a militant style, i mean silat...not really militant...but saying this im just detracting from the original sufi ceremony of the rifa'is where they would perform dangerous acts that would not harm them due to the recital of certain ayat or athkaar which the rifa'is seem to have mastery of. ive seen some pictures and studying this, i concluded that the rifa'i brand brought here had silat influence and this now reconfirms this becaus eof your input...i think i need to have contact with Silat Kalimah pesilats and even visit the place....i really wanted to do this 3 years back but then Allah directed me to marriage...so for now im just tied down but my intention is definitely renewed!!!! Allah help us achieve our goals ameen

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat Raden-Rahmat,

Your trip to Malaysia to meet Silat Kalimah could be fruitless. The problem is this: Sheikh Abdullah is claimed by to be a direct murid of Al Ghaus Al Muhyiddin Sheikh Abdul Qadir Al-Jailani [1]. After Sheikh Abdullah came to Kedah in the 12th centure, his progeny took office as Muftis and religious teachers around Kedah and Pattani [2].

It is about this time that the military and sufi practises split. The martial component was taught to the royal household and gained a separate royal lineage while Tariqat Rifaiyyah was passed down through another line. They have remained separate ever since.

The current holder of the Rifaiyyah lineage is Ustaz Aswadi bin Yah al-Qubrawi al-Kelantani al-Kawi [3], who received it from his mursyid in Acheh. During a recent conference with Silat Kalimah, he proposed a reunison, but after being apart for so long, most of the masters politely declined.

I don't know the real reasons for this, but one possible explanation is that the late Mahaguru Yahya Said had already reconfirmed the spiritual lineage of Silat Kalimah through another tariqah branch in the 1970s (which also realises a relationship to Sheikh Muhyiddin), though not many Kalimah pesilat know of this event. [4]

However, there is another line you might want to look into, which is Silat Gelombang in Acheh, whose martial movements are unnerringly similar to Silat Kalimah and also wear the same white garb [5]. I don't know if they wear it for the same reason Silat Kalimah wears it, which siginifies the white swath at birth, the white jubah of salat, the white ihram of hajj and the white kafan of death.

Salam persilatan,

[1] Statement made by Allahyarham Sheikh Mahmud Nasri al-Osmani, of the Pondok Lanai religious school to researcher Allahyarham Haji Wan Muhammad Shaghir Abdullah, a researcher into Pattani (Fatani) religious manuscripts, who was the descendant of the famed Uthmani-era alim, Sheikh Ahmad bin Muhammad Zain al-Fatani
[2] As recorded in local history
[3] Confirmed by guru Mazlan Man of Silat Kalam Utama, who attended the conference
[4] Which happened in Perak during a royal audience
[5] As reported personally by O'ong Maryono to guro Omar Hakim of Silat Kuntau Tekpi USA

[Raden-Rahmat]

thats what a malaysian guy told me when it comes to things that dont need to be and issue...just regard it as remeh and carry on. sometimes i wonder why did something this good have to succomb to something so weak/sad?
My question...waht happended to leadership?? Why the decline? what were the outlining factors preferring segregation from the spiritual essence of islam as opposed to just being physical, especially when this was the foundation of this organisation??? really it begs to know what could be so bad by reuniting?
but 1 factor that allures me to find out more about this and especially the Acheh branch, is the fact that you say the leader was a direct murid of Sultan al Awliya Sh Abdul Qadir (qaddasallahu sirrahu RA). This means this Silat has real buah in it and feels they must must discard it when the opportunity comes to reclaim???

What leadership is this??? Unless the membership now subscribes to the Wahhabi way of thinking??? it would be a bad turn of events if this is the case.

how do you think i could get in contact with the Acheh school??? email??? mobile number??? I would like to pursue the matter as research into the tariqah instead of its politics...

tramakasi Nadzrin...you such a help...i think im gona think up some more things for new threads lol...it just gets better

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat Raden-Rahmat,

The affairs of tariqah, once deemed mainstream by the Melayu, have moved into the background, and what has moved into the foreground is ethnocentrism. I am ashamed to say that there are many people here who regard themselves as Melayu first and Muslims second, if ever. This is my general answer.

As for Silat Kalimah, I am of husnul zhon. I know many of them, myself being a pesilat Kalimah as well, although I studied 'off the beaten track' (I know that my teacher, at least, has silsilah). I am of the opinion that they know their affairs better. As far as I can tell, there was no spiritual segregation, only that the masters who inherited Silat Kalimah were not given authority to pass on the tariqah.

Based on my research and insights, there was no particular system to this silat until only very recently. Thus, it is unknown if Sheikh Tajred had any intention of it being taught outside of the royal household (Please refer to Silat Kalimah history) or it being a subject of study the way we devote ourselves to silat nowadays.

The claim that Sheikh Tajred was a disciple of Sheikh Muhyiddin so far comes from only one person, and his students maintain that claim to this day. The Silat Kalimah I received contained no remnants of Rifaie awrad. It only came as a purely physical method, but with a lot of discussions on haqiqah passed along, depending on the religious background and knowledge of the teacher you studied under.

As for Wahabbi influence, I do not think there are any for the time being. On the contrary, many styles go in the extreme opposite. I hope I haven't disappointed your search for a link.

If you need to contact Silat Gelombang, I suggest you get in touch with Pak O'ong Maryono of the Thailand Pencak Silat Federation through his website http://www.kpsnusantara.com. He might be able to get you a recent phone number or contact.

Salam persilatan,

[Raden-Rahmat]

i was hoping my assumptions would be refuted. but its true as well that the spiritual successor cannot be wrecklessly passed to anyone and perhaps the shaikh decided to pass ti to those who have the spirit for it...like Guru Azlan says..."Semangat". that drive, that energy!
lets for now regard it as just a matter of priority. but it would have been good to reunite since muslims should not be specialised in 1 thing but always good to specialise in many things and since being able to fight is required alongwith being spiritually alive is required, these 2 serve as good products for a wholesome being for further development and social security...just my view but i will pursue the connection

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat,

As I understand it, Sheikh Tajred passed along the tariqah to Sheikh Shahib Ahmad Dabab, and since it was well known that Sheikh Tajred's progeny long served as the religious consultants of the palace, there is a strong possibility that one these sheikhs, Sheikh Abdullah As Sumbawi Ar Rifa'i was the Datuk Seroja Imam mentioned in this paragraph in an old manuscipt:

“Arakian maka menyerulah akan Datuk Seroja Imam kepada sekalian hamba rakyat agar memperkuat jiwa dengan menghidupkan malam dan berpuasa di siangnya. Tatkala datanglah bala tentera dari Acheh, gegak gempita bunyinya beralun sorak tiada taranya, berdirilah akan Datuk Seroja Imam, diam qiam bagaikan sembahyang, bukan diam tidak bergerak, itulah gerak dalam berjuang, gerak hidup bagaikan solat, memukul cepat bagaikan kilat, itulah gerak fisabilillah”

Translation:
"And so it happened that Datuk Seroja Imam called to all the citizens to strengthen their hearts by enlivening the night (with salat) and fasting in the day. And when the armies came from Acheh, the sounds of uncomparable frenzy accompanied them, and so stood Datuk Seroja Imam, at qiam as in prayer, but not quiet and unmoving, verily it is the motion of war, alive with movement as if in salat, striking quick as lightning, that is the movement in the path of Allah."

Therefore, it is very possible that for a very long time after that, silat was still with the sheikhs, and the possibility that it was spread to Acheh afterwards also makes sense.

However, as I understand it, Rifaiyyah places little importance on specific combat methods and will accept any style as long as it's of military importance. Thus, it could be that somewhere along the line, the methods in Malaysia changed and only Silat Kalimah and its derivatives managed to preserve the physical aspect.

Salam persilatan,